NationStates Jolt Archive

There has been a lot of debate about who was responsible for the fall of the USSR, especially after the death of Pres. Reagan. I believe he was important, but not the most important. Rather, it was a global plan of attack carried out my many people outside of and within the USSR. Here's my list of most important.
1. Mikael Gorbachev. The most important figure that helped the Soviet Union to fall, by instituting Glasnost, Perastroika, freedom of the press and religion, and withdrawing troops from Eastern Europe. He really did help deal the final blows to the USSR.
2. Ronald Reagan. He forced communism by all means necessary out of the Western hemisphere. His arms buildup was far faster than anything the Soviets could produce, and it even wasn't wartime for us. In the Soviet Union, it technically was. Calling the Soviets the "Evil Empire", with its simple eloquence, inspired millions to express rage against the Soviets. Of course, when Gorbachev came to power, the two leaders worked together, and Reagan encouraged Gorbachev's programs.
3. Lech Walesa. He may have not been as important overall, but he did inspire millions, especially in Poland, to defy the USSR. With his values, and most importantly with Solidarity, he shook Poland to its core, and became the first free president of Poland.
4. Maggie Thatcher. She wouldn't be on here had she not been like an assistant to Reagan.
5. Yuri Andropov. He never lived to see his empire fall, but he started its fall just as Reagan started brandishing US sabers. He was an instrumental assistant to Leonid Breznev, and literally ran the country as Brezhnev got old. Andropov was probably most important for sending troops into Afghanistan. That was a big mistake, as those troops were needed to control the growing tide of resistence at home. It probably restricted their ability to build more arms, too. Andropov also may have ordered the assasination of the Pope. If he did, it was an extremely big mistake.
6. The Pope. He opposed communism both in Europe and elsewhere, but especially in Poland. By morally backing Lech Walesa, he garnered Catholics globally to aid them in their plight, making Poland the first nation liberated from the USSR.
7. Greens in Russia. Yes, they were a big help. For years, the Soviets had a general disregard for the environment. A destroyed environment wouldn't effect the government in Moscow, but it made lots of people angry. The last straw was a Soviet plan to divert Siberian rivers to Central Asia. When that plan was announced, they were the first to take advantage of glasnost.
8. The mujahaddeen. Too bad they came back to haunt us. They did a great job keeping the Soviets in Afghanistan busy.
9. Osama bin Laden. Whatever vestiges of the Cold War rivalry that liingered into the nineties ended at 9/11. It's unfortunate that such an event is needed to actually make the West and Russia allies, but it did do it, 3,000 lost lives later.
So, that's my list. Tell me, do any of you agree or dissent with this, or do you have no opinion?

Bump

I agree with you, PE. All those people played an important part in the fall of the USSR, but none of them played a "key" role. That was reserved for the U.S.S.R. itself imploding through reckless spending and severe curtailing of individual liberties.

Reagan, Gorbachev, Walesa, and Thatcher were intrusmental in the fall of the Berlin Wall. There's nothing more to it.

Reagan, Gorbachev, Walesa, and Thatcher were intrusmental in the fall of the Berlin Wall. There's nothing more to it.
Well, if you're gonna keep it that simplified, include the Pope. Without him, Walesa would've been a little blip on the Soviet radar, and not the 1000lb gorilla he was.

You missed Yeltsin. If it wasn't for Gorbachev's overly trusting nature, Yeltsin would have never been able to outmaneuver him and declare the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Andropov wanted to continue his Soviet Union and had he managed to take over the Communist party he'd have done it too with another round of purges.

You missed Krushnev (sp?), who was basically formed the ideas behind perestroika and glasnost. Without his tutorship, Gorbachev would have never come to power.

Everything else looks good to me.

You missed Yeltsin. If it wasn't for Gorbachev's overly trusting nature, Yeltsin would have never been able to outmaneuver him and declare the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Andropov wanted to continue his Soviet Union and had he managed to take over the Communist party he'd have done it too with another round of purges.

You missed Krushnev (sp?), who was basically formed the ideas behind perestroika and glasnost. Without his tutorship, Gorbachev would have never come to power.

Everything else looks good to me.Yeltsin had nothing to do with the collapse. He was the guy in charge of the cleanup after all was said and done.

I do agree about Andropov. Old Yuri was set to re-harden the line.

Khruschev had, at best, some influence...kinda the same way Aristotle has some influence on this website. If you're going to give a 1960's could-have-been reformer credit for the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1980's and 90's (and I wouldn't, given how close he came to throwing the world into a nuclear holocaust in 1963,) then you also have to give Stalin credit, since it was under his regime that the Soviet Union became the aggressor worldwide.

I'm going to bed now, but I just wish to say, some of you have 1989 and 1991 confused. There is a difference, very different forces involved.

I'm going to bed now, but I just wish to say, some of you have 1989 and 1991 confused. There is a difference, very different forces involved.
Either year was a blow for the Soviets. 1991 just stated the obvious about the USSR: they died.

Either year was a blow for the Soviets. 1991 just stated the obvious about the USSR: they died.
The distinction matters, if one is trying to apportion credit and blame.

I've got another name for you--Gyula Horn. (http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=7819)

Who? Gyula Horn was the foreign minister of Hungary in 1989. Michael Tomasky makes the case for him in the article I linked above. Here's the basics.
During the Warsaw Pact years, many Easterners took their vacations in Hungary. In particular, German families rent by the Cold War would often meet up there for a week or two and then repatriate. The presence of so many Westerners created an obviously delicate situation in which many Easterners were tempted to flee with their relatives through neighboring Austria; for years, then, security along the Austrian-Hungarian had been as tight as anywhere in the East.

But Hungary, in the wake of certain reformist developments in the East throughout the 1980s, was a different place by 1989; there was a vibrant anti-communist -- one might even say, if one dares, "liberal" -- culture centering around figures like the dissident writers Miklos Haraszti and György Konrád. And then, through one of those acts of historical alchemy for which there is little rational accounting, with thousands of East Germans in the country in late August 1989, something happened.

Hungarian border guards started letting a few East Germans pass into Austria, then cutting holes in the barbed wire. Word quickly spread, and East Germans flocked to Hungary for their chance to head into the West. In short order, Hungary had a full-fledged refugee crisis on its hands.

Enter Gyula Horn. Hungary at this point was bound by two clashing treaties -- one with East Germany, which forbade the Magyar state from permitting East Germans to cross into the West; and another international human-rights accord Hungary had signed pledging humane treatment of refugees. And Horn, on September 10, made his fateful decision: He decided that Hungary would honor its international commitment. He abrogated the treaty with East Berlin. Suddenly, East Germans were flocking into Austria through Hungary by the thousands.

Well, that was it. Within weeks, the refugee crisis spread to East Germany itself, first to Leipzig (if you're old enough, you remember the nightly news footage of hundreds of cars lined up at Leipzig checkpoints, drivers frantically honking their horns in celebration), and then to Berlin. Soon enough, the Berlin Wall came down. That was the end of the East. It took until 1991 for the Soviet Union to close up shop officially, but it was clear by the fall of 1989 that the Communist era was over. And the end began not on Pennsylvania Avenue, but at the Austria-Hungary border.

The people you mention certainly have their places in this story, but so does Gyula Horn. I thought it was a fascinating story.

You missed Yeltsin. If it wasn't for Gorbachev's overly trusting nature, Yeltsin would have never been able to outmaneuver him and declare the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Andropov wanted to continue his Soviet Union and had he managed to take over the Communist party he'd have done it too with another round of purges.

You missed Krushnev (sp?), who was basically formed the ideas behind perestroika and glasnost. Without his tutorship, Gorbachev would have never come to power.

Everything else looks good to me.
Yeltsin, as Panhandlia said, was just part of the cleanup committee. However, he did a lot to shape modern Russia, and I generally like how it turned out. I liked Yeltsin, because even though he caused severe economic suffering in his term, he laid the framework for Russia to make a nice rebound. Even if it isn't in the greatest political position, Russians are now better off economically, and have far more rights, than under the USSR. Kruschev was also very important, but not directly with the fall of the USSR. He merely carried out the legacy of Stalin: leaving Russia industrialized, yet souless, ruthless, and evil. At least Stalin was extremely good at showing strength, and if things were going very bad, there was always forced labor. His successors used Stalinist policies less and less, but even when they did, it really didn't work in saving Russia. Stalin was one of a kind in that sense, and despite how horrible he was, he was a brilliant dictator.

I've got another name for you--Gyula Horn. (http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=7819)

Who? Gyula Horn was the foreign minister of Hungary in 1989. Michael Tomasky makes the case for him in the article I linked above. Here's the basics.
During the Warsaw Pact years, many Easterners took their vacations in Hungary. In particular, German families rent by the Cold War would often meet up there for a week or two and then repatriate. The presence of so many Westerners created an obviously delicate situation in which many Easterners were tempted to flee with their relatives through neighboring Austria; for years, then, security along the Austrian-Hungarian had been as tight as anywhere in the East.

But Hungary, in the wake of certain reformist developments in the East throughout the 1980s, was a different place by 1989; there was a vibrant anti-communist -- one might even say, if one dares, "liberal" -- culture centering around figures like the dissident writers Miklos Haraszti and György Konrád. And then, through one of those acts of historical alchemy for which there is little rational accounting, with thousands of East Germans in the country in late August 1989, something happened.

Hungarian border guards started letting a few East Germans pass into Austria, then cutting holes in the barbed wire. Word quickly spread, and East Germans flocked to Hungary for their chance to head into the West. In short order, Hungary had a full-fledged refugee crisis on its hands.

Enter Gyula Horn. Hungary at this point was bound by two clashing treaties -- one with East Germany, which forbade the Magyar state from permitting East Germans to cross into the West; and another international human-rights accord Hungary had signed pledging humane treatment of refugees. And Horn, on September 10, made his fateful decision: He decided that Hungary would honor its international commitment. He abrogated the treaty with East Berlin. Suddenly, East Germans were flocking into Austria through Hungary by the thousands.

Well, that was it. Within weeks, the refugee crisis spread to East Germany itself, first to Leipzig (if you're old enough, you remember the nightly news footage of hundreds of cars lined up at Leipzig checkpoints, drivers frantically honking their horns in celebration), and then to Berlin. Soon enough, the Berlin Wall came down. That was the end of the East. It took until 1991 for the Soviet Union to close up shop officially, but it was clear by the fall of 1989 that the Communist era was over. And the end began not on Pennsylvania Avenue, but at the Austria-Hungary border.

The people you mention certainly have their places in this story, but so does Gyula Horn. I thought it was a fascinating story.
It certainly is. While I'm not discrediting his importance, I will say this, though. Many before him have lain the groundwork. Gyula Horn made the Communists fall with a bang, but without him, the Soviet Union would certainly fall. Without some of the others, however, I wouldn't be so sure. Especially if it weren't for Gorachev, Reagan, Walesa, and the Pope.

Either year was a blow for the Soviets. 1991 just stated the obvious about the USSR: they died.
The distinction matters, if one is trying to apportion credit and blame.
I'm guessing you mean the fall of communism, and the fall of the reformed USSR. They were really the same forces. Stalin forced Russia and the other republics into a union of a mishmash of ethnicities, religions, and languages. With the fall of communism, it was all but inevitable for the USSR, now a tired machine, to dissolve. It was hacked into pieces by Yeltsin, a few nationalists to the West, and some Islamic radicals in the south. It was a different cast that made the actual dissolution of the USSR happen, but by 1989, it was over. The cold heart of communism was broken forever.

You missed Yeltsin. If it wasn't for Gorbachev's overly trusting nature, Yeltsin would have never been able to outmaneuver him and declare the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Andropov wanted to continue his Soviet Union and had he managed to take over the Communist party he'd have done it too with another round of purges.

You missed Krushnev (sp?), who was basically formed the ideas behind perestroika and glasnost. Without his tutorship, Gorbachev would have never come to power.

Everything else looks good to me.Yeltsin had nothing to do with the collapse. He was the guy in charge of the cleanup after all was said and done.

I do agree about Andropov. Old Yuri was set to re-harden the line.

Khruschev had, at best, some influence...kinda the same way Aristotle has some influence on this website. If you're going to give a 1960's could-have-been reformer credit for the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1980's and 90's (and I wouldn't, given how close he came to throwing the world into a nuclear holocaust in 1963,) then you also have to give Stalin credit, since it was under his regime that the Soviet Union became the aggressor worldwide.

To me Krushnev does deserve credit since his ideads strongly influenced Gorbachev's views. A whole generation of Soviet communists were still "true believers", but saw that the S.U. needed to change.

As for Yeltsin...Gorbachev left the Kremlin for the weekend in order to rest. Yeltsin along with 2 other representative of the Ukrainian and one other area announced the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He deserves mention, even though all he did was make it official. Gorbachev never announced the Soviet Union was done. Yeltsin made his old friend obsolete, along with his job.

The Samizdat writers of the Soviet Union.

Mikhail Bulgakov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bulgakov) who wrote the fantastic The Master and Margarita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita)

Solzhenitsyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Solzhenitsyn) who wrote The Gulag Archipelago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago).

You missed David Hasselhoff.

I credit Yachov Smirnoff. Because of his devastatingly annoying form of stand-up, you know, the whole, "In Soviet Russia, the cab calls YOU!" and the "America, what a country!" crap, the USSR, in a rare display of global harmony, dissolved just to shut him the hell up. 8)

I'm guessing you mean the fall of communism, and the fall of the reformed USSR. They were really the same forces...It was a different cast that made the actual dissolution of the USSR happen, but by 1989, it was over.
That is sort of the point that I was making. Someone wanted to credit Yeltsin with something - a laughable idea.

I credit Yachov Smirnoff. Because of his devastatingly annoying form of stand-up, you know, the whole, "In Soviet Russia, the cab calls YOU!" and the "America, what a country!" crap, the USSR, in a rare display of global harmony, dissolved just to shut him the hell up. 8)
Now that is a very good point, I must admit. Whatever happened to Old Yachov?? Not that I care muc, I just want to stay as far as I can from him.

Purly. do you enjoy being completely stupid, much like your alzheimers friend Ronald Reagan who got his commupence from God?

Purly. do you enjoy being completely stupid, much like your alzheimers friend Ronald Reagan who got his commupence from God?
"Pot, I'd like you to meet Kettle."
Kettle: "You're black!"
Pot: "No, you are!"

Of course, this over-simplifies, since PE actually brings good points.

So does Osama Bin Laden in his wishes to get the Americans out of Saudi Arabia.

PE simply is another American who believes that thier Presidents are almost mocarch like. I am sorry but this is not the case. Only in America is democracy so distorted, only America is hated Universally.

Purly. do you enjoy being completely stupid, much like your alzheimers friend Ronald Reagan who got his commupence from God?

Knock it off.. consider yourself warned.

Stephanie
Game Moderator

"if we dont believe in free speech for those we despise, we dont believe in it at all"

"if we dont believe in free speech for those we despise, we dont believe in it at all"

Sure, free speech away.. don't insult other players and don't post flamebait and you'll be fine. You have a right to your opinion, but you don't have a right to be insulting to other players on this site, nor do you have a right to post threads that will incite flame-wars and are flamebait. Find a constructive way to express your opinions.

Stephanie
Game Moderator

I'm guessing you mean the fall of communism, and the fall of the reformed USSR. They were really the same forces...It was a different cast that made the actual dissolution of the USSR happen, but by 1989, it was over.
That is sort of the point that I was making. Someone wanted to credit Yeltsin with something - a laughable idea.
All Yeltsin did was some cleanup. Besides, I feel that 1991 should be regarded as insignificant in the Cold War. That year, all that happpened was that the USSR was taken out of its misery. In fact, a few months before, they joined the coalition to oust Saddam Hussein's forces from Kuwait. That'd have been an unthinkable action on their part only a few years before.

So does Osama Bin Laden in his wishes to get the Americans out of Saudi Arabia.

PE simply is another American who believes that thier Presidents are almost mocarch like. I am sorry but this is not the case. Only in America is democracy so distorted, only America is hated Universally.
I don't believe he's monarch like, not at all. Presidents are just celebrated like monarchs in death because they rule as citizens in life. If they are any kind of monarch, they are closer to Augustus than Louis XIV, and Augustus wasn't even an elected official.
And as I keep saying, America is not a democracy, and I'm proud of it. Democracies ruin nations, and as far as modern nations go, the US is one of the least democratic nations in existence. That doesn't mean, however, that we are the most oppressed. Quite to the contrary, we are one of the most liberal (with a lowercase "l") nations on the planet. It's because we are a republic, and a dictatorship by majority is impossible. Only now are we democratizing, and consequentially, some of our rights seem threatened.

Purly. do you enjoy being completely stupid, much like your alzheimers friend Ronald Reagan who got his commupence from God?

Knock it off.. consider yourself warned.

Stephanie
Game Moderator
Lay off, Steph. He's fostering debate.

Now that is a very good point, I must admit. Whatever happened to Old Yachov?? Not that I care muc, I just want to stay as far as I can from him.
Branson, Missouri.

Yakov Smirnoff! (http://www.yakov.com/default.html)

Now that is a very good point, I must admit. Whatever happened to Old Yachov?? Not that I care muc, I just want to stay as far as I can from him.
Branson, Missouri.

Yakov Smirnoff! (http://www.yakov.com/default.html)

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:shock:

I think the person who carries the most responsibility for the fall of the Soviet Union was a chap called Joseph Djugashvili.

I think the person who carries the most responsibility for the fall of the Soviet Union was a chap called Joseph Djugashvili.Fine...tell us why.

I think the person who carries the most responsibility for the fall of the Soviet Union was a chap called Joseph Djugashvili.Fine...tell us why.

Because it was his actions, almost alone, which generated the hostility against the Soviet Union, from both within and without, which lead to its dissolution.

I think the person who carries the most responsibility for the fall of the Soviet Union was a chap called Joseph Djugashvili.Fine...tell us why.

Because it was his actions, almost alone, which generated the hostility against the Soviet Union, from both within and without, which lead to its dissolution.General statements are ok, but more specificity would be nice. The name doesn't register on my knowledge about the USSR, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

General statements are ok, but more specificity would be nice.

Large scale purges of 'enemies of the people', including those in the Central Committee, deportation or relocation of people based on nationality, gross mismanagement of the military which lead to victory in war at almost unbelievable cost and the beginning of active Soviet empire building.