NationStates Jolt Archive

Anyone who realizes how dangerous the internet is has a battle with spyware and the invasive programs that are installed on one's computer. Its merciless. The gov't (the US, the EU, and their allies) should take action, but some people say that they are protected by free speech.

Now if someone came up to you on the street and said, "Buy a GM!" that would be free speech. If someone built a huge billboard on you front lawn that said "Buy a GM!" and then went out of their way to stop you from taking it down, that would be invasive. One's computer is one's property, and everyone has the right to control what goes on it or not.

agreed. I think my brother used my computer today...I never have problems with spyware, but I've spent all night trying to get rid of it. It makes me angry :evil:

agreed. I think my brother used my computer today...I never have problems with spyware, but I've spent all night trying to get rid of it. It makes me angry :evil:

My family computer is infested with it. I get this thing where pop-ups appear in the middle of games, while I'm not even online (we have one of those always open connections). I got adware to delete it, but adware can't delete the files while the program's running, and I can't figure how to turn the program off! Its a monster!

www.adaware.com
http://www.download.com/3302-2144_4-10247783.html

Adaware is a good anti-spyware program, but it costs a little money. I use it.
I've heard good things about Bazooka, but I haven't tried it.

There is also Spybot - Search & Destroy (http://www.download.com/Spybot-Search-Destroy/3000-8022-10289035.html?tag=lst-0-3), which is what I use which is very good.

since when does adaware cost..?

you turn it off by pressing ctrl+alt+delete
see if that helps

www.adaware.com
http://www.download.com/3302-2144_4-10247783.html

Adaware is a good anti-spyware program, but it costs a little money. I use it.
I've heard good things about Bazooka, but I haven't tried it.I've used Bazooka for six months and it took care of everything immediately and I haven't had a problem since then.

You know what is really pissing me off lately.

I get these Instant messages for porno webcam every 5 minutes and it makes me so angry.

I know I had hose to, i got pissed and thretend to leave my ISP lol

You could try spy sweeper instead.

You should also read EULAs more carefully. most of them have a small passage about 'third party programs' alos known as spyware

I have been getting a lot more spam lately--maybe someone's trying to drop a virus on me.

just ignore it and don't click on any links

Oh trust me--I haven't. It's just aggravating.

ya I know what you mean

Yeah, I have one program I cant get rid of, and now I have to scan two times a day with Norton, AdAware, Spybot, AVG and RegScan, just to keep from being overrun by the differnt programs...

dude that sucks big time, ive got Norton and its done good for me so far

Well, the thing is that Norton doesnt scan your systems registery (All the little lines of code that make things go) so there could be a line there that re-downloads everything you delete.
So I got through with RegClean and AdAware to kill the registery and any low-level (pop-up making) adware, then go back, reset my homepage from www.ExtremegerbilXXX.com to Google and have a nice day...

so like everything i delete im not really getting rid of it?

Depends on whethere its edited your registery. It may or may not come back.
AdAware checks as well, I usualy have 16 differnt entries that come up...

how do i knowq if its ediot in my registry or not?

Well, you could look on Norton and then do a line by line search, I think theres something like 12 billion lines :)

Other than manual checking, theres only running a scan with something.

uhh 12 Billion??!! I'll pass

Uhh,Im not sure what your trying to ask, but use Ad-Aware, or Spybot 1.3

Im a (nearly certified) computer tech, so I see all of this all the time.

Spybot 1.3 and Ad-Aware are free, and easy to use.

You should also have an anti-virus program running at all times.

I personally recommend AVG 7.0

Its easy to use..works great....and FREE.

as for your registry...dont fool with it if you dont know what your doing.
You may delete a critical file....and have to re-install your operating system.
Try "Window Washer".
Its not free, but you can usually get a 30 day trial of it.

I run those three often, and I have few problems.

Also...update your Windows from Microsoft.
(yes....I know...Microsoft IS the devil....but if your using windows, better safe than sorry.)

since when does adaware cost..?

I DLed the free version, which I couldn't get to do anything more than simply scan my computer (ie, remove the spyware), unless I paid for it. So I paid for it.

Maybe someday people will switch to a decent browser (http://www.mozilla.org) that isn't riddled with security holes. Of course, you can still download programs full of viruses, but it's your own stupid fault if you don't run a virus checker on anything you download...

You know those funny laws that we look back on many years later and wonder what the hell they were thinking? Odds are, this would become one. People, SpyWare comes from people who are too lazy or stupid to truely learn how a computer works - they think Windows is the only think that works, they think that Internet Explorer is "The Internet", and they turn into gorillas when something stops working - not because they have any right too, but because they don't want to fix it, and automagically expect to government to do something about it. Idiots and fools, really. The government is there to keep things running smoothly - it should be a fine-tuned machine, running on a small set of broad-range ideas, not some stupid hackish electronic peice of junk, changing to fit everyone's ideals, while satisfying no one. What I'm really saying is this - shut up.

People, SpyWare comes from people who are too lazy or stupid to truely learn how a computer works - they think Windows is the only think that works, they think that Internet Explorer is "The Internet", and they turn into gorillas when something stops working - not because they have any right too, but because they don't want to fix it, and automagically expect to government to do something about it.

Spyware doesn't just affect the people careless enough to be infected by it - some spyware send out lots of spam for example. This means I get affected even though my computers are clean (they've never even had a virus).

use mozilla as your browser. It stops *most* (98%) of it. I have to agree with this topic too, Free speech my arse.

TAG


I need to download that adware shit when I get home. The fucking pop-ups on my computer are unreal. I bet I hold a world record for most pop-ups in an hour.

Use both AdAware and Spybots S&D, mentioned on the previous page.

I have the free version of AdAware and AFAIK it can remove malware.

Some notorious spyware containing programs are Kazaa, Comet Cursors, and several IM progs.

Other tips:
-use an alternative browser (why not an alternative OS :p )
-don't check every box when installing programs or click every pop-up in your browser. This is how you get Gator.

Spyware is freedom speech becasue you write it. :twisted:

TAG


I need to download that adware shit when I get home. The f--- pop-ups on my computer are unreal. I bet I hold a world record for most pop-ups in an hour.

Stop using IE. Use a browser where you can turn off unrequested windows.

Stop using IE. Use a browser where you can turn off unrequested windows.

Maybe we should start a thread promoting alternative browsers - it'll make a change to all those thread promoting alternative political beliefs.

There's no reason to continue to use IE. Alternative browsers such as Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org) Firefox render correctly all pages that IE does, render correctly pages using any CSS invented in the last five years (like the CSS Zen Garden) - IE is years behind here - don't have the secutiry vulnerabilites, are more configurable, run faster... ...and are really easy to install.

Stop using IE. Use a browser where you can turn off unrequested windows.

Maybe we should start a thread promoting alternative browsers - it'll make a change to all those thread promoting alternative political beliefs.

There's no reason to continue to use IE. Alternative browsers such as Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org) Firefox render correctly all pages that IE does, render correctly pages using any CSS invented in the last five years (like the CSS Zen Garden) - IE is years behind here - don't have the secutiry vulnerabilites, are more configurable, run faster... ...and are really easy to install.

Aye. I highly recommend mozilla.

In the US you have the right to free speech but you lose it if what you're doing impeads on someone's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Hah! I have a mac, & have never gotten *any* type of virus or whatever... Mac = good. Safari = good too.

Install a pop-up window blocker too and a firewall (for other reasons).
Windows XP does have a built-in firewall.

This one does the job for IE users - http://www.endpopups.com.

Thank goodness for the invention of ad-aware.

To download it, go to www.ad-aware.com

In conjunction with Mozilla and Norton Antivirus, my computer is now a police state.

Hah! I have a mac, & have never gotten *any* type of virus or whatever... Mac = good. Safari = good too.

Safari?! But that's based on the KHTML layout engine! :P

Hah! I have a mac, & have never gotten *any* type of virus or whatever... Mac = good. Safari = good too.

Don't get too cocky about your Mac not being infected with Spyware.

Here's the only tool I know exists for Macs.
http://macscan.securemac.com/

I have Aluria and McAfee to get rid of the spyware on my computer.

Ad-aware and Spybot S&D here.

One other thing about Internet Explorer - Microsoft annoucned a few months back that there would be no further updates after SP2, as 'future development of the browser requires further operating system integration' (which is obvious nonsense...) - this means in future you'll only be able to update IE by updating Windows, so when a new version of Windows comes out, IE updates will only be available for it - tough luck for everyone using old versions.

One other thing about Internet Explorer - Microsoft annoucned a few months back that there would be no further updates after SP2, as 'future development of the browser requires further operating system integration' (which is obvious nonsense...) - this means in future you'll only be able to update IE by updating Windows, so when a new version of Windows comes out, IE updates will only be available for it - tough luck for everyone using old versions.

Not much different from now really as from Windows 98, you run a version of IE in Windows regardless.

Anyone who realizes how dangerous the internet is has a battle with spyware and the invasive programs that are installed on one's computer. Its merciless. The gov't (the US, the EU, and their allies) should take action, but some people say that they are protected by free speech.

Now if someone came up to you on the street and said, "Buy a GM!" that would be free speech. If someone built a huge billboard on you front lawn that said "Buy a GM!" and then went out of their way to stop you from taking it down, that would be invasive. One's computer is one's property, and everyone has the right to control what goes on it or not.

I shall assume you are running a version of Microsoft Windows on your computer. Your options are to obtain a program such as "Spybot Search and destroy" (url is www.safer-networking.org I think) or use a different operating system, the choice of which would depend on your computing needs.

Hah! I have a mac, & have never gotten *any* type of virus or whatever... Mac = good. Safari = good too.

Don't get too cocky about your Mac not being infected with Spyware.

Here's the only tool I know exists for Macs.
http://macscan.securemac.com/

Replacing your PC with a Mac could be expensive too. If one wanted an option like that it would be much simpler to just replace the software, e.g. get a different OS, like Linux or one of the many others.

There are several issues here.

First let us examine the way that malware gets onto your system.

You may think that that nifty peer to peer music download program is the dogs gnads but chances are that it will contain a program that monitors not only your browsing history but also will up load details of your identity as contained on your PC. This is used for 'marketing' purposes. Is there a warning in the EULA? Sometimes.

The more insidious and nasty way is via websites. Not to get too technical but when you visit a web site you allow software to run on your machine. Well the website can effectively download a program onto your PC with you not having any idea that it is happening. Oh...your firewall will do diddly squat to stop it.

As far as I am concerned this is unauthorised access to my system. Sadly the counter arguement is that as I accessed the site I give approval for software to be allowed to run on my computer. Chances are that cookies will get mentioned (notwithstanding that cookies are not really programmes but are files) and any non techy will soon get lost in the ensuing arguement.

What can be done? Well lets face some facts here...until other means for marketing bots to justify their existance come along malware will not go. There will be no laws to stop this crap.

Why?

Because home users are the most effected and home users generally are not techincal enough to understand the ins and out of this subject. Companies don't really care as this is under the radar stuff.

What to do? Well my adivce is to ditch IE and use either Mozilla or Opera.

Adaware and Spy Bot is usefull. Run the both in conjuntion. If you are techy you might want to investigate proxies as well.

A healthy dose of paranioa is usefull.

We have a trojan and no matter what we do it will NOT leave. I think it's the actual anti-virus program that gave it to us. It's the only culprit I can think of because for one thing, it's not getting rid of it, everytime a thing pops up saying that this thing exists, it says to use the program, and the trojan only came after we downloaded the program. We have other anti-virus programs so it can't be that we only just discovered it after we downloaded it....or could it? I really don't know. Maybe someone have advice??

just in case some person out there is wondering what program I'm talking about it's AVG.

FIREWALL for Windows PCs: http://www.zonelabs.com/

This will help stop illegal access to your computer.

We have a trojan and no matter what we do it will NOT leave. I think it's the actual anti-virus program that gave it to us. It's the only culprit I can think of because for one thing, it's not getting rid of it, everytime a thing pops up saying that this thing exists, it says to use the program, and the trojan only came after we downloaded the program. We have other anti-virus programs so it can't be that we only just discovered it after we downloaded it....or could it? I really don't know. Maybe someone have advice??

just in case some person out there is wondering what program I'm talking about it's AVG.

Well I use AVG and its a decent product. May I suggest you go to htt://www.auditmypc.com and follow the instructions if it finds any trojans....

It will give you details on how to delete the various registry keys that are associated with that trojan.

If you still have a problem I'd suggest that you talk to AVG tech suppport....in fact you might want to do that anyway....and still audit your PC.

One thing you do want though is a firewall if you have a trojan. Even if you don't have a trojan you still want to get yourself a firewall.

We have a trojan and no matter what we do it will NOT leave. I think it's the actual anti-virus program that gave it to us. It's the only culprit I can think of because for one thing, it's not getting rid of it, everytime a thing pops up saying that this thing exists, it says to use the program, and the trojan only came after we downloaded the program. We have other anti-virus programs so it can't be that we only just discovered it after we downloaded it....or could it? I really don't know. Maybe someone have advice??

just in case some person out there is wondering what program I'm talking about it's AVG.

Sometimes virus scanners crop up with false alarms, so your VS finds a virus/trojan/etc there is chance it is a case of a false alarm. Saying that, a VS can detect a virus but not remove it in some cases.

I have Zone Alarm on my computer as a firewall and I also use adaware, both together seem to keep things under control, it does help that I am the only person to use this laptop so I can control what happens- most of the time. The only time I let my son usr my laptop I got infested with horrid nasty stuff, I couldn't change back my home page and loads of other horrid things happened, adaware didn't do anything anything and it took me days of dithering whether to download a small program found on the help section of the homepage that said it would remove the software from my computer, well eventually I did and it did remove it, (phew!)

I'll never let him use my laptop again. :twisted:

I have Zone Alarm on my computer as a firewall and I also use adaware, both together seem to keep things under control, it does help that I am the only person to use this laptop so I can control what happens- most of the time. The only time I let my son usr my laptop I got infested with horrid nasty stuff, I couldn't change back my home page and loads of other horrid things happened, adaware didn't do anything anything and it took me days of dithering whether to download a small program found on the help section of the homepage that said it would remove the software from my computer, well eventually I did and it did remove it, (phew!)

I'll never let him use my laptop again. :twisted:

FIREWALL for Windows PCs: http://www.zonelabs.com/

This will help stop illegal access to your computer.

good product....of course you'll be wanting a NATS router as well....

This Mozilla Firefox shit is badass!!

This Mozilla Firefox shit is badass!!

Bravo! :)

I love search and destroy..I always Imagine it as some type of conflict..sort of like the Current one In the middle east. The search and destroy are american tanks and the spy where are the old Soviet tanks Saddam tried ta use :)

This Mozilla Firefox shit is badass!!

:? That means you like it, right?

There are several issues here.

First let us examine the way that malware gets onto your system.

You may think that that nifty peer to peer music download program is the dogs gnads but chances are that it will contain a program that monitors not only your browsing history but also will up load details of your identity as contained on your PC. This is used for 'marketing' purposes. Is there a warning in the EULA? Sometimes.

The more insidious and nasty way is via websites. Not to get too technical but when you visit a web site you allow software to run on your machine. Well the website can effectively download a program onto your PC with you not having any idea that it is happening. Oh...your firewall will do diddly squat to stop it.

As far as I am concerned this is unauthorised access to my system. Sadly the counter arguement is that as I accessed the site I give approval for software to be allowed to run on my computer. Chances are that cookies will get mentioned (notwithstanding that cookies are not really programmes but are files) and any non techy will soon get lost in the ensuing arguement.

What can be done? Well lets face some facts here...until other means for marketing bots to justify their existance come along malware will not go. There will be no laws to stop this crap.

Why?

Because home users are the most effected and home users generally are not techincal enough to understand the ins and out of this subject. Companies don't really care as this is under the radar stuff.

What to do? Well my adivce is to ditch IE and use either Mozilla or Opera.

Adaware and Spy Bot is usefull. Run the both in conjuntion. If you are techy you might want to investigate proxies as well.

A healthy dose of paranioa is usefull.

If you visit someone's house or retail outlet, they can tell you to buy a GM and there's nothing you can do about it. If they pin you down, drug you, and brainwash you into buying a GM, thats criminal at the very least. The website can do whatever it wants to my computer and I won't get upset enough to call suit--as long as its an isolated incident. If the malware from the site remains on my computer after I leave the website, that's an invasion of privacy.

Furthermore, sometimes I am brought to a website against my best wishes (these are very dangerous) because of browser hijacks or even by mistyping a URL. Since when are kiddnapping, theft, vandalism, and trustpassing legal? becuase their all being commited here.

Spyware should be illegal, it is being installed on your computer without your consent, which is hacking last time I checked.

Spyware should be illegal, it is being installed on your computer without your consent, which is hacking last time I checked.

yeah but they have user agreements they claim you accepted. they are very sneaky, alot of tech support won't even help people delete spyware for fear of being sued by these companies, they'll tell you where to get antispyware programs but they won't do it themselves. also if you do to spywares home websites they often have uninstallers that at the very least don't work, but it can help backdoor a user agreement if you download them. they are really really evil.

If you visit someone's house or retail outlet, they can tell you to buy a GM and there's nothing you can do about it. If they pin you down, drug you, and brainwash you into buying a GM, thats criminal at the very least. The website can do whatever it wants to my computer and I won't get upset enough to call suit--as long as its an isolated incident. If the malware from the site remains on my computer after I leave the website, that's an invasion of privacy.

Furthermore, sometimes I am brought to a website against my best wishes (these are very dangerous) because of browser hijacks or even by mistyping a URL. Since when are kiddnapping, theft, vandalism, and trustpassing legal? becuase their all being commited here.

I agree with you. The only things that a web site should be sending to your machine 'without you knowing about it' are session cookies. Anything else you ought to be asked if you want 'that' to happen.

Fact is though that this will never happen.

If you visit someone's house or retail outlet, they can tell you to buy a GM and there's nothing you can do about it. If they pin you down, drug you, and brainwash you into buying a GM, thats criminal at the very least. The website can do whatever it wants to my computer and I won't get upset enough to call suit--as long as its an isolated incident. If the malware from the site remains on my computer after I leave the website, that's an invasion of privacy.

Furthermore, sometimes I am brought to a website against my best wishes (these are very dangerous) because of browser hijacks or even by mistyping a URL. Since when are kiddnapping, theft, vandalism, and trustpassing legal? becuase their all being commited here.

I agree with you. The only things that a web site should be sending to your machine 'without you knowing about it' are session cookies. Anything else you ought to be asked if you want 'that' to happen.

Fact is though that this will never happen.

I wouldnt be so sure.
The internet, and television are becoming one media.
Soon, your home PC will be your television, your stereo, and your telephone.
So advertising will be much more regulated than it is now, on the internet.

If you visit someone's house or retail outlet, they can tell you to buy a GM and there's nothing you can do about it. If they pin you down, drug you, and brainwash you into buying a GM, thats criminal at the very least. The website can do whatever it wants to my computer and I won't get upset enough to call suit--as long as its an isolated incident. If the malware from the site remains on my computer after I leave the website, that's an invasion of privacy.

Furthermore, sometimes I am brought to a website against my best wishes (these are very dangerous) because of browser hijacks or even by mistyping a URL. Since when are kiddnapping, theft, vandalism, and trustpassing legal? becuase their all being commited here.

I agree with you. The only things that a web site should be sending to your machine 'without you knowing about it' are session cookies. Anything else you ought to be asked if you want 'that' to happen.

Fact is though that this will never happen.

I wouldnt be so sure.
The internet, and television are becoming one media.
Soon, your home PC will be your television, your stereo, and your telephone.
So advertising will be much more regulated than it is now, on the internet.

sorry mate....you've lost me.....not sure about what?

I am fully aware of the integration of marketing into these technologies...but until the death of dial up I see no real impact....

also the fact that the laws governing TV and Radio are different from those deal ing with the net...unless you saying that broadcast laws will be getting laxer.....that would not be a good thing insofar as privacy is concerned....

If you visit someone's house or retail outlet, they can tell you to buy a GM and there's nothing you can do about it. If they pin you down, drug you, and brainwash you into buying a GM, thats criminal at the very least. The website can do whatever it wants to my computer and I won't get upset enough to call suit--as long as its an isolated incident. If the malware from the site remains on my computer after I leave the website, that's an invasion of privacy.

Furthermore, sometimes I am brought to a website against my best wishes (these are very dangerous) because of browser hijacks or even by mistyping a URL. Since when are kiddnapping, theft, vandalism, and trustpassing legal? becuase their all being commited here.

I agree with you. The only things that a web site should be sending to your machine 'without you knowing about it' are session cookies. Anything else you ought to be asked if you want 'that' to happen.

Fact is though that this will never happen.

I wouldnt be so sure.
The internet, and television are becoming one media.
Soon, your home PC will be your television, your stereo, and your telephone.
So advertising will be much more regulated than it is now, on the internet.

sorry mate....you've lost me.....not sure about what?

I am fully aware of the integration of marketing into these technologies...but until the death of dial up I see no real impact....

also the fact that the laws governing TV and Radio are different from those deal ing with the net...unless you saying that broadcast laws will be getting laxer.....that would not be a good thing insofar as privacy is concerned....

No, I think that Broadcasting laws are going to change eventually to encompass a new media.

If you look at the next few years, your going to be able to watch your televison shows, broadcasted live, on the internet.
So..the PC will take the place of your televison.

Thus, advertising laws will change to encompass this.

No, I think that Broadcasting laws are going to change eventually to encompass a new media.

If you look at the next few years, your going to be able to watch your televison shows, broadcasted live, on the internet.
So..the PC will take the place of your televison.

Thus, advertising laws will change to encompass this.

mmmmm no. I do not think that there will such an uptake. It requires big bandwidth.....the world still runs on 56k

No, I think that Broadcasting laws are going to change eventually to encompass a new media.

If you look at the next few years, your going to be able to watch your televison shows, broadcasted live, on the internet.
So..the PC will take the place of your televison.

Thus, advertising laws will change to encompass this.

mmmmm no. I do not think that there will such an uptake. It requires big bandwidth.....the world still runs on 56k

Say what?

56k Modems are dinosaurs.

Broadband is usually nearly the same price, and available in almost as many areas.

You ever try to download any of todays software with dial up?
Almost pointless.

In less than a decade, if not sooner, 56k dial up will be a thing of the past.

No, I think that Broadcasting laws are going to change eventually to encompass a new media.

If you look at the next few years, your going to be able to watch your televison shows, broadcasted live, on the internet.
So..the PC will take the place of your televison.

Thus, advertising laws will change to encompass this.

mmmmm no. I do not think that there will such an uptake. It requires big bandwidth.....the world still runs on 56k

Say what?

56k Modems are dinosaurs.

Broadband is usually nearly the same price, and available in almost as many areas.

You ever try to download any of todays software with dial up?
Almost pointless.

In less than a decade, if not sooner, 56k dial up will be a thing of the past.

I run on 56k....mainly coz I travel a lot. (for s/w dl's I do that at work and burn a cd)

and 512k ain't that brilliant either is it?

Broadband is not readily available globally.

Hell most places don't even have computers.....

I do understand though what you are saying though....given time it might be the case....but I don't think we will have the PC as it is now though....not a box per se as we have nowadays.....

perhaps integrated into a plasma or digital tv? I really don't know.....

This Mozilla Firefox shit is badass!!

Bravo! :)

Secundo
This Mozilla Firefox shit is badass!!

:? That means you like it, right?

I'll just assume your first language isn't English, and that you are unfamiliar with "slang".

Yes, that means he or she likes it.

No, I think that Broadcasting laws are going to change eventually to encompass a new media.

If you look at the next few years, your going to be able to watch your televison shows, broadcasted live, on the internet.
So..the PC will take the place of your televison.

Thus, advertising laws will change to encompass this.

mmmmm no. I do not think that there will such an uptake. It requires big bandwidth.....the world still runs on 56k

Say what?

56k Modems are dinosaurs.

Broadband is usually nearly the same price, and available in almost as many areas.

You ever try to download any of todays software with dial up?
Almost pointless.

In less than a decade, if not sooner, 56k dial up will be a thing of the past.

Still stuck in the Internet middle ages (56k age). :(

No, I think that Broadcasting laws are going to change eventually to encompass a new media.

If you look at the next few years, your going to be able to watch your televison shows, broadcasted live, on the internet.
So..the PC will take the place of your televison.

Thus, advertising laws will change to encompass this.

mmmmm no. I do not think that there will such an uptake. It requires big bandwidth.....the world still runs on 56k

Say what?

56k Modems are dinosaurs.

Broadband is usually nearly the same price, and available in almost as many areas.

You ever try to download any of todays software with dial up?
Almost pointless.

In less than a decade, if not sooner, 56k dial up will be a thing of the past.

Still stuck in the Internet middle ages (56k age). :(

I know that feeling....

still be happy you don't run on .x25! LOL