NationStates Jolt Archive

[Note: This thread ponders the origins of the universe.]

Well although I believe there is a God (of some shape or form) I've always wondered where God came from?

:shock: <dizzy spell>

Its kinda hard to contemplate, but God has been around for ever, you can either say that He just popped into existance one day, or that He's been around for ever.
Naturaly, people say 'Well, thats just impossible.', of course, if its impossible for something to have existed forever, then what exactly is the Universe?

God said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last."


Meaning that he remains from the beginning to the end of time.

Having a creator or having a point of creation implies being subject to time. Since time is an (EDIT: physical?) attribute of our universe, as Einstein proved, time itself was created along with the universe. Since God created the universe, he also created time. Since God created time, God must be outside of and not subject to time.

Thus, a question like "who created God" makes absolutely no sense.

(EDIT: even saying "God has been around forever" makes no sense as having been anywhere for any amount of time still implies being subject to time, which God is not.)

Ronald Reagan.

Its kinda hard to contemplate, but God has been around for ever, you can either say that He just popped into existance one day, or that He's been around for ever.
Naturaly, people say 'Well, thats just impossible.', of course, if its impossible for something to have existed forever, then what exactly is the Universe?
Which is easier to believe, a sentient being existing forever (or not subject to time but being around to create all) or particles of energy blinking in and out of existence forever? That being must have some how gotten its ability to think and such. The particles of energy are not as complex as the sentient being and so I find it the second to be most likely.

Its kinda hard to contemplate, but God has been around for ever, you can either say that He just popped into existance one day, or that He's been around for ever.
Naturaly, people say 'Well, thats just impossible.', of course, if its impossible for something to have existed forever, then what exactly is the Universe?

Which is easier to believe, a sentient being existing forever (or not subject to time but being around to create all) or particles of energy blinking in and out of existence forever? That being must have some how gotten its ability to think and such. The particles of energy are not as complex as the sentient being and so I find it the second to be most likely.


Bold above added by me.

Getting something implies that at one time that thing was not had. The statement above, therefore, suggests that the Creator is subject to time. As I have already discussed above, this is not possible. So, the bolded statement above does not make any sense and is false.

(EDIT: and particles "blinking in and out of existance forever" is just as difficult to believe. If these particles exist within our universe, they are subject to time and therefore have a point of creation. When and where were these particles created? If the idea of a creator god who exists "forever" is difficult to believe, then surely the idea of particles which exist "forever" is equally difficult, especially considering that the container in which the particle exists has not itself existed forever.

Frankly the idea of the creator god is easier to believe as such a creator is outside of and non-subject to time, so this fundamental problem is solved.)

I sthis one of those chicken and the egg things....

I created god http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-006.gif

I sthis one of those chicken and the egg things....

I don't think so. Basically, God had to have been created from something or someone...right? Except...we don't know what...or do we?

I sthis one of those chicken and the egg things....

I don't think so. Basically, God had to have been created from something or someone...right? Except...we don't know what...or do we?but what if god created people, and people creatd god..as early people did im their mind.. then who cam first

I sthis one of those chicken and the egg things....

I don't think so. Basically, God had to have been created from something or someone...right? Except...we don't know what...or do we?but what if god created people, and people creatd god..as early people did im their mind.. then who cam first

I created god http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-006.gif

Except if your a Christian, the arguement doesnt matter.

As far as Im concerned you can beleive that Earth was created by nematoads, as long as you dont try to cut my hear out to make the sun rise Im fine.

Of course, in the end you'll see, unfourtunatly, sorry for being a bit rude, youll have to see it during a long drop into a rather unpleasant lake.

Having a creator or having a point of creation implies being subject to time. Since time is an (EDIT: physical?) attribute of our universe, as Einstein proved, time itself was created along with the universe. Since God created the universe, he also created time. Since God created time, God must be outside of and not subject to time.

Thus, a question like "who created God" makes absolutely no sense.

(EDIT: even saying "God has been around forever" makes no sense as having been anywhere for any amount of time still implies being subject to time, which God is not.)

First of all, Einstein proved nothing of the sort. He simply proposed one alternative way to conceptualize time based on sets of data. There is no way to prove that time is a physical property. He spent much of the latter portion of his career trying to disprove a different theory (quantam mechanics) in vain; he only succeeded in lending great creedence to the theory's claims. Time cannot be safely assumed to be a phycial property of the universerse and as such, any conclusions based on this premise are undermined.

Second, Einstein's General Relativity deals with what I will call calibrated time. This is time as kept track of with a clock or watch or some other time telling device. It does not deal with what I will call sequential time, which is a general since of sequence; before and after, past and present. Saying that calibrated time is physical and thus is a part of creation does not imply that sequential time operates similarly.

Thirdly, I would just like to point out that a logical examination of possible origins of the univererse is destined to fail. The arguement is often made that the nature of causation implies that an original cause (God) exists. Eevery event in the universe is caused by another event, which is in turn caused by another. If one could regress along the chain of causality, one would necessarily have to come to some first cause. And this first cause is God. However, the problem here is that anyone who makes this argument fails to extend their logic properly. If everything has a cause, then God must have a cause as well. If God does not have a cause, then is it not just as possible that the Universe is the ultimate uncaused cause? And so we are brought right back to the beginning. Most arguements of this type go this way. At the current state of knowledge it is impossible to use logic to come to conclusions about the existance of God. You just have to decide whether or not you believe.

But there has to be a begining, so what was the first cause?
God.

God created man, and man created God. The chicken/egg problem can be circumvented by assuming that 'we' created a God who is said to have created us; but this doesn't mean that God actually has.

Oh, and the egg was first. Here's why: it all started out with pre-historic chicken-like animals, who started evolving, until one day, a near-chicken laid the egg from which would emerge the first, real, chicken.

As an atheist, God did not create man because there is no God. The question is therefore irrelevant to me! :D

As an atheist, God did not create man because there is no God. The question is therefore irrelevant to me! :D
Make sure you have lots of suntan lotion in your coffin :wink:

But there has to be a begining, so what was the first cause?
God.
Why does there have to be a beginning? What law of metaphysics are you basing that on? If anything there is evidence against a beginning. "Matter cannot be either created or destroyed."

:lol: Good idea!

As an atheist, God did not create man because there is no God. The question is therefore irrelevant to me! :D

But...but...but...you are conservative :shock: :shock: :shock: LOL...well there are a few aspects of my life which break the conservative image too :lol:

As an atheist, God did not create man because there is no God. The question is therefore irrelevant to me! :D

What? There is a god...there is a god to stop me from becoming god http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-006.gif

I am a centrist with conservative leanings and an atheist. A great combination!

But there has to be a begining, so what was the first cause?
God.
Why does there have to be a beginning? What law of metaphysics are you basing that on? If anything there is evidence against a beginning. "Matter cannot be either created or destroyed."
SO where did the matter come from, if everything has a cause it has to be caused\, otherwise it doesnt happen.

Man

God created man, and man created God. The chicken/egg problem can be circumvented by assuming that 'we' created a God who is said to have created us; but this doesn't mean that God actually has.

Oh, and the egg was first. Here's why: it all started out with pre-historic chicken-like animals, who started evolving, until one day, a near-chicken laid the egg from which would emerge the first, real, chicken.so your sayiong god evoldved fro godlike animals :?

then who created teh god like animals...or did we jus6t create them by thinking of them :?

It is hard to prove something that does not exist. And it is even harder to prove what caused this something that doesnt exist... so this illusionary thing called "god" by some backwards people, should instead be proven to exist, before we debate what existed before it.

Can God create a stone he can't lift?

Either he can create the stone, or he cannot.

If he can, he's not omnipotent, because he can't lift it.

If he can't he's not omnipotent, because he can't.

Therefore God cannot be omnipotent.

so your sayiong god evoldved fro godlike animals :?

then who created teh god like animals...or did we jus6t create them by thinking of them :?

And I thought my keyboard skills were bad...actually they are.

I think they meant that Man invented God to explain the existence of the Earth etc rather than God evolving from God-like animals.

I am a centrist with conservative leanings and an atheist. A great combination!

LOL indeed. I have been accused of being a "rogue lefty" before. Of course, I do not fit the conservative stereotype 100%:

1. God fearing
2. Privatise everything including the kitchen sink
3. Corporate governance

etc

I am more centre-right, probably like you. However I do believe in God...but I am not sure about any actual religious teachings. I see God as something no religion could ever hope to preach about.

Of course...I am going to hell anyway...at least according to the Church.

It is hard to prove something that does not exist. And it is even harder to prove what caused this something that doesnt exist... so this illusionary thing called "god" by some backwards people, should instead be proven to exist, before we debate what existed before it.

A fellow atheist?

He was created, He just was. He is outside of time.

so your sayiong god evoldved fro godlike animals :?

then who created teh god like animals...or did we jus6t create them by thinking of them :?

And I thought my keyboard skills were bad...actually they are.

I think they meant that Man invented God to explain the existence of the Earth etc rather than God evolving from God-like animals.( ti athajlme its as a complimetnt)

WTF DOES THTA MEAN!!! (whta i just said)

but then...who created us?

God created man, and man created God. The chicken/egg problem can be circumvented by assuming that 'we' created a God who is said to have created us; but this doesn't mean that God actually has.

Oh, and the egg was first. Here's why: it all started out with pre-historic chicken-like animals, who started evolving, until one day, a near-chicken laid the egg from which would emerge the first, real, chicken.so your sayiong god evoldved fro godlike animals :?

then who created teh god like animals...or did we jus6t create them by thinking of them :?


No, no! You're getting it mixed up. :)
God and the chicken are not to be taken in the same sense.

Man created a God-concept in which God created us all. No matter how man came into being (personally I prefer evolution theory), the God-concept says it was God who created us. Hence God created us, and we created God.

The egg/chicken thing is an entirely different matter. :)


I think they meant that Man invented God to explain the existence of the Earth etc rather than God evolving from God-like animals.

That's it.

Of course, this still doesn't explain who, if anyone, created us... but it certainly weren't the chickens.

I am a centrist with conservative leanings and an atheist. A great combination!

LOL indeed. I have been accused of being a "rogue lefty" before. Of course, I do not fit the conservative stereotype 100%:

1. God fearing
2. Privatise everything including the kitchen sink
3. Corporate governance

etc

I am more centre-right, probably like you. However I do believe in God...but I am not sure about any actual religious teachings. I see God as something no religion could ever hope to preach about.

Of course...I am going to hell anyway...at least according to the Church.

Yes, I am headed to the land of fire and brimstone too according to most people. Unfortunate because I don't like hot weather much but I'll make the best of it.

SO where did the matter come from, if everything has a cause it has to be caused\, otherwise it doesnt happen.
It has always been there. Always means always. Matter cannot be created.

... God came from himself. because he is. dont try and dispute it. :P

You know it's true.

I believe that man created god as an early means to explain why the world works. Why does the grass grow? Because god said so. Why is man here? To do god's bidding.

Now though, it's How does the grass grow? Because it blah blah blah. How did man get here? Because we blah blah blah.

Like phrenology, I believe god was an early attempt to explain why the world works (except phrenology was more of a how and has nothing to do with religion at all :)) but can still be used today to explain things that science cannot. But neither really have any proof over the other, although most things can be explained by science (like why the sky is blue, why magnets work). Interesting how they overlap.

In conclusion to my pointless ramble of complete crap, I believe that man created god.

Can God create a stone he can't lift?

Either he can create the stone, or he cannot.

If he can, he's not omnipotent, because he can't lift it.

If he can't he's not omnipotent, because he can't.

Therefore God cannot be omnipotent.

This argument is meaningless. It's like asking the question, "Can God creat a square-circle?" By definition, you are arguing a contradiction, and saying that God can't do something that God can't do. This has no meaning.

This is like asking if God can lie. God is Truth (Truth Itself, or the fullness of Truth, or whatever form of ideal you want), and therefore, for God to lie is impossible. However, this is not a limit on God, because it is God's very nature, and lying is defined only in terms of an absence of God's Truth.

As for the original question, God is a being outside of time, and is neccesarily the cause of time. This is because past time is finite and not infinite (otherwise present time would've never occured), and thus past time must've had a cause that was not within time. This cause for past time that is outside of time is that being which we call God.

God created man, and man created God. The chicken/egg problem can be circumvented by assuming that 'we' created a God who is said to have created us; but this doesn't mean that God actually has.

Oh, and the egg was first. Here's why: it all started out with pre-historic chicken-like animals, who started evolving, until one day, a near-chicken laid the egg from which would emerge the first, real, chicken.so your sayiong god evoldved fro godlike animals :?

then who created teh god like animals...or did we jus6t create them by thinking of them :?


No, no! You're getting it mixed up. :)
God and the chicken are not to be taken in the same sense.

Man created a God-concept in which God created us all. No matter how man came into being (personally I prefer evolution theory), the God-concept says it was God who created us. Hence God created us, and we created God.

The egg/chicken thing is an entirely different matter. :)

I just tried to explain that to Lapse, hopefully your effort will be more successful.

Noone created man, we evolved!

Yes, I am headed to the land of fire and brimstone too according to most people. Unfortunate because I don't like hot weather much but I'll make the best of it.

You are welcome to come over for a beer at my villa beside the lakes of hell fire...I got the place for a good price. It is fully airconditioned (average temp 250 Celcius) and it sure beats those hot days of 5000 Celcius.

God created man, and man created God. The chicken/egg problem can be circumvented by assuming that 'we' created a God who is said to have created us; but this doesn't mean that God actually has.

Oh, and the egg was first. Here's why: it all started out with pre-historic chicken-like animals, who started evolving, until one day, a near-chicken laid the egg from which would emerge the first, real, chicken.so your sayiong god evoldved fro godlike animals :?

then who created teh god like animals...or did we jus6t create them by thinking of them :?


No, no! You're getting it mixed up. :)
God and the chicken are not to be taken in the same sense.

Man created a God-concept in which God created us all. No matter how man came into being (personally I prefer evolution theory), the God-concept says it was God who created us. Hence God created us, and we created God.

The egg/chicken thing is an entirely different matter. :)


I think they meant that Man invented God to explain the existence of the Earth etc rather than God evolving from God-like animals.

That's it.so... we created god..but didnt god create us?

I believe that man created god as an early means to explain why the world works. Why does the grass grow? Because god said so. Why is man here? To do god's bidding.

Now though, it's How does the grass grow? Because it blah blah blah. How did man get here? Because we blah blah blah.

Like phrenology, I believe god was an early attempt to explain why the world works (except phrenology was more of a how and has nothing to do with religion at all :)) but can still be used today to explain things that science cannot. But neither really have any proof over the other, although most things can be explained by science (like why the sky is blue, why magnets work). Interesting how they overlap.

In conclusion to my pointless ramble of complete crap, I believe that man created god.

Like the ancient Greeks. They used to think, for instance, that it rained because Zeus was peeing over the lands...

I believe that man created god as an early means to explain why the world works. Why does the grass grow? Because god said so. Why is man here? To do god's bidding.

Now though, it's How does the grass grow? Because it blah blah blah. How did man get here? Because we blah blah blah.

Like phrenology, I believe god was an early attempt to explain why the world works (except phrenology was more of a how and has nothing to do with religion at all :)) but can still be used today to explain things that science cannot. But neither really have any proof over the other, although most things can be explained by science (like why the sky is blue, why magnets work). Interesting how they overlap.

In conclusion to my pointless ramble of complete crap, I believe that man created god.

Now can you explain that theory to Lapse?

Oh man, where's Troll? He and I made a series of posts in one topic about how awsome hell is gonna be :p

I mean, common, all the cool peopole are going!

so... we created god..but didnt god create us?

Perhaps we'll never know. :)

I believe that man created god as an early means to explain why the world works. Why does the grass grow? Because god said so. Why is man here? To do god's bidding.

Now though, it's How does the grass grow? Because it blah blah blah. How did man get here? Because we blah blah blah.

Like phrenology, I believe god was an early attempt to explain why the world works (except phrenology was more of a how and has nothing to do with religion at all :)) but can still be used today to explain things that science cannot. But neither really have any proof over the other, although most things can be explained by science (like why the sky is blue, why magnets work). Interesting how they overlap.

In conclusion to my pointless ramble of complete crap, I believe that man created god.

Now can you explain that theory to Lapse?

I could but he's not seriously arguing. He's just doing it to annoy a few of you :). I know this because he's told me his entire evil plan over MSN :D.

Wimmelsburg: Exactly! Thats what I'm getting at!

Yes, I am headed to the land of fire and brimstone too according to most people. Unfortunate because I don't like hot weather much but I'll make the best of it.

You are welcome to come over for a beer at my villa beside the lakes of hell fire...I got the place for a good price. It is fully airconditioned (average temp 250 Celcius) and it sure beats those hot days of 5000 Celcius.

As long as the beer is not at room temperature...surely even the devil himself has cold beer?

I could but he's not seriously arguing. He's just doing it to annoy a few of you :). I know this because he's told me his entire evil plan over MSN :D.

Wimmelsburg: Exactly! Thats what I'm getting at!

Flamebaiting.....whaere is Smeagol-Gollum when you need him.

PS: I am kidding

As long as the beer is not at room temperature...surely even the devil himself has cold beer?

:lol: Yeah definately.

Flamebaiting.....whaere is Smeagol-Gollum when you need him.

PS: I am kidding

Hehe, don't worry. Lapse'll get distracted by something sooner or later. Speaking of distractions there's a blue car parked outside my house.

As long as the beer is not at room temperature...surely even the devil himself has cold beer?

:lol: Yeah definately.

Eternal damnation is not looking so bad afterall then. Now to get over that sunburn.... :oops:

Let me put it this way.

According to Revelations, only 144,000 people will be saved.

The world has a lot more then 144,000 people living in it today alone.

Sure, we might get some assholes, but hey-we get rid of the annoying Christians!

(Note: before I get flamed, I'm just joking around like I do quite often. Quite a few of my friends are Christians :p)

I believe that man created god as an early means to explain why the world works. Why does the grass grow? Because god said so. Why is man here? To do god's bidding.

Now though, it's How does the grass grow? Because it blah blah blah. How did man get here? Because we blah blah blah.

Like phrenology, I believe god was an early attempt to explain why the world works (except phrenology was more of a how and has nothing to do with religion at all :)) but can still be used today to explain things that science cannot. But neither really have any proof over the other, although most things can be explained by science (like why the sky is blue, why magnets work). Interesting how they overlap.

In conclusion to my pointless ramble of complete crap, I believe that man created god.

Now can you explain that theory to Lapse?

I could but he's not seriously arguing. He's just doing it to annoy a few of you :). I know this because he's told me his entire evil plan over MSN :D.

Wimmelsburg: Exactly! Thats what I'm getting at!Not so much annoying, just a bit of post whoring mixed up witha few meaningless facts to confuse you so much you dont know the difference between god and a chicken in the ned :P

Im a bit confused aboiut the phrenologyu bit... isnt phrenology explaining the shjap e of peopels head... which kind of has nothing to do with chickens, eggs,. god, or evben people...

but, now, what i have come dfown to by some looking at historty is that goid evolved from the chicken, who was in the egg top m,ake us... Brilliant...

As long as the beer is not at room temperature...surely even the devil himself has cold beer?

:lol: Yeah definately.

Eternal damnation is not looking so bad afterall then. Now to get over that sunburn.... :oops:

Yeah...but you know I have a theory on heaven and hell...

Christians may say hell is bad because they want to hide to truth that it is a 24/7 party land with booze fountains, 5 chicks for every guy & vice versa (also same-sex too), loud music, cable sports, etc! Heaven is a real bore where you pray most of the time and wear white cotton overalls that are extremely dull.

That is just a theory, not actual fact...as yet :wink:

But there has to be a begining, so what was the first cause?
God.
Why does there have to be a beginning? What law of metaphysics are you basing that on? If anything there is evidence against a beginning. "Matter cannot be either created or destroyed."

That rule applies to matter within our universe. No one I am aware of has observed the outside of the universe, so to conclude that the rule also applies out there (if there is an out there at all *headache*) is a false assumption.

God simply created the universe read-only and with no delete button :wink:

(EDIT: In fact, I have written several cellular automata programs, Conway's game of life specifically. In all my programs, cells cannot be created or destroyed while the program is being used, their states can only change; the programs create the cells at start-up and destroy them at close, but they deny the user the same ability. The fact that these programs basically obey the rule given above, "[Cells] cannot be either created or destroyed" by the user, does not negate the fact that I wrote the program. :wink: )

I have a God-theory of my own, btw, and I'm going to lay it on you whether you like it or not. :)

Every human being has a higher self, a spiritual being as it where, which makes up your conscience and so on. Those people who believe in god(s), simply unite their higher beings into one giant being, the deity. The thusly 'created' deity can only exist as long as there are people who put their higher selves into them, and his power waxes and wanes with the number of higher beings incorporated into it. This also means that a deity only has power over the people whose higher selves make it up.

I think I should work on this theory some more.

Some of you may find your answers here (http://www.infidelguy.com).

Some say that God is the universe. If he weren't, then there would be something that's bigger than God: namely God + the universe.

But then that's assuming that nothing can be bigger than god... How many angels fit on a pinhead? :)

SO where did the matter come from, if everything has a cause it has to be caused\, otherwise it doesnt happen.
It has always been there. Always means always. Matter cannot be created.
But the theory also says that matter cannot be destroyed, we know this is not true now because we know antimatter exists, matter and antimatter annihilate each other.
So if half the theory is wrong, it brings the other half into question.

How many angels fit on a pinhead? :)

Depends on how big the pinhead is.

This is what i ahve worked out so far:

http://img72.photobucket.com/albums/v219/time_lapse/godpeople.gif

SO where did the matter come from, if everything has a cause it has to be caused\, otherwise it doesnt happen.
It has always been there. Always means always. Matter cannot be created.
But the theory also says that matter cannot be destroyed, we know this is not true now because we know antimatter exists, matter and antimatter annihilate each other.
So if half the theory is wrong, it brings the other half into question.

Incorrect. When matter and antimatter react, matter (EDIT: and the antimatter are) not destroyed. They change state and are converted into energy. Thus the rule is maintained. One could only claim that they are destroyed if they disappear and no energy is produced. In reality, this is not the case, as a whole lot of energy is produced by the reaction. :wink:

And if I recall correctly, the reaction is extremely efficient, but not perfect.
If I also recall correctly, the "antimatter" is real and physical like any old matter, only the charges, spins and other attributes are reversed.

I am an atheist. And I'll say again, that it is hard (if not impossible) to prove something that does not exist. Of course, saying that "god" is "outside fo the universe and time" makes it impossible to prove its existence, conveniently making it obvious that proving its existence is a hopeless task since nobody can see beyond the universe or know what existed before time itself. Why is this "god" that far away and has to care for an entire universe and still finds the time to love each and every living thing on earth? It was once believed that earth is flat, that earth is the center of the universe or that "god" created Earth 6000 years ago within 7 days, with everthing on it. Quite honestly, I am tired of the science-fiction stories made up by religion, to the point that I'll question every religious person's sanity if this keeps up for much longer.

This is what i ahve worked out so far:

http://img72.photobucket.com/albums/v219/time_lapse/godpeople.gif


I think that about sums it up.

This is what i ahve worked out so far:

http://img72.photobucket.com/albums/v219/time_lapse/godpeople.gif

WOW! :shock:

As a Xenogears fanatic... (All other fans out there raise your voice!)

1- God never existed

2- Humans create god

3- Later humans disappointed find out there is no god

4- Finally humans become god.

Millions years of history narrowed down to four steps. It's completely self-explanatory really.

This is what i ahve worked out so far:

http://img72.photobucket.com/albums/v219/time_lapse/godpeople.gif

That's absolutly beautiful.

Can I save a copy of that? I think I've had several revelations just glancing at it O_____O :shock:

We'll become gods when mankind has learned to overcome all of its problems and when we can do with matter and antimatter, with time and all of the universe, what we wish. Thats still ways off and I cant imagine what it would be like, but it surely is a nice future.. if we make it that far.

NO MORE POSTING OF THAT PICTURE PLEASE. IT IS WASTING SPACE.

This is what i ahve worked out so far:


(not to mention my bndwidth :P

I think that about sums it up.yep... argument done :d

I am an atheist. And I'll say again, that it is hard (if not impossible) to prove something that does not exist .... I am tired of the science-fiction stories made up by religion, to the point that I'll question every religious person's sanity if this keeps up for much longer.

Is not atheism's claim that God does not exist just as much an assumption as the claim that he does? True, we cannot poke our heads out of the universe to show He is there, but at the same time we cannot poke our heads out to show that he is not.

Don't tell me that atheism is the logical conclusion as theist claims cannot be proven. What you made above was an absolute statement that God does not exist. Obviously, it cannot be proven absolutely that something does not exist, as this "is hard (if not impossible)." Ergo, your statement above is made on faith, and dare I say, is just as religious as any of the other science-fiction stories people make up.

Welcome to the nut house. :D

Here's a quite from that infidelguy.com website:

ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist.

You used a lot of big words that I didn't understand :)

I still think the picture is right

I prefer saying that something does not exist until someone has shown me that it exists. As long as we dont know with proof, that something does exist, it logically does not exist for us (mankind).

As long as the beer is not at room temperature...surely even the devil himself has cold beer?

:lol: Yeah definately.

Eternal damnation is not looking so bad afterall then. Now to get over that sunburn.... :oops:

Yeah...but you know I have a theory on heaven and hell...

Christians may say hell is bad because they want to hide to truth that it is a 24/7 party land with booze fountains, 5 chicks for every guy & vice versa (also same-sex too), loud music, cable sports, etc! Heaven is a real bore where you pray most of the time and wear white cotton overalls that are extremely dull.

That is just a theory, not actual fact...as yet :wink:

I hope you are right! Seeing as I am missing out on Euro 2004 for my lack of cable TV.

Here's a quite from that infidelguy.com website:

ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist.


I remember learning something like that in algebra....

Another quote:


ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

Yay for more big not understood words! ^_^

I prefer saying that something does not exist until someone has shown me that it exists. As long as we dont know with proof, that something does exist, it logically does not exist for us (mankind).

If a tree fell on an uninhabited island, and no-one was there to witness it, did it actually make noise?

Of course it does. There's always something to hear the noise. Just because a HUMAN doesn't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You arrogent people you :p

I am an atheist. And I'll say again, that it is hard (if not impossible) to prove something that does not exist .... I am tired of the science-fiction stories made up by religion, to the point that I'll question every religious person's sanity if this keeps up for much longer.

Is not atheism's claim that God does not exist just as much an assumption as the claim that he does? True, we cannot poke our heads out of the universe to show He is there, but at the same time we cannot poke our heads out to show that he is not.

Don't tell me that atheism is the logical conclusion as theist claims cannot be proven. What you made above was an absolute statement that God does not exist. Obviously, it cannot be proven absolutely that something does not exist, as this "is hard (if not impossible)." Ergo, your statement above is made on faith, and dare I say, is just as religious as any of the other science-fiction stories people make up.

Welcome to the nut house. :D

god does not exist..have faith..he does not exist

I prefer saying that something does not exist until someone has shown me that it exists. As long as we dont know with proof, that something does exist, it logically does not exist for us (mankind).

If a tree fell on an uninhabited island, and no-one was there to witness it, did it actually make noise?

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

Yet another quote:

Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will?

And another quote:

Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all.

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

What if the tree fell in outer space? :)

(Ok, sorry, I'm being lame here. Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

And yet another quote:

If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

More quote:

ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

I think we get the point, Gigatron. :)

And more quote for you:

Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence.

I prefer saying that something does not exist until someone has shown me that it exists. As long as we dont know with proof, that something does exist, it logically does not exist for us (mankind).

Unfortunately, that is not logical. :wink:

The state of being proven does not determine existance. Everything that has been discovered at one time was unproven, and yet still existed. The planets, afterall, didn't just wink into existance when man pointed a telescope into the sky for the first time. They existed for eons before mankind. It is not their fault that mankind is slow to learn. :wink:

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, the statement that God "logically does not exist for us" is false. It is a belief based on faith, the desire that it be true.

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

What if the tree fell in outer space? :)

(Ok, sorry, I'm being lame here. Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

I would ask how it got there.

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, ...

Schrödinger's God.


I would ask how it got there.

Who knows. Perhaps it was blasted off of earth.

(Lapse, I think you better include spacefaring trees in your chart.)

By the way lapse you mispelled "Phrenology" on your picture :D

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

What if the tree fell in outer space? :)

(Ok, sorry, I'm being lame here. Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)well.. technically bthere is gravity...just very little...

I prefer saying that something does not exist until someone has shown me that it exists. As long as we dont know with proof, that something does exist, it logically does not exist for us (mankind).

If a tree fell on an uninhabited island, and no-one was there to witness it, did it actually make noise?

This particular instance of noise is unobserved, yes, however, other instances of noise have been observed. So, (EDIT: any comparison of) this hypothetical situation to the situation of God is incorrect. At any rate, it depends on how "noise" is defined. Is noise the movement of a wave through the air, or is it the result of the intrepretation of electrical signals in the brain? If it is the first, then the answer is yes. If the second, the answer is no.

By the way lapse you mispelled "Phrenology" on your picture :Dyour point being?

If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would you still believe? And why?

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, ...

Schrödinger's God.

I was thinking the same too. What if God is a cat? :shock:

By the way lapse you mispelled "Phrenology" on your picture :Dyour point being? That your picture just got shot down in flames :D also Phrenology has nothing to do with religion and it's not even that much of a science. So I have no idea how you managed to connect it...

By the way lapse you mispelled "Phrenology" on your picture :Dyour point being? That your picture just got shot down in flames :D also Phrenology has nothing to do with religion and it's not even that much of a science. So I have no idea how you managed to connect it...Um..i think you totally missed the point. Why ndont you click the little button on your window that says [3] and re-read that page :wink:

Pretty much because I have and already seen it. But I already know you're just trying to stirr things up, so no harm done :D

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

...Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

Incorrect. As long as there is mass present, gravity is present. Sound is even present, if one happens to pass through a sufficiently dense gas or dust cloud of somekind. Our atmosphere is simply a gas cloud in outer space, even if it is trapped by a large gravitational body.

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, ...

Schrödinger's God.

I was thinking the same too. What if God is a cat? :shock:

He can't be... after all, he's said to have created us in his image. We aren't cats, so God isn't one either.

As Jeremy Irons says in the movie "The Time Machine":

"You are a man haunted by those two most terrible words: What if..."

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, ...

Schrödinger's God.

I was thinking the same too. What if God is a cat? :shock:

He can't be... after all, he's said to have created us in his image. We aren't cats, so God isn't one either.

If "image" refers to actual physical characteristics, then why am I not all-present and all-powerful? :wink: Instead, I think "in his image" refers to things like emotion and rationality. If our ultimate existance is spiritual, then physical characteristics are of little consequence.

Pretty much because I have and already seen it. But I already know you're just trying to stirr things up, so no harm done :Dum... i think you should reconsider this. Im here to have a good time, and also conuse people. I am unsure as to your position, anywa..enough of this

did we decide god or people cam first... or the god like chickens?

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

...Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

Incorrect. As long as there is mass present, gravity is present. Sound is even present, if one happens to pass through a sufficiently dense gas or dust cloud of somekind. Our atmosphere is simply a gas cloud in outer space, even if it is trapped by a large gravitational body.

That doesn't make much sense... if there is gravity in space (not talking about garvity related to objects, assume you're free of gravitational pull of other objects) then why do things float? If there is no opposing force acting on them, then how can there be gravity? There can be motion if someone pushes the object or if an asteroid crushes it into nothing, but until then, there isn't any gravity until it goes somewhere...

Also sound doesn't travel in space unless it has a medium to pass through. With the exception of the mediums you already suggested, there's nothing else for it to pass through.

Just curious where you got this from.

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, ...

Schrödinger's God.

I was thinking the same too. What if God is a cat? :shock:

If God exists (which he doesn't) then I would be happy for God to be a cat.

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

...Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

Incorrect. As long as there is mass present, gravity is present. Sound is even present, if one happens to pass through a sufficiently dense gas or dust cloud of somekind. Our atmosphere is simply a gas cloud in outer space, even if it is trapped by a large gravitational body.

That doesn't make much sense... if there is gravity in space (not talking about garvity related to objects, assume you're free of gravitational pull of other objects) then why do things float? If there is no opposing force acting on them, then how can there be gravity? There can be motion if someone pushes the object or if an asteroid crushes it into nothing, but until then, there isn't any gravity until it goes somewhere...

Also sound doesn't travel in space unless it has a medium to pass through. With the exception of the mediums you already suggested, there's nothing else for it to pass through.

Just curious where you got this from.
gravity is exerted by every mass. That is what keeps the planets, orbiting the sun, and our galaxy together. If there wasnt gravity everywher Earth would probbly just drift off into some other place and earth would die

As both possibilities, that God exists and that God does not exist, are valid, ...

Schrödinger's God.

I was thinking the same too. What if God is a cat? :shock:

If God exists (which he doesn't) then I would be happy for God to be a cat.

Unless you were a mouse, of course.

Unless you were a mouse, of course.

Yes, but if God were a cat would he have created dogs?

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

...Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

Incorrect. As long as there is mass present, gravity is present. Sound is even present, if one happens to pass through a sufficiently dense gas or dust cloud of somekind. Our atmosphere is simply a gas cloud in outer space, even if it is trapped by a large gravitational body.

That doesn't make much sense... if there is gravity in space (not talking about garvity related to objects, assume you're free of gravitational pull of other objects) then why do things float? If there is no opposing force acting on them, then how can there be gravity? There can be motion if someone pushes the object or if an asteroid crushes it into nothing, but until then, there isn't any gravity until it goes somewhere...

Also sound doesn't travel in space unless it has a medium to pass through. With the exception of the mediums you already suggested, there's nothing else for it to pass through.

Just curious where you got this from.
gravity is exerted by every mass. That is what keeps the planets, orbiting the sun, and our galaxy together. If there wasnt gravity everywher Earth would probbly just drift off into some other place and earth would die

But the forces are balanced, also, we don't entirely know what keeps the universe together. Human understanding isn't quite at that stage yet. What keeps the galaxy around that centre point? What is in between the galaxies?

Imagine a pen far away from any influences. If it was possible to leave it there without moving it, what would you expect it to do? Sit there, since there's no force acting on it to move it. The forces are balanced right? Otherwise it would move. So gravity isn't really acting upon it, at least not enough to actually affect it. It's not really gravity. If you put a pin next to that pen, what would you expect it to do?

And you still didn't cover my comment about sound in space, in areas where there is no gas.

Based on evidence from previous trees that fell and the noise was heard by one or more humans it is logical to conclude said tree made noise when it fell despite the fact no human heard it.

...Trees cannot fall in outer space. There's no gravity.)

Incorrect. As long as there is mass present, gravity is present. Sound is even present, if one happens to pass through a sufficiently dense gas or dust cloud of somekind. Our atmosphere is simply a gas cloud in outer space, even if it is trapped by a large gravitational body.

That doesn't make much sense... if there is gravity in space (not talking about garvity related to objects, assume you're free of gravitational pull of other objects) then why do things float?


Things do not "float" in space. Bouyancy is a property of solid objects resting on the surface of liquid. :wink: What about weightlessness? Weight a measure of an objects resistance to a (EDIT: change in motion or inertia). When I stand on earth, I am pulled towards earth's center, yet the surface provides resistance. My "weight" is a measure of this resistance. When I am falling in space (this is what everything in our observed universe is doing...falling), I register no weight because I am moving towards a gravitational well with no resistance.

However, so long as there is any matter in existance, no matter how far away, I am subject to its gravity and am falling towards it. To which object I (EDIT: ultimately) fall is simply determined by proximity and how strong each gravitational pull is. (EDIT: even standing on Earth, I am falling towards the Sun, as Earth itself is falling towards the Sun.)


If there is no opposing force acting on them, then how can there be gravity?


The entire observed universe is chock full o' mass. Such a totally forceless state is most likely, if not completely, impossible. Again, when an astronaut is in orbit or in space in general, he is not free of opposing forces. Indeed, to orbit the planet is to fall towards it. The rate at which he falls may be very small, but he is falling nonetheless.


There can be motion if someone pushes the object or if an asteroid crushes it into nothing, but until then, there isn't any gravity until it goes somewhere...


Incorrect. Not only is the object not likely to escape any other object's gravity absolutely, but the object itself, no matter how infinitely small you pulverize it, exerts it's own gravity. Gravity is not an attribute of only stars and planets. All mass exerts gravity.


Also sound doesn't travel in space unless it has a medium to pass through. With the exception of the mediums you already suggested, there's nothing else for it to pass through.


Even the deepest of space within our observed universe has hydrogen gas in it. Sure this gas many be fantastically thin, but that medium is still there. (EDIT: And it too exerts gravity.)

Just curious where you got this from.

Observational Astronomy

Unless you were a mouse, of course.

Yes, but if God were a cat would he have created dogs?

Probably. After all, he's supposed to have created Satan and the atheists as well. (Not meaning to say that atheists are dogs, of course...)

:idea: the universe is infinite, so every possible sequence of events can be said to have happened an infinite number of times, so everything created many gods.

But there has to be a begining, so what was the first cause?
God.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily true.

For humans all things have a beginning and an end, therefore it is impossible for our minds to conceive of something which has always existed and always will.

However, if the big bang theory is correct and if time ceases to exist then as i understand it, God will also cease existing....

But the forces are balanced, also, we don't entirely know what keeps the universe together. Human understanding isn't quite at that stage yet. What keeps the galaxy around that centre point? What is in between the galaxies?

The forces aren't balanced. Orbits (planetary, solar, galaxy, anything) are a matter of simple rotational forces. The only thing that stops a satellite falling to the earth is the speed at which it is travelling. As an experiment, get a weight and tie it on to a string. Spin it. The string behaves like gravity does and holds the object, but in space if you go too fast the satellite will fly out of orbit ;)

As another thing, you exert a gravitational force on the earth, a very small one, but if you were in space you would be moving the earth towards you ever so slightly. Physics is fun ;)

But there has to be a begining, so what was the first cause?
God.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily true.

For humans all things have a beginning and an end, therefore it is impossible for our minds to conceive of something which has always existed and always will.

However, if the big bang theory is correct and if time ceases to exist then as i understand it, God will also cease existing....

It all depends on who god is and where [s]he exists. Don't forget that we can only perceive four dimensions (time+the three others), and there may be many more. Moreover, we can't tell if there's an edge to the universe, god may exists outside the universe and therefore won't be affected by what happens to it. Lastly, there may be no god at all...

I agree though, our brains are hard wired to envisage beginnings and ends, we have a very hard time imagining infinite time spaces.

How would you move Earth towards you? For that Earth has too much kinetic energy as it is traveling through space. Your little gravitation cannot overcome this force, so Earth would remain "unimpressed" by you. You however, would inevitably fall back to Earth, unless you are far enough away so the gravitational force of Earth cannot affect you anymore.

While writing this, I pondered how mankind came to call the planet "Earth" or "World" or whatever word all languages use for our nice blue planet...

You can wonder that about everything. Why do we call this the 'General forum'? Why am I making a 'post' and not a 'chair'?

How would you move Earth towards you? For that Earth has too much kinetic energy as it is traveling through space. Your little gravitation cannot overcome this force, so Earth would remain "unimpressed" by you.


The gravitational pull exerted by your body would not pull Earth towards you to any measurable degree. It would, however, pull you towards Earth just as Earth pulls you towards Earth. :wink: Your gravitational pull is not enough to overcome Earth's inertia to any degree that matters. Your gravitational pull combined with Earth's gravitational pull, however, is more than enough to overcome your inertia.


While writing this, I pondered how mankind came to call the planet "Earth" or "World" or whatever word all languages use for our nice blue planet...

All languages use "Earth" as our planets name...but only after you translate to English. :wink:

But the forces are balanced, also, we don't entirely know what keeps the universe together. Human understanding isn't quite at that stage yet. What keeps the galaxy around that centre point? What is in between the galaxies?

The forces aren't balanced. Orbits (planetary, solar, galaxy, anything) are a matter of simple rotational forces. The only thing that stops a satellite falling to the earth is the speed at which it is travelling. As an experiment, get a weight and tie it on to a string. Spin it. The string behaves like gravity does and holds the object, but in space if you go too fast the satellite will fly out of orbit ;)

As another thing, you exert a gravitational force on the earth, a very small one, but if you were in space you would be moving the earth towards you ever so slightly. Physics is fun ;)force = mass * velocity squared divided by the radius

gahh... physics will never leave me :|

Serious part:

there is actually only 2 answers to this forum
1)God Created everything and he is there from the start.
2)Not all religion and science statement can co-exist together

Mad Part:

1) You can ask God when you die :twisted:
2) Go and invent time machine then go and explore the past :twisted:

Hmm I guess.. Earth became Earth because the thing we're living on had to be called something. Just like this "God" some people believe in, had ot be called something and its not "God" in all languages, when it should be - if it were the omnipotent and allknowing being that christians say it is.. ah well.. the evolution of languages is an interesting topic too...

Hmm I guess.. Earth became Earth because the thing we're living on had to be called something. Just like this "God" some people believe in, had ot be called something and its not "God" in all languages, when it should be - if it were the omnipotent and allknowing being that christians say it is.. ah well.. the evolution of languages is an interesting topic too...yeah..

*grunt grunt grunt*

languages... Hmm that sure sounds interesting...

I read a book and it said that human came from same place and then they move to create their own civilization...Later on, they created their own language, name, religion, and tradition. In the bible, in the story of the babylon tower (if i'm not wrong) the people angered God and then changed their languages that all of them get into fight. In the end they all moved to different places to live on and so on.

Hmm I guess.. Earth became Earth because the thing we're living on had to be called something. Just like this "God" some people believe in, had ot be called something and its not "God" in all languages, when it should be - if it were the omnipotent and allknowing being that christians say it is.. ah well.. the evolution of languages is an interesting topic too...

"Earth" became "Earth" because those are the squiggles and sounds that some people somewhere decided to associate with our planet. Likewise with the word "God." However, those squiggles and sounds are not what is important. What is important is the actual object or idea to which that word is attached. Sure, the English word used to refer to God may be different from the Greek word used to refer to God, however, a Christian bible written in English refers to the same god as a Christian bible written in Greek. What form the words or language take doesn't matter. The idea behind them is the same. The words are just an abstraction.

yeah but I do believe that words actually hold a very strong point in our lives. war and peace, love and hatred... they all could be represented by our words and words created languages. People from different places could not understand what each other means because their words of the same object are different. And one more thing, at first, Bible was not writen in english. The english edition which most people are using now had been edited a lot of time and MAYBE some of the important aspect has been lost. By the way i agree that words are only abtraction since i do believe that it doesnt matter whether the words are different or not as long as the goal are the same :D

I haven't read anything else but I'm gonna answer.


God was not created. God is a complete different modes of existence- humans are 3 dimensions, think God is thousands millions infinite amount of dimensions. Humans is like being in a black and white picture, God is colour. The question of creation doesn't arise, becuase it doesn't fit in with what God is.

I suppose the universe expanding is the same thing?

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040531.html

There's some food for thought.

Hmm human are black and white, God is colour then... How about angel and demon? Are thy grey in colour?

This is a topic that people kill themselves thinking about. If God created man, who created God? Of coarse, there's always the 'Big Bang Theory', in which, supposedly, billions of particles came together and exploded, miraculously creating universes and stars. Yet where did all those particles come from in the first place? And how did those particles magically make microscopic life forms? How did those make larger animals like fish? How did those evolve into land animals? ARGGHH!!!!!! So many questions!!! My head hurts!!!!! :tantrum:

[Note: This thread ponders the origins of the universe.]

Well although I believe there is a God (of some shape or form) I've always wondered where God came from?

:shock: <dizzy spell>

I agree with you, and here is an elegant solution to the dilema. God was the first Cause (capital C). The Universe is a series of cause & effect reactions constantly taking place. However, there must be a cause to have an effect. So, God was the first Cause, whether he instigated the Big Bang or Created the Earth, he was the first Cause and from there on out, we have the effects... :wink:

Noone created man, we evolved!

I fully agree with that statement. If there's a God why doesn't he come down to earth and make this an earthly paradise? People pray to God that's all well and good but when you pray to stop a war, does that work? When you pray to let the cancer go away from your body does that work? With praying, not. Show me one good example where praying was the answer to common diseases or misfortune.

But who created the universe? It's so easy to God is guy behind it but other theories at leat give things which you can research or at least discuss. Talking about God usually results in a 'he exists and that's it' kind of arguement. The universe isn't really created because it's an infinite loop. Energy can create things, but it can also destroy things. Phantom energy is the prime example of this. Phantom energy is the force which lets universe expand. That's proven by Edwin Hubble. Einstein redifined the laws of gravity because Newtons calculations weren't accurate enough.
To come back to the creation of the universe you must know how everything ends. The most plausible theories are the big crunch or the big rip. The big crunch is a strange theory where the expansion of the universe stops and starts to shrink with time running backwards. Time and the expansion of the universe are equal because when the universe was created time began too. The big rip is gravity going insane. The phantom force tugging at our universe can go insane and rip everything apart. Remember, energy never goes away; it's indestructible.

With that in mind imagine the universe has ended. Energy comes back together. But wait, I tought everything was gone including gravity? Gravity is a primeval force and cannot be destroyed as well. Same holds for electro-magnetism and nuclear force. Altough it's not been proven by modern science, many people believe energy is made of so called strings. A vibrating torus which radiates energy and is energy itself. And all things which have mass, have gravity. The energy comes back together and billions of years later or even more there will be a ball of energy which explodes at some point when it cannot sustain itself anymore. That's the creation of the universe. With the explosion so much energy is released that atoms spontaneously form. After chemical reactions the atoms have created new elemets and other atoms.

But what created the universe? Well, no one knows. But isn't it rather easy to say it was God?

force = mass * velocity squared divided by the radius

gahh... physics will never leave me :|

Uhh...sorry to be a smart aleck, force = mass * veloctiy only

Note: 1 Newton=1kg *1m/sec squared :D

Hmmm interesting and is such a thing i have pondered deeply and think i have formulated my oppinion.

Ithink that "god" (should he be real) isn't an entity. It is woven into the very fabric of space and time. It can be everywhere at once and sense whatever is going on in the universe. It can create life or it can take it. It made the stars and the heavens and also governs them. It made the orbits of the planets and it made gravity. It made all the laws of nature that we know today. It has always been here and it always will be. At least that is my oppinion.

No-one created God because he doesnt exist and didnt create man, a simple but true explanation :lol:

Oh an about prayers not being answered, if you don't bielieve you can ride a bike and you disbielieve and percieve it with absolute truth, you cannot ride a bike. If you disbielieve in something, how do you expect do do it? When i was young and bielieved in god i could pray for it to rain and it would happen. Thats because i bielieved in him with the absolute conviction that he was real. Then one day i prayed again (when i was older) to test to see if he was real. I did not bielieve my prayers would be heard becuase i didn't bielieve it possible, so it never happened.

I no longer bielieve in a god. The theory above is for people who do bielieve in god and maybe it is true. Here is another theory of which i hold more strongly.

What people think effects the very fabric of nature. Thought power drives almost all laws and religions in this world. In all reality people CAN effect reality with thier thoughts, the tibetan monks have shown us this with their amazing ability with telekinesis (yes it is real my firends) People who bielieve in god with absolute devotion, know him to be a truth. And since they know this to be truth, when they pray it happens. In all reality thier prayers have not been answered their minds simply affected reality because they bielieve so strongly. That explains my whole rain thing above. And thats another theory i have

I have a question.(but I'm catholic and I still believe in God) What if god did NOT create us, but instead created the beings (not aliens, in my book they're all the same thing) that created us. Maybe they just thought that it was normal to put their belief in a creator in OUR heads. I saw th idea once on tv but they thought that it wasn't possible because it could just go in a loop-

us->beings->beings->beings->God

God will ALWAYS be the first in the chain, but it could go on forever.....

I haven't read anything else but I'm gonna answer.


God was not created. God is a complete different modes of existence- humans are 3 dimensions, think God is thousands millions infinite amount of dimensions. Humans is like being in a black and white picture, God is colour. The question of creation doesn't arise, becuase it doesn't fit in with what God is.

In my thinking,God is an entity that exists in several dimensions,in a sense a multidimensional being or more,therefore,beyond human understanding.

Humans as sentient beings exist in 3-4 dimensions,given that space and time are one and the same,for as you move forward in distance,you also move forward in time,in a sense,all of us permanently being time travelers.Given the postulated existence of a soul,which is more than likely imho,we can posit that we exist in several dimensions,though not as many as a god-entity of any sort,which would therefore be beyond our understanding.

Do you think that an ant could comprehend a human beings existence?Similarly,do you think that we fully understand an ant's existence,what its thoughts and motications may be?Perhaps,an ant could look to us as large immobile parts of the lanscape that move very slowly from their point of view.

Maybe thats how it is with god(s) and beings existing in other planes or existing in dimensions.

[Note: This thread ponders the origins of the universe.]

Well although I believe there is a God (of some shape or form) I've always wondered where God came from?

:shock: <dizzy spell>

I agree with you, and here is an elegant solution to the dilema. God was the first Cause (capital C). The Universe is a series of cause & effect reactions constantly taking place. However, there must be a cause to have an effect. So, God was the first Cause, whether he instigated the Big Bang or Created the Earth, he was the first Cause and from there on out, we have the effects... :wink:

If time began at the Big Bang/moment of Creation, then there can be no "first cause". You can't have something that causes time to start, since a cause must precede an effect. If the effect is to start time, where do you fit the cause? So the Big Bang/Creation, if there was one, must have been the First Effect. Or, in other words, it merely happened: no cause, no reason. If time did not start, i.e. if it is eternal, then obviously there was no Creation. That removes the need for a Creator altogether and the question becomes moot.

Of course, this argument does not preclude handwaving metaphysics of the "God is of a higher order" variety -- although if you want to go down that route, I can equally postulate a meta-God of an even higher order, who created God. And why stop there? Let's have infinite serried ranks of meta-Gods, and meta-meta-Gods, and meta-meta-meta-Gods, all creating the ones below and being created by those above.

Or, a perhaps saner approach would be to have a God that is implicit within the universe, that is as much a part of a causeless Creation as everything else. So the answers would be:

a) there is no God;
b) there was no Creation;
c) a possibly infinite succession of meta-Gods;
or d) nobody -- He, and everything else, just happened.

Current scientific evidence and Ockham's Razor lead me to tend towards a), but really each option is just as good as the others.

Oh and i HAVE TO POST THIS, it will blow your mind

While the universe gets infinitly bigger it also gets infinitly smaller, you can keep zooming in untill the end of time (not like we could anways we can only zoom down to atoms =()

Oh and i HAVE TO POST THIS, it will blow your mind

While the universe gets infinitly bigger it also gets infinitly smaller, you can keep zooming in untill the end of time (not like we could anways we can only zoom down to atoms =()


I STILLL DON'T GET IT! :roll:

Perhaps the UNIVERSE is GOD,in a sense.

If you realise,humans are a collection of systems,a network of minor systems.Atoms make up molecules,molecules make up cells,cells make up the tissue and organs of the body,such as the heart,the brain.

As this network of systems synergises to result in a bigger system,we get the resulting sentient being,just as a computer consists of many systems.

Many systems are self-organising.Maybe the universe itself is sentient entity,and we the mitochondria in one of its many cells.and thus,we call the Universe God.

either way,this thread is pretty damn interesting.

Perhaps the UNIVERSE is GOD,in a sense.

If you realise,humans are a collection of systems,a network of minor systems.Atoms make up molecules,molecules make up cells,cells make up the tissue and organs of the body,such as the heart,the brain.

As this network of systems synergises to result in a bigger system,we get the resulting sentient being,just as a computer consists of many systems.

Many systems are self-organising.Maybe the universe itself is sentient entity,and we the mitochondria in one of its many cells.and thus,we call the Universe God.

either way,this thread is pretty damn interesting.

The universe must be God, and God must be the universe. If he was outside the universe, then there would be something bigger than God: God + the universe.

(I don't believe in God myself but nevertheless I think this is one of the arguments used...)

Humans only live in 3 dimensions. We cannot see hear or feel the fourth. There are 11 dimensions in fact.

my parents created god.
though i perfer to be called goddess, you get my drift though.

[Note: This thread ponders the origins of the universe.]

Well although I believe there is a God (of some shape or form) I've always wondered where God came from?

:shock: <dizzy spell>


This could have been answered so much earlier than this.

Nothing created God, if something did then 'God' would not be God. Therefore the original statement is a non-sequitur.

Thankyou,

TNE

Humans only live in 3 dimensions. We cannot see hear or feel the fourth. There are 11 dimensions in fact.
we live in four dimensions.
the fourth dimension is time... the only thing that makes it different than the three spatial dimensions is that we can't contol our movement through it. we're always moving forward at the same pace... unless we go in a space ship travelling near the speed of light...

This could have been answered so much earlier than this.

Nothing created God, if something did then 'God' would not be God. Therefore the original statement is a non-sequitur.

Thankyou,

TNE

That only works if you regard "God" as a singular Creator. Zeus was the child of Rhea and Cronos; Zeus then went on to create some of the other members of the Greek pantheon. All these various creatures are "gods" by one definition, and none of them were ultimate creators. According to Greek mythology (or at least one major strand of it), everything emerged from primal chaos.

It doesn't matter as long as groovilious babe magnets like me exist.

has anyone read the Scott Adams story "God's Debris" ? It the only plausible explanation for the existance of a omnipotent being ive heard. Also just to comtemplate omnipotence, a being that knows all would not find humans any more or less interesting than a single atom of space dust. I think people automatically anthromorphize when thinking about god, but there is no reason to believe that god's mind would be anything like ours, since it would lack beliefs, (because god knows all) desires, (God is all powerful) hopes, dreams, inquisitive spirit etc. What could possibly motivate a diety? Only one thing, the attempt to destroy itself, this is the only challenge that could hold the interest of a diety. So maybe God destoryed itself (the big bang) and the entire universe it made up of God's debris , whihc when it settles will reconstruct to form another being that contains all that is the universe, and thus another big bang.

Well, theres my rant for the morning, go to town...

Hmm human are black and white, God is colour then... How about angel and demon? Are thy grey in colour?


angle and demon are black and white seeing as God made them

I'll go with the dimension theory :)

if you aren't dealiing with linear time then its easy to say God always existed because then there is no before or after anything.

Within God ALL times exist simultaneously.

The logical fallacies, clichés and a priori arguments in here are giving me apoplexy. If you're going to debate theology, do yourself a favor and do it well.

Nothing created God, if something did then 'God' would not be God. Therefore the original statement is a non-sequitur.

If that's true, then something can exist without a cause or creator. Why, then, must the universe be ascribed to a creator? Occam's Razor asserts that one should keep the number of entities in a system to a minimum - keep it simple. If there is no need for a god, why make one?

Perhaps the UNIVERSE is GOD,in a sense.

This belief is called pantheism.

BoogieDown: As much as I love God's Debris, that doesn't address where God came from.

Aren't we living in all 11 dimensions? But what our mind can perceive is only 4 dimensions. Hence, God might be several dimensions. Hence, he can create universes. And he know the past present future. So he got to be at least more than 4, probably above that to alter dimensions.

Aren't we living in all 11 dimensions? But what our mind can perceive is only 4 dimensions. Hence, God might be several dimensions. Hence, he can create universes. And he know the past present future. So he got to be at least more than 4, probably above that to alter dimensions.

I dont know where you are getting this 11 dimesions thing (super-string theory?) but I can tell you right now that this is not the kind of question we can answer right now, Super sting thory is just one of many models in current theoretical physics and cannot even be tested, let alone proven, so I wouldn't get too attached to the number 11.

Can God create a stone he can't lift?

Either he can create the stone, or he cannot.

If he can, he's not omnipotent, because he can't lift it.

If he can't he's not omnipotent, because he can't.

Therefore God cannot be omnipotent.

Hey! Don't you steal Homer Simposon's ideas and pass them off as your own! That's plagamarism!

Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?

Can God create a stone he can't lift?

Either he can create the stone, or he cannot.

If he can, he's not omnipotent, because he can't lift it.

If he can't he's not omnipotent, because he can't.

Therefore God cannot be omnipotent.

Hey! Don't you steal Homer Simposon's ideas and pass them off as your own! That's plagamarism!

Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?


lol :D