NationStates Jolt Archive

so the bible says that god is love, correct?
in that case if god=love then love=god, or at least god would be pleased with love, correct?
so when tom and harry love each other, then god is there as well, as god is love.

how then can the love between tom and harry = sinful?
according to the bible, god is perfect and does not sin. so if god=love and love=sin then god=sin, but god!=sin, then what's the deal?
thus i conclude that love!=sin.

another thought: if god=love, then wouldn't god's counterpart, the biblical satan=hate?
so then when those people who claim to be doing god's work beat gay people to death out of hate, or restricting their freedoms for the same reason, then wouldn't they be doing satan's work?

also, the statement they claim: love the sinner, hate the sin. the sin in this instance is love. if god=love, then they're saying that they'll love the sinner and hate god, correct?

therefore, i conclude that the bible says that it's ok for gay people to be gay and the evangelists know nothing.

not that the bible should be taken as a consideration when considering laws or anything, but the most vocal opponents of homosexuals are those who have taken what they want from the book they claim to follow and left the rest for dead.

i pondered this as my dad sits discussing the bible with jehovah's witnesses and will claim that homosexuals are disgusting. what do you think?

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

No more, please god, no more.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

leviticus also says that eating shellfish and pork is an abomination.
it also says that wearing cloth of mixed fibre is an abomination.
it also says that you can keep foreign slaves.
it also says that a man should be stoned to death for growing two different crops in the same field.

what's your point?

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

leviticus also says that eating shellfish and pork is an abomination.
it also says that wearing cloth of mixed fibre is an abomination.
it also says that you can keep foreign slaves.
it also says that a man should be stoned to death for growing two different crops in the same field.

what's your point?

Those were Kosher laws. Abolished when Christ died for us and gave us the new covenant.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

leviticus also says that eating shellfish and pork is an abomination.
it also says that wearing cloth of mixed fibre is an abomination.
it also says that you can keep foreign slaves.
it also says that a man should be stoned to death for growing two different crops in the same field.

what's your point?

Those were Kosher laws. Abolished when Christ died for us and gave us the new covenant.

so if all the laws of leviticus were abolished, then gays are ok. excellent. i'm glad that you agree with me.

If Tom and Harry love eachother, then so be it!
God and/or the bible has no right to call them sinners.

ah, but my point is that according to the bible and the christian god, they're not sinners.
the only ones calling them sinners are the fundmenalists and evangelists and catholics and the like. (well, their leaders at least)

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

You're not suppose to eat Lobster either, what's your point?

ah, but my point is that according to the bible and the christian god, they're not sinners.
the only ones calling them sinners are the fundmenalists and evangelists and catholics and the like. (well, their leaders at least)

Muslim fundamentalists do the same thing, i tend to ignore them just as i ignore Christian fundamentalists.

It is at times like this that i'm happy i live in Belgium(not meant as an offence to your country, but we are the most openminded and progressive in stuff like this) .

Let us look at this from a non-theological point of view. Homosexuals are, without a doubt, a minority. They are viewed by many as a smudge on our history. The majority looks down on upon the homosexuals. Let us look down on them as well

JRH
Most Honorable and Revered Dictator of the Oppressed People of Bheaker Ro

It is at times like this that i'm happy i live in Belgium(not meant as an offence to your country, but we are the most openminded and progressive in stuff like this) .

what offense? i live in canada. i hear more bigots online than i do off.
assuming the conservatives don't get elected in the next election, our country will legalize same sex marriage in the near future. it's already legal in my province.

Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals; we're supposed to hate homosexuality.

God is love, but God is not romantic love. In the Greek, there are several forms of the word love. Homosexual love is eros love, or romantic love. God is agape love, or self-sacrificing love.

It is at times like this that i'm happy i live in Belgium(not meant as an offence to your country, but we are the most openminded and progressive in stuff like this) .

what offense? i live in canada. i hear more bigots online than i do off.
assuming the conservatives don't get elected in the next election, our country will legalize same sex marriage in the near future. it's already legal in my province.

Excellent, it was already legalized in Belgium a whole while ago.

I didnt know you live in Canada, but you know there still many countries where homosexuals cant marry.

given im an athiest but

seems to me that as a christian that the words of jesus should be most important

jesus never said hate the sin but love the sinner

he said whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto ME

he said whoever is without sin should cast the first stone

he said the greatest of these is love

he said love thy neighbor as thyself

he said to look to the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in the other guys eye

there should be no conflict between a sexual preference and believing in jesus.

Well, what about the Samaritan woman at the well? She wasn't lesbian, but if she lived today, she would have been condemned by the Church. What did Jesus say to her? "Go and sin no more." She was forgiven, but commanded not to sin. Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin.

IF tom and harry love each other, tom and harry should be stoned to death, that simple.

That was in the Old Testament. Under the New Covenant, if homosexuals repent and become Christians, they're saved.

*sigh*

This is why I'm not a mainstream Christian... too much ambiguity in the doctrine.

God says that a man and a woman should live in eternity. God stills loves homosexuality if they believe that what they're doing is wrong. Also, if they ask for forgiveness and accept christ into their heart. It's still a sin but they won't go to hell for it.

. . . God stills loves homosexuality if they believe that what they're doing is wrong. . .

If it's wrong, then how does God love it? Unless you mean that God loves homosexuals.

but how is it that romantic love between two people is wrong?
as pointed out earlier, jesus also said to love each other, he didn't specify which kind of love, just that love is what people should do to each other. how is it that this one kind of love is condemned?

not to mention that if jesus abolished the laws of leviticus, then the law against homosexuality should have gone the way of the kosher and circumcision issues.

From the Christian point of view, both Ashmoria and Temme are right - Christians should NOT in any way treat homosexuals any different to other people, because in God's eyes, every sin is equal, and nobody is sinless except Jesus.
Paul is agaist homosexuality in the new testament, so it is not just a jewish law. But Biblical themes surrounding homosexuality are mostly concerning it's negative points, such as rape. It also only comments on the acts and their consequences, not the feelings themselves. You must take into account that the Bible is also againt sexual acts before marriage.
The Bible also says "A man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh." - Only God can make two people one, and a man can only marry his wife (= woman) - any other marraige is not a true marraige in God's eyes because they haven't become 'one flesh'.
So, gay people have sexual relations outside of marriage, which is a sin. The feelings they have towards each other are real feelings and not sinful, but doing anything about them is a sin. According to the Bible.
Any Christian who says otherwise is speaking form his own opinion, not God's. And God loves everyone, whatever their sexual preferences!

paul also said that everyone should be celibate like him. not just gay people, everyone.
his comments about homosexuality were actually in regards to the greek custom of having whores at temples. men and women would be there for sex... it was ritualistic sex that paul was opposed to, he said nothing of loving between two people in love.

it's also not a prefernce, so you know.

I should note though:

BIBLE DICTIONARY
LAW OF MOSES
The name assigned to the whole collection of written laws given through Moses to the house of Israel, as a replacement of the higher law that they had failed to obey. The law of Moses consisted of many ceremonies, rituals,and symbols, to remind the people frequently of their duties and responsibilities. It included a law of carnal commandments and performances, added to the basic laws of the gospel. Faith, repentance, baptism in water, and remission of sins were part of the law, as were also the Ten Commandments. Although inferior to the fulness of the gospel, there were many provisions in the law of Moses of high ethical and moral value that were equal to the divine laws of any dispensation. The law of carnal commandments and much of the ceremonial law was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The law functioned under the Aaronic Priesthood and was a preparatory gospel to bring its adherents to Christ. See JST Ex. 34: 1-2; Rom. 3: 20; Gal. 3: 19, 24; Eph. 2: 14-16; Heb. 7: 11, 18-19; Heb. 9: 7-14; 2 Ne. 25: 24-30; Mosiah 12: 27 to 13: 32; 3 Ne. 9: 17; 3 Ne. 15: 1-8; D&C 84: 23-27.

One of the major questions the early Church in Palestine had to decide was about the obligation of Christians to the ceremonial law of Moses. The matter was partially solved by the conference held in Jerusalem, as recorded in Acts 15 and Gal. 2. The Jewish Christians in particular had difficulty giving up the ritual of the law of Moses.

The law as given through Moses was a good law, although adapted to a lower spiritual capacity than is required for obedience to the gospel in its fulness. However, the Jewish leaders had added many unauthorized provisions, ceremonies, and prohibitions to the original law, until it became extremely burdensome. These innovations were known as the “traditions of the elders.” By N.T. times among the Jews the law had become so altered it had lost much of its spiritual meaning almost to the point that the law was worshipped more than the Lord. It is this form of the law that is so harshly spoken against by Jesus and by Paul (see Matt. 15: 1-9; Mark 7: 1-13; Gal. 2: 16-21).


SEXUAL IMMORALITY
Willful participation in adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, incest, or any other unholy, unnatural, or impure sexual activity.

Let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, Gen. 19: 30-36. Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father’s concubine, Gen. 35: 22 (Gen. 49: 4; 1 Chr. 5: 1). Homosexuality and other sex perversions are an abomination, Lev. 18: 22-23. If a man forces a woman to lie with him, only the man is guilty of sin, Deut. 22: 25-27. Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart, Matt. 5: 28 (3 Ne. 12: 28). Fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection are idolatry, Col. 3: 5. In the last days men shall be without natural affection, 2 Tim. 3: 1-3.

I think people take on far too much when they claim to be able to speak for what God thinks and feels. If we look at it objectively, the only thing that can be said is that the old testament is nothing but a collection of social views by a group of people in the middle east, several thousand years ago. Show me the proof that they had some kind of direct link to God's thoughts that we do not have now?

One of the previous posters said that what appears in Leviticus is about the Kosha laws, and that they do not apply to Christians now - it also mentions slave keeping in Leviticus - keeping slaves is nothing to do with Kosha at all. Does that mean it is ok for Christians to keep slaves?

I think far too many people use this kind of thing as an excuse to hate other people, personally. At the end of the day, what you believe in is your own personal affair. It is not a question of whether you like homosexuality or not. You could hate it, really, as long as you keep your views to yourself, and respect other people's right to differ with you. The issue is whether you have the right to prevent private individuals from leading a happy life, the way they want to live it, by interfering and legislating against it. I think the answer to that, in any civilised society, where freedom of the individual is protected, is no.

I think people take on far too much when they claim to be able to speak for what God thinks and feels. If we look at it objectively, the only thing that can be said is that the old testament is nothing but a collection of social views by a group of people in the middle east, several thousand years ago. Show me the proof that they had some kind of direct link to God's thoughts that we do not have now?

One of the previous posters said that what appears in Leviticus is about the Kosha laws, and that they do not apply to Christians now - it also mentions slave keeping in Leviticus - keeping slaves is nothing to do with Kosha at all. Does that mean it is ok for Christians to keep slaves?

I think far too many people use this kind of thing as an excuse to hate other people, personally. At the end of the day, what you believe in is your own personal affair. It is not a question of whether you like homosexuality or not. You could hate it, really, as long as you keep your views to yourself, and respect other people's right to differ with you. The issue is whether you have the right to prevent private individuals from leading a happy life, the way they want to live it, by interfering and legislating against it. I think the answer to that, in any civilised society, where freedom of the individual is protected, is no.Umm... yeah.. you kinda have to believe Moses was a prophet if you're a christian...

do the words of jesus mean nothing to you raysian? dont they count more than anything in the old testament or the epistles?

Well, the part of Leviticus where God condemns homosexuality is the same part where God condemns incest.

do the words of jesus mean nothing to you raysian? dont they count more than anything in the old testament or the epistles?lol here we go again with the "I believe in him, but in nothing he says" discussion *roll*

Face it, the Old Testament is just as important and just as real as the new testament... barring, of course, any translational errors.

"so, this god that will send to burn in a bottomless pit of fire forever and ever . . . but he loves you."
- Geroge Carlin


Had to throw that in, but other than that, I think homosexuality is fine. The christians, muslims, and jews all use a book/books written by a bunch of people that is supposed to be divinly inspired to say that homosexuality is bad. How bout this - I have a book written by a bunch of people that says homosexuality is fine, and its divinly inspired. What would the response be?

Well, the part of Leviticus where God condemns homosexuality is the same part where God condemns incest.The principles of Righteousness are still there, but the punishments are no longer necessary (because of Christ's one-big-attonement) and the ceremonial and koscher laws.

Well, the part of Leviticus where God condemns homosexuality is the same part where God condemns incest.

well, they both involve sex, do they not? it makes sense to group them all together if they involve the same subject. all the food stuff is together, is it not?

do the words of jesus mean nothing to you raysian? dont they count more than anything in the old testament or the epistles?lol here we go again with the "I believe in him, but in nothing he says" discussion *roll*

Face it, the Old Testament is just as important and just as real as the new testament... barring, of course, any translational errors.

hmmm i honestly thought that for a christian jesus would be the most important thing.
go figure

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

leviticus also says that eating shellfish and pork is an abomination.
it also says that wearing cloth of mixed fibre is an abomination.
it also says that you can keep foreign slaves.
it also says that a man should be stoned to death for growing two different crops in the same field.

what's your point?

Those were Kosher laws. Abolished when Christ died for us and gave us the new covenant.

The only Kosher law here is eating shellfish. if you use an argument you better know what it's talking about. Does this mean that you can pick and choose what laws you follow? Women should only wear dresses? Women should be subservant to men for punishment because of the apple thing?

by the way could someone please explain how the old testament says "god is one" a million times but when the new testament comes it says "god is three"? makes no sense to us jews!

well, they both involve sex, do they not? it makes sense to group them all together if they involve the same subject. all the food stuff is together, is it not?

Yes, exactly. They all involve sex. If one sexual law is still valid, it makes sense that they all should be valid.

"so, this god that will send to burn in a bottomless pit of fire forever and ever . . . but he loves you."
- Geroge Carlin
Show me where it says anything about eternal hellfire... anywhere.

Had to throw that in, but other than that, I think homosexuality is fine. The christians, muslims, and jews all use a book/books written by a bunch of people that is supposed to be divinly inspired to say that homosexuality is bad. How bout this - I have a book written by a bunch of people that says homosexuality is fine, and its divinly inspired. What would the response be?how about this... homosexuality doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't help you to be more Christlike, it won't help you maintain your worthiness and purity (duh), and it won't get you married, and it won't produce children.... what good does it do besides unnatural companionship?

do the words of jesus mean nothing to you raysian? dont they count more than anything in the old testament or the epistles?lol here we go again with the "I believe in him, but in nothing he says" discussion *roll*

Face it, the Old Testament is just as important and just as real as the new testament... barring, of course, any translational errors.

hmmm i honestly thought that for a christian jesus would be the most important thing.
go figure

not when he says something you don't like!

do the words of jesus mean nothing to you raysian? dont they count more than anything in the old testament or the epistles?lol here we go again with the "I believe in him, but in nothing he says" discussion *roll*

Face it, the Old Testament is just as important and just as real as the new testament... barring, of course, any translational errors.

hmmm i honestly thought that for a christian jesus would be the most important thing.
go figureUmm... yes... duh.,.. jesus is at the top... but does that mean the other stuff doesn't really matter?

by the way could someone please explain how the old testament says "god is one" a million times but when the new testament comes it says "god is three"? makes no sense to us jews!

I'm not an expert on theology but I'll give it a shot.

The Trinity was made up so that Jesus could be divine without compromising the monotheist part of the 10 commandments. ("You shall have no God but me" iirc ).

Holy. Crap.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

leviticus also says that eating shellfish and pork is an abomination.
it also says that wearing cloth of mixed fibre is an abomination.
it also says that you can keep foreign slaves.
it also says that a man should be stoned to death for growing two different crops in the same field.

what's your point?

Those were Kosher laws. Abolished when Christ died for us and gave us the new covenant.

The only Kosher law here is eating shellfish. if you use an argument you better know what it's talking about. Does this mean that you can pick and choose what laws you follow? Women should only wear dresses? Women should be subservant to men for punishment because of the apple thing?

by the way could someone please explain how the old testament says "god is one" a million times but when the new testament comes it says "god is three"? makes no sense to us jews!There are 3 people who can call themselves God (with a capital G), they are the Godhead, they are Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost. They all have the same mindset, and they think the same, but they are 3 seperate people... 2 of which have bodies, and the other is a spirit.

They are three with that are one in purpose.

well, they both involve sex, do they not? it makes sense to group them all together if they involve the same subject. all the food stuff is together, is it not?

Yes, exactly. They all involve sex. If one sexual law is still valid, it makes sense that they all should be valid.

not necessarily. the grouping could simply be for convenience when it comes to refrecning, rather than establishing some kind of relationship between the two.

Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals; we're supposed to hate homosexuality.

God is love, but God is not romantic love. In the Greek, there are several forms of the word love. Homosexual love is eros love, or romantic love. God is agape love, or self-sacrificing love.

There are more facets to homosexual love than just romantic love. Two men or two women can also have self-sacrificing love.

how about this... homosexuality doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't help you to be more Christlike, it won't help you maintain your worthiness and purity (duh), and it won't get you married, and it won't produce children.... what good does it do besides unnatural companionship?

how can it be unnatural if the animals do it out in the wild? by definition, animals in the forest, in their natural habitats, do things that are natural.

Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals; we're supposed to hate homosexuality.

God is love, but God is not romantic love. In the Greek, there are several forms of the word love. Homosexual love is eros love, or romantic love. God is agape love, or self-sacrificing love.

There are more facets to homosexual love than just romantic love. Two men or two women can also have self-sacrificing love.yeah, well so can a father and son, or a father and daughter... but surely you don't think incest is OK as well, do you?

Umm... yes... duh.,.. jesus is at the top... but does that mean the other stuff doesn't really matter?

well yes, in the ways the jesus changed the whole paradigm of religion.

he has specific commandments that need to be foremost in any christians life (according to jesus) before anyone has the "right" to criticize anyone elses sins

how about this... homosexuality doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't help you to be more Christlike, it won't help you maintain your worthiness and purity (duh), and it won't get you married, and it won't produce children.... what good does it do besides unnatural companionship?

how can it be unnatural if the animals do it out in the wild? by definition, animals in the forest, in their natural habitats, do things that are natural.unnatural=something's not right about it.

Umm... yes... duh.,.. jesus is at the top... but does that mean the other stuff doesn't really matter?

well yes, in the ways the jesus changed the whole paradigm of religion.

he has specific commandments that need to be foremost in any christians life (according to jesus) before anyone has the "right" to criticize anyone elses sinsyes... but that's another thing... you were just saying that everything that didn't come out of Jesus' mouth was worthless, and can be ignored... care to defend yourself?

In Shawnnio, we do not have these issues. We do not believe in god, there are no religions or spirituality and we are all monogamous hetrosexuals who only use sex for reproduction. All couplings and marriages are decided before birth. We are the leaders of this example which should be followed by the rest of the world which is immoral, curroupt and blinded by religious rehtoric.

There are more facets to homosexual love than just romantic love. Two men or two women can also have self-sacrificing love.

True. Husbands are supposed to agapetheir wives. But when I originally made my comment, it was in response to the statement, "God is love."

In Shawnnio, we do not have these issues. We do not believe in god, there are no religions or spirituality and we are all monogamous hetrosexuals who only use sex for reproduction. All couplings and marriages are decided before birth. We are the leaders of this example which should be followed by the rest of the world which is immoral, curroupt and blinded by religious rehtoric.that's nice.

how about this... homosexuality doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't help you to be more Christlike, it won't help you maintain your worthiness and purity (duh), and it won't get you married, and it won't produce children.... what good does it do besides unnatural companionship?

how can it be unnatural if the animals do it out in the wild? by definition, animals in the forest, in their natural habitats, do things that are natural.unnatural=something's not right about it.

So nature can be un-natural? :?

Umm... yes... duh.,.. jesus is at the top... but does that mean the other stuff doesn't really matter?

well yes, in the ways the jesus changed the whole paradigm of religion.

he has specific commandments that need to be foremost in any christians life (according to jesus) before anyone has the "right" to criticize anyone elses sinsyes... but that's another thing... you were just saying that everything that didn't come out of Jesus' mouth was worthless, and can be ignored... care to defend yourself?
ut o did i? i dint mean to say that at all. lemme check back at what i wrote

Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals; we're supposed to hate homosexuality.

God is love, but God is not romantic love. In the Greek, there are several forms of the word love. Homosexual love is eros love, or romantic love. God is agape love, or self-sacrificing love.

There are more facets to homosexual love than just romantic love. Two men or two women can also have self-sacrificing love.

excellent point. in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships, it isn't just romantic love, it can be unconditional (another thing god's love is supposed to be) and it does get to a point of being self-sacrificing.

There are more facets to homosexual love than just romantic love. Two men or two women can also have self-sacrificing love.

True. Husbands are supposed to agapetheir wives. But when I originally made my comment, it was in response to the statement, "God is love." Maybe I should have rephrased it. Eros is sexual love, or physical attachment.

i dont know how you got that out of what i wrote. read it again while thinking that im in support of what jesus said and it will all come clear to you

how about this... homosexuality doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't help you to be more Christlike, it won't help you maintain your worthiness and purity (duh), and it won't get you married, and it won't produce children.... what good does it do besides unnatural companionship?

how can it be unnatural if the animals do it out in the wild? by definition, animals in the forest, in their natural habitats, do things that are natural.unnatural=something's not right about it.

So nature can be un-natural? :?lots of natural things are abominations to God... drugs... homosexuality... masturbation... rape... murder... sin in general... surely you don't think that just because something is natural, it's good... surely you remember "the apple" :)

unnatural=something's not right about it.

says you. to a 14 year old boy who finds himself attracted to his best friend rather than his best friend's girl, it's perfectly natural, though it may be uncomfortable and awkward, but since when is adolescence not awkward.

i dont know how you got that out of what i wrote. read it again while thinking that im in support of what jesus said and it will all come clear to youdo the words of jesus mean nothing to you raysian? dont they count more than anything in the old testament or the epistles?That sure sounds like you're saying that nothing in the Bible matters, unless Jesus said it.

To me it's not the issue of homosexuality, I generally believe in the "to each his/her own" philosophy. It's more a matter of societal acceptance.

It is correct to say that the majority of the western world is christian. Whether or not you believe the arguement, christian society thinks homosexuality is wrong. Right or wrong, that is what they believe. Espousing to be christian and homosexual from a social and technical standpoint is contradictive. Speaking as an American, our social norms, our laws, our customs, and traditions are based on christian values. Forcing the majority to agree with and accept the minority I find to be quite distasteful, and against the very fabric of our founding fathers' vision. Did they not afterall rebel against England for just that reason? The minority forcing the majority to do what they wanted? I find any issue where the minority is screaming for special privledge and forcing of acceptance of their views to be wrong.

My point is that the term "minority" and those associated with it should understand that thay are different than most of the rest of the people around them. No different than being the unathletic kid in gym class or the nobel prize winning scientist who understands things far beyond the normal person. There are hardships that will be endured because you are different. Celebrate being different but don't expect others to understand it or even accept it. Basic human rights are the only thing that should be equal to all...the basic truths that go beyond the boundaries of religions and cultures. Don't kill, Do unto others as you would have them do to you, Don't steal, Help the needy, Live and let live, etc.

The rest is up to you to live with and accept. If you do not accept it, then you must look into yourself and find a way to deal with it, or realize that there might be some fundamental chages you need to make. I believe in self reflection much more than I do activism.

unnatural=something's not right about it.

says you. to a 14 year old boy who finds himself attracted to his best friend rather than his best friend's girl, it's perfectly natural, though it may be uncomfortable and awkward, but since when is adolescence not awkward.Like I said:

lots of natural things are abominations to God... drugs... homosexuality... masturbation... rape... murder... sin in general... surely you don't think that just because something is natural, it's good... surely you remember "the apple"

To me it's not the issue of homosexuality, I generally believe in the "to each his/her own" philosophy. It's more a matter of societal acceptance.

It is correct to say that the majority of the western world is christian. Whether or not you believe the arguement, christian society thinks homosexuality is wrong. Right or wrong, that is what they believe. Espousing to be christian and homosexual from a social and technical standpoint is contradictive. Speaking as an American, our social norms, our laws, our customs, and traditions are based on christian values. Forcing the majority to agree with and accept the minority I find to be quite distasteful, and against the very fabric of our founding fathers' vision. Did they not afterall rebel against England for just that reason? The minority forcing the majority to do what they wanted? I find any issue where the minority is screaming for special privledge and forcing of acceptance of their views to be wrong.

My point is that the term "minority" and those associated with it should understand that thay are different than most of the rest of the people around them. No different than being the unathletic kid in gym class or the nobel prize winning scientist who understands things far beyond the normal person. There are hardships that will be endured because you are different. Celebrate being different but don't expect others to understand it or even accept it. Basic human rights are the only thing that should be equal to all...the basic truths that go beyond the boundaries of religions and cultures. Don't kill, Do unto others as you would have them do to you, Don't steal, Help the needy, Live and let live, etc.

The rest is up to you to live with and accept. If you do not accept it, then you must look into yourself and find a way to deal with it, or realize that there might be some fundamental chages you need to make. I believe in self reflection much more than I do activism.yes, but that isn't the subject of this debate... the subject is christian doctrine, and whether or not it exists beyond love god and love your neighbor.

*smacks self upside the head for being stupid*

erase all that

what im saying is, if you are a christian, shouldnt what jesus said be the MOST important thing. especially since he contradicts the religious interpretations of his time.
if you look at what he said he wants us to be loving, forgiving, simple people concerned with out own relationship with god rather than worrying about worldly concerns, like getting rich, or about the sins of other people. he was concerned that we tend to minimize our own faults while magnifying others faults

judge not lest ye be judged

lots of natural things are abominations to God... drugs... homosexuality... masturbation... rape... murder... sin in general... surely you don't think that just because something is natural, it's good... surely you remember "the apple"

again, as i said:

"says you"

i don't recall anything in the bible against drugs either. hell, jesus turned water into wine, i think god was down with drugs.

*smacks self upside the head for being stupid*

erase all that

what im saying is, if you are a christian, shouldnt what jesus said be the MOST important thing. especially since he contradicts the religious interpretations of his time.
if you look at what he said he wants us to be loving, forgiving, simple people concerned with out own relationship with god rather than worrying about worldly concerns, like getting rich, or about the sins of other people. he was concerned that we tend to minimize our own faults while magnifying others faults

judge not lest ye be judged

Well, it should be the most important thing. Christians should be loving and forgiving. Christians shouldn't carry around signs saying that "God hates gays." But when someone persists in their sins, then you need to warn them. Jesus didn't go forgive the Pharisees without their repentance, did he?

There are more facets to homosexual love than just romantic love. Two men or two women can also have self-sacrificing love.

True. Husbands are supposed to agapetheir wives. But when I originally made my comment, it was in response to the statement, "God is love." Maybe I should have rephrased it. Eros is sexual love, or physical attachment.

but then if two homosexuals have self sacrificing love, and god = self sacrificing love, then god should be cool with that, correct?

again, as i said:

"says you"

i don't recall anything in the bible against drugs either. hell, jesus turned water into wine, i think god was down with drugs.

Well, the Bible does teach that a Christian's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and should be treated accordingly. Most Christians would say that doing drugs is wrong. Addiction is definitely wrong. So is disobeying the law when it doesn't conflict with God's Word. So I would say that the occasional drink with supper is okay, and maybe the occasional cigarette, but no illegal substances, and no addiction.

But this is off-topic; maybe we should create a new thread.

*sigh*

This is why I'm not a mainstream Christian... too much ambiguity in the doctrine.

unnatural=something's not right about it.

says you. to a 14 year old boy who finds himself attracted to his best friend rather than his best friend's girl, it's perfectly natural, though it may be uncomfortable and awkward, but since when is adolescence not awkward.Like I said:

lots of natural things are abominations to God... drugs... homosexuality... masturbation... rape... murder... sin in general... surely you don't think that just because something is natural, it's good... surely you remember "the apple"
How exactly are drugs and masturbation abominations to God? I'd love to see a Bible verse that even hints at drugs and masturbation being abominations in and of themselves.

but then if two homosexuals have self sacrificing love, and god = self sacrificing love, then god should be cool with that, correct?

Well, eros is a necessary part of homosexual love, right? The romantic, physical attraction. Without it, they are merely friends. The eros is wrong.

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.

Well, the Bible does teach that a Christian's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and should be treated accordingly. Most Christians would say that doing drugs is wrong. Addiction is definitely wrong. So is disobeying the law when it doesn't conflict with God's Word. So I would say that the occasional drink with supper is okay, and maybe the occasional cigarette, but no illegal substances, and no addiction.

But this is off-topic; maybe we should create a new thread.

but in moderation, most drugs are quite safe and dont' harm the body. and what about places in the world where drugs other than alcohol and tobacco and you know, doctor recomended drugs are legal?

but yeah, it shoudl probably go in another thread.

but then if two homosexuals have self sacrificing love, and god = self sacrificing love, then god should be cool with that, correct?

Well, eros is a necessary part of homosexual love, right? The romantic, physical attraction. Without it, they are merely friends. The eros is wrong.

but then the same goes for heterosexual love. if a husband and a wife have no romantic love for each other, then they are simply friends.
so should husands and wives just be friends?

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

leviticus also says that eating shellfish and pork is an abomination.
it also says that wearing cloth of mixed fibre is an abomination.
it also says that you can keep foreign slaves.
it also says that a man should be stoned to death for growing two different crops in the same field.

what's your point?

Those were Kosher laws. Abolished when Christ died for us and gave us the new covenant.

what do you mean by kosher laws? i'm christian, but i know very well that Christ did not abolish kosher laws you a** hole! and, loser, what does jew have anything to do with leviticus? i have jewish friends who wear eat prok ans lobster. i have jewish friends that wear clothes of different fibres. so if you want to offend jews, by saying that they are the cause of anti-homosexuality in this world. and one more thing. christ did not die for us christinas. he died because he believed in jewish values, which true christian values are based on. {too bad 99% of christians dont have true values}

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.then you must be all about ignorance... because I personally know only about 5% or less of christians to actually believe crap like that. God loves us, that's why he sent his son to save us.

but then the same goes for heterosexual love. if a husband and a wife have no romantic love for each other, then they are simply friends.
so should husands and wives just be friends?

Well, no, because they are heterosexual. It is completely permissible to romantically love someone of the opposite gender.

I also created a new thread for the drugs debate.

The word "Love" in biblical context speaks of a universal love of your fellow man. It has nothing to do with sex, husband and wife, or anything else aside from the concept of treating others with respect and kindness. Anyone who says differently is selling something or pushing their own ajenda.

you must be having a bad day akaviir

what you said made no sense in response to the post you were screaming about

but then the same goes for heterosexual love. if a husband and a wife have no romantic love for each other, then they are simply friends.
so should husands and wives just be friends?

Well, no, because they are heterosexual. It is completely permissible to romantically love someone of the opposite gender.

i agree. but still, why does anyone care? let homosexuals do what they want. maybe people would not even think about it if they just kept there love life to their selves. i dont go and post everytim,e i sleep with my girlfriend.

The word "Love" in biblical context speaks of a universal love of your fellow man. It has nothing to do with sex, husband and wife, or anything else aside from the concept of treating others with respect and kindness. Anyone who says differently is selling something or pushing their own ajenda.Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

man and wife... that's all.

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.then you must be all about ignorance... because I personally know only about 5% or less of christians to actually believe crap like that. God loves us, that's why he sent his son to save us.

I have never met one christian who hasn't talked about how everone who does not believe in jesus goes to hell. ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.
Regradless of the individual, ALL cHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS. PERIOD. DISCUSSION OVER!

but then the same goes for heterosexual love. if a husband and a wife have no romantic love for each other, then they are simply friends.
so should husands and wives just be friends?

Well, no, because they are heterosexual. It is completely permissible to romantically love someone of the opposite gender.

i agree. but still, why does anyone care? let homosexuals do what they want. maybe people would not even think about it if they just kept there love life to their selves. i dont go and post everytim,e i sleep with my girlfriend.i could care less what homosexuals do... but if you care to look at the topic heading... that isn't the topic! The topic is CHRISTIANS and homosexuality... whether or not Christians can be homosexual.

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.then you must be all about ignorance... because I personally know only about 5% or less of christians to actually believe crap like that. God loves us, that's why he sent his son to save us.

I have never met one christian who hasn't talked about how everone who does not believe in jesus goes to hell. ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.
Regradless of the individual, ALL cHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS. PERIOD. DISCUSSION OVER!yeah, ummm... ignorance anyone?

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.

now thats just silly and you know it

God just told me He loves everyone, and gets really sad when people don't follow His example.
Do you people want God to cry?

you must be having a bad day akaviir

what you said made no sense in response to the post you were screaming about

yeah my bad. when i get pissed off, i kepp baabling on and on without thinking. i really need to work on that.

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.

Where does the Bible say to hate? It says to love. If Jesus was angry and vengeful, he wouldn't have come to die for us. God is love, and He loves us enough to send His son to die for us.

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.then you must be all about ignorance... because I personally know only about 5% or less of christians to actually believe crap like that. God loves us, that's why he sent his son to save us.

I have never met one christian who hasn't talked about how everone who does not believe in jesus goes to hell. ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.
Regradless of the individual, ALL cHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS. PERIOD. DISCUSSION OVER!

excuse me? can you come up with an argument to prove that to me?

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.

Where does the Bible say to hate? It says to love. If Jesus was angry and vengeful, he wouldn't have come to die for us. God is love, and He loves us enough to send His son to die for us.

The bible is full of hate. And as for jesus dying, if you died for someone and they didn't care and defiled your teachings, wouldn't you be angry?

excuse me? can you come up with an argument to prove that to me?of course not, he's a troll, and an atheist extremist :)

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.

Where does the Bible say to hate? It says to love. If Jesus was angry and vengeful, he wouldn't have come to die for us. God is love, and He loves us enough to send His son to die for us.

The bible is full of hate. And as for jesus dying, if you died for someone and they didn't care and defiled your teachings, wouldn't you be angry?

so what are you saying? weuse a time machine to kill the ancient romans?

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.

Where does the Bible say to hate? It says to love. If Jesus was angry and vengeful, he wouldn't have come to die for us. God is love, and He loves us enough to send His son to die for us.

The bible is full of hate. And as for jesus dying, if you died for someone and they didn't care and defiled your teachings, wouldn't you be angry?...yes... what is your point?

i dunno maybe my point is that we all sin

every day

big sins little sins sins we dont even realize are sins at all

why get all worried about the sins that someone else is doing that hurt no one?

concentrate instead on those sins that you are guilty of

like being judgemental

since we are all constant sinners who are saved by jesus why cant gay people be christians like the rest of us miserable sinners?

not that im a christian but you know what i mean.

The bible is full of hate. And as for jesus dying, if you died for someone and they didn't care and defiled your teachings, wouldn't you be angry?

Sure, I'd be angry. But I'm not God. God is slow to anger. Where is the Bible full of hate? Besides, there will be a day of reckoning, when people will have to account for their actions. The sheep will be separated from the goats, as the Bible says.

KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!! :twisted:

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.then you must be all about ignorance... because I personally know only about 5% or less of christians to actually believe crap like that. God loves us, that's why he sent his son to save us.

I have never met one christian who hasn't talked about how everone who does not believe in jesus goes to hell. ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.
Regradless of the individual, ALL cHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS. PERIOD. DISCUSSION OVER!

excuse me? can you come up with an argument to prove that to me?

The religious right, Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson represent all christians in the United States. Just check out anything they have to say. That is my argument.

Um, hello? God is crying because of you people right now.

i dunno maybe my point is that we all sin

every day

big sins little sins sins we dont even realize are sins at all

why get all worried about the sins that someone else is doing that hurt no one?

concentrate instead on those sins that you are guilty of

like being judgemental

since we are all constant sinners who are saved by jesus why cant gay people be christians like the rest of us miserable sinners?

not that im a christian but you know what i mean.

Well, true. We are supposed to remove the log in our own eye before we remove the splinter in our brother's. It's also true that we are all constant sinners saved by Jesus. But we are supposed to repent of our sins and ask for the Holy Spirit's help in overcoming them. If a homosexual does that and repents of their sins, then they are forgiven.

The religious right, Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson represent all christians in the United States. Just check out anything they have to say. That is my argument.

eewww thank GOD that's not true or you would be right right right.

Sorry. Dunno if this has been mentioned. And I'm posting based reading on the last 10 posts.

The word 'Love' in the bible coming from God is 'Agape' in greek. Or a unbreakable love,"Godlilke love", love that cannot be destroyed , meant to be used for married couples. (Quite the contrary compared to nowadays).

There's 3 more different kinds of love such as

eros (Sexual, consume, hence Erotic),
Philia (Brotherly, friend love) ,
Storge (Love of a parents towards a child).

When God is Love, God loves the individual even though he sins. Thats why he wants the person to repent and come back to God through Jesus Christ.

God Loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

Christians that believe Jesus Christ is angry and very vengeful obviously never have read the new testament. They have totally missed out the point why Jesus came and died for.

Because the bible says that God has poured out all his wrath on Jesus, thats why if you believe in him, all your sins are forgiven.

God is Agape Love. Correct.
God loves homosexuals.. Correct, but God doesn't love the act of it.

If there were a god, which there is not, he would hate christians and destroy them with vengence.....umm care to explain why? surely you don't lump all christians into the same group as those idiots who march down the streets with signs like "god hates fags"...

All christians believe in the same things. jesus christ is their saviour and that he is angry and vengeful. All christians are hateful people and do it in the name of christ because a book written by humans tells them to hate on the behalf of god or they will go to a mythical hell. chritianity is all about control and manipulation.then you must be all about ignorance... because I personally know only about 5% or less of christians to actually believe crap like that. God loves us, that's why he sent his son to save us.

I have never met one christian who hasn't talked about how everone who does not believe in jesus goes to hell. ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.
Regradless of the individual, ALL cHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS. PERIOD. DISCUSSION OVER!

excuse me? can you come up with an argument to prove that to me?

The religious right, Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson represent all christians in the United States. Just check out anything they have to say. That is my argument.

well, you say that you never met a christian who never who hasn't tlaked out how non-christians go to hell? you just met one. and no, three people do not reprsent all christian in the united states you idiot. and btw, the church is the most corrupted thing to have ever graced this world.

Well, true. We are supposed to remove the log in our own eye before we remove the splinter in our brother's. It's also true that we are all constant sinners saved by Jesus. But we are supposed to repent of our sins and ask for the Holy Spirit's help in overcoming them. If a homosexual does that and repents of their sins, then they are forgiven.

and so, in fact, there is no reason for gay people to be singled out as being unsuitable as christians, given the unrepentant sinner status of the vast majority of christians

The religious right, Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson represent all christians in the United States. Just check out anything they have to say. That is my argument.

There are some Christians like that, true. But not all of them are like that. I don't hate homosexuals.

the church is the most corrupted thing to have ever graced this world.

LoL. You really do hate Christians don't you? :lol:

Anyway, the church.. or the Catholic church haved actually helped millions of people world wide through the missionaries and some. Yes, lots of corruption and all, but you can't deny people who indeed saves many many many lives especially in Africa, Asia and other poor places.

BUt if thats, your opinion, I don't want to argue it with you, internet is perhaps the worst place to convince someone, because people read what they want to read.. But do take in mind.. THere's been many bad and many good.

Well, true. We are supposed to remove the log in our own eye before we remove the splinter in our brother's. It's also true that we are all constant sinners saved by Jesus. But we are supposed to repent of our sins and ask for the Holy Spirit's help in overcoming them. If a homosexual does that and repents of their sins, then they are forgiven.

and so, in fact, there is no reason for gay people to be singled out as being unsuitable as christians, given the unrepentant sinner status of the vast majority of christians

Why should they be singled out? I think those that do single them out and discriminate are idiots.
However they are living in sin just like adulterers, prostitues.. so on so forth etc. , and they know that and change, or ask for God to help them change, if they don't, well we still invite them.. But we can't help them very much. It's between God and themselves now. Lots of churches (Or my church at least), welcomes them with open arms..

the church is the most corrupted thing to have ever graced this world.

LoL. You really do hate Christians don't you? :lol:

Anyway, the church.. or the Catholic church haved actually helped millions of people world wide through the missionaries and some. Yes, lots of corruption and all, but you can't deny people who indeed saves many many many lives especially in Africa, Asia and other poor places.

BUt if thats, your opinion, I don't want to argue it with you, internet is perhaps the worst place to convince someone, because people read what they want to read.. But do take in mind.. THere's been many bad and many good.

sorryif i have been misunderstood. by church, i dont mean christianity. by church i mean the corrupted pope. by church i mean the corrupted cardinals. bychurch i mean the corrupted peopl who think that they can tell people what god wants. thats why im a protestant.

The religious right, Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson represent all christians in the United States. Just check out anything they have to say. That is my argument.

Well, I really disagree with some of them. Especially Fred Phelps. He's a real Friggin Idiot. I wouldn't agreee that they should represent all christians in the United States.

They make christians feel bad about being Christians.. :cry: Fred Phelps, feel like giving him a good solid left foot of ministry. :lol:

Well, true. We are supposed to remove the log in our own eye before we remove the splinter in our brother's. It's also true that we are all constant sinners saved by Jesus. But we are supposed to repent of our sins and ask for the Holy Spirit's help in overcoming them. If a homosexual does that and repents of their sins, then they are forgiven.

and so, in fact, there is no reason for gay people to be singled out as being unsuitable as christians, given the unrepentant sinner status of the vast majority of christians

Why should they be singled out? I think those that do single them out and discriminate are idiots.
However they are living in sin just like adulterers, prostitues.. so on so forth etc. , and they know that and change, or ask for God to help them change, if they don't, well we still invite them.. But we can't help them very much. It's between God and themselves now. Lots of churches (Or my church at least), welcomes them with open arms..

Are you saying that all homosexuals 'know that they are living in sin', but are just pretending they're not?
But you're right, it's between them and God. I just wish people would stop getting in the way.

The religious right, Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist church, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson represent all christians in the United States. Just check out anything they have to say. That is my argument.

Well, I really disagree with some of them. Especially Fred Phelps. He's a real Friggin Idiot. I wouldn't agreee that they should represent all christians in the United States.

They make christians feel bad about being Christians.. :cry: Fred Phelps, feel like giving him a good solid left foot of ministry. :lol:

god bless you.

but then the same goes for heterosexual love. if a husband and a wife have no romantic love for each other, then they are simply friends.
so should husands and wives just be friends?

Well, no, because they are heterosexual. It is completely permissible to romantically love someone of the opposite gender.


but that doesn't make sense. you don't love someone based on their sexual organs, you love them for who they are, for what they have in their brains, that's where the kind of person they are truly lies, and brains don't have sexual organs...

that really doesn't make sense to me.

sorryif i have been misunderstood. by church, i dont mean christianity. by church i mean the corrupted pope. by church i mean the corrupted cardinals. bychurch i mean the corrupted peopl who think that they can tell people what god wants. thats why im a protestant.

Yup. I'm a protestant too, and I disagree with the Catholic church. But luckily with modern printings which people are reading their bibles more, there are alot of born again catholics that don't follow the old catholic teachings anymore. The catholic church is really tied down to unbiblical tradition's and is corrupted.

but then the same goes for heterosexual love. if a husband and a wife have no romantic love for each other, then they are simply friends.
so should husands and wives just be friends?

Well, no, because they are heterosexual. It is completely permissible to romantically love someone of the opposite gender.


but that doesn't make sense. you don't love someone based on their sexual organs, you love them for who they are, for what they have in their brains, that's where the kind of person they are truly lies, and brains don't have sexual organs...

that really doesn't make sense to me.

"Oh darling, I just love your organs!"

Why should they be singled out? I think those that do single them out and discriminate are idiots.
However they are living in sin just like adulterers, prostitues.. so on so forth etc. , and they know that and change, or ask for God to help them change, if they don't, well we still invite them.. But we can't help them very much. It's between God and themselves now. Lots of churches (Or my church at least), welcomes them with open arms..

True. A ministry to homosexuals certainly wouldn't be out of place. God loves these people. Like I said earlier, homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin. It is a sin, but not an unforgivable one. It needs to be repented of just like any other sin.

I have never met one christian who hasn't talked about how everone who does not believe in jesus goes to hell.

Unless you have met all Christians, then that is meaningless. I for example, a Christian, don't think that all non-Christians go to Hell

ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.

Yes they do all believe what the Bible says, but not all of them believe that Bible says that "God hates fags" in any way shape or form. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an example where God punishes gays for being gay.

Regradless of the individual, ALL cHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS.

*coughtransubstantiation, papal infallibilty, ancient American civilizationscough*
PERIOD. DISCUSSION OVER!

I think it is for the best, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

i don't consider it a sin though. it doesn't hurt anybody, how can it be a sin?

i don't consider it a sin though. it doesn't hurt anybody, how can it be a sin?
Well, what about consensual incest? Who does that hurt? Is that still a sin?

i don't consider it a sin though. it doesn't hurt anybody, how can it be a sin?

Well I feel the same on the subject of crime. But of course we have 'victimless' crime, so I would be unsurprised that there is 'victimless' sin.

i don't consider it a sin though. it doesn't hurt anybody, how can it be a sin?
Well, what about consensual incest? Who does that hurt? Is that still a sin?it can harm potential offspring genetically.

if one partner or the other is sterile or they're using protection, then why not?

I consider myself a pre-vatican II catholic (vatican II "updated" the church to make it more liberal), and so my views are clear: homosexuality (or sodomy in general) is a horrible sinful act that should be condemmed.

Are you saying that all homosexuals 'know that they are living in sin', but are just pretending they're not?

All? Only Christian Homosexuals. Don't think Atheist Homosexuals believe there is such thing as sinning. :P
and for those Christians... It's blatantly evident in the bible.

I remember there's somewhere in the bible, (Too sleepy to find for it), where it says that if a brother lives in sin, we're supposed to help him out of it, if he doesn't want to be helped, leave him be, let god help him out. heheh.

so the bible says that god is love, correct?
in that case if god=love then love=god, or at least god would be pleased with love, correct?
so when tom and harry love each other, then god is there as well, as god is love.

how then can the love between tom and harry = sinful?
according to the bible, god is perfect and does not sin. so if god=love and love=sin then god=sin, but god!=sin, then what's the deal?
thus i conclude that love!=sin.

another thought: if god=love, then wouldn't god's counterpart, the biblical satan=hate?
so then when those people who claim to be doing god's work beat gay people to death out of hate, or restricting their freedoms for the same reason, then wouldn't they be doing satan's work?

also, the statement they claim: love the sinner, hate the sin. the sin in this instance is love. if god=love, then they're saying that they'll love the sinner and hate god, correct?

therefore, i conclude that the bible says that it's ok for gay people to be gay and the evangelists know nothing.

not that the bible should be taken as a consideration when considering laws or anything, but the most vocal opponents of homosexuals are those who have taken what they want from the book they claim to follow and left the rest for dead.

i pondered this as my dad sits discussing the bible with jehovah's witnesses and will claim that homosexuals are disgusting. what do you think?

That makes a good point I am a christain but i dont really care much about the whole gay issue i dont understand why it is such a big issue i mean its not our lives so why bother? I personally dont like the idea and it give me shivers thinking about it sometimes but last i checked Love is Love no matter what..though saying this that could aslo mean people can fall in love with animimals..but then again not m business so i dont really care whne it comes right down to it. :?

and for those Christians... It's blatantly evident in the bible.


Howso? If it is blatantly evident it should not be hard to say.

I consider myself a pre-vatican II catholic (vatican II "updated" the church to make it more liberal), and so my views are clear: homosexuality (or sodomy in general) is a horrible sinful act that should be condemmed.

curios, do you consider oral sex to be sodomy?
'cause i've heard people call all non-intercourse sexual pleasuring sodomy... but does that mean that they don't experience the joy of foreplay?

but last i checked Love is Love no matter what..though saying this that could aslo mean people can fall in love with animimals..but then again not m business so i dont really care whne it comes right down to it. :?

animals can't consent, two aduts can.

ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.

Yes they do all believe what the Bible says, but not all of them believe that Bible says that "God hates fags" in any way shape or form. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an example where God punishes gays for being gay.


The bible never says 'God hates fags', just that Hell is a placed for fags,unbbelievers.. and other sorts..

*Did you know Hell is a place for fearful people? Heh, Fear is a sin*.
Thats the purpose of Jesus.

The bible never says 'God hates fags',

That's what I said.

ALL christians believe in the same thing. Even if they do not carry picket signs they all believe what the bible says: "god hates fags" as is "paraphrased" from the bible.

Yes they do all believe what the Bible says, but not all of them believe that Bible says that "God hates fags" in any way shape or form. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an example where God punishes gays for being gay.


The bible never says 'God hates fags', just that Hell is a placed for fags,unbbelievers.. and other sorts..

*Did you know Hell is a place for fearful people? Heh, Fear is a sin*.
Thats the purpose of Jesus.

Why do 'fags' deserve to go to Hell?

I consider myself a pre-vatican II catholic (vatican II "updated" the church to make it more liberal), and so my views are clear: homosexuality (or sodomy in general) is a horrible sinful act that should be condemmed.

first of all, i must say that the entire vatican {both I and II} is one big sin. no one has the right to tell others what god wants. and that makes you a sinner.and since you say that homosexuality is a sin, does that make me a sinner because i slept with my girlfriend, and we're not married? does that make you a sinner because you are ignorant?

Why do 'fags' deserve to go to Hell?

Because an all loving and powerful God feels threatened by them.

Why do 'fags' deserve to go to Hell?

Because an all loving and powerful God feels threatened by them.

are you joking or are you retarded?

Why do 'fags' deserve to go to Hell?

Because an all loving and powerful God feels threatened by them.

are you joking or are you retarded?

Well read my previous posts and make up your mind.

Why do 'fags' deserve to go to Hell?

Because an all loving and powerful God feels threatened by them.

are you joking or are you retarded?

Well read my previous posts and make up your mind.

Noo, thats too difficult. Better to jump to conclusions.

To the anti-gay people here, I'd like to recommend this essay here:
http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/bennett.html

Especially the last part is well written:

A more recent analysis of this passage has also been made. This new analysis is independent of the question of the degree of naturalness [biological, customary, or innate] associated with homosexual behavior. It analyzes the class of persons whom Paul was addressing. Read the text carefully:

"... even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another..."

If one reads the text carefully, it seems that Paul may be criticizing heterosexuals who dabble in homosexual acts. The text seems to imply that it is wrong for heterosexuals to indulge in homosexual acts because such activities would require them to change their natural use to that which is against their nature. This would seem not to apply to homosexuals since they find homosexuality normal [innate; ingrained, customary, agreeable to the world of nature] to their being.

Rowan Williams, the current Archbishop of Cantebury, theologian and scholar, agrees that this is more of a correct evaluation of the Pauline passage. Paul does not condemn homosexuals. He condemns heterosexuals who attempt to mimic homosexual behaviors.

The lesson being: Don't take the writings of the bible too literally. It has been translated, rewritten, been added to, misinterpreted so often in the last 2000 years, that what we have now is far from what the original text was. I pity those who judge other humans based on their natural identity, which homosexuality is just like heterosexuality is aswell. Live and let live would be quite fitting here - just shut the fuck up and don't discriminate people for whatever reason, be it their skin color, their heritage or their sexual orientation.

And for some amusement, read this famous letter to Dr. Laura, which pretty much proves all my points:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp

Why do 'fags' deserve to go to Hell?

Because an all loving and powerful God feels threatened by them.

are you joking or are you retarded?

Well read my previous posts and make up your mind.

Noo, thats too difficult. Better to jump to conclusions.

your funny :evil:

I have engaged in discussions like this more times than I can recall and they all led me to one conclusion. Christianity is too intolerant and I need to find something else. I appreciate the liberal christians on this forum and if there were more of you in the world I might reconsider. To all the hellfire and brimstone "homosexuality is wrong" christians I hope that you are happy. Its your fault I am no longer a christian.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...Do not defile yourselves by any of these things" (Lev. 18:22, 24)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Lev. 20:13)

in the biblical times men were supposed to have sex with the women whenever they wanted, not asking the woman, as in raibing. the bible says that you should not take a man forcefully, that's how it is. i have been studying this so don't try to tell me wrong on this.

Joehanesburg: I can understand your feelings. I have never been religious, but considering that I am gay, I'd not feelwelcome in any religion anyway, since most of them have some warped view of how a human being is supposed to live in this planet. Thank god (errr) I can be atheist and not believe in any religion.

Joehanesburg: I can understand your feelings. I have never been religious, but considering that I am gay, I'd not feelwelcome in any religion anyway, since most of them have some warped view of how a human being is supposed to live in this planet. Thank god (errr) I can be atheist and not believe in any religion.

Well I didn't exactly say I was gonna go atheist. I am looking at Buddhism right now.

Joehanesburg: I can understand your feelings. I have never been religious, but considering that I am gay, I'd not feelwelcome in any religion anyway, since most of them have some warped view of how a human being is supposed to live in this planet. Thank god (errr) I can be atheist and not believe in any religion.

Well I didn't exactly say I was gonna go atheist. I am looking at Buddhism right now.

????? You dont just choose a religion because you think that you will feel more accepted, or it will be easier, ect. i choose being a protestant because i feel that Martin Luther's teachings are correct. I agree with St. Luther that no man has the right to tell others what god wants and means. I agree that people cannot just buy their way out of their sins. Even though i beleive that all it takes to get to heaven is a good soul, i still agree with most of the protestant beliefs. The reason that I am not a Catholic is because of the corruption of their church, and because i believe that i have the right to sleep with my girlfriend, even if i'm not married. {the urish believe that sleeping with someone before marriage is like murder} But most of all, I am not a Catholic likemost of my mother's family, because i dont want people telling me what they think god wants. you need to find a religion, that you truly believe in.

Joehanesburg: I can understand your feelings. I have never been religious, but considering that I am gay, I'd not feelwelcome in any religion anyway, since most of them have some warped view of how a human being is supposed to live in this planet. Thank god (errr) I can be atheist and not believe in any religion.

Well I didn't exactly say I was gonna go atheist. I am looking at Buddhism right now.

????? You dont just choose a religion because you think that you will feel more accepted, or it will be easier, ect. i choose being a protestant because i feel that Martin Luther's teachings are correct. I agree with St. Luther that no man has the right to tell others what god wants and means. I agree that people cannot just buy their way out of their sins. Even though i beleive that all it takes to get to heaven is a good soul, i still agree with most of the protestant beliefs. The reason that I am not a Catholic is because of the corruption of their church, and because i believe that i have the right to sleep with my girlfriend, even if i'm not married. {the urish believe that sleeping with someone before marriage is like murder} But most of all, I am not a Catholic likemost of my mother's family, because i dont want people telling me what they think god wants. you need to find a religion, that you truly believe in.

so wait, he shouldn't chose a religion because of what he wants, but you chose your religion mostly because you don't WANT people telling you what they think God wants? sorry, that seems a bit contradictory to me.

you chose to be a Protestant because you feel it fits best with the beliefs you already hold, and that's exactly what he is doing: finding a religious path that best matches his existing views on the world. why either of you would need a religion if you already have made up your minds on such things is beyond me, but that's a whole other topic. the point is that your reasons for believing as you do are no better than his, so don't criticize.

by the way could someone please explain how the old testament says "god is one" a million times but when the new testament comes it says "god is three"? makes no sense to us jews!

I'm not an expert on theology but I'll give it a shot.

The Trinity was made up so that Jesus could be divine without compromising the monotheist part of the 10 commandments. ("You shall have no God but me" iirc ).

Interesting. How would christians then deal with Deuteronomy 13:2-4

"If there appeas among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, 'let us follow and worship another god' - whom you have not experienced - even if the sign or portent that he named to you comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or that dream-diviner. For the Lord your
God is testing you to see whether you really love the Lord your God with all your heart and sout."

Jesus never says, "let us worship another god". He worshiped God more than anyone else. He is trying to help others understand and be closer to God.

God is three represents to Holy Trinity; The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. The number 3 represents God, the number 4 man. Which is why the number 7 is so common in the Bible.

Ok, I recognize this was written, oh about..8 days ago, but let's put it this way. I must have my input. The idea that 'God' thinks homosexuality is wrong and a 'sin' is completely iggnorent. According to the Christians and what other religion have you, 'God' created everything in the Universe. Whatever. Well, then he must have created homosexuality. He also created these right-wing thugs who revel in beating up gays. Which makes me want to shoot Americans...I mean..right wing redneck homophobes. So all these men are doing, back to the thread creaters point, is contradicting themselves. Christianity is one big contradiction. Not to mention it's the religion of fools. Well, I take that back. If it gives you hope, fine, whatever.But don't you dare assume to press your religion and uneducated beliefs on me as so many Christians do. It makes me sick. To add, if tom and harry are in love, why should it concern you? Is it any of your business? No. Leave people to what they want to do, you have no right to do 'Gods' work.

Okay, this is my overall post to this topic. Homosexuality is wrong. Period.
2 Timothy 3:16-ALL scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

That means, at least to my understanding, that EVERYTHING in the bible is there for a reason, is true, and is God's word. On that note

Romans 1:27-and in the same way also the men abandoned the NATURAL function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men commiting indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

This means that no one is born homosexual, because then it would be a natural thing. Also, it is indecent and an error, which I was taught was bad and not something I should want to do. And to Raysian Military Tech

Revelation 20:10,15-And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell fire for all eternity for everyone who isn't in the book of life, or saved.

Ok, I recognize this was written, oh about..8 days ago, but let's put it this way. I must have my input. The idea that 'God' thinks homosexuality is wrong and a 'sin' is completely iggnorent. According to the Christians and what other religion have you, 'God' created everything in the Universe. Whatever. Well, then he must have created homosexuality. He also created these right-wing thugs who revel in beating up gays. Which makes me want to shoot Americans...I mean..right wing redneck homophobes. So all these men are doing, back to the thread creaters point, is contradicting themselves. Christianity is one big contradiction. Not to mention it's the religion of fools. Well, I take that back. If it gives you hope, fine, whatever.But don't you dare assume to press your religion and uneducated beliefs on me as so many Christians do. It makes me sick. To add, if tom and harry are in love, why should it concern you? Is it any of your business? No. Leave people to what they want to do, you have no right to do 'Gods' work.

I wouldn't worry too much. If heaven and hell are real, most Christians mght be a bit surprised where they end up. :twisted: As for what the bible supposedly says about 'homosexual(ity)', keep in mind the word has an inherent usage problem that heterosexuality does not. Additionally, the few references to 'homosexuality' in the bible are contextual or the products of poor translation. Seems most churches/denominations are playing politics and hatemongering. It really is a sad statement on the state of the religion.

Ok, I recognize this was written, oh about..8 days ago, but let's put it this way. I must have my input. The idea that 'God' thinks homosexuality is wrong and a 'sin' is completely iggnorent. According to the Christians and what other religion have you, 'God' created everything in the Universe. Whatever. Well, then he must have created homosexuality. He also created these right-wing thugs who revel in beating up gays. Which makes me want to shoot Americans...I mean..right wing redneck homophobes. So all these men are doing, back to the thread creaters point, is contradicting themselves. Christianity is one big contradiction. Not to mention it's the religion of fools. Well, I take that back. If it gives you hope, fine, whatever.But don't you dare assume to press your religion and uneducated beliefs on me as so many Christians do. It makes me sick. To add, if tom and harry are in love, why should it concern you? Is it any of your business? No. Leave people to what they want to do, you have no right to do 'Gods' work.

I wouldn't worry too much. If heaven and hell are real, most Christians mght be a bit surprised where they end up. :twisted: As for what the bible supposedly says about 'homosexual(ity)', keep in mind the word has an inherent usage problem that heterosexuality does not. Additionally, the few references to 'homosexuality' in the bible are contextual or the products of poor translation. Seems most churches/denominations are playing politics and hatemongering. It really is a sad statement on the state of the religion.
Hatemongering, planting of fear, control over others - these have always been the reasons why religion exists. It has no other use. Homosexuals or any other minority, is suitable for discrimination and demonizing. If you got something to say it is "evil" and "sinful" then people have something to point at and release their anger at. That is all religion has ever done. Be it witch burnings during the time of the inquisition or homosexuals throughout the existence of religions - hate, fear, ignorance, violence, control over the sheep - that is what religion exists for in this world.

Hatemongering, planting of fear, control over others - these have always been the reasons why religion exists. It has no other use. Homosexuals or any other minority, is suitable for discrimination and demonizing. If you got something to say it is "evil" and "sinful" then people have something to point at and release their anger at. That is all religion has ever done. Be it witch burnings during the time of the inquisition or homosexuals throughout the existence of religions - hate, fear, ignorance, violence, control over the sheep - that is what religion exists for in this world.

Too true, and I was being a bit myopic only referring to the 'religious' stance on glbt people. It's a total crock of shiznit, nothing more.