NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a carry-over from another thread. Should Christians do drugs?

The main guideline is, "Would this honour the Temple of the Holy Spirit?"

I personally believe that alcohol is okay, after all, Jesus did turn the water into wine. What is not okay is getting drunk.

Illegal drugs are definitely out. The Bible says to submit to authority, and the authority has ruled that those drugs are illegal.

Cigarettes--I don't think they're a sin, but they shouldn't be used. They fall into the category of "everything is permissible, but not everything is profitable."

what about pot in amsterdam? marijuana is actually less harmful for you than alcohol, and if you go somewhere where it's legal, then it should be fair game, correct?

i'm not christian though... meh

I'm not a Christian, but I went to a Fundamental Baptist school for 9 years.
I know one of the arguments they would use is because God made you in His image, to praise him consciously. Drugs would interfere.
Same with alchohol, but it seems like, according to the Bible, the rules are a bit more lax. After all, wine is a part of holy communion, Jesus turned water to wine, and even Noah, God's chosen one as holy out of the sinners, gets drunk while naked and passes out.

These aren't my reasons for not drugging... mine go down past religion. Mine simply are that I want to be reliable, I want to mean everything I say and do. I don't want substances of any kind interfering with my ability to make choices, act, speak. If I'm going to say or do something, I want it to be my conscious choice.

That's all

Drugs are a Biblical grey area. Just for the sake of argument, I looked up some verses that can be easily interpreted to condone marijuana.
" Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." (Gen 9:3)
" In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." Rev. 22:2
He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; (Psalm 104:14)
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." (Genesis 1:29)
". . . thou shalt eat the herb of the field " (Genesis 3:18)
". . . eat every herb of the land" (Exodus 10:12)
"Better is a dinner of herb where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith" (Proverbs 15:17)
Then there's also the legend that marijuana grew on top of King Solomon's grave, but that's a bit too questionable...

what about pot in amsterdam? marijuana is actually less harmful for you than alcohol, and if you go somewhere where it's legal, then it should be fair game, correct?

i'm not christian though... meh

I'd put it under the category of the cigarettes.

It's also less addictive than caffeine.

Illegal drugs are definitely out. The Bible says to submit to authority, and the authority has ruled that those drugs are illegal.


But then the Bible also says:

"Don't quench the Spirit, don't despise inspired messages. But do test everything -- hold onto what is good, but keep away from every form of evil."
- 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, Complete Jewish Bible, English version by David H. Stern

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil."
- 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, The Teen Study Bible, NIV, Zondervan

The Bible does call for submission to authority, but only if that authority is "good" and not "evil." If that authority is evil, then we are to "keep away from" and "avoid" it. The greater lesson is wonderfully subversive, in that one should always think and consider the source before blindly following. In fact, some would consider anti-drug policy that harms innocent people, like missionaries in South America ( http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/22/peru.plane.03/ , http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/peru_americanplane_010421.html ), very evil indeed.

Illegal drugs are definitely out. The Bible says to submit to authority, and the authority has ruled that those drugs are illegal.

Because Jesus submitted to authority right?

Illegal drugs are definitely out. The Bible says to submit to authority, and the authority has ruled that those drugs are illegal.

Because Jesus submitted to authority right?

yeah, i'm sure everyone loved when he was toppling those tables in the temple..

We are to submit to the authority God has placed over us. That is a command in the Bible. Now, God has ordained that we should be born at a particular time under a particular government. We are to submit to that government. I was born under the Canadian government, therefore, according to the Bible, I am to submit to Canadian laws where they are not in conflict with the Bible.

:oops:

We are to submit to the authority God has placed over us. That is a command in the Bible.

Where? This seems to contrdict Lev 25:10 "Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof" and Lev 25:17.

Now, God has ordained that we should be born at a particular time under a particular government. We are to submit to that government.

So God ordained that Moses should be born in Egypt and submit to the Egyptian government. That Jesus should submit to the Roman and Jewish government. That Mary and Joseph should submit to Herod's government? You do realise that there are loads of examples in the Bible of men who have not submitted to authority?

I was born under the Canadian government, therefore, according to the Bible, I am to submit to Canadian laws where they are not in conflict with the Bible.

But why would God make a Christian live in a country where biblical laws are flouted? Come to think about it, why would God allow none-Christian and secular governments to exist?

what about pot in amsterdam? marijuana is actually less harmful for you than alcohol, and if you go somewhere where it's legal, then it should be fair game, correct?

i'm not christian though... mehSince the argument is against illegal drugs, and is based upon submission to authority then there is no obligation to abstain from pot in Amsterdam. Likewise, if snorting WD-40 is legal where they live then Christians have no religous obligation to abstain from it under this line of argument, despite the stupidity of the idea.

The Bible does call for submission to authority, but only if that authority is "good" and not "evil." If that authority is evil, then we are to "keep away from" and "avoid" it. The greater lesson is wonderfully subversive, in that one should always think and consider the source before blindly following. In fact, some would consider anti-drug policy that harms innocent people, like missionaries in South America . . . very evil indeed. The caution here is to distingush between the evil of the authority and potentially evil acts by good authority. Your distinction does not exist in the bible however for this purpose, the injunctions requiring submission to civil authority do not make a distinction between good and evil civil authority, consider I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake."

We are to submit to the authority God has placed over us. That is a command in the Bible.

Where? This seems to contrdict Lev 25:10 "Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof" and Lev 25:17.

Now, God has ordained that we should be born at a particular time under a particular government. We are to submit to that government.

So God ordained that Moses should be born in Egypt and submit to the Egyptian government. That Jesus should submit to the Roman and Jewish government. That Mary and Joseph should submit to Herod's government? You do realise that there are loads of examples in the Bible of men who have not submitted to authority?

I was born under the Canadian government, therefore, according to the Bible, I am to submit to Canadian laws where they are not in conflict with the Bible.

But why would God make a Christian live in a country where biblical laws are flouted? Come to think about it, why would God allow none-Christian and secular governments to exist?

Well, liberty is not the same as having no laws. Liberty is where you have enough laws to be able to function freely. No laws is anarchy, where the lack of laws keeps you from functioning.

Well, when God and the government conflict, we are to obey God, rather than the government. If the government suddenly passed a law making the Bible illegal, I would still be bound to read it.

Why would God make a Christian live in a country where Biblical laws are flouted? Light. Have you ever walked into a bedroom flooded with sunlight, and then turned on the lights? You barely see the light. But when it is dark outside, the light is better seen.

Drugs. Not mentioned in the bible. Actually lots of things are not mentioned in the bible.

So if you wanna do drugs and mess up your life. Go Ahead.

No point telling us that thats not true. Because then you've already made up your mind about it. :?

Leviticus 25:10 and 25:17 refer to the particular rules for the governeing of the Israel and specifically the rules for the Jubilee (for 25:10), they are not instructions for Christians to follow every day (like not killing people).


Now since the obligation to submit to civil authority is based upon Love of G*d it is certainly permissible for G*d to "authorize" Moses and Jesus to fail to submit to civil authority.

Well, liberty is not the same as having no laws. Liberty is where you have enough laws to be able to function freely. No laws is anarchy, where the lack of laws keeps you from functioning.

I never said it was. But you cannot have liberty and submit to authority. And I am still waiting for the Bible quotation that says we must submit to authority.

Well, when God and the government conflict, we are to obey God, rather than the government. If the government suddenly passed a law making the Bible illegal, I would still be bound to read it.

But why? Is there a line in the Bible saying that? Otherwise it seems that you are ignoring biblical laws if they don't suit you.

Why would God make a Christian live in a country where Biblical laws are flouted? Light. Have you ever walked into a bedroom flooded with sunlight, and then turned on the lights? You barely see the light. But when it is dark outside, the light is better seen.

This seems non sequiter. ie a fob off answer.

I favor I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake." There are several others too, but this covers most of the points needed.

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I favor I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake." There are several others too.

every ordinance? So if a law was passed banning the Bible you would have to comply, or is there a get out clause?

...therefore, according to the Bible, I am to submit to Canadian laws where they are not in conflict with the Bible.

"But Yeshua called them and said, "You know that among the Goyim, those who are supposed to rule them become tyrants, and their superiors become dictators. Among you, it must not be like that. On the contrary, whoever among you wants to be a leader must become your servant, and whoever want to be first must be your slave! For the Son of Man did not some to be served, but to serve -- and to give his life as a ransom for many."
- Mattityahu (Matthew) 20:25-28, Complete Jewish Bible, English version by David H. Stern

"Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -- just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
- Matthew 20:25-28, The Teen Study Bible, NIV, Zondervan

Perhaps Jesus is suggesting in the passage above that leaders/government/law should submit to you, as much as (and maybe more than) you submit to them.

I favor I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake." There are several others too.

...is there a get out clause?

I already gave it above in my first post to this thread.

I never said it was. But you cannot have liberty and submit to authority. And I am still waiting for the Bible quotation that says we must submit to authority.
Jesus said, "Give to Cesar what is Cesar's, and give to God what is God's." Besides, that liberty quote was actually about the Jubilee.


But why? Is there a line in the Bible saying that? Otherwise it seems that you are ignoring biblical laws if they don't suit you.
Well, there is no line like that specifically in the Bible. But there are the references to obedience, and to disobedience. The best example is Daniel in the lion's den. He prayed to God even when he knew he would die.

This seems non sequiter. ie a fob off answer.
Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Christians are called to be light. We are supposed to shine God's Word. A flashlight shines clearer in a dark room than in a light room, correct? Well, the room is like the country you are in, the overhead light is like God's Word, and the flashlight is like the Christians. Flashlights are more useful in a dark room than in a light one, correct? And Christians can spread the gospel better in a dark world than a light world.

Christians have been doing drugs forever.
People will debate if you should be allowed to do drugs in the name of god.
But You are allowed to do anything in this life as long for it is a pleasure.
The only way that this will have harmful effects is if you drink to just get drunk.
The same thing goes for smoking pot. But you don't crash into someone while your smoking. You do this after you drunk a dozen kamakuzi's though.
Most of the time we should and shouldn't follow the bible.

I favor I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake." There are several others too.

every ordinance? So if a law was passed banning the Bible you would have to comply, or is there a get out clause?the fuller quote from Peter is "IPeter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 1Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 1Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 1Peter 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 1Peter 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 1Peter 2:18 Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1Peter 2:19 For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully." One can see that reference is specifically made to submitting to an evil master ("Froward" in my KJV)

As for an escape clause, well actually there isn't a specific one. The closest is the old "Render unto Caesar" argument.

...therefore, according to the Bible, I am to submit to Canadian laws where they are not in conflict with the Bible.

"But Yeshua called them and said, "You know that among the Goyim, those who are supposed to rule them become tyrants, and their superiors become dictators. Among you, it must not be like that. On the contrary, whoever among you wants to be a leader must become your servant, and whoever want to be first must be your slave! For the Son of Man did not some to be served, but to serve -- and to give his life as a ransom for many."
- Mattityahu (Matthew) 20:25-28, Complete Jewish Bible, English version by David H. Stern

"Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -- just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
- Matthew 20:25-28, The Teen Study Bible, NIV, Zondervan

Perhaps Jesus is suggesting in the passage above that leaders/government/law should submit to you, as much as (and maybe more than) you submit to them.Perhaps, but the usual and traditional interpertation is that he is refering to the establishment of his (His?) church and this has no bearing on civil authority.

I favor I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake." There are several others too, but this covers most of the points needed.

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is concious of God. But how is it to your credit if you recieve a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 'He commited no sin, and no deciet was found in his mouth.' When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats."
- 1 Peter 2:13-23, The Teen Study Bible, NIV, Zondervan

The Bible does not command us to obey man's authority because that authority is just or right or should be obeyed at all (in case anyone is arguing otherwise), The Bible commands us to obey man's authority as a means of protest and even subversion. Note what the passage says about slaves.

The passage acknowledges "unjust suffering" on the part of slaves, but encourages them to accept that suffering. Not because that suffering is right or just. Not because they must accept that suffering as they must accept the authority of man. But because their suffering serves as a means of protest. When they accept the suffering, they are essentially rebelling against the authority of man (EDIT: , and only acknowledging the authority of God), telling man to stick it in his ear. By accepting the suffering they are showing man that his beatings and abuse have no effect. In this way, the slave owner loses his power and loses his authority (EDIT: while God gains power and authority.) Jesus achieved the same when he gave no protest to his arrest, trial, and execution. When Jesus gave no protest, he was in fact rejecting the authority of man, because he knew that his temporary submission fit into a greater plan that would ultimately see to the destruction of human authority. When he allowed them to kill him he was effectively saying that their actions were of no consequence (EDIT: and God's will would still be carried out). His submission was not submission. It was subversion and rejection.

Ergo, rejecting illegal drug use because the Bible says to submit to the law of men is flawed. The aim of (EDIT: submitting to the authority of man) is not to regulate one's behavior, but to eventually conquer and overthrow the (EDIT: often extremely flawed) law of men. (EDIT: the Bible is the authority which tells us what is and is not permitted, so the opinion of man is of little consequence.)

...therefore, according to the Bible, I am to submit to Canadian laws where they are not in conflict with the Bible.

"But Yeshua called them and said, "You know that among the Goyim, those who are supposed to rule them become tyrants, and their superiors become dictators. Among you, it must not be like that. On the contrary, whoever among you wants to be a leader must become your servant, and whoever want to be first must be your slave! For the Son of Man did not some to be served, but to serve -- and to give his life as a ransom for many."
- Mattityahu (Matthew) 20:25-28, Complete Jewish Bible, English version by David H. Stern

"Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -- just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
- Matthew 20:25-28, The Teen Study Bible, NIV, Zondervan

Perhaps Jesus is suggesting in the passage above that leaders/government/law should submit to you, as much as (and maybe more than) you submit to them.Perhaps, but the usual and traditional interpertation is that he is refering to the establishment of his (His?) church and this has no bearing on civil authority.

Reading Matthew 20:20-28, it is clear that what he says above is in response to a mother asking that He give special consideration to her two sons. When Jesus' other followers hear about this they become angry with the two. The point Jesus was making was that squabbles over power and authority are wrong, and those who seek power and authority should instead become like slaves. It would seem to me that by using the civil authority of man as an example of what not to do, he was rejecting that authority, and intended to replace it with something better, by teaching people how to behave towards one another.

Illegal drugs are definitely out. The Bible says to submit to authority, and the authority has ruled that those drugs are illegal.

It might say that, but if it does, there is a huge contradiction here. Ephesians 6:12, NIV.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

hmm