NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't see the point of it really. Vegetarians are missing out on a lot of fine cuisine by not eating meat. They also are damn hard to entertain at a dinner party.

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Because we have (the illusion of) free will.

Vegetarianism often results in disease caused by vitamin B defieiency, particularly for vegans.

The best two arguments that I know against this peculiar practice are :

1. Your teeth - the ones called "canines" are designed for tearing and cutting meat.

2. The most famous vegetarian I know of his Adolf Hitler - so it seems to not have the calming and soothing effects some claim.

They try to avoid killing anything. Also, it's supposedly good for you.

Don't see the point of it really. Vegetarians are missing out on a lot of fine cuisine by not eating meat. They also are damn hard to entertain at a dinner party.

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Why wear clothes? Why make computers? Lots of things humans do go against nature. People most often become vegetarians because they disapprove of how livestock animals are treated.

However, you are right that humans are omnivorous, which means that vegetarians need to carefully watch what they eat and often eat supplemental vitamins to get everything they need. On the other hand, a recent study showed that about 30% of Americans' diet consists of junk food empty calories, i.e. calories without vitamins and minerals, so vegetarians aren't the only ones risking malnourishment.

I can see the rational behind veganism and if they can stick with it, good luck to them.

I can even see why some people a partial vegi because they don’t like the taste of meat (but they still find it hard to refuse a bacon butty).

But if they think it’s cruel to eat meat then why aren’t they vegans? Can’t see how you can be a vegi on moral grounds and not a vegan.

I think one of the reasons we have more vegis is that as children many people are removed from the reality of where meat comes from. Then when they find out that those fluffy sheep they think are so cute are what is on their plate, they find that unpalatable. So don’t shelter children from the reality of where meat comes from.

Personally, I think game meat is far better tasting than most farmed meat. Might be something to do with the life of the animal or their food and a lot to do with the lack of drugs and chemicals.

I love meat but if some one does not want to eat it, fine, their choice, just don’t badger me about it!

its because the animals are kept in cages, forced to breed, and then killed. I would be happy to eat meat if the animals were left in the wild and u had to hunt and kill your own

Don't see the point of it really. Vegetarians are missing out on a lot of fine cuisine by not eating meat. They also are damn hard to entertain at a dinner party.

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

True, we are omminovores, but, with a heavy enphysis and vegetarianism. Are teeth, for one, are better designed for grinding plant based foods than they are for meat. We possess flat topped molars, not slicing carnissal teeth. Our incisors are large relative to our canines - a herbivourus trait. Another clue to our (mainly) herbivourus ancestory is that we are able to rotate our jaws (watch a cow "chew the cud" and you see). Carnivours simply cannot do this. Furthermore, our massater muscles (a jaw muscle) is far more developed than our temporal (another jaw muscle). The temporal muscle is much more prominent (and is the main jaw muscle) in carnivors.

Homo Sapiens, as mainly herbivours must also eat quite frequently to gain an optimal physical/mental preformance. Carnivors on the other hand, tend to eat infrequently, but in much larger portains when they do eat.

In addition, our intestinal tract is rather long and complex - unlike a carnivour's (compare for example, the intestinal tracts of sheep and dogs and you will know what I am saying). Our livers are simply not desighned to expell huge amounts of cholestorol - again, unlike a carnivour's. We simply do not possess the right adaptations for eating large amounts of meat like a wolf or lion can.

Personally, I eat meat, but only raw. I grew up in the north about a hundred miles from Montreal. I will eat raw elk, moose and deer. Why? Well because, I find it's much better for you (none of that irradiated, anti-biotic, steroid infested commercial crap - which I consider "tainted" garbage!) and I also find it tastes so much better. I enjoy the feeling as it slides down my cavernous throat.

I love steak its good but I don't like the hormone, antibiotic, and irradiated stuff they sell in stores. I buy whole cows from farms that dont add the unnatural things and then slaughter it and eat it. MMMMM steak.

O yea and beef jerky the best food.

I love steak its good but I don't like the hormone, antibiotic, and irradiated stuff they sell in stores. I buy whole cows from farms that dont add the unnatural things and then slaughter it and eat it. MMMMM steak.

You are wise to do so, refer to my post above. . .

Vegetarianism often results in disease caused by vitamin B defieiency, particularly for vegans.

This is, however, easily avoidable with just a smidgeon of care and thought about your diet - about as much effort as is required to make sure that one cares for meat or dairy products carefully if one keeps and eats them: something us vegans need worry less about due to lower risk of infection from non-animal products.

(writes a vegan for 14 years with no visible ill effects)

Edit: grammar stuff.

Vegetarianism often results in disease caused by vitamin B defieiency, particularly for vegans.

This is, however, easily avoidable with just a smidgeon of care and thought about your diet - about as much effort as is required to make sure that one cares for meat or dairy products carefully if one keeps and eats it: something us vegans need worry less about due to lower risk of infection from non-animal products.

(writes a vegan for 14 years with no visible ill effects)

Well, you certainly possess more disipline than I do :lol: But, of course I value fruits and vegetables as well - all those anti-oxidents you see. . . :wink:

I don't even like red meat or chicken. I only really eat fish on a regular basis.

I don't even like red meat or chicken. I only really eat fish on a regular basis.

I eat fish myself - quite often too. A balanced diet is the key (or at least one of them) to great health and vitality.

its because the animals are kept in cages, forced to breed, and then killed. I would be happy to eat meat if the animals were left in the wild and u had to hunt and kill your own

It is quite easy to buy meat (although you pay more for it) from humane/organic/free range producers. I myself try to do this as often as possible - The meat tastes better.

I just have to say this:
ANIMALS ON FARMS ARE BRED TO BE EATEN.
This is life. It's eat or be eaten. You are still killing plants when you eat them, so maybe you shouldn't eat them either. But humans cannot survive on water alone. Even then you are ending the lives of the miniscule creatures in the water.
If you believe vegitables are better for your health, go for it. But this mumbo jumbo about killing animals is crap. You can't just let a cow go to the wild after it is used to being milked and fed on a daily basis. Although i have heard stories of boars turning wild and growing tusks.

Also, i am a hunter, but every one cannot hunt. It is impossible. The woods would be crammed. Animals would be pushed to extinction. I like the thrill of hunting, but you don't always bag a deer. One would starve before he or she provides for their family.

Don't see the point of it really. Vegetarians are missing out on a lot of fine cuisine by not eating meat. They also are damn hard to entertain at a dinner party.

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

True, we are omminovores, but, with a heavy enphysis and vegetarianism. Are teeth, for one, are better designed for grinding plant based foods than they are for meat. We possess flat topped molars, not slicing carnissal teeth. Our incisors are large relative to our canines - a herbivourus trait. Another clue to our (mainly) herbivourus ancestory is that we are able to rotate our jaws (watch a cow "chew the cud" and you see). Carnivours simply cannot do this. Furthermore, our massater muscles (a jaw muscle) is far more developed than our temporal (another jaw muscle). The temporal muscle is much more prominent (and is the main jaw muscle) in carnivors.

Homo Sapiens, as mainly herbivours must also eat quite frequently to gain an optimal physical/mental preformance. Carnivors on the other hand, tend to eat infrequently, but in much larger portains when they do eat.

In addition, our intestinal tract is rather long and complex - unlike a carnivour's (compare for example, the intestinal tracts of sheep and dogs and you will know what I am saying). Our livers are simply not desighned to expell huge amounts of cholestorol - again, unlike a carnivour's. We simply do not possess the right adaptations for eating large amounts of meat like a wolf or lion can.

Personally, I eat meat, but only raw. I grew up in the north about a hundred miles from Montreal. I will eat raw elk, moose and deer. Why? Well because, I find it's much better for you (none of that irradiated, anti-biotic, steroid infested commercial crap - which I consider "tainted" garbage!) and I also find it tastes so much better. I enjoy the feeling as it slides down my cavernous throat.

Beef tartare is very nice as is carpaccio of beef - I'm a big sushi fan too. But you offer no justification of vegetarianism - I advocate a balanced diet and enjoy a large amount of fruit and vegetables in my diet - I go for vegetarian dishes. But humans need to eat meat too.

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Because we have (the illusion of) free will.

And that makes it right?

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Because we have (the illusion of) free will.

And that makes it right?

It could.

Some animals, when the male takes over a group of females, will kill all the young so he can mate sooner. This is natural.
Would using our free will to go against that not be right?

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

There's a lot of different sorts of vegetables you know?

>>Vegetarianism often results in disease caused by vitamin B defieiency, particularly for vegans.

Often? Hardly. B12 is in rainwater and all over unwashed veggies. The problem is pollution & pesticides. So you have to eat some tempeh, or miso, or other fermented products -- I prefer beer -- for certain B vitamins, or take a multivitamin which is a good idea whatever your diet.

>>1. Your teeth - the ones called "canines" are designed for tearing and cutting meat.

Yeah, tell that to a gorilla. Massive canines, vegetarian (well, they might eat some termites). Look at all the rest of your teeth, and the extraordinary length of your small intestines, if you need biological support for eschewing meat.

>>2. The most famous vegetarian I know of his Adolf Hitler - so it seems to not have the calming and soothing effects some claim.

Canard. Hitler tried vegetarianism for a while but his personal chef related that he loved sausage and had it every day. In any event, I've never heard anyone seriously claim that your diet is going to change your personality. There are kind meat-eaters and evil vegetarians, but it is not their diets which them so. More likely the opposite. I don't want to kill animals, and thus became a vegetarian, not the other way around.

>> ANIMALS ON FARMS ARE BRED TO BE EATEN.
This is life. It's eat or be eaten. You are still killing plants when you eat them, so maybe you shouldn't eat them either. But humans cannot survive on water alone. Even then you are ending the lives of the miniscule creatures in the water.
If you believe vegitables are better for your health, go for it. But this mumbo jumbo about killing animals is crap.

Yes I'm killing plants. Plants don't feel pain. Animals do. I consider this a pretty good difference to base differing treatment on. There might be people who really claim it is the killing, not the associated pain of raising and slaughtering animals, that they want to avoid, but most peole understand that the infliction of pain is a alrge part of what makes the killig wrong. The usual rejoinder is "how do you know plants don't feel pain?" The obvious answer is that they have no nervous system and no ability to react to pain. Nature doesn't give you information you can't use.

It is surprising that environmental issues are not riased in this discussion too. Perhaps equal to the ethics of inflicting pain, my motive for vegetariansim is that I understand the environmental impact of the meat industry on our water, soil, and air.

Ultimately, the truth is that human can live on vegan diets or omnivorous diets or anything in between. In extreme circumstances we can live mostly on animal flesh. For me, the question is, do I need to eat animals? and the answer is no. Everyone should do what they want but let's not pretend it takes any special discipline or moral superiority to adopt a particular diet.

Cheers,
Mike

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Because we have (the illusion of) free will.

And that makes it right?

It could.

Some animals, when the male takes over a group of females, will kill all the young so he can mate sooner. This is natural.
Would using our free will to go against that not be right?

Lions often do this. The males will kill the unweened cubs (once they take over a pride) causing the females to go into heat almost immediatly. This is done because the males time in a pride is rather limited.

As a meat eater I do think it takes a bit more discipline to be a vegan and if you are one (and I was wearing one) I doff my hat to you.

But to be a veggi on moral grounds but not a vegan does not ring true for me.

One thing I can't understand though. If it is ok to kill and animal for it's meat (and we have established that we can survive without it) why is it so wrong to kill and animal for it's fur?

For the above question, take it a read that both animals are farmed in a humane way and are killed with as little pain as possible. Why is meat ok and fur good?

It's either both good or both bad surely?

Is not killing an animal and wasting part of it more against natures way?

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

Because we have (the illusion of) free will.

And that makes it right?

It could.

Some animals, when the male takes over a group of females, will kill all the young so he can mate sooner. This is natural.
Would using our free will to go against that not be right?

Lions often do this. The males will kill the unweened cubs (once they take over a pride) causing the females to go into heat almost immediatly. This is done because the males time in a pride is rather limited.

Quite the jerk isn't he?

its because the animals are kept in cages, forced to breed, and then killed. I would be happy to eat meat if the animals were left in the wild and u had to hunt and kill your own

It is quite easy to buy meat (although you pay more for it) from humane/organic/free range producers. I myself try to do this as often as possible - The meat tastes better.

yes, but they are still not free tho

its because the animals are kept in cages, forced to breed, and then killed. I would be happy to eat meat if the animals were left in the wild and u had to hunt and kill your own

It is quite easy to buy meat (although you pay more for it) from humane/organic/free range producers. I myself try to do this as often as possible - The meat tastes better.

yes, but they are still not free tho

Well, I cannot judge nature in this manner. . .Nature is nature. The lion does this because he must pass his genes as quickly as possible. Due to, (like I stated earlier) the fact that his time in the pride is limited.

I meant to reply to Hakartopia's last post :oops:

its because the animals are kept in cages, forced to breed, and then killed. I would be happy to eat meat if the animals were left in the wild and u had to hunt and kill your own

It is quite easy to buy meat (although you pay more for it) from humane/organic/free range producers. I myself try to do this as often as possible - The meat tastes better.

yes, but they are still not free tho

Free is a relative term off course. I don't think a chicken has much desire to visit Africa for a few weeks.

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

There's a lot of different sorts of vegetables you know?

I know I've eaten a good many of them but that diet is still very boring -
I wonder what the best meal that guy or indeed a vegetarian has ever had I could tell you mine:

Menu Prestige as Gordon Ramsay's - Best meal I 've ever had about 8 courses in total:

Amusee Bouche
Gazpacho
Foie Gras with smoked goose
Ravioli of langoustine and lobster
Turbot with spinach, smoked haddock and Parmesan sauce
Fillet of Aberdeen Angus steak with a caramelized Pigs trotter
French Cheeses
Basil Crème Brule with wild strawberries
Tarte Tatin with cinnamon ice cream
Coffee and Petit fours

Can a vegetarian meal ever sound as good or as interesting as that.
Life is too short to be eating boring dull food.

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

There's a lot of different sorts of vegetables you know?

I know I've eaten a good many of them but that diet is still very boring -
I wonder what the best meal that guy or indeed a vegetarian has ever had I could tell you mine:

Menu Prestige as Gordon Ramsay's - Best meal I 've ever had about 8 courses in total:

Amusee Bouche
Gazpacho
Foie Gras with smoked goose
Ravioli of langoustine and lobster
Turbot with spinach, smoked haddock and Parmesan sauce
Fillet of Aberdeen Angus steak with a caramelized Pigs trotter
French Cheeses
Basil Crème Brule with wild strawberries
Tarte Tatin with cinnamon ice cream
Coffee and Petit fours

Can a vegetarian meal ever sound as good or as interesting as that.
Life is too short to be eating boring dull food.

And then there's fruit, and pasta too, yum yum.

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

There's a lot of different sorts of vegetables you know?

I know I've eaten a good many of them but that diet is still very boring -
I wonder what the best meal that guy or indeed a vegetarian has ever had I could tell you mine:

Menu Prestige as Gordon Ramsay's - Best meal I 've ever had about 8 courses in total:

Amusee Bouche
Gazpacho
Foie Gras with smoked goose
Ravioli of langoustine and lobster
Turbot with spinach, smoked haddock and Parmesan sauce
Fillet of Aberdeen Angus steak with a caramelized Pigs trotter
French Cheeses
Basil Crème Brule with wild strawberries
Tarte Tatin with cinnamon ice cream
Coffee and Petit fours

Can a vegetarian meal ever sound as good or as interesting as that.
Life is too short to be eating boring dull food.

Well Gordopollis it's a little too. . .how shall I put it? Overdone for my tastes.

Here's one of my typical meals. . .

8 - 12oz of raw moose meat, or elk meat or deer meat.
1 - 2 baked potatoes (skin is also eaten)
1 - 2 cloves of raw crushed garlic (spinkled on meat)
About 300ML of raw unpasterized plain yogurt.
1 apple, or 1 pear, or assorted berries for dessart.

This meal is highly nutricious and good too. Not to mention filling! I prefer the K.I.S.S view to food :lol:

Oh btw, Archosauria is also Sskiss.

Thats fine as there is meat in it
The moose is the most attractive part of that

My meal is better though - much more variety and actually quite heathy too

I myself dont eat meat because the majority of it is injected with hormones, steroids and antibiotics. Also, I have seen the cruel way they are treated. Plus there are negative environmental impacts.

Genetic engineering is taking it's toll on veggies though. It sucks, and I dont even trust the organic stuff anymore. And all those pesticides are also harming teh environment.

Vegetarians have a HUGE amount of dishes that they can eat to keep any meal from being boring. Besides, veggies, fruit, pasta, beans and grains... there are also fake meats which are delicious. Like: duck, chicken, salmon, cod, crab, shrimp, beef, pork, ham, tuna, hot dogs... the list goes on. And there are tons of spices and ways to cook all these in an endless array of dishes that can mock nearly any dish. Except for a good steak. Good luck with that mad cow though you beef eaters. I heard that they recently found out that it has been in the US for at least 8 years. eeeep!

I can still laugh at jokes like this though: If God didn't want us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?

The fake meats are nasty - I tried eating quorn once, it tasted like a poorer relative of a mushroom. You be better off eating decent mushrooms like girolles or morels.

Bet the fake hotdogs have been tampered with.

Again you can get high quality meats - You just got to pay for it just like organic veg.

Even then I still would'nt take meat out of my diet - tastes too good.

As a pescetarian (someone who eats no meat other than fish), I've gotta say, it is all a matter of degree. I certainly don't think anyone ought to be obligated to deprive themselves of meat. Humanity is built for it. Humans eating meat is no more or less evil than big cats or birds or sharks eating meat.

That said, many of us feel that it is preferable not to cause harm to other beings, if it can be avoided. Particularly when those beings live short, miserable, brutish lives first. This is a personal choice and doesn't reflect a judgement on others (well... shouldn't reflect a judgement on others).

At the mild end of the scale you have white meat eaters (no mammals), pescetarians (who won't eat anything warm-blooded), those who won't eat anything with a spine (can't find the term, but they're out there), and lacto-ovo vegetarians (milk and eggs allowed, but no meat). Veganism follows (nothing that comes from an animal), and then that rare and generally anemic breed, the fruititarian (who eats nothing that hasn't actually fallen off a plant).

Well, I think I can speak for everyone but fruititarians when I say that fruititarianism is difficult and nutritionally almost unsustanable. So we should go to the opposite extreme, right? And eat meat. Lots of it.

Well... that isn't the extreme, though, really. That only gets us part way up the chain. You'll eat farmed animals, wild game animals... what about pet animals, like dogs and cats? Is that ok? It is all just meat, after all. How about monkeys? Apes? Getting a little too close to home? What about people? It is all just a matter of how far up the ladder you wanna go. Soilent Green, baby.

What I'm saying is, it is all a continuum. We all draw the line somewhere. Most people draw the line at conventional meats. Some of us draw that line further from ourselves. And a few, for all I know, may draw it closer.

So if you're going to make the argument that "well, how can you be vegetarian but not vegan, morally?" there is your answer. No matter what you eat, you're just choosing the balance of moral/emotional comfort vs. culinary/nutritional benefit that is right for you.

BTW, there is a lot of absolutely delicious Indian food (one example) that includes no meat whatsoever. I think our predisposition to equate vegetarian food with second-rate cuisine comes from our cultural European herder/farmer background, not from any inate trait.

Veganism follows (nothing that comes from an animal), and then that rare and generally anemic breed, the fruititarian (who eats nothing that hasn't actually fallen off a plant).

Even most of us vegans think the fruitarians are crazy...

damn straight.

Anyone know a fruitarian?
Vegans - whats wrong with fish - It's beautiful an very healthy

On the meat front. The rule I try and follow is: Don't eat anything that in it's wild state has no predators, and if possible avoid all predetory animals.

hitler was a vegetarian

Vegans - whats wrong with fish - It's beautiful an very healthy

They have complex nervous systems the structure of which leads us to believe they are capable of feeling pain. Living in the western world I have the choice to eat other things in their place, and thus avoid contributing to their exploitation and suffering.

Don't plants feel pain - They are alive after all...

Don't plants feel pain - They are alive after all...
Not as such. But trees and other plants have been know to react in a measurable way to harmful stimuli. But no not pain as such.
Killing animals need not involve pain, it comes down to cost at the end of the day. :(

Don't plants feel pain - They are alive after all...

Given that our capacity to feel pain seems very closely linked to certain structures in the central nervous system which appear in other animals, and these structures do not appear in plants, or for that matter micro-organisms where it is difficult to determine whether they are plants or animals, we seem to have a lot of evidence to suggest that plants do not feel pain.

Certainly plants react to negative stimuli, but we have no reason for concluding that this can in any way be mapped onto what we call pain.

Gordo... you have tried the wrong fake meats... yeah Quorn was gross when I tried it too, but that doesnt mean all fake meats are. All the stuff I get comes from Asia. I get it from a warehouse that supplies vegetarian restaurants. They aren't very well known but their fake meat is out of this world. Although it's probably not all that good for you with all the processing it takes to create it.

It does allow me to make crab enchiladas that are to die for.

I like meat. Therefore, I eat it, as I need it.

Don't plants feel pain - They are alive after all...

Given that our capacity to feel pain seems very closely linked to certain structures in the central nervous system which appear in other animals, and these structures do not appear in plants, or for that matter micro-organisms where it is difficult to determine whether they are plants or animals, we seem to have a lot of evidence to suggest that plants do not feel pain.

Certainly plants react to negative stimuli, but we have no reason for concluding that this can in any way be mapped onto what we call pain.

But isn't is moral hypocrisy to say that it's unacceptable to kill and eat animals and then go and eat plants - as they are alive and react to negative stimuli?

But isn't is moral hypocrisy to say that it's unacceptable to kill and eat animals and then go and eat plants - as they are alive and react to negative stimuli?

Given that there is no evidence to lead us to believe that they experience pain in any way which can realistically be equated with the human concept of 'pain', no.

But isn't is moral hypocrisy to say that it's unacceptable to kill and eat animals and then go and eat plants - as they are alive and react to negative stimuli?

Given that there is no evidence to lead us to believe that they experience pain in any way which can realistically be equated with the human concept of 'pain', no.

That doesn't mean they don't feel pain, just that their pain is not understandable to us. Still, it may be that many plants and trees are able to feel the vegetable equivalent of terror. Pain, after all, is nothing more than a chemical reaction that makes an animal react to a dangerous situation, either by getting the hell out or howling to scare others of their own kind or call for help.

There are chemical reactions in plants when exposed to dangerous situations. The fact that they can't move, complain or cry doesn't mean that they don't feel this chemical changes. It's just that they are too alien for us to understand, instead of the usual noises they release chemicals into the air, provoking a chain reaction in the neighboring plants.

Sure, it's not pain the way a human understands or defines pain, but we can then limit our definition of pain to not include that of animals, or to give it a lesser value.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think the argument of eating plants to avoid suffering is a valid one. Nothing evil with vegetarianism, of course, but nothing evil with eating animals either.

Which leads me to my original point. Why bother being a vegetarian?

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

There's a lot of different sorts of vegetables you know?

I know I've eaten a good many of them but that diet is still very boring -
I wonder what the best meal that guy or indeed a vegetarian has ever had I could tell you mine:

Menu Prestige as Gordon Ramsay's - Best meal I 've ever had about 8 courses in total:

Amusee Bouche
Gazpacho
Foie Gras with smoked goose
Ravioli of langoustine and lobster
Turbot with spinach, smoked haddock and Parmesan sauce
Fillet of Aberdeen Angus steak with a caramelized Pigs trotter
French Cheeses
Basil Crème Brule with wild strawberries
Tarte Tatin with cinnamon ice cream
Coffee and Petit fours

Can a vegetarian meal ever sound as good or as interesting as that.
Life is too short to be eating boring dull food.

That is possibly one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard in my entire life. Pick up a Vegetarian Times magazine. I have eaten better food from there than I have had at any "fancy 8 course" restauraunt. Also, I have found vegetarian cuisine is much more filling, I know I couldn't eat all the food you listed above in one setting. Vegetarian restauraunts serve very delicious foods and the chefs know how to make interesting food that you will enjoy and keep coming back for. Also, vegetarians have a much better sense of taste, meat destroys taste buds so the only reason you find vegetarian cuisine "dull" is because you can not adequately taste it.
Someone earlier said vegetarians are not as healty. In fact, the opposite is true, vegetarians have a much lower percentage of obesity, heart disease, cancer, high blood pressure, cholesterol, and more.
In response to someone else, yes, we do kill vegetables to eat them, but the point is not that we kill animals to eat them so much as they suffer so we can eat them. Chickens, cows, and pigs are often kept in incredibly cramped areas for months and fed growth hormones so they grow rapidly in a short amount of time. They are also kept in the dark and can hardly breathe due to the ammonia build up from their urination and defecation in the "barn" they are kept in. They also become bored, yes, it has been proven that animals become bored, and mutilate the other animals around them. This leads to tail docking, beak removal, castration, and other horrible acts just so people can eat animals they dont even need to eat. "Free Range" eggs do not necessarily mean the chickens are outside all day, the government says you can label your eggs free range if your chickens are out only the smallest fraction of a day.
Yes, there are farms that are not like this, but they are being put out of business by "Agribusiness". Agribusiness allows a farmer to keep 50,000 cows or more other animals, in a single 150 foot barn with only one caretaker. They have no contact with the outside world or people and can not accurately develop their social order with their herd.
I believe if you asked any vegetarian, they may say they would eat meat if the animals were indeed slaughtered painlessly and lived a happy life. Which brings me to another point, slaughter. Someone said slaughter was painless and quick. NO. Slaughter is a horrible experience for an animal. Oftentimes, cows are crammed into a truck, and shocked so they will go up a ramp. At the top of the ramp is an "executioner" who has basically a sledge hammer and he has to hit them on a certain spot of their head to kill or knock them out. Due to productivity, they often get sloppy to meet their goal and end up smashing in the animals face before they even hit the right spot. Sometimes, the animals are not even knocked out all the way! They are then hooked by the leg on a conveyor belt. A 500 and upwards pound animal hanging by the leg on a metal loop. This often leads to the skin ripping off and the leg breaking. Other methods of slaughter are "stun" methods. They "stun" the animal with a huge electric shock to the temple and many times (which has been proven government investigations) does not even work. They are then hung upside down on the conveyor belt and their throats are slit. Many times they are just very weak from blood loss and they are dipped in a vat of boiling water and boiled alive. This occurs mostly in chickens and pigs. Anyone who can say this is "right" or this is "natural" needs to have a reality check. Anyone who can say animals don't have interests or feelings needs to have a reality check. The animals struggle their entire lives and especially at slaughter to get free. You can not say they are doing this just for fun. They are doing this because they have an interest in doing what is natural for them and grazing and being free.
By the way, I won't go all out on this one, but another ignorant person said fur farms are humane. That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life. http://www.furisdead.com look at the pictures and tell me that is humane.
Good reads or sources for information are Animal Liberation by Peter Singer or veganoutreach.com

Don't see the point of it really. Vegetarians are missing out on a lot of fine cuisine by not eating meat. They also are damn hard to entertain at a dinner party.

Plus humans are omnivorous - Why go against nature?

My brother's reason is that he believes it is savage to slaughter animals just so that we can eat them. I agree, but it's tasty, and I don't have high moral standards.

The most famous vegetarian I know of his Adolf Hitler - so it seems to not have the calming and soothing effects some claim.

Well, apparently he also never smoked, drank or went to jail. Maybe that's why he was so erratic. Stupid Austrian.

Fish is the healthiest meat. And the others can cause disease and whatever.

I eat fish and vegetables, and certain starches and carbs.

Sounds very boring

There's a lot of different sorts of vegetables you know?

I know I've eaten a good many of them but that diet is still very boring -
I wonder what the best meal that guy or indeed a vegetarian has ever had I could tell you mine:

Menu Prestige as Gordon Ramsay's - Best meal I 've ever had about 8 courses in total:

Amusee Bouche
Gazpacho
Foie Gras with smoked goose
Ravioli of langoustine and lobster
Turbot with spinach, smoked haddock and Parmesan sauce
Fillet of Aberdeen Angus steak with a caramelized Pigs trotter
French Cheeses
Basil Crème Brule with wild strawberries
Tarte Tatin with cinnamon ice cream
Coffee and Petit fours

Can a vegetarian meal ever sound as good or as interesting as that.
Life is too short to be eating boring dull food.

That is possibly one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard in my entire life. Pick up a Vegetarian Times magazine. I have eaten better food from there than I have had at any "fancy 8 course" restauraunt. Also, I have found vegetarian cuisine is much more filling, I know I couldn't eat all the food you listed above in one setting. Vegetarian restauraunts serve very delicious foods and the chefs know how to make interesting food that you will enjoy and keep coming back for. Also, vegetarians have a much better sense of taste, meat destroys taste buds so the only reason you find vegetarian cuisine "dull" is because you can not adequately taste it.
Someone earlier said vegetarians are not as healty. In fact, the opposite is true, vegetarians have a much lower percentage of obesity, heart disease, cancer, high blood pressure, cholesterol, and more.
In response to someone else, yes, we do kill vegetables to eat them, but the point is not that we kill animals to eat them so much as they suffer so we can eat them. Chickens, cows, and pigs are often kept in incredibly cramped areas for months and fed growth hormones so they grow rapidly in a short amount of time. They are also kept in the dark and can hardly breathe due to the ammonia build up from their urination and defecation in the "barn" they are kept in. They also become bored, yes, it has been proven that animals become bored, and mutilate the other animals around them. This leads to tail docking, beak removal, castration, and other horrible acts just so people can eat animals they dont even need to eat. "Free Range" eggs do not necessarily mean the chickens are outside all day, the government says you can label your eggs free range if your chickens are out only the smallest fraction of a day.
Yes, there are farms that are not like this, but they are being put out of business by "Agribusiness". Agribusiness allows a farmer to keep 50,000 cows or more other animals, in a single 150 foot barn with only one caretaker. They have no contact with the outside world or people and can not accurately develop their social order with their herd.
I believe if you asked any vegetarian, they may say they would eat meat if the animals were indeed slaughtered painlessly and lived a happy life. Which brings me to another point, slaughter. Someone said slaughter was painless and quick. NO. Slaughter is a horrible experience for an animal. Oftentimes, cows are crammed into a truck, and shocked so they will go up a ramp. At the top of the ramp is an "executioner" who has basically a sledge hammer and he has to hit them on a certain spot of their head to kill or knock them out. Due to productivity, they often get sloppy to meet their goal and end up smashing in the animals face before they even hit the right spot. Sometimes, the animals are not even knocked out all the way! They are then hooked by the leg on a conveyor belt. A 500 and upwards pound animal hanging by the leg on a metal loop. This often leads to the skin ripping off and the leg breaking. Other methods of slaughter are "stun" methods. They "stun" the animal with a huge electric shock to the temple and many times (which has been proven government investigations) does not even work. They are then hung upside down on the conveyor belt and their throats are slit. Many times they are just very weak from blood loss and they are dipped in a vat of boiling water and boiled alive. This occurs mostly in chickens and pigs. Anyone who can say this is "right" or this is "natural" needs to have a reality check. Anyone who can say animals don't have interests or feelings needs to have a reality check. The animals struggle their entire lives and especially at slaughter to get free. You can not say they are doing this just for fun. They are doing this because they have an interest in doing what is natural for them and grazing and being free.
By the way, I won't go all out on this one, but another ignorant person said fur farms are humane. That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life. http://www.furisdead.com look at the pictures and tell me that is humane.
Good reads or sources for information are Animal Liberation by Peter Singer or veganoutreach.com

Thats a long one (went off on one didn't we?). Granted excessive cruelty is wrong but we are omnivores and we eat meat and we need to kill to do it. Get over it. Your points regarding what is truly free range or not are valid ones. Also you may have noticed that this a thread about food not animal fur.. that said I sympathise your views regarding fur farms. Killing something to eat it is different from killing something for it's fur.

You say that vegetarian food is good, better in fact than the meal that I had at Gordon Ramsay - Give me some examples of good vegetarian food that you have had or any recepies - Thats open all veggies out there...
:lol:

Beans on toast is always an old favourite.

Here are some delicious vegetarian meals I regularly make:

Lasagne

Crab Enchiladas

Stuffed Bell Peppers

Stuffed mushrooms

Citrus Spare Rib Stir fry

Kung Pao CHicken Stir Fry

Ginger Chicken Stir fry

Roast duck

baked curry chicken

Spaghetti and meatballs

Cod fillets

shrimp cocktails

grilled ham and cheese sammiches

black pepper steak soup

....


and on and on and on... many of the fakes meats are so good you are glad they arent the real thing. And trust me I love the taste of meat. Plus the crab and shrimp you cant even tell if it is real or not, its so good. The ham is the same way.

There are some die hard meat eaters that LOVE the fake meats I have shared with them.

Granted excessive cruelty is wrong but we are omnivores and we eat meat and we need to kill to do it.

Yes, if we need to eat meet, then we need to kill it.

However, we (99% of the Western World) don't need to eat meat.

Killing something to eat it is different from killing something for it's fur.

Why?

Granted excessive cruelty is wrong but we are omnivores and we eat meat and we need to kill to do it.

Yes, if we need to eat meet, then we need to kill it.

However, we (99% of the Western World) don't need to eat meat.

Killing something to eat it is different from killing something for it's fur.

Why?

Because eating is neccessary and being festooned in the carcasses of 20 or so dead small mammals is not. Fur is wasteful, opulent, and inhumane. Granted bovine treatment may not be much better, but at least it supplies a need that everyone has, not just some rich persons desire to look rich. Also there is the issue of scale, hwo long would it tkae one person to eat a whole cow? probobly a long time, but a single fur coat consists of a bunch of skins, wiht the rest of the animal being thrown away. We use most parts of the cow, and the rest we use as cow feed...

sorry double post

saying that hitler was a vegetarian, then implying that vegetarians are evil or whatever must be the most unscientific syllogism I have ever heard in my life...

BDP, why do you feel that we NEED to eat meat? Just because it tastes good?

BDP, why do you feel that we NEED to eat meat? Just because it tastes good?

I never said that. I just dont think its wrong. I was responding to whoever brought up fur farms. You are right we dont NEED to eat meat, but I like it,
and I dont believe that most animals are conscious (Read Daniel Dennett) Therefor, anthromorphizing our experience of pain onto an animal which is not conscious is silly. I draw the line at language, Dennett says that non-signing deaf people (people like this are SEVERLY handicapped) cant be called conscious either, though they certainly have the potential to be. Call me what you will, i honestly believe in human cognitive superiority.

Killing something to eat it is different from killing something for it's fur.

Why?

Because eating is neccessary and being festooned in the carcasses of 20 or so dead small mammals is not.

Readily available alternatives to both are easily accesible to most of the western population. Just as much as we need to eat, we need to shelter ourselves from adverse weather conditions.

Eating is necessary, but eating meat is not.

I still fail to see the difference.

You are right we dont NEED to eat meat, but I like it, and I dont believe that most animals are conscious (Read Daniel Dennett) Therefor, anthromorphizing our experience of pain onto an animal which is not conscious is silly.

I'm not going to argue with your position re: consciousness, but you claimed earlier that wearing fur is 'inhumane'. A contradiction, no? - unless it just so happens that fur bearing animals are outside of your set of "most animals" whicha ren't conscious.

If they aren't conscious, where is the inhumanity?

Don't plants feel pain - They are alive after all...

Apparently, the bloke that invented the lie detector test got bored one day so attached the polygraph to a rubber plant in his office. He then proceeded to drop live and dead prawns into boiling water. For each prawn dropped, a stress response from the plant was recorded. This suggests that even if a plant cannot feel physical pain, it can experience empathetic pain (even if it can't distinguish between dead and alive)...... e.g. the plants will be equally hurt from you eating them or animals.... if you eat the animals they will experience guilt.

Personally, I think it's bollocks but there you go. I learned it in psychology.