NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3815311.stm

The Geneva Convention seems to mean nothing to Bush and his administration. I think it is becoming clear who the real terrorists are.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.How does this help and how is it necessary?

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.

TRA??????? :P

I don't think we have reached that point yet.

Remeber the next guy can reverse all the crap the shrub has done....

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them. Reminds me of the bit in Star Trek III where Kirk blows up the Enterprise to stop the Klingons getting their hands on it.
A pretty hollow victory merely to be able to destroy your principles before the terrorists manage to.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.

TRA??????? :P

I don't think we have reached that point yet.

Remeber the next guy can reverse all the crap the shrub has done....

nothing can reverse the damage to the US's reputation, and it will take years to build back the civil rights that have been systematically dismantled. i like America a whole lot more than TRA ever did, and that's why it hurts me so much to see all the best qualities of this country thrown aside in favor of partisan agendas and selfish gains.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.

dp

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.
That's what has been said during every war since WWII. The part about the constitution is debatable, but our values have been preserved, namely, that we care that Americans live. It all traces back to both Rosseau and Locke's theory of the social contract. We need to protect as many of our people as we can, and that's why we're fighting these wars.
As for being a laughingstock, our name isn't. American culture, and even values, have been embraced in Asia, and even Africa. The only reason why Europe is being so vocal about US policy is because they've never embraced any American influence since the Marshall Plan.

nothing can reverse the damage to the US's reputation, and it will take years to build back the civil rights that have been systematically dismantled. i like America a whole lot more than TRA ever did, and that's why it hurts me so much to see all the best qualities of this country thrown aside in favor of partisan agendas and selfish gains.

The problem is conservatism. The solution is anarchy. If we fight the status quo, we can change things. You'll lose your symbolic right to own something backed up by violence, but it's a small price to pay for freedom.

-----------------------------------------
"The [Nazi] Party is based on the fundamental principle of private property" - Adolf Hitler (What does that say about capitalism?)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.How does this help and how is it necessary?
That two parted question goes hand-in-hand, so I'll give you one answer. These enemies, while hardly representing a minority of Islam, are the most religiously fanatical enemy that America, and possibly the West, has ever faced. When one is devoted to a commander or a nation, it's easier for interrogators to convince them to betray these entities, and once they are gone, information flows out of them like a spiket. It's not true for those that truely believe they are doing God's work. God is a force that can't be destroyed, and as we know, faith can't be taken away. While they embrace a twisted view of Islam based on violence and oppression, it is, nevertheless, faith. But it can be hollow. bin Laden has probably rarely stepped foot into a mosque himself, but envokes religious rhetoric to convince others like him that God is on their side, regardless of how they interpret Sunni or Shi'ite Islam. Therefore, a bit of emotional and psychological torture can go a very long way in coaxing otherwise burried information. However, I'll never approve of physical or sexual torture, as it is always counterproductive. And I'm disgusted by our boys at Abu Ghraib.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.

You want me to shed tears over dead terrorists..sorry..none to give..and yes..that silenced pistol could save lives..American lives..and I have no problem ending their lives to save mine.

nothing can reverse the damage to the US's reputation, and it will take years to build back the civil rights that have been systematically dismantled. i like America a whole lot more than TRA ever did, and that's why it hurts me so much to see all the best qualities of this country thrown aside in favor of partisan agendas and selfish gains.

The problem is conservatism. The solution is anarchy. If we fight the status quo, we can change things. You'll lose your symbolic right to own something backed up by violence, but it's a small price to pay for freedom.


i've always found that it is difficult to solve any problem by going to the opposite extreme, especially when that alternate extreme makes it impossible to defend the things you value.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.How does this help and how is it necessary?
That two parted question goes hand-in-hand, so I'll give you one answer. These enemies, while hardly representing a minority of Islam, are the most religiously fanatical enemy that America, and possibly the West, has ever faced. When one is devoted to a commander or a nation, it's easier for interrogators to convince them to betray these entities, and once they are gone, information flows out of them like a spiket. It's not true for those that truely believe they are doing God's work. God is a force that can't be destroyed, and as we know, faith can't be taken away. While they embrace a twisted view of Islam based on violence and oppression, it is, nevertheless, faith. But it can be hollow. bin Laden has probably rarely stepped foot into a mosque himself, but envokes religious rhetoric to convince others like him that God is on their side, regardless of how they interpret Sunni or Shi'ite Islam. Therefore, a bit of emotional and psychological torture can go a very long way in coaxing otherwise burried information. However, I'll never approve of physical or sexual torture, as it is always counterproductive. And I'm disgusted by our boys at Abu Ghraib.That sounded just like a Bush answer on the issue, what with all the not actually answering my question there. Let me try again: How does this help and how is it necessary? How does keeping him locked up help on its own, unless you're planning to violate other sections of the law such as physical abuse?

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.
It all depends on who weilds the weapon. It's like anything, such as uranium. In the right hands, it be used to power the homes of thousands. In the wrong hands, it can be used to kill millions.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.

You want me to shed tears over dead terrorists..sorry..none to give..and yes..that silenced pistol could save lives..American lives..and I have no problem ending their lives to save mine.Yeah, the problem is, they aren't terrorists you're killing. It'd be rather a bad idea for the US to kill terrorists actually, when they could be interrogated. No, the people who are dying are mostly Iraqi civillians caught up on the wrong side of things.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.
It all depends on who weilds the weapon. It's like anything, such as uranium. In the right hands, it be used to power the homes of thousands. In the wrong hands, it can be used to kill millions.Can I run my water heater on a 9mm?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.How does this help and how is it necessary?
That two parted question goes hand-in-hand, so I'll give you one answer. These enemies, while hardly representing a minority of Islam, are the most religiously fanatical enemy that America, and possibly the West, has ever faced. When one is devoted to a commander or a nation, it's easier for interrogators to convince them to betray these entities, and once they are gone, information flows out of them like a spiket. It's not true for those that truely believe they are doing God's work. God is a force that can't be destroyed, and as we know, faith can't be taken away. While they embrace a twisted view of Islam based on violence and oppression, it is, nevertheless, faith. But it can be hollow. bin Laden has probably rarely stepped foot into a mosque himself, but envokes religious rhetoric to convince others like him that God is on their side, regardless of how they interpret Sunni or Shi'ite Islam. Therefore, a bit of emotional and psychological torture can go a very long way in coaxing otherwise burried information. However, I'll never approve of physical or sexual torture, as it is always counterproductive. And I'm disgusted by our boys at Abu Ghraib.That sounded just like a Bush answer on the issue, what with all the not actually answering my question there. Let me try again: How does this help and how is it necessary? How does keeping him locked up help on its own, unless you're planning to violate other sections of the law such as physical abuse?
Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.

Once the USA trampled their own ideals to bring these same ideals to others, they have lost all credibility. A forced democracy wont work, especially not with a puppet government - it didnt work in Germany when the USSR tried it and it wont work in Iraq.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.How does this help and how is it necessary?
That two parted question goes hand-in-hand, so I'll give you one answer. These enemies, while hardly representing a minority of Islam, are the most religiously fanatical enemy that America, and possibly the West, has ever faced. When one is devoted to a commander or a nation, it's easier for interrogators to convince them to betray these entities, and once they are gone, information flows out of them like a spiket. It's not true for those that truely believe they are doing God's work. God is a force that can't be destroyed, and as we know, faith can't be taken away. While they embrace a twisted view of Islam based on violence and oppression, it is, nevertheless, faith. But it can be hollow. bin Laden has probably rarely stepped foot into a mosque himself, but envokes religious rhetoric to convince others like him that God is on their side, regardless of how they interpret Sunni or Shi'ite Islam. Therefore, a bit of emotional and psychological torture can go a very long way in coaxing otherwise burried information. However, I'll never approve of physical or sexual torture, as it is always counterproductive. And I'm disgusted by our boys at Abu Ghraib.That sounded just like a Bush answer on the issue, what with all the not actually answering my question there. Let me try again: How does this help and how is it necessary? How does keeping him locked up help on its own, unless you're planning to violate other sections of the law such as physical abuse?
Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.

TRA??????? :P

I don't think we have reached that point yet.

Remeber the next guy can reverse all the crap the shrub has done....

nothing can reverse the damage to the US's reputation, and it will take years to build back the civil rights that have been systematically dismantled. i like America a whole lot more than TRA ever did, and that's why it hurts me so much to see all the best qualities of this country thrown aside in favor of partisan agendas and selfish gains.

Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.No, I understand that, but how does locking them up without listing that they are locked up help you to interogate them as opposed to merely helping you avoid the law?

Also, the ticking timebomb is bullshit. There are almost no examples of when methods like torture and other methods breaking the Geneva convention have actually gained "real time" intel. Surely the people it Gitmo's detonators have run out by now, almost three years after they were arrested, no?

You want to talk about the Geneva Convention? How about Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds and Iranians? That is strictly forbidden in the Geneva Convention. How about Arab soldiers dressed as civilians, fighting from within homes, mosques, and hospitals? How about the "rape-rooms" Saddam and his sons used to frequent. And you dare to call our soldiers, men and women as young as 18 years old, terrorists? If you've got such a problem with U.S. foreign policy, why don't you pack up your belongings from your upper middle class two story house, get in your mini-van, and drive just across the U.S. border to Canada. Face it, the Iraqis have been liberated from a regime that was responsible for murdering 300,000 to 1,000,000 people, and now, for the first time in over a decade, have a single, unified currency. I would much rather our troops, who are armed with guns, tanks, hummers, planes, and choppers, do battle with the terrorists that keep flooding into Iraq, than for civilians armed with briefcases and cellphones to face them in Ohio, New York, or Texas.

You want to talk about the Geneva Convention?
Thanks to the US administration, the international laws and the Geneva Convention that took many years to get, a lot of deaths and fighting, will mean nothing in the future. If the US do not obey the laws set by the international community, then nobody will. You cannot fight something with something that you want to prevent! Fire with fire doesnt work in this case. Evil and evil creates more evil! How can you not see that the war has not reduced terrorist support, but increased it by a hundred fold??

You want to talk about the Geneva Convention? How about Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds and Iranians? That is strictly forbidden in the Geneva Convention. How about Arab soldiers dressed as civilians, fighting from within homes, mosques, and hospitals? How about the "rape-rooms" Saddam and his sons used to frequent. And you dare to call our soldiers, men and women as young as 18 years old, terrorists? If you've got such a problem with U.S. foreign policy, why don't you pack up your belongings from your upper middle class two story house, get in your mini-van, and drive just across the U.S. border to Canada. Face it, the Iraqis have been liberated from a regime that was responsible for murdering 300,000 to 1,000,000 people, and now, for the first time in over a decade, have a single, unified currency. I would much rather our troops, who are armed with guns, tanks, hummers, planes, and choppers, do battle with the terrorists that keep flooding into Iraq, than for civilians armed with briefcases and cellphones to face them in Ohio, New York, or Texas.Out of the fire and into the frying pan. I'd hate for the standard we judge ourselves by to be "slightly less mean than Saddam Hussain."

You want to talk about the Geneva Convention?
Thanks to the US administration, the international laws and the Geneva Convention that took many years to get, a lot of deaths and fighting, will mean nothing in the future. If the US do not obey the laws set by the international community, then nobody will. You cannot fight something with something that you want to prevent! Fire with fire doesnt work in this case. Evil and evil creates more evil! How can you not see that the war has not reduced terrorist support, but increased it by a hundred fold??
You've hit the heart of the problem here. By disregarding international policy we ourselves were influential in shaping, we're sending a very clear message to the terrorists that this international law means nothing, if we don't follow it why should anyone else have to?

If we torture our prisoners how on earth can we guaruntee that our own POWs won't be tortured in turn? We can't, and that's the worst of it.

Unlike some, though, I think there's still hope for the country. As much as I hate the administration, it's still my country. I wish people would stop bashing the USA and concentrate on where the real problem is... its non-majority-supported bush administration.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.

You want me to shed tears over dead terrorists..sorry..none to give..and yes..that silenced pistol could save lives..American lives..and I have no problem ending their lives to save mine.Yeah, the problem is, they aren't terrorists you're killing. It'd be rather a bad idea for the US to kill terrorists actually, when they could be interrogated. No, the people who are dying are mostly Iraqi civillians caught up on the wrong side of things.

And your proof they are mostly Iraqi civilians?...We have no real time intel, at least 1 in 3 were in Abu Ghairib as bonafide insurgents, and I have no clue as to how many might have been wielding weapons against US troops, toss them and then say "Oh we're just law abiding Iraqis, we didn't shoot anyone"

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.

You want me to shed tears over dead terrorists..sorry..none to give..and yes..that silenced pistol could save lives..American lives..and I have no problem ending their lives to save mine.Yeah, the problem is, they aren't terrorists you're killing. It'd be rather a bad idea for the US to kill terrorists actually, when they could be interrogated. No, the people who are dying are mostly Iraqi civillians caught up on the wrong side of things.

And your proof they are mostly Iraqi civilians?...We have no real time intel, at least 1 in 3 were in Abu Ghairib as bonafide insurgents, and I have no clue as to how many might have been wielding weapons against US troops, toss them and then say "Oh we're just law abiding Iraqis, we didn't shoot anyone"You think that of the 10,000 non-military people we killed in Iraq, 5001 were terrorists? If not, then my claim that "most" were Iraqi civillians stands.

Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.No, I understand that, but how does locking them up without listing that they are locked up help you to interogate them as opposed to merely helping you avoid the law?

Also, the ticking timebomb is bullshit. There are almost no examples of when methods like torture and other methods breaking the Geneva convention have actually gained "real time" intel. Surely the people it Gitmo's detonators have run out by now, almost three years after they were arrested, no?
Well, if you remember, Hussein wasn't officially listed as captured, so I think this "ghost prisoner" situation is something like that. I'm not sure how that helps, however.
As for the ticking time bomb, quite a few of these terrorists are. Even if they aren't, they often know a lot about terrorrists who are, and impending plots. It was through one such prisoner, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, that we found out about why we missed 9/11. It was also through a detainee that we found out about the plot in Amman. Israel uses this method all the time, and in my opinion, they're probably more justified in this approach, because there'll always be a ticking time bomb among HAMAS or Hizb'Allah.
Finally, I want to address your point about Gitmo. The first inmates have certainly given us a plethora of information, and they are rewarded as such. ABC News had an exclusive inside Camp X-Ray, the part in Gitmo where most detainees are. Those who satisifactorily provided information get to stay in large, spacious barracks where about a dozen people can comfortably fit in there. I assume, as the administration has often indicated, that they're waiting for a military tribunal to try them.

"Evil and evil creates more evil! How can you not see that the war has not reduced terrorist support, but increased it by a hundred fold??"

We are at war with a regime that supports terrorists. When a terrorist goes to a US military post in Iraq and blows himself up, he dies. That means one less terrorist. Sure, these terror networks are training more, but the fact is that they are depleting there forces. And who said the US government sponsored the torture of Iraqis? If tommorow I decided to go to Mexico and start shooting Mexicans, does that mean the US is responsible? No. So when a group of rogue military personnel turns a prison into a torture house, unless the US government makes public its support of this action, this is against the US policy. And why are people so quick to shed a tear for Iraqis and turn a blind eye to the POW's from both this war and the first war in Iraq?

Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.No, I understand that, but how does locking them up without listing that they are locked up help you to interogate them as opposed to merely helping you avoid the law?

Also, the ticking timebomb is bullshit. There are almost no examples of when methods like torture and other methods breaking the Geneva convention have actually gained "real time" intel. Surely the people it Gitmo's detonators have run out by now, almost three years after they were arrested, no?
Well, if you remember, Hussein wasn't officially listed as captured, so I think this "ghost prisoner" situation is something like that. I'm not sure how that helps, however.
As for the ticking time bomb, quite a few of these terrorists are. Even if they aren't, they often know a lot about terrorrists who are, and impending plots. It was through one such prisoner, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, that we found out about why we missed 9/11. It was also through a detainee that we found out about the plot in Amman. Israel uses this method all the time, and in my opinion, they're probably more justified in this approach, because there'll always be a ticking time bomb among HAMAS or Hizb'Allah.
Finally, I want to address your point about Gitmo. The first inmates have certainly given us a plethora of information, and they are rewarded as such. ABC News had an exclusive inside Camp X-Ray, the part in Gitmo where most detainees are. Those who satisifactorily provided information get to stay in large, spacious barracks where about a dozen people can comfortably fit in there. I assume, as the administration has often indicated, that they're waiting for a military tribunal to try them.

The bit bout the Israelis is true...they have always had good intel on Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Asqa Matyrs Brigades, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.....it is precisely because of the way they interrogate Palestinian terrorists that they get the info they do, thus stopping untold numbers of bombings, assaults, and the whereabouts of the political and military command structure...who knows how many Jews are saved due to procedures like those use at Abu Gharib

Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.No, I understand that, but how does locking them up without listing that they are locked up help you to interogate them as opposed to merely helping you avoid the law?

Also, the ticking timebomb is bullshit. There are almost no examples of when methods like torture and other methods breaking the Geneva convention have actually gained "real time" intel. Surely the people it Gitmo's detonators have run out by now, almost three years after they were arrested, no?
Well, if you remember, Hussein wasn't officially listed as captured, so I think this "ghost prisoner" situation is something like that. I'm not sure how that helps, however.
As for the ticking time bomb, quite a few of these terrorists are. Even if they aren't, they often know a lot about terrorrists who are, and impending plots. It was through one such prisoner, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, that we found out about why we missed 9/11. It was also through a detainee that we found out about the plot in Amman. Israel uses this method all the time, and in my opinion, they're probably more justified in this approach, because there'll always be a ticking time bomb among HAMAS or Hizb'Allah.
Finally, I want to address your point about Gitmo. The first inmates have certainly given us a plethora of information, and they are rewarded as such. ABC News had an exclusive inside Camp X-Ray, the part in Gitmo where most detainees are. Those who satisifactorily provided information get to stay in large, spacious barracks where about a dozen people can comfortably fit in there. I assume, as the administration has often indicated, that they're waiting for a military tribunal to try them.

The bit bout the Israelis is true...they have always had good intel on Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Asqa Matyrs Brigades, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.....it is precisely because of the way they interrogate Palestinian terrorists that they get the info they do, thus stopping untold numbers of bombings, assaults, and the whereabouts of the political and military command structure...who knows how many Jews are saved due to procedures like those use at Abu Gharib

Let me dumb it down for you: these people are motivated by "faith", and that is far more eternal and commands far more loyalty that nations. They are often ticking time bombs, and know information that can prevent attacks. Therefore, this information needs to get out before it's too late. If terrorists tell interrogators up front, great. But most need to be pushed, if you will, in order to get vital information out. And that, my friend, is how it helps, and why it is all too often neccessary.No, I understand that, but how does locking them up without listing that they are locked up help you to interogate them as opposed to merely helping you avoid the law?

Also, the ticking timebomb is bullshit. There are almost no examples of when methods like torture and other methods breaking the Geneva convention have actually gained "real time" intel. Surely the people it Gitmo's detonators have run out by now, almost three years after they were arrested, no?
Well, if you remember, Hussein wasn't officially listed as captured, so I think this "ghost prisoner" situation is something like that. I'm not sure how that helps, however.
As for the ticking time bomb, quite a few of these terrorists are. Even if they aren't, they often know a lot about terrorrists who are, and impending plots. It was through one such prisoner, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, that we found out about why we missed 9/11. It was also through a detainee that we found out about the plot in Amman. Israel uses this method all the time, and in my opinion, they're probably more justified in this approach, because there'll always be a ticking time bomb among HAMAS or Hizb'Allah.
Finally, I want to address your point about Gitmo. The first inmates have certainly given us a plethora of information, and they are rewarded as such. ABC News had an exclusive inside Camp X-Ray, the part in Gitmo where most detainees are. Those who satisifactorily provided information get to stay in large, spacious barracks where about a dozen people can comfortably fit in there. I assume, as the administration has often indicated, that they're waiting for a military tribunal to try them.

The bit bout the Israelis is true...they have always had good intel on Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Asqa Matyrs Brigades, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.....it is precisely because of the way they interrogate Palestinian terrorists that they get the info they do, thus stopping untold numbers of bombings, assaults, and the whereabouts of the political and military command structure...who knows how many Jews are saved due to procedures like those use at Abu Gharib
Very true. From what I've heard, however, Israel hasn't managed to stoop down to the level of some US troops. The Israelis favor psychological tactics, like locking prisoners in dark rooms and playing loud rock music, or solitary confinement. It can be argued that such tactics are allowed under Geneva. Thankfully, the US has managed to follow the examples of the Israelis closer than the action of some of our troops at Abu Ghraib, although it is sad to see that, thanks to the scandal, interrogation throughout Iraq no longer seems like a priority.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.
That's what has been said during every war since WWII. The part about the constitution is debatable, but our values have been preserved, namely, that we care that Americans live. It all traces back to both Rosseau and Locke's theory of the social contract. We need to protect as many of our people as we can, and that's why we're fighting these wars.
As for being a laughingstock, our name isn't. American culture, and even values, have been embraced in Asia, and even Africa. The only reason why Europe is being so vocal about US policy is because they've never embraced any American influence since the Marshall Plan.
If you really care about American lives, then why did your President put them at risk by attacking a defenceless Iraq? If anything, Bush has degraded American values by lying to Americans and the world, by being impatient, by being hostile, by US troops killing thousands of innocent Iraqis, by not knowing when to say I'm sorry, and by turning a blind eye to grave mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.

If you feel that your values as an American have not been comprimised by Bush league tactics, then you are not reading the posts in here. Many of your fellow countrymen and women have stated their opposition and many people outside the US have posted similar messages. Blindly following a leader who would compromise those values is the same as undermining the founding principles of your great country.

All in all, I believe Americans in particular and the western world in general is a lot more unsafe directly due to the initiatives of your President and that is a shame.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.
That's what has been said during every war since WWII. The part about the constitution is debatable, but our values have been preserved, namely, that we care that Americans live. It all traces back to both Rosseau and Locke's theory of the social contract. We need to protect as many of our people as we can, and that's why we're fighting these wars.
As for being a laughingstock, our name isn't. American culture, and even values, have been embraced in Asia, and even Africa. The only reason why Europe is being so vocal about US policy is because they've never embraced any American influence since the Marshall Plan.
If you really care about American lives, then why did your President put them at risk by attacking a defenceless Iraq? If anything, Bush has degraded American values by lying to Americans and the world, by being impatient, by being hostile, by US troops killing thousands of innocent Iraqis, by not knowing when to say I'm sorry, and by turning a blind eye to grave mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.

If you feel that your values as an American have not been comprimised by Bush league tactics, then you are not reading the posts in here. Many of your fellow countrymen and women have stated their opposition and many people outside the US have posted similar messages. Blindly following a leader who would compromise those values is the same as undermining the founding principles of your great country.

All in all, I believe Americans in particular and the western world in general is a lot more unsafe directly due to the initiatives of your President and that is a shame.

I'm sorry but I'd rather not become them just so we can fight them.

the terrorists must be laughing their butts off right now. the values Americans have fought and died for since our country was founded have been trampled, our Constitution torn and twisted, and our name reduced to a laughing insult around the world...and we did it all for them.
That's what has been said during every war since WWII. The part about the constitution is debatable, but our values have been preserved, namely, that we care that Americans live. It all traces back to both Rosseau and Locke's theory of the social contract. We need to protect as many of our people as we can, and that's why we're fighting these wars.
As for being a laughingstock, our name isn't. American culture, and even values, have been embraced in Asia, and even Africa. The only reason why Europe is being so vocal about US policy is because they've never embraced any American influence since the Marshall Plan.
If you really care about American lives, then why did your President put them at risk by attacking a defenceless Iraq? If anything, Bush has degraded American values by lying to Americans and the world, by being impatient, by being hostile, by US troops killing thousands of innocent Iraqis, by not knowing when to say I'm sorry, and by turning a blind eye to grave mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.

If you feel that your values as an American have not been comprimised by Bush league tactics, then you are not reading the posts in here. Many of your fellow countrymen and women have stated their opposition and many people outside the US have posted similar messages. Blindly following a leader who would compromise those values is the same as undermining the founding principles of your great country.

All in all, I believe Americans in particular and the western world in general is a lot more unsafe directly due to the initiatives of your President and that is a shame.

Nationsalism sucks because people get the idea that they are separate from other people and then those other peoples lives are worth less somehow and it becomes okay to kill them for the benefit of the Nation.

:(

Peace is feasible but nobody believes in it and refuse to look at ways to acheive it becauce that takes away their supremacy over others.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.

Exactly, Im beginning to think the geneva convention or how ever you spell it is out dated and no longer really serves a purpouse..at least not in this war. You say we should Follow it but do our enemies follow it? Do they follow it when they excecuted that a civilian Buy cutting off his head? Don't they blow up innocent civilains with hidden explosives just to nail a couple western troops? I dont give a care how we are supposed to treat these muderers as long as we get information we need to save lives of Innocent people. Not our faults they are shooting at us and fighting dirty.

Sometimes you have to get dirty to wrestle a pig..it'd be nice to stand up here in our Golden Tower shrouded in ideals of liberty, fraternity, and the Bill of Rights..and say.."No..we won't do that..we will not become that which we fight"..which actually isn't true..up until Ford signed an Executive Order our CIA had it in their charter the ability to use assasination of foreign leaders as a tool of foreign policy...the NSA snoops on both our enemies and allies via electronic intelligence gathering..What you have is the right hand holding the US Constitution, the left hand holding a silenced pistol.

You see...the difference is that I can after using that silenced pistol go back and sleep well under that US Constitution, cognizant that that pistol may have saved lives.Yeah, cos pistols are most commonly used to save lives, rather than end them.

You want me to shed tears over dead terrorists..sorry..none to give..and yes..that silenced pistol could save lives..American lives..and I have no problem ending their lives to save mine.

Could...very cold...But very true I'd rather save my butt than some guy would slit my throat if they got the chance :?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we need to do everything in our power to make sure that as few people as possible get hurt. Terrorists were only two days away from carrying out a plot in Amman, where the death toll could've been as high as 20,000. They have a political agenda that requires the Middle East to be a Taliban state, and they'll kill whomever stands in their way, especially the West and Japan. Added to religious conviction, they become fanatical, and it's very hard to get any information from them once they are apprehended. I'm very sorry, but extreme measures like this are neccessary.

Exactly, Im beginning to think the geneva convention or how ever you spell it is out dated and no longer really serves a purpouse..at least not in this war. You say we should Follow it but do our enemies follow it? Do they follow it when they excecuted that a civilian Buy cutting off his head? Don't they blow up innocent civilains with hidden explosives just to nail a couple western troops? I dont give a care how we are supposed to treat these muderers as long as we get information we need to save lives of Innocent people. Not our faults they are shooting at us and fighting dirty.
I've never said we should follow the Geneva conventions. I've actually tried to argue against it. However, I have said that we may be following Geneva, as sensory deprivation is allowed to an extent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3815311.stm

The Geneva Convention seems to mean nothing to Bush and his administration.

True, completely agreed. However,

I think it is becoming clear who the real terrorists are.

Actually. No. See, if the Bush administration were terrorists, then, that would mean all American (regardless of whether they supported Bush or not) are terrorists, because we all live here and tolerate it.

It's faulty logic.

Bush clearly supports terrorism by making it possible that El Qaida and Co. get more support and recruits than ever before. The American population supporting Bush, encourages him and terrorism and thus are guilty of supporting mass murder, endorsing the increase of terrorism by the hands of their President and the destruction of international law, the geneva convention and the United Nations. Clearly this cannot be left unpunished.

I think it is becoming clear who the real terrorists are.

Who would that be?

Bush clearly supports terrorism by making it possible that El Qaida and Co. get more support and recruits than ever before. The American population supporting Bush, encourages him and terrorism and thus are guilty of supporting mass murder, endorsing the increase of terrorism by the hands of their President and the destruction of international law, the geneva convention and the United Nations. Clearly this cannot be left unpunished.

Guilty by association eh? Sound pretty logical to me!!!