NationStates Jolt Archive

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 5:01 p.m. ET June 17, 2004WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged on Thursday he ordered the detention of an Iraqi terrorism suspect who was held for more than seven months without notifying the International Committee of the Red Cross but said the man was “treated humanely.”



Rumsfeld, during a Pentagon briefing, said, “I was requested by the director of central intelligence (George Tenet) to take custody of an Iraqi national who was believed to be a high-ranking member of Ansar al-Islam,” which the United States has called a terrorist organization.

“And we did so. We were asked to not immediately register the individual (with the Red Cross). And we did that,” Rumsfeld said.

He did not explain the reasons for the actions, but added, “We are in the process of registering” the man, whom he did not identify, with the Red Cross.

“He has been treated humanely. There’s no implication of any problem. He was not at Abu Ghraib. He is not there now. He has never been there to my knowledge,” Rumsfeld added, referring to the prison on the outskirts of Baghdad where U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners.

Violations of Geneva Conventions
Failure to issue the man an identification number and failure to notify the Red Cross are violations of the Geneva Conventions on treatment of prisoners of war.

Earlier, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said that Rumsfeld ordered the Joint Chiefs of Staff to have the prisoner secretly detained on the day last October.


The secret detention was first reported Wednesday by NBC News' Pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski.

The Bush administration has argued that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to suspected terrorists who do not follow the conventions themselves. But Rumsfeld and other administration officials have said the Geneva Conventions applied to all U.S. military activities in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion.

The Pentagon’s admission came a day before a human rights group released a report accusing the United States of keeping an unknown number of terrorist suspects in secret lockups around the world.

A report from New York-based Human Rights First said the Bush administration was violating U.S. and international law by refusing to notify all detainees’ families or give names, numbers and locations of all terror war prisoners to the Red Cross.

None of that was done in the Iraqi detainee’s case, Whitman said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5232981/

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand

yes they are so inconvenient, no torture, no secret detentions, no murder of prisoners, no intentional targetting of civilians, no reprisals against civilians. how is a superpower supposed to occupy a foriegn country with silly restrictions like that.

I'm just saying that this is a new century, new warfare tactics, and new enemies to fight. This is a whole new world we're living in. Not the same two armies beat the living shit out of each other.

We're fighting people on the streets
We're fighting people on the internet
We're fighting people in the soil of Afghanistan
We're fighting people in the soil of America
We;re fighting these SAME EXACT PEOPLE in Europe and Asia!

Now really. You can't play with the same rules of WW1 in a war like this.

I'm just saying that this is a new century, new warfare tactics, and new enemies to fight. This is a whole new world we're living in. Not the same two armies beat the living shit out of each other.

We're fighting people on the streets
We're fighting people on the internet
We're fighting people in the soil of Afghanistan
We're fighting people in the soil of America
We;re fighting these SAME EXACT PEOPLE in Europe and Asia!

Now really. You can't play with the same rules of WW1 in a war like this.

There is only one rule in this word, There are no rules. Only those who follow the restriction that society places on them

I'm just saying that this is a new century, new warfare tactics, and new enemies to fight. This is a whole new world we're living in. Not the same two armies beat the living shit out of each other.

We're fighting people on the streets
We're fighting people on the internet
We're fighting people in the soil of Afghanistan
We're fighting people in the soil of America
We;re fighting these SAME EXACT PEOPLE in Europe and Asia!

Now really. You can't play with the same rules of WW1 in a war like this.


so that makes torture and secret detention okay, basically we just abandon all civilized values and sing to the level of nazi germany. next you'll be saying ethnic cleansing is okay as long as bush says that the population being exterminated gave support to terrorists.

Thats just wrong. Imagine if they did the same thing to American citizens. And yet somehow I'm sure they'll weasle out of it by calling him an 'enemy combatant' and not a POW. Doing that is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. We're in a war right? He was captured right? Thats a POW. Not an 'enemy combatant'. And the Geneva Convention applies to all nations who signed regardless is the people we are fighting have to obey it.

Now I never, ever said torture was okay. All I did was comment on how the Geneva Conventions needs to be revised in order to fit the new world!

Thats just wrong. Imagine if they did the same thing to American citizens. And yet somehow I'm sure they'll weasle out of it by calling him an 'enemy combatant' and not a POW. Doing that is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. We're in a war right? He was captured right? Thats a POW. Not an 'enemy combatant'. And the Geneva Convention applies to all nations who signed regardless is the people we are fighting have to obey it.As Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said: "If you're going to claim to be the good guys, you've got to act like the good guys."

Now I never, ever said torture was okay. All I did was comment on how the Geneva Conventions needs to be revised in order to fit the new world!

its the same old world its always been, 3000 dead american changed the consciousness of people in the united states not the worlds nature or the rules of common decency. the trgedy of 9/11 did allow certain evil men to have cover in the eyes of some americans for their attacks of international law and human rights.

So, what's the penalty for the delay of informing the Red Cross about this prisoner?

So, wait, let me get this straight... The sole remaining superpower, which has the capability to utterly annihilate all life anywhere on the planet (save cokroaches) admits to doing stuff that people find uncomfortable during... a war?

Pardon me, but I fail to see how "the little horrors of war" are anything new. We've kind of been doing it for ten thousand years. Things like the Geneva convention are just little facades that we pull over our actions so we can pat ourselves on the backs and say we're more civilised.

Now I never, ever said torture was okay. All I did was comment on how the Geneva Conventions needs to be revised in order to fit the new world!

its the same old world its always been, 3000 dead american changed the consciousness of people in the united states not the worlds nature or the rules of common decency. the trgedy of 9/11 did allow certain evil men to have cover in the eyes of some americans for their attacks of international law and human rights.
Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.

The main concern here would seem to be if this man is a POW. If he was fighting coalition forces when he was captured, he is a POW. If he was arrested for his connection to suicide bombings or other terrorist attacks he is a not a POW but a criminal, the Geneva convention does not apply to criminals, as far as I know.

So, wait, let me get this straight... The sole remaining superpower, which has the capability to utterly annihilate all life anywhere on the planet (save cokroaches) admits to doing stuff that people find uncomfortable during... a war?

Pardon me, but I fail to see how "the little horrors of war" are anything new. We've kind of been doing it for ten thousand years. Things like the Geneva convention are just little facades that we pull over our actions so we can pat ourselves on the backs and say we're more civilised.

I would have to agree, these thing happen in war, they have since the dawn of time, and will continue to happen. As much as we hate to admit it, it is basic humanity.

Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.


what the rapture came and no one told me.

how is it a new world, just because the horrors of large scale political murder finally came to america after having ravaged the rest of the world since time began.

So, wait, let me get this straight... The sole remaining superpower, which has the capability to utterly annihilate all life anywhere on the planet (save cokroaches) admits to doing stuff that people find uncomfortable during... a war?

Pardon me, but I fail to see how "the little horrors of war" are anything new. We've kind of been doing it for ten thousand years. Things like the Geneva convention are just little facades that we pull over our actions so we can pat ourselves on the backs and say we're more civilised.

I would have to agree, these thing happen in war, they have since the dawn of time, and will continue to happen. As much as we hate to admit it, it is basic humanity.
well...it gives me a good reason to denounce Britain's ban on the death penalty

Its not a new world(yet). Its still the old world thats spinning around the sun and will do so for a few billion years to come - hopefully. The US are trying to shape it for their benefit (New World Order anyone?) but acts surprised as to the resistance of the majority of the other nations of the world. Only the US claim that now, that its inconvenient for them, that the Geneva Conventions are "outdated".

Now I never, ever said torture was okay. All I did was comment on how the Geneva Conventions needs to be revised in order to fit the new world!

its the same old world its always been, 3000 dead american changed the consciousness of people in the united states not the worlds nature or the rules of common decency. the trgedy of 9/11 did allow certain evil men to have cover in the eyes of some americans for their attacks of international law and human rights.
Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.

How? How has it changed?

It has not changed for me, or anyone around me, still go to school, still go to uni or work. How has it changed for those working in the rice fields or cities in India and China? Or those in the factories of Brazil? Or those people in Africa? They still go about thier daily buisness the same as they did on the 10th September 2001.

The US may run the world, but just because something bad happens to it does not mean the rest of the globe will suddenly change. You may want to control the minds of the rest of us, but you still have a long way to go.

What has been done by the Bush Administration is illegal in the eyes of the Geneva Convention and US Law! (sorry about the large post)

In responce to the post concerning the update of war crime laws, the latest was in the 90's by Congress.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 118 > Sec. 2441.

Sec. 2441. - War crimes


(a) Offense. -

Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.

(b) Circumstances. -

The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).

(c) Definition. -

As used in this section the term ''war crime'' means any conduct -

(1)

defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;

(2)

prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;

(3)

which constitutes a violation of common Article 3 of the international conventions signed at Geneva, 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party and which deals with non-international armed conflict; or

(4)

of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians

Please do not just post news articles. We would rather you link to the article and put some substance of comment with it. We can all read the news for ourselves.

let me put it this way. I'm Canadian, and when this whole thing came out there where those here in Canada, said that US was evil for what they where doing to those prisoner.

The truth is the Comment made by my fellow country men made me sick.

How soon me forget, was the first thing that came to mind. As some of you may or may not be aware of is the Canadian troops in the past have been quilty of the same thing. In Somlia a few years back, a civilian prisoner was beaten to death by Canadian Troop. It was a dark day for Canada. But there was no international outcry as result, we dealt with it internally.

I was against the war, but what is done is done. Things like this will always occur no matter what Country it is, we just have to accept these fact as part of our humanity.

It's not a different world. Wake up. Humans have only one natural predator: ourselves. Our nature is war, and violence, and struggle over resources. There is nothing justified about war, this war or any other. It is about one animal destroying another. Wake up. Like pacifism, agreements which moderate the beast that is war have no place in reality.

I'd like to see the Geneva Convention stop a bullet or put the leg back on a kid who stepped on a land mine. Wake up. There is nothing new, only man's inhumanity to man.

Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.


How's it a 'New World'?

A couple of thousand innocent people died that day that just happened to be Americans. Put in a hundred or so at the Pentagon.

Tens of thousands die everyday directly or indirectly due to the influences of the United States. I can put up plenty of examples if you want.

Besides, your leaders created a 'Phantom Threat' to put wool over your eyes so that they can satisfy their own agendas. Yet here you are, blindly supporting them.

This reminds me of what Herman Goering, he was a close associate of Hitler for those don't know. After his capture, he was trialed at Nuremberg. He was questioned on how the Nazi State justified the conflict to its citizens (or a question to the similar effect.

"Why of course the people don't want war...But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they're being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
- Hermann Goering, Nuremberg, 1946.

Sounds familiar? The only difference was Hitler made a threat out of thin air, while those responsible for 9/11 orchestrated the murder of thousands.

JiangGuo

Now I never, ever said torture was okay. All I did was comment on how the Geneva Conventions needs to be revised in order to fit the new world!

its the same old world its always been, 3000 dead american changed the consciousness of people in the united states not the worlds nature or the rules of common decency. the trgedy of 9/11 did allow certain evil men to have cover in the eyes of some americans for their attacks of international law and human rights.
Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.

How? How has it changed?

It has not changed for me, or anyone around me, still go to school, still go to uni or work. How has it changed for those working in the rice fields or cities in India and China? Or those in the factories of Brazil? Or those people in Africa? They still go about thier daily buisness the same as they did on the 10th September 2001.
Yes, if only you forget the...

- Hightened tensions between U.S. and Middle Eastern governments
- Passengers to/from/and within the U.S. facing strict security checks
- More U.S. students learning about this political climate of ours
- Increased suicide bombings within Iraq (don't bother saying Al-Qaeda isn't in Iraq)
- A few hundred American children are now orphaned because their parents died among 2,998+ others
- Government passing Patriot Act
- More recruitment into Al-Qaeda
- Suicide bombings/attempts in the middle of Europe (Madrid, Britain anyone?)
- U.N. tensions, and proof of ineffectivness to American interests
- Suicide bombings attacks ALL OVER the Middle East and Pakistan


That's off the top of my bloody head. Now if you want to go and say that none of these are true...

Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.

A new world for America, perhaps --- becoming suddenly aware of its vulnerability, and that its not as popular as it thought. Yeah, I guess waking up can be thought of as a new world.

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.

Your off by a long shot

It's a new world man.

A new world for America, perhaps --- becoming suddenly aware of its vulnerability, and that its not as popular as it thought. Yeah, I guess waking up can be thought of as a new world.
good one...*keeps it in mind for future people saying that nothing new happened after 9/11*

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.

im not an arab so i dont care

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.

Good point.
Remember, America is the Land of the Free --- everyone else has to pay for it.

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.
Okay man. Few problems

- I am not, in any way, affiliated with any terrorist organization
- My biggest crime is ripping off one of those pillow tags
- The Bill of Rights protects my rights, seeing as how I;m a citizen of America.
- Your example is unreasonable.

The main concern here would seem to be if this man is a POW. If he was fighting coalition forces when he was captured, he is a POW. If he was arrested for his connection to suicide bombings or other terrorist attacks he is a not a POW but a criminal, the Geneva convention does not apply to criminals, as far as I know.
The US is NOT the police force of Iraq?

You need to quit thinking of this as an "eye-for-an-eye" situation. Just because they imprison and torture civilians doesn't mean we should do it, because we're better than that.

And how is it a new world? You think terrorism was invented in 2001? As long as there have been governments, there have been factions that opposed them. Every government has had one. Every government TODAY has one. If our government isn't held accountable for its actions, then it will become corrupt, and bad things will happen. It has happened many, many times in the past. Do you really want that?

- I am not, in any way, affiliated with any terrorist organization
- My biggest crime is ripping off one of those pillow tags
- The Bill of Rights protects my rights, seeing as how I;m a citizen of America.
- Your example is unreasonable.

1.) Neither is the vast majority of the arab world or the entire world actually
2.) The same counts for the vast majority of the arab world and the rest of the world
3.) Various international laws and human rights aswell as the Geneva conventions, are intended to guarantee that humans respect human lives and do not act out of their way. The US trampled these rights and treaties with their feet, invalidating them. Because if the greatest protector and possible enforcer of these laws, does not regard them as sacred and worth of abiding by, then they do in fact mean nothing. The values you expect to have guaranteed by your constitution are not guaranteed for some humans on this world, which does not give you the right to trea tthem as if these normal human rights dont exist elsewhere. You are bound by your own laws and expected to follow them, even if you are not on your own soil.

You invalided your entire argument with your black&white view on the world. Thank you for making it so easy.

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.

im not an arab so i dont care
That may be a large part of the problem then? People who don't care?

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.

im not an arab so i dont care

I'm sure I'll find that reassuring when its my turn against the wall. Seriously, not giving a care about the next guy (regardless of colour, creed, or headgear) is what lets otherwise good folk stand by and let the brownshirst take over. It happened in Europe before/during WWII --- not my problem, said half of Europe (including the Vatican) --- it happened in Rwanda, and no doubt it will happen again. Hell, the U.S. didn't get involved in either world war until things started to have a personal effect.

Now go ahead and boo-hoo that 'they-don't-care-about-our-rights-so-we-shouldn't-about-theirs' --- that thinking drops us to their level. You want a free society, fine, have one. Hold it up as a big shiny example to the rest of the world. If you want absolute security, enjoy your moral compromise.

Being prudent doesn't mean we have to be animals.

The Geneva Conventions need a revision...this is getting out of hand
If the police come and take you away to a secret place and don't notify ANYONE or lay any charges against you, then you have no problem with that? Yeah right.
Okay man. Few problems

- I am not, in any way, affiliated with any terrorist organization
- My biggest crime is ripping off one of those pillow tags
- The Bill of Rights protects my rights, seeing as how I;m a citizen of America.
- Your example is unreasonable.
Only because you are safe in your own little world. The Patriot Act says the US can do that so make sure you cross the street at the lights?

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Out of ideas, are we?

The main concern here would seem to be if this man is a POW. If he was fighting coalition forces when he was captured, he is a POW. If he was arrested for his connection to suicide bombings or other terrorist attacks he is a not a POW but a criminal, the Geneva convention does not apply to criminals, as far as I know.
The US is NOT the police force of Iraq?The US is, for all intents and purposes, the police force in Iraq. But, if the man in question was fighting soldiers he is a POW, if he was murdering civilians, he is a criminal. Arresting a criminal and capturing a POW are different things, it is not clear to me which was done here.

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LOL
Out of ideas, are we?
Agreeing to disagree

I mean....it's not like any one of us are going to change our opinions based on what a stranger says, right? :P

The main concern here would seem to be if this man is a POW. If he was fighting coalition forces when he was captured, he is a POW. If he was arrested for his connection to suicide bombings or other terrorist attacks he is a not a POW but a criminal, the Geneva convention does not apply to criminals, as far as I know.
The US is NOT the police force of Iraq?The US is, for all intents and purposes, the police force in Iraq. But, if the man in question was fighting soldiers he is a POW, if he was murdering civilians, he is a criminal. Arresting a criminal and capturing a POW are different things, it is not clear to me which was done here.
When a person is arrested in the US for commission of a crime, does that person have the right to call a lawyer or his family? Of course. So if the US is trying to instill "democratic" process in Iraq, why would any criminal be denied at least the minimal equivalent to US law?

Yes, if only you forget the...

- Hightened tensions between U.S. and Middle Eastern governments
- Passengers to/from/and within the U.S. facing strict security checks
- More U.S. students learning about this political climate of ours
- Increased suicide bombings within Iraq (don't bother saying Al-Qaeda isn't in Iraq)
- A few hundred American children are now orphaned because their parents died among 2,998+ others
- Government passing Patriot Act
- More recruitment into Al-Qaeda
- Suicide bombings/attempts in the middle of Europe (Madrid, Britain anyone?)
- U.N. tensions, and proof of ineffectivness to American interests
- Suicide bombings attacks ALL OVER the Middle East and Pakistan


That's off the top of my bloody head. Now if you want to go and say that none of these are true...

Ill go point to point:

- How does this affect me? Or the several billion outside these regions, does it change the way people go about thier daily buisness? Ok, so the Arabs hate the US a bit more, not exactly big news, the general Arab public has always been hostile to the US

- How many travel to the US each year? A few million? Does not change much for the vast majority of earth's population.

- Only the US.

- People are dying in Iraq, they have done for the past 50 years or so under the Baathists, they are just doing so in a different way now.

- Not really a world changing thing. Maybe you should take a trip to Africa or South America, see plenty of orphans there, and they live on the street.

- US policy.

- Yes, fed by US actions. They kill you as they percive you are harming Muslims, so what happens, you invade two Muslim nations, you aid Israel (dont get into rights and wrongs in Palestine, it is a can of worms), seemingly ignore Chechnya and the situation in Kashmir, hostility to Iran. These may not be the issues as to why the leaders are fighting, but they are important issues for regular Muslims. I am not saying these actions are right or wrong, just stating causes and effects.

- Oh no, terrorism in Europe, well thats never happened before. Spain has always been under threat from ETA, its just a bit higher now, France has been dealing with Islamic terror for decades (Algerian dissidents), and the UK has had Irish dissidents threatening us for what, 90 years? I remember a car bomb in my local city a few years back, luckily it failed but was in such a place to have killed at least as many as the Madrid attacks, if not many more. Greece has had far left bomb attacks in the past too.

- There are tensions yes, but how does this effect the regular guy on the streets of Santiago, or Cape Town, or Tokyo?

- Fair enough.

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Out of ideas, are we?
Agreeing to disagree

I mean....it's not like any one of us are going to change our opinions based on what a stranger says, right? :P
I know that you are young and the world still is unfolding for you, but can you for once, put yourself in that other person's shoes and imagine what you would do or think if you were him.

The US is, for all intents and purposes, the police force in Iraq. But, if the man in question was fighting soldiers he is a POW, if he was murdering civilians, he is a criminal. Arresting a criminal and capturing a POW are different things, it is not clear to me which was done here.

Agreed, it's not clear. But we hold our own police to a standard --- due process, and equality before the law. The situation at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay are a bit unsettling. They are stateless affairs in which there is no price for error. The Geneva Conventions may have their limits and may need to be updated, but I don't think not tossed away --- lest somebody else open up their own extranational prison and start tossing Americans in. It's bad enough that terrorists do it; we don't need governments doing it legally.

I mean....it's not like any one of us are going to change our opinions based on what a stranger says, right? :P

You'd be surprised. I've had my eyes opened a few times on messageboards. Just need to see all sides of things, even if you don't agree with them, if only to see how they got that way.

In relation to my last point:

Actually, not fair enough, again, people killing people, how is that a change? People have always killed people, and will carry on doing so, probably until the end of this place.

What has changed is that the US and the West has been shown a glimpse of the real world, where people die; genocide, rape and war - they have had thier middle class rose tinted spectacles ripped from thier faces and for a moment have seen the natural world in its true horrific glory. They have been so sheltered for so long and now reality has finally hit you - welcome to the jungle, its real, its brutal and its a killer - enjoy.

Humans are capable of horrific acts, this is a fact that has been shown time and again but is generally blocked out due to the fact it does not fit in with peoples view of how things should work, modern society tell us that people should not be capable of such things - so when they happen they are blocked out, the TV station is changed or people sit and think, "Oh dear, thats not very nice, those poor people..... I wonder what is on Fox later".

Don Rumsfeld deserves to be tortured to death

Maybe this is the beginning of the end...the end of the Geneva Conventions.

I'd say I'm sorry, but I would be lying. They are meaningless now, and they were meaningless when first written. War is not nice.

And we should stop pretending it can be.

Maybe this is the beginning of the end...the end of the Geneva Conventions.

I'd say I'm sorry, but I would be lying. They are meaningless now, and they were meaningless when first written. War is not nice.

And we should stop pretending it can be.more likely its the beginnning of the end of the american empire or the world--take your pick

More likely its the beginnning of the end of the american empire or the world--take your pick

Ah...you'd like that, wouldn't you? You just can't stand order, can you...no, everytime people like you see anything that works, you want to destroy it.

Well, I have news for you. With out the USA, or the UK, or any of the countries you hate, you'd have been put in a Nazi Death Camp the second you started to speak your anarchist ideals. I find it surprising that you'd be so ungrateful to the very things which allow you to speak.

Can anybody tell me why the Red Cross can complain to allied forces when we 'torture' Iraqi suspected terrorists but they [the red cross] dont say f*ck all when Iraqi rebels are cutting the heads of innocent civilians.

The main concern here would seem to be if this man is a POW. If he was fighting coalition forces when he was captured, he is a POW. If he was arrested for his connection to suicide bombings or other terrorist attacks he is a not a POW but a criminal, the Geneva convention does not apply to criminals, as far as I know.
The US is NOT the police force of Iraq?The US is, for all intents and purposes, the police force in Iraq. But, if the man in question was fighting soldiers he is a POW, if he was murdering civilians, he is a criminal. Arresting a criminal and capturing a POW are different things, it is not clear to me which was done here.
When a person is arrested in the US for commission of a crime, does that person have the right to call a lawyer or his family? Of course. So if the US is trying to instill "democratic" process in Iraq, why would any criminal be denied at least the minimal equivalent to US law?You should look into martial law. Those standards would apply in Iraq much more readily than any civil procedures in the US.

The US is, for all intents and purposes, the police force in Iraq. But, if the man in question was fighting soldiers he is a POW, if he was murdering civilians, he is a criminal. Arresting a criminal and capturing a POW are different things, it is not clear to me which was done here.

Agreed, it's not clear. But we hold our own police to a standard --- due process, and equality before the law. The situation at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay are a bit unsettling. They are stateless affairs in which there is no price for error. The Geneva Conventions may have their limits and may need to be updated, but I don't think not tossed away --- lest somebody else open up their own extranational prison and start tossing Americans in. It's bad enough that terrorists do it; we don't need governments doing it legally.See my respnse to CanuckHeaven's post.

I'd at this point actually support a German prison for Americans, complete with torturing devices and no access for non-prisoners. Have them taste some of their own medicine since apparently nobody else is going to do it :p

I am just kidding of course, since I dont support torture or unfounded prison for any human being on the planet, not even Americans, who'd deserve it for committing various crimes - not just war crimes on all of mankind. Apparently the inhibitor level of Americans has already been lowered enough by the war rhetorics of the US Administration, that these violations of law are being accepted as lawful.

I'd at this point actually support a German prison for Americans, complete with torturing devices and no access for non-prisoners. Have them taste some of their own medicine since apparently nobody else is going to do it :pAmerican prisons are bad enough.

let me put it this way. I'm Canadian, and when this whole thing came out there where those here in Canada, said that US was evil for what they where doing to those prisoner.

The truth is the Comment made by my fellow country men made me sick.

How soon me forget, was the first thing that came to mind. As some of you may or may not be aware of is the Canadian troops in the past have been quilty of the same thing. In Somlia a few years back, a civilian prisoner was beaten to death by Canadian Troop. It was a dark day for Canada. But there was no international outcry as result, we dealt with it internally.

I was against the war, but what is done is done. Things like this will always occur no matter what Country it is, we just have to accept these fact as part of our humanity.

I will agree that peole who lump a whole group into association with the actions of a few are doing themselves a disservice. But that does not mean that you cannot speak out against the few.

As to your comparison in relation to this post, has it occured to you at all that there is a diference between the actions of our soldiers in Somalia - who as you so clearly note WERE punished - and the actions of a leader who will likely not be punished? Rumsfeld ORDERED breaches of law. Should he not be dealt with?

I mean, you are right. We DID deal with it. People were jailed. An entire unit was disbanded and disgraced. What exactly are the Americans doing in this specific case of a documented direct order from Rumsfeld? Nothing. As long as the Administration gives itself a free pass on whatever liberties they take with the law then they cannot be said to be dealing with it the same as we did.

Plus this is the leadership dammit! not a soldier in the field. These people are supposed to be setting an example, and they are - the notion that legalities do not matter a damn.

As to your "oh well - it happens" idea. That is true. but that doesn't excuse it or mean that we don't at least TRY to stop it or deal with the offenders. You can't comment on the fact that we dealt with it as being relevant, but then also excuse the other for NOT dealing with it. That makes no sense.

The parallel argument to what you seemt o be saying is that murders, rapes, and thievery have happened since the dawn of humanity too. So let's just accept it and get rid of that whole legal system of dealing with criminals... because hey! that's just life. What was done was done.

-Z-

I'm just saying that this is a new century, new warfare tactics, and new enemies to fight. This is a whole new world we're living in. Not the same two armies beat the living shit out of each other.

We're fighting people on the streets
We're fighting people on the internet
We're fighting people in the soil of Afghanistan
We're fighting people in the soil of America
We;re fighting these SAME EXACT PEOPLE in Europe and Asia!

Now really. You can't play with the same rules of WW1 in a war like this.


so that makes torture and secret detention okay, basically we just abandon all civilized values and sing to the level of nazi germany. next you'll be saying ethnic cleansing is okay as long as bush says that the population being exterminated gave support to terrorists.

Even Nazi Germany treated Allied POW's with all the rights accorded to them. Except for a few bad cases. But then again, its always the exceptions which make the average soldier look bad.

Colodia is right. The Geneva conventions need a complete revamp.

So many people on these boards are quick to accept that the few soldiers which acted lie complete idiots at Abu Ghraib represent ALL the soldiers in the U.S. or in fact every civilian. And the endless comparisons to the Nazis as the supreme evil. Wermarcht soldiers were just fighting for their state, not as if they had a choice, much like the present soldiers. The treatment of the prisonners was awful, unlawful under U.S. law and the people who did it are being punished. The senior individuals in charge will also be punished. Kirpinski can say whatever she wants about the intelligence branch being handed the cell block, it was her prison and the prisonners were under her charge and he responsability. Your NOT forced to obey an illegal order. Anyone whose served in any Western military force would know that.

Then again I believe alot of you have never served in an armed force and thus like to generalize that all soldiers are somehow evil, and complicit in the will and actions of their political leaders.

Can anybody tell me why the Red Cross can complain to allied forces when we 'torture' Iraqi suspected terrorists but they [the red cross] dont say f*ck all when Iraqi rebels are cutting the heads of innocent civilians.

Ummmm..... How to answer this....

Because we are supposed to be the good guys? Why does the existence of terrorists justify the use of terror tactics by the most modern and developed country in the world? If we don't listen to the Red Cross' "complaining" we are just warmongering murderers, who stuck their nose where it doesn't belong. What happened to people actaully believing in American ideals, and not just American supremacy? Why can the Red Cross complain? Because WE ASKED THEM TO, the Iraqi rebels dont give a damn what the Red Cross says, and they dont pretend to, but We are supposed to give a damn.

What happened to the country I was taught about in grade school?

Your counry died and was sold to the rich when Bush came into power and the population has silently accepted its loss of power over the course of the country. Your only chance to do anything to regain some sort of credibility in the world, is to kick Bush out of office next elections.