NationStates Jolt Archive

Is a human being an either/or proposition? Or are there 1 or more "pre-being" stages (eg zygote, embryo, fetus) before the human organism can be called an actual "Being"?

There have been cases of human babies born alive but without brains. (No Dubya or Kerry jokes please.) Seriously - without a brain, but with a nervous system/heart/lungs etc which will operate with medical assistance. Should such a human organism - born without a brain and therefore unable to have a consciousness or a thought - be thought of as an actual Human Being?

Can a human organism have a "soul" in its earliest stages before it has developed a forebrain?

I consider myself Pro-Choice on the abortion issue, but I always wonder why the leaders of the Pro-Choice movement never talk publically about stages of fetal development and the biological/philosophical issues related to what makes a human organism a Human Being. I really think they should start talking about forebrains and consciousness and not solely about women's rights.

A baby is human from the moment the sperm join with the egg.

The DNA determines if you are a person or not, correct? Well, the moment the sperm joins with the egg, DNA is formed separate from the mother carrying it.

i believe life starts either when consciousness develops, or when the heartbeat starts.
as simple as that.

I believe at the moment of conception.

A baby is human from the moment the sperm join with the egg.

The DNA determines if you are a person or not, correct? Well, the moment the sperm joins with the egg, DNA is formed separate from the mother carrying it.

No argument that it's human because it can't be anything else - but is it a Being?

But some people aren't concious after birth but they are still a human being and deserve to live.

Life begins when the brain and heart have developed.

When ever it is alive to the parents

At the moment of conception, but who couldn't guess that I was going to say that?

After it leave the house and goes to college. 8)

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

if your question is when is a human being a 'being,' i would have to say when the child is aware of itself ansd its sentience. that moment is obviously different for every human, and also very difficult to pinpoint. but that is what i believe, because that is what separates us from animals: self-awareness.

if your question is when is a human being a 'being,' i would have to say when the child is aware of itself ansd its sentience. that moment is obviously different for every human, and also very difficult to pinpoint. but that is what i believe, because that is what separates us from animals: self-awareness.
If that's the case then what separates us from the other self-aware animals?

After the kids have all left for college.

I think it's when a child is born and has survived, but any parent who has lost a child in infancy or through miscarriage might tell you otherwise. I've never experienced this. I do know that they mourn as much as they would for a child who had lived for years.

I guess you could say that as soon as someone begins to care for it, it lives. Maybe that is the best way to put it, at least philosophically.

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?

the phrase "i think, therefore i am" comes into play. when a child has its first concious thought, then it is human.

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?
that the baby is not born yet

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?
that the baby is not born yet

you didnt answer the question what is diffrent in the babies humanity.

so 50% of conceived "babies" are naturally destroyed by passing through a woman without implanting themselves.

identical twins are only one person, so if you only kill one of them, then that's ok, because the other is the same person. (assuming personhood begins at conception)

a further 25% of embryos suffer improper division and genetic mutations and so abort themselves, often before a woman knows she was pregnant.

Conception is the moment of life. Think of it this way, what other point is as definate or set in stone? Consciousness? When does that occur? Heartbeat? Time varies. The only set moment is conception, and from that point, only semantics until birth.

And the "When the Parent's Decide..." option was disproven during the Roman Empire, when they got rid of Patris Potestas. (It's been years since Latin class, sorry.)

How come if a murderor kills a pregnant woman it counts as a double murder?

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?
that the baby is not born yet

you didnt answer the question what is diffrent in the babies humanity.
well let's see. Has the baby experiances sight, smell, and hearing yet? What about taste?

Has the baby quit living off it's...cord support....thingie...

Has the baby come out of the womb?

besides, 5 minutes is too late in the...pre-born development stage of it's "life." Try questioning the difference in humanity between 5 months before it's born and 5 months after.

How come if a murderor kills a pregnant woman it counts as a double murder?

doesn't it only count if the murderer knew the woman was pregnant and intended to destroy the fetus?
doesnt' she also have to be pretty far along?

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?
that the baby is not born yet

you didnt answer the question what is diffrent in the babies humanity.that's cause I didn't say anything about the baby's humanity
I just said that that's when it's "alive"

How come if a murderor kills a pregnant woman it counts as a double murder?

doesn't it only count if the murderer knew the woman was pregnant and intended to destroy the fetus?
doesnt' she also have to be pretty far along?

no it counts as a double murder.

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?
that the baby is not born yet

you didnt answer the question what is diffrent in the babies humanity.that's cause I didn't say anything about the baby's humanity
I just said that that's when it's "alive"

yah but i asked the question I said what is the diffrence in their humanit? cmon you can answer

well let's see. Has the baby experiances sight, smell, and hearing yet? What about taste?Without a tongue, it's not human? Are the deaf not human? The blind?

Has the baby quit living off it's...cord support....thingie...
If incapable of surviving without medical attention, it's not human?

Has the baby come out of the womb?
Once again, how is this different in the five minutes before or after? What is this point? What makes the great difference? Is it the head coming out? The entire baby? If we spin the baby around, smash the skull, and vacuum out the brains, is not infanticide? (Partial birth abortion, btw.)

How come if a murderor kills a pregnant woman it counts as a double murder?

doesn't it only count if the murderer knew the woman was pregnant and intended to destroy the fetus?
doesnt' she also have to be pretty far along?

no it counts as a double murder.

not necessarily.

What are the stats on partial birth abortion? How often does this happen to...say...just routine abortion of a first trimester fetus?

I said before, 5 minutes before a birth and a baby is virtually human already. Yes, it's bloody true.

But compare a friggin -5 minute old baby to a fetus! That's my point...

That depends if you're looking at it from the physical, intellectual, or spiritual angle. Physically it'd be at conception, intellectually between two months and five years of age, spiritually varies because of the many religions.

What are the stats on partial birth abortion? How often does this happen to...say...just routine abortion of a first trimester fetus?

90% of abortions are done in the first trimester.
9% in the second.
1% in the third.

the second and third trimester abortions are medically necessary ones.
partial birth abortions are also preforemed on women who are carrying a dead fetus inside them. rather than preform a c-section or let it rot, they take it out in a manner that demands less recovery time and less risk of infection.

What are the stats on partial birth abortion? How often does this happen to...say...just routine abortion of a first trimester fetus?
Unfortunately, according to the New England Journal of Medicine, due to political fighting and legal actions, there are no open and unbiased statistics on Partial Birth Abortion available.

the second and third trimester abortions are medically necessary ones.
partial birth abortions are also preforemed on women who are carrying a dead fetus inside them. rather than preform a c-section or let it rot, they take it out in a manner that demands less recovery time and less risk of infection. According to congressional testimony provided by abortion doctors, a full 80% of second and third term abortions are done by choice, usually in regards to a genetic defect such as Downs Syndrome.

And if it was already dead, why must the brains be sucked out with a hose?

Would continue the good fight, but must sleep.

I believe that a baby has a right to life after it develops it's nervous system...I guess to the level of having a forebrain...but maybe earlier...I'm still thinking about it
I believe that the baby is alive after being born...

which question am I answering?

What is the diffrence of the Humanity of the baby 5 minuites before he/she is born and 5 minuites after they were born?
that the baby is not born yet

you didnt answer the question what is diffrent in the babies humanity.that's cause I didn't say anything about the baby's humanity
I just said that that's when it's "alive"

yah but i asked the question I said what is the diffrence in their humanit? cmon you can answer
I never said there was a difference... So your question doesn't seem relevant...

I almost had a 3rd sister, but she was born stillborn.

Clearly, stated, US infant mortality rate climbed from 6.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in 2001 to 7.0 deaths per 1,000 in 2002.

Therefore conception does not guarantee a "live" birth.

Life begins with a smack on the bum!!

And if it was already dead, why must the brains be sucked out with a hose?

because you can't induce labour when it's dead, therefore you can't get a full dilation, therefore you must make it smaller so it can pass through the birth canal. the biggest part would be the head. aside from that, it's dead...

a fertilized egg, given the right curcumstances, will develop into a human being. do circumstances that limit a child's development take its humanity as well? not so much.

Is a human being an either/or proposition? Or are there 1 or more "pre-being" stages (eg zygote, embryo, fetus) before the human organism can be called an actual "Being"?

There have been cases of human babies born alive but without brains. (No Dubya or Kerry jokes please.) Seriously - without a brain, but with a nervous system/heart/lungs etc which will operate with medical assistance. Should such a human organism - born without a brain and therefore unable to have a consciousness or a thought - be thought of as an actual Human Being?

Can a human organism have a "soul" in its earliest stages before it has developed a forebrain?

I consider myself Pro-Choice on the abortion issue, but I always wonder why the leaders of the Pro-Choice movement never talk publically about stages of fetal development and the biological/philosophical issues related to what makes a human organism a Human Being. I really think they should start talking about forebrains and consciousness and not solely about women's rights.

Why are human babies any more different than a full grown dog? Or turtle? Or chicken?

Chicken eggs sometimes have blood in them.
Hamburger meat is tasty.
I'd eat my dead grandma if she tasted good.

This topic is boring.

"The devil made the black death."
"No, Johnny Christian, a virus called the bubonic plague did."
"Jesus makes lights."
"No, Johnny, the movement of electrons makes lights."
"My priest cures people."
" :P No Johnny, he molests them, and preys on their fears of death. Scientists cure people."
"I'm scared, I don't want to die."
"^&*& it, Johnny. Just take this damn Bible and leave me alone."

Well, let's see here.. when does HUMAN... LIFE begin?

Definition time...

:arrow: Human: Hu"man, n. An ORGANISM belonging to man or mankind; having the qualities or
attributes of a man; of or pertaining to man or to the race
of man; as, a human voice; human shape; human nature; human
sacrifices.

..Well, from that we can see that a Fetus.. however primitive.. is definitely belonging to that of the Human Race... It's a human organism, but what's an organism?

:arrow: Organism: n 1: a living thing that has the ability to act
or function INDEPENDENTLY syn: being
2: a system considered analogous in structure or function to a
living body; "the social organism"

..From that we can see that the human fetus.. not being independent of the mother, is not an organism.. it is, in fact, a Parasite.. here's the definition of parasite:

:arrow: Parasite: n An animal which lives during the whole or PARTof its
existence on or IN the body of some OTHER animal,
feeding upon its food, blood, or tissues, as lice,
tapeworms, etc.

..Yep, the human fetus is actually not an organism until it's moment of birth, from which point it can live independently. Before such point.. it is a human parasite... but is it alive?
Yes, it's true that parasite such as mosquitoes.. tapeworms, etc. are alive, but they were not concieved within the organism they are plundering... Perhaps the definition of Life would help sort this out?

:arrow: Life: n The state of being which begins with generation, BIRTH, or
germination, and ends with DEATH; also, the time during
which this state continues; that state of an animal or
plant in which all of its organs are capable of
performing all or any of their functions; -- used of all
animal and vegetable ORGANISMS.

Well, from this we gather that Life is the period between birth, and death. You may also note at the bottom that it is a trait only applicable to Organisms.. those independent of another organism and capable of living well on their own... How about that.
So, The human fetus is a parasite, but one which does not possess the quallities of life that others have.
Some may argue that the fetus is in a symbiotic relationship with said mother, yet the definition (i figure you all know what it is.. and have had enough definitions by now) ... The fetus is not exchanging any beneficial properties back to the mother.. it is not aiding it in any way. Also, organisms engaged in such relationships can live well enough on their own to begin with.. clearly, this is not the case.

Human Life begins at the point of birth.

I believe that conception is when a human being is born and alive.

I believe that conception is when a human being is born and alive.

and i believe it is when the first thought is made

and i believe it is when the first thought is made

And what age is that? How do you know that a thought is not made at conception? People can't even remember back to when they were 2, say.

and i believe it is when the first thought is made

And what age is that? How do you know that a thought is not made at conception? People can't even remember back to when they were 2, say.

people do not have the capacity for thought at conception

I object to the question. It makes no more sense than asking how many water molecules make a cloud. Life, like the cloud, is an abstraction, and abstractions always fall apart at the boundary. We look up at the sky and say 'that white thing up there is a cloud', but few people would say that about the cloud of steam coming from a kettle. Similarly, everyone hear will agree that we're all alive, but many people don't count life as beginning at the moment of conception. People try to draw lines (mainly because the law works only in black-and-white), but there is really just a continuum from 'definitely not alive' to 'definitely alive'.

people do not have the capacity for thought at conception

And how do you know this to be fact?

Come with me and we'll find out.
*Stupendiously disturbing tongue wiggiling thing* Kiss, kiss baby.

i believe life starts either when consciousness develops, or when the heartbeat starts.
as simple as that.

Your right, but "simple as that" is REALLY complicated the heart beat occurs long before anything resembling consciouness occurs... What are you saying?

Come with me and we'll find out.
*Stupendiously disturbing tongue wiggiling thing* Kiss, kiss baby.

Oh, good lord! :lol:

Life begins at your first birthday obviously, otherwise a kid wouldn't hear "you are now 10 years old" on his 10th birthday. He would hear 10 years and 9 months or something.

After it leave the house and goes to college. 8)

As a parent of two children, I salute you! :mrgreen:

Seriously.. not until there is some level of consciousnes development.

You can't call a few cells a human being.

*gasp* But those few cells have a SOUL put there by God Hisself!! :shock:


So that means those few cells have the exact same value as you or any other person - even MORE value because we know those few cells are totally pure! and innocent! and untainted by the evil stain of Secular Liberalism!

people do not have the capacity for thought at conception

And how do you know this to be fact?

their lack of a brain....... :?

A baby is human from the moment the sperm join with the egg.

The DNA determines if you are a person or not, correct? Well, the moment the sperm joins with the egg, DNA is formed separate from the mother carrying it.

If I cut off a persons finger and the cells that make up that finger die as it would, by your logic I have a killed A human. Anyway DNA never did anyone any favours. It is the source of all the worlds ills.

((bump))

people do not have the capacity for thought at conception

And how do you know this to be fact?

their lack of a brain....... :?
or any nervous system
or even a neural tube
heck, not even a neural groove!
in fact, at this point the "baby" is one cell, and it's not even a neuron!!

DP

Let it die.

Not till The Poll gets over 100 clicks. Don't care if anyone posts anymore, just need to get more Clicks.

Life begins whenever the fetus is no longer literally taking the energy from the woman carrying it.

Life begins whenever the fetus is no longer literally taking the energy from the woman carrying it.
So after breast-feeding ceases? You really are pro-choice! :shock:

It doesn't really matter, imo. A child is yours to do you wish with. I may think a lot of the things people do to them are weird (circumcision etc), but I can't force you not to.

Human life is over rated. We're just animals. Every one of us is taking part in a mass murder every day, myself included (except the hardcore vegans, I suppose). But I'm fine with that. I just don't feel any different when its a human.

I had a point.

((bump))

I think I agree with Groovedom here. Yes, you could probably put forward a persuasive case that a zygote is human, and is alive. But that does not necessarily grant it the so-called 'right' to life.

The premise you seem to be working on, Garaj, is that because something is a live human, it has a right to life.

This is most simply not true; live humans die all the time, often with legal/religious/moral sanction.

The real question is 'what conditions must be met for something to have the right to life?'

In my opinion, none. Rights, at least in the ethical sense, exist purely to make us feel comfortable about our own vulnerablities.

If I walk down the street and someone kills me, their action wasn't wrong; merely stupid. Because in the end, we're all happier helping eachother out.

The reality is that nobody can really say when a life does oe doesn't begin, as far as fetal developement. Both sides have "scientific" evidence that prove they are correct. My point is this, who has the right to choose for any other person what the value or quality of their life is? I would rather err on the side of each person choosing for themselves what the quality of their life will be and not make that decision for them based on my circumstances and desires. We don't know conclusively so we are taking rights away in the name of our "reproductive rights". The real problem is the situations in which people have babies and not what they do in that situation.

-The Free Land of Canastas

The premise you seem to be working on, Garaj, is that because something is a live human, it has a right to life.

I'm adamantly pro-choice, and believe that a forebrain & consciousness must be present before a human organism can be designated a human being with any rights.

Ok, here is my understanding of when life begins.

Medically speaking, a fetus of 22 weeks can conceivable be born and survive (although not without life-saving efforts and alot of prayer). Anytime before the 22 week mark, medical facilities will not make medical attempts to prolong a fetus's life outside the womb.

Therefore, it is my opinion as a leader that says life begins at that mark.

On a personal note, I once felt that life began at conception.
I was an avid pro-lifer, feeling that even if the mother did not want the child, then someone would.
Following my own experiences, knowing that my child would go for adoption, clinging to that pro-life stance, I fearlessly went through my first pregnancy feeling confident I was doing the right thing.
I sought out a reputable adoption agency.
I drove the 3 hours to meet them.
I filled out pages of questions.
I answered everything asked that I knew the answer to.
I gave the agency all the information I had on the father, his family, our medical history.

I was unfortunate enough to have a mental health history in my family.
So did the father.
The agency expressed that they did not think a placement could be found before my giving birth.
Resonable efforts to locate the father must be made.
Families would have to be weeded out based on whether they had an interest in taking a child who may or may not be special needs.
They did feel that they could place my unborn child, eventually, but that I would likely be taking her home with me following the birth.

I was terrified.
I had placed all my hopes into this system... certain that some couple would love my child from the beginning.
Now I understood how some women could be so terrified or overwhelmed to leave their children on doorsteps.
I grasped the concept of trash-can dumpings.

While I knew that such things were not a choice I could make, I also knew that I could not deny a woman the right to choose what is best for her.
Sure, women who use abortion as a form of birth control are bad.
But generally speaking, that is not the most common reason for an abortion.
Women who choose abortion do so at great emotional turmoil.
Many are forever haunted by the "what ifs" of the procedure.
Expected due dates become missed birthdays.
Following pregnancies lead to thoughts of the one that is not there.
Women are highly emotional creatures.
We were made that way so that we COULD be the supportive, caregivers of our young.

So I beg you.
Before you dismiss a woman because she made that hard choice, think of the emotional battle that she fought.
They dont do it without thought to their actions.
Their actions are secrets that their hearts carry for the rest of their life.

Live in their sorrow, and you too will understand why we can not deny a woman her choice.

It doesn't begin at all. That's why it's called a life cycle.

It doesn't begin at all. That's why it's called a life cycle.

Reincarnation - haven't we heard it all before? :)

A baby is human from the moment the sperm join with the egg.

The DNA determines if you are a person or not, correct? Well, the moment the sperm joins with the egg, DNA is formed separate from the mother carrying it.

ah, so since personhood is determined by DNA then that means identical twins are one person. after all, at conception (and for some time after) they are a single egg and a single sperm, with a single set of DNA. therefore they must be only one person who just happens to have two bodies and two minds.

All embryonic development is a long process. It doesn’t just suddenly become human. But people like to have set and determinable boundaries. So they decide to put things into stages. Here it’s just a single cell. Here it’s just a cluster of cells. Well now they’re starting to become specialized. Now it’s starting to take shape. Now it’s parts are functional. Now it’s just getting bigger. Now it’s ready to come out. Now it’s out. Now it’s in a crib. Now its got it’s own bed. Now we can give it chores. Now it knows how to talk back. Now it can get a job. Now it can go to college. Now it can move out. Not until the child can do chores does it become human. Nor should it be considered human until it can do chores. Until then it’s just a parasite. Even though it can do chores it’s still a parasite until it finally moves out, but at least now it can be put to practical uses.[/sarcasm]

Seriously now what is the obsession with having a pre determined stage of development? Yes it easier, but the headache is monstrous.

“I say it should be here.”
“No, I say it should be here.”
“Rabble rabble rabble rabble.”

Instead of worrying about which stage a fetus becomes “human,” why don’t people worry more about whether or not they would ever get an abortion. If not than STFU. Instead of worrying about some strangers internal family affair, why don’t you go about your own business?

A baby is human from the moment the sperm join with the egg.

The DNA determines if you are a person or not, correct? Well, the moment the sperm joins with the egg, DNA is formed separate from the mother carrying it.

ah, so since personhood is determined by DNA then that means identical twins are one person. after all, at conception (and for some time after) they are a single egg and a single sperm, with a single set of DNA. therefore they must be only one person who just happens to have two bodies and two minds.
Biology is a very hard field of study. It involves a plethora of variables. Give the guy a break will ya?