NationStates Jolt Archive

Hmm...Huh....Pardon me Mr. Blix, but your extra large order of crow is ready with a side of humility. Yours too Mr. Kennedy.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html

Friday, June 11, 2004
The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the council on June 9 that "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.
"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.

He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey.

The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters – the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.

"It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for," Ewen Buchanan, Perricos's spokesman, said. "You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax."

The UNMOVIC report said Iraqi missiles were dismantled and exported to such countries as Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Dutch city of Rotterdam, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile, one of at least 12, was discovered in a junk yard, replete with UN tags. In Jordan, UN inspectors found 20 SA-2 engines as well as components for solid-fuel for missiles.

"The problem for us is that we don't know what may have passed through these yards and other yards elsewhere," Buchanan said. "We can't really assess the significance and don't know the full extent of activity that could be going on there or with others of Iraq's neighbors."

UN inspectors have assessed that the SA-2 and the short-range Al Samoud surface-to-surface missile were shipped abroad by agents of the Saddam regime. Buchanan said UNMOVIC plans to inspect other sites, including in Turkey.

In April, International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohammed El Baradei said material from Iraqi nuclear facilities were being smuggled out of the country.

The SA-2 comes close to predating my parents. Found in a junkyard? Not surprised!

And, OMG, some home-brew kits have gone missing.

Clutching at straws.

Vote John Kerry if you want to talk to leaders about accounting for their nuclear and chemical arms.

Vote Bush if you want us to actually do something about them ;)

The SA-2 comes close to predating my parents. Found in a junkyard? Not surprised!

And, OMG, some home-brew kits have gone missing.

Clutching at straws.

You're mising the bigger picture...

First, yes, the SA-2 is from the early 60's and is a SAM not a WMD. However...why were weapons components shipped over the Iraqi border. Its a big, empty desert out there.

Bad intel. Bad intel. Bad intel. The CIA really screwed itself, with bad intel. Although I do and did support the war, for the other causes. Remember, WMDs were not the only cause of the US liberating Iraq.

The SA-2 comes close to predating my parents. Found in a junkyard? Not surprised!

And, OMG, some home-brew kits have gone missing.

Clutching at straws.

You're mising the bigger picture...

First, yes, the SA-2 is from the early 60's and is a SAM not a WMD. However...why were weapons components shipped over the Iraqi border. Its a big, empty desert out there.

The bigger and emptier desert is the USA claims of WMDs.

Even Bush and Powell have backed down on the claims, blaming "faulty intelligence" (usually provided by the same shonky Iraqi exiles they helped into power).

Do try to keep up.

However...why were weapons components shipped over the Iraqi border. Its a big, empty desert out there.
Because scrap dealers have to make a living?

Do you know how much wrecked military kit is in Iraq? Some of it is decent quality steel. No-one is going to check what it is, they are going to take the stuff, melt it down, and use it in the construction industry.

Jordan and Turkey are hardly Axis of Evil countries. Both are in fact allies of the West. And the Netherlands? Hardly. I think what you are seeing is the usual stripping down of a wrecked state. Any terrorist who finds himself in possession of a dented seized-up 1960s SAM engine with half its parts replaced with sand is going to be disappointed. Terrorists just are not that sophisticated. If there is one thing they will go for, it is military grade explosives, in second place, shoulder-launched missiles. Think of it as an investment. You can take on the risk, time and expense of messing around with a SAM engine, or you can do a few quick and cheap car bombs. It's obvious what's happening.

Bad intel. Bad intel. Bad intel. The CIA really screwed itself, with bad intel. Although I do and did support the war, for the other causes. Remember, WMDs were not the only cause of the US liberating Iraq.

But they were the cause for us going in there hell-bent in a lather and against the wishes of the rest of the world. There was an "immenent threat" of Saddam using WMDs against the US as well as "hard intelligence" that he was trying to buy nuclear arms components from Africa. The nuclear arms charge has been shown to be a huge fabrication and so far, the few WMD found have neither posed an immenent threat to the US or been significant enough to justify the invasion of the country. All the other justifications came later after the WMDs didn't turn up and the nuclear parts were disproven.

Bad intel. Bad intel. Bad intel. The CIA really screwed itself, with bad intel. Although I do and did support the war, for the other causes. Remember, WMDs were not the only cause of the US liberating Iraq.

But they were the cause for us going in there hell-bent in a lather and against the wishes of the rest of the world. There was an "immenent threat" of Saddam using WMDs against the US as well as "hard intelligence" that he was trying to buy nuclear arms components from Africa. The nuclear arms charge has been shown to be a huge fabrication and so far, the few WMD found have neither posed an immenent threat to the US or been significant enough to justify the invasion of the country. All the other justifications came later after the WMDs didn't turn up and the nuclear parts were disproven.

I have to agree with Berk for once. The entire stated justification for a rush to war was not the possession of WMD's which we knew he's had (psst! don't tell anybody else but his daddy sold them to him) but that he was an immenent threat.

Looks like Messers Blix and Kennedy can go back to steak tonight.

SHL

Imagine that you are an evil dictator, but possess weapons of mass destruction.

You are threatened with invasion by two of the world's superpowers, backed up by various allies.

Do you :

dismantle your weapons?

give them away to your friends and neighbours?

sell them to the highest bidder?

sell them as scrap?

or use them to defend your regime?

Now, having considered the realistic situation, can you really believe that WMDs existed in Iraq, and posed an "imminent threat" to anyone?

Sorry, DP.
A new server, a new server, my kingdom for a new server! :lol:

The SA-2 comes close to predating my parents. Found in a junkyard? Not surprised!

And, OMG, some home-brew kits have gone missing.

Clutching at straws.

You're mising the bigger picture...

First, yes, the SA-2 is from the early 60's and is a SAM not a WMD. However...why were weapons components shipped over the Iraqi border. Its a big, empty desert out there.

The bigger and emptier desert is the USA claims of WMDs.

Even Bush and Powell have backed down on the claims, blaming "faulty intelligence" (usually provided by the same shonky Iraqi exiles they helped into power).

Do try to keep up.
No, not really. Most of our intelligence comes from the CIA. It's way too bureaucratic and dysfunctional ever since the end of the Cold War. The only improvement has been the increased cooperation with the FBI.
Some of the intelligence was provided by Iraqi exiles, but are they really in power now? Look at Ahmed Chalabi. I've never trusted him, but he even surpassed my fears. I'm afraid he's playing a deadly political game to try and get the US and Iran into a faceoff.

Hmm...Huh....Pardon me Mr. Blix, but your extra large order of crow is ready with a side of humility. Yours too Mr. Kennedy.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html

Friday, June 11, 2004
The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the council on June 9 that "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.
"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.

He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey.

The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters – the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.

"It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for," Ewen Buchanan, Perricos's spokesman, said. "You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax."

The UNMOVIC report said Iraqi missiles were dismantled and exported to such countries as Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Dutch city of Rotterdam, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile, one of at least 12, was discovered in a junk yard, replete with UN tags. In Jordan, UN inspectors found 20 SA-2 engines as well as components for solid-fuel for missiles.

"The problem for us is that we don't know what may have passed through these yards and other yards elsewhere," Buchanan said. "We can't really assess the significance and don't know the full extent of activity that could be going on there or with others of Iraq's neighbors."

UN inspectors have assessed that the SA-2 and the short-range Al Samoud surface-to-surface missile were shipped abroad by agents of the Saddam regime. Buchanan said UNMOVIC plans to inspect other sites, including in Turkey.

In April, International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohammed El Baradei said material from Iraqi nuclear facilities were being smuggled out of the country.
Of course, the line will be "you see! this shows Saddam was complying with the UN!"...too bad it was "only" 12 years after the UN ordered him to get rid of the damn things AND provide proof of compliance. Somehow, kicking inspectors out for 5 years, doesn't quite measure up to "complying."

Where are the WMDs?

In Bush's back pocket, of course... :wink:

Where are the WMDs?

In Bush's back pocket, of course... :wink:

Hope he's careful when he sits down then.
:lol:

Of course, the line will be "you see! this shows Saddam was complying with the UN!"...too bad it was "only" 12 years after the UN ordered him to get rid of the damn things AND provide proof of compliance. Somehow, kicking inspectors out for 5 years, doesn't quite measure up to "complying."

Actually, Saddam voluntarily declared in '02 that 13 of 40 tests of the new versions of his Al Sammoud had exceeded the 97-mile limit. He argued, however, that those tests occured where the rockets were fired without payload and that his scientists did not believe that loaded missile would fail the compliance rules.

The US and UN disagreed, and asked for them to be destroyed in February '03

HEre is Blix's statement on Feb 22, '03 requesting their destruction: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2790831.stm

Here, after some disagreements back and forth about the real effective range, Iraq backed down and started destroying them about two weeks later on March 2, '03: http://uttm.com/stories/2003/03/02/iraq/main542460.shtml

Indeed, Hans Blix was VERY complimentary about the speed at which he complied and started the destruction.
http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/742

But the war began less than three weeks later before the job was completed. And if you read the articles - you will note a pretty interesting quote from the Bush side of things:

Merci Viana, a spokeswoman, said. "The president has always predicted that Iraq would destroy its Al Samoud missiles as part of its game of deception."

Oh yes... complying by destroying a marginal violation is ....deceptive?

This was all when the US was insisting that IRaq still had huge WMD stockpiles, and were proclaiming the destruction of the Al Sammouds to be a dog and pony show to distract from the reall WMD that they were looking for.

But where are those stockpiles?

Oh right....

These missiles were nothing. No threat. Never were. And Bush knew it. They just became another bargaining chip to try and paint Saddam as being in control of dangerous weapons

But nice job playing fast and loose with the facts. 12 years my ass!

-Z-

And, as a further point to the idiocy of the stated interpretation of this article:

Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.



The US forces entered Baghdad on April 5, 2003. On May 2, 2003 GW made his infamous speech from the deck of the aircraft carrier declaring victory.

So if entire facilities are dissapearing in Iraq since then - it sure as hell is NOT Saddam's fault. If anything, it simply points more fingers at the complete incompetence of the forces to properly secure Iraq.

Because the premise is:

a) This was a known missile/wmd site So well known that they photographed it.
b) This site has been completely stripped.

Shouldn't the people running the country (read as: The American Forces) taken the neccessary steps to secure such a critical and well known WMD facility? Shouldn't they be coming forward with contrition that they failed in this regard rather than making some implausible, lame-assed excuse like "Saddam did this after being defeated because he really, really, really wanted to sell missiles to a scrap dealer in Jordan"?

Blix eat crow? Not for this! How about Bush apologize. That seems far more appropriate an expectation from this screw-up.

-Z-

Sorry, DP.
A new server, a new server, my kingdom for a new server! :lol:

LOL!! They say it's coming soon... :?

Where are the WMD?
UNDER THE COUCH AMERICAN PIG-DOGS!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry, DP.
A new server, a new server, my kingdom for a new server! :lol:

LOL!! They say it's coming soon... :?since the start of May, we were supposed to be on Jolt.

Sorry, DP.
A new server, a new server, my kingdom for a new server! :lol:

LOL!! They say it's coming soon... :?since the start of May, we were supposed to be on Jolt.

Perhaps we've slipped into a time warp.

Perhaps someone needs to be given a jolt.