NationStates Jolt Archive

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Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

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Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
To the people of Iraq,

I'm sorry we didn't get there sooner. :cry:

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
To the people of Iraq,

I'm sorry we didn't get there sooner. :cry:Amen. We should have finished it in '91.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
To the people of Iraq,

I'm sorry we didn't get there sooner. :cry:
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One inhumanity deserves another????

I forsee someone posting the guy who's head got chopped off pics in a while.

Anyway, the Abu Ghraib prison, good that their cleaning up the mess. Shame on the idiots who torture the prisoners, they should be put into jail.

One inhumanity deserves another????

Perhaps there is a difference between an isolated incident in a single prison involving totally untrained people pressed into a service they never signed up for and a regime dedicated to the brutalization of its populace through the use of kidnapping, torture, murder, rape camps, military assaults on unarmed civillians, etc.

Perhaps one might step back and realise that the inhumanity of the prison is already being punished, and steps are being taken to prevent it from happening again.

But then, it's easier to blindly criticize, isn't it?

One inhumanity deserves another????

Perhaps there is a difference between an isolated incident in a single prison involving totally untrained people pressed into a service they never signed up for and a regime dedicated to the brutalization of its populace through the use of kidnapping, torture, murder, rape camps, military assaults on unarmed civillians, etc.

Perhaps one might step back and realise that the inhumanity of the prison is already being punished, and steps are being taken to prevent it from happening again.

But then, it's easier to blindly criticize, isn't it?Nice response. It's logical, which is something I don't often see here.

If you can even begin to compare that Lynndie England Abu Ghraib photo with the ones that Raem posted above then you are a disgusting person who makes a mockery of the victims of the Baath regime and the lives of all the non-victims the invasion saved. I hope you realize this one day and make amends, for the sake of your soul.

The moral high ground in Iraq disappeared awhile ago, not just with abuse of prisoners, but with actual assassinations.

One inhumanity deserves another????

Perhaps there is a difference between an isolated incident in a single prison involving totally untrained people pressed into a service they never signed up for and a regime dedicated to the brutalization of its populace through the use of kidnapping, torture, murder, rape camps, military assaults on unarmed civillians, etc.

Perhaps one might step back and realise that the inhumanity of the prison is already being punished, and steps are being taken to prevent it from happening again.

But then, it's easier to blindly criticize, isn't it?
Isolated? Single person? Read the news and you might find that is not the case.

Here come the conspiracy theories.

Going to sleep now.

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LOOK AT ME... I AM AMF... I AM SO GODDAMN LARGE.... I CAN DO NO WRONG.

The moral high ground in Iraq disappeared awhile ago, not just with abuse of prisoners, but with actual assassinations.

Well, then, I suppose we should let Saddam Hussein go. Give him a pat on the head and a little candy, too, maybe, since he didn't really do anything wrong. Not like America.

Isolated? Single person? Read the news and you might find that is not the case.

It was isolated. Prison, not person (I specifically said "people" when referring to the guards).

It was isolated because it was not an organized effort on a wide scale to abuse the prisoners. It was an aberration, an exception to the rule. This is what makes it isolated. Isolated does not mean singular.

Here's the question: is it spmeone's job to remove tyrants from power, and if so, should we have ulterior motives when doing such?


As for Iraq being a part of the "war on terror," I'm going to tell you right now that the prison torcure scandals are going to do a LOT more then just make us look bad. Our popularity in the arab world just got shot to hell.

If you can even begin to compare that Lynndie England Abu Ghraib photo with the ones that Raem posted above then you are a disgusting person who makes a mockery of the victims of the Baath regime and the lives of all the non-victims the invasion saved. I hope you realize this one day and make amends, for the sake of your soul.
My soul is in good hands. I am sure God does not condone what Saddam did to his people, and I am just as sure that HE does not condone what Americans did to Iraqis. Same brush, different strokes?

The moral high ground in Iraq disappeared awhile ago, not just with abuse of prisoners, but with actual assassinations.

Well, then, I suppose we should let Saddam Hussein go. Give him a pat on the head and a little candy, too, maybe, since he didn't really do anything wrong. Not like America.
Well Saddam did what to the American people?

My soul is in good hands. I am sure God does not condone what Saddam did to his people, and I am just as sure that HE does not condone what Americans did to Iraqis. Same brush, different strokes?

No one has attempted to justify the abuse of prisoners.

Edit, for the conservation of electronic trees:


Well Saddam did what to the American people?
So, let's say you see someone getting mugged. By your own logic, you should keep walking and hope the person lives to call the cops. After all, it's none of your business. You and your family aren't being hurt.

As for Iraq being a part of the "war on terror," I'm going to tell you right now that the prison torcure scandals are going to do a LOT more then just make us look bad. Our popularity in the arab world just got shot to hell.
What are they going to do, fly airplanes into buildings? Oops, it's been done.

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/wtcsmall.jpg

Like we should give a damn about our popularity in the arab (male) world.

My soul is in good hands. I am sure God does not condone what Saddam did to his people, and I am just as sure that HE does not condone what Americans did to Iraqis. Same brush, different strokes?

No one has attempted to justify the abuse of prisoners.

Edit, for the conservation of electronic trees:

[quote=Raem]
Well Saddam did what to the American people?
So, let's say you see someone getting mugged. By your own logic, you should keep walking and hope the person lives to call the cops. After all, it's none of your business. You and your family aren't being hurt.
How about the death of about 10,000 Iraqis with "Shock and Awe". Even that name irritates me.

Actually, as a world power, we should.

Saying "I don't care if they hate us!" kinda defeats the whole purpose of a "war on terror"

Speaking of which, how the hell do you have a war on terrorism anyways? It's not a thing. THere isn't someone named "Joe Terrorism" that you have to kill. It's impossible to completely irradicate an idiology.

And then pissing off more people only makes it worst.



And lastly, your comment, Stirner, was completely without tact. Please post more intellegently

As for Iraq being a part of the "war on terror," I'm going to tell you right now that the prison torcure scandals are going to do a LOT more then just make us look bad. Our popularity in the arab world just got shot to hell.
What are they going to do, fly airplanes into buildings? Oops, it's been done.

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/wtcsmall.jpg

Like we should give a damn about our popularity in the arab (male) world.
Nice try Stirner but that was NOT Iraq and you know it.

Urm, he was driving a point more against the male arab world then against Iraq, actually ^_^;;;

My soul is in good hands. I am sure God does not condone what Saddam did to his people, and I am just as sure that HE does not condone what Americans did to Iraqis. Same brush, different strokes?
Right. Bush = Saddam. US Marine Corps = Republican Guard.

Sorry, WRONG.

Well Saddam did what to the American people?
What did Hitler do to the American people? Or the Canadian people for that matter?

Like we should give a damn about our popularity in the arab (male) world.
Say goodbye to your credibility. Who needs to pray for whose soul?

How about the death of about 10,000 Iraqis with "Shock and Awe". Even that name irritates me.

The deaths of innocents and civillians cannot be avoided in a war. I am sorry that innocent Iraqis have died. On the other hand, how many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of Iraqis may now begin to build a sovereign nation without fear of being kidnapped in the night because one of their neighbors had a grudge?

Speaking of which, how the hell do you have a war on terrorism anyways? It's not a thing. THere isn't someone named "Joe Terrorism" that you have to kill. It's impossible to completely irradicate an idiology.
The same way you declare a war on piracy.

Or we could stop dancing around the issue and call this war what it really is: the War against Islamic fundamentalism.

My soul is in good hands. I am sure God does not condone what Saddam did to his people, and I am just as sure that HE does not condone what Americans did to Iraqis. Same brush, different strokes?
Right. Bush = Saddam. US Marine Corps = Republican Guard.

Sorry, WRONG.

Well Saddam did what to the American people?
What did Hitler do to the American people? Or the Canadian people for that matter?
You got your wars mixed up????

Sadam wasn't Islamic

Your logic astounds me

Sadam wasn't Islamic

Your logic astounds me

Shh, quit complicating the matter. :wink:

Sadam wasn't Islamic

Your logic astounds me
YOU brought up the War on Terrorism in a thread about Iraq, not me.

Because Iraq was a part of the "war on terror"

Once again, I am astonished by your logic

Well Saddam did what to the American people?
What did Hitler do to the American people? Or the Canadian people for that matter?
You got your wars mixed up????
It's called a comparison. I was COMPARING Hitler's lack of direct aggression against Canada and America TO Saddam's lack of direct aggression to America.

Hitler attacked America's allies

Perhaps there is a difference between an isolated incident in a single prison involving totally untrained people pressed into a service they never signed up for and a regime dedicated to the brutalization of its populace through the use of kidnapping, torture, murder, rape camps, military assaults on unarmed civillians, etc.

Perhaps one might step back and realise that the inhumanity of the prison is already being punished, and steps are being taken to prevent it from happening again.

But then, it's easier to blindly criticize, isn't it?Nice response. It's logical, which is something I don't often see here.

A Nice response, but wholly incorrect. Those people "pressed into service they never signed up for" were a combination of MP's and hired civilian contractors specifically requested from the Corrections facilities of the US...how is that untrained? These people were supposed to be experts, did you ever read the backgrounds of those serving in that prison? They're far from untrained.

Its not nice to blindly criticize, but serving justice and creating an atmosphere where such acts will not be tolerated or (more importantly) never commited again by US forces DOES serve a useful purpose. Those who bring up the prison abuse scandal are doing their part as conciencious citizens; making sure that the public of both the US and the world understand that sexual abuse IS a form of torture, and it will not stand.

More to the point, many suspected that there was something beyond an "isolated incident" there. Many suspect some group of upper-level officials from SOME branch of the government thought such humilation would be 'useful' in extracting information from prisoners. If such a policy existed, it must be rooted out and those responsible fired for the good of the US. To hell with the US's reputation abroad, such policies are harmful, not benificial to the US. Those who carry them out should be prevented from taking part in public office.

To the people of Iraq,

I'm sorry we didn't get there sooner. :cry:

0.o That is definately a Raised eyebrow worthy comment.

One inhumanity deserves another????

Perhaps there is a difference between an isolated incident

How can any one with an IQ over 40 believe this was an "isolated" incident? Rummy even said the Geneva Conventions may not apply.. The president of the United States of America re-classified POW's as "enemy combatants" and took them to another country so that American law and the Geneva Conventions would not apply. Get real. Get your head out of the sand.

How can any one with an IQ over 40 believe this was an "isolated" incident? Rummy even said the Geneva Conventions may not apply.. The president of the United States of America re-classified POW's as "enemy combatants" and took them to another country so that American law and the Geneva Conventions would not apply. Get real. Get your head out of the sand.

And how many prisoners of Iraq have wound up in Gitmo? If I recall correctly, Gitmo was being used to house those with direct connections to terrorist organizations. No one doubts the existence of al-Qaeda, or the Taliban right?

By the way, I really like how you demean those who do not agree with you. Makes for a good moderator example of proper behavior.

Oh, shut yer hole. When you stop degrading others, then you can criticize.

How can any one with an IQ over 40 believe this was an "isolated" incident? Rummy even said the Geneva Conventions may not apply.. The president of the United States of America re-classified POW's as "enemy combatants" and took them to another country so that American law and the Geneva Conventions would not apply. Get real. Get your head out of the sand.

And how many prisoners of Iraq have wound up in Gitmo?

This is relevant how?

This is relevant how?

It's as relevant as your argument.

Oh, shut yer hole. When you stop degrading others, then you can criticize.

I like this. I'm told to shut up because I pointed out when someone else degraded me? Come back when you've left your hipocrisy behind.

No, you made a pointed and insulting comment about someone else because they did the same.

And as for your argument about it being relevant...well, your logic astounds me. You see, what Stephistan was TRYING to do was show you that it wasn't an isolated event. And, just for the record, it was indeed quite relevant. Only, you'd have to listen and pay attention to understand that.

No, you made a pointed and insulting comment about someone else because they did the same.

And as for your argument about it being relevant...well, your logic astounds me. You see, what Stephistan was TRYING to do was show you that it wasn't an isolated event. And, just for the record, it was indeed quite relevant. Only, you'd have to listen and pay attention to understand that.

I made a pointed observation that the mods should be above such petty namecalling and mudslinging. Am I wrong?

Perhaps you should listen and pay attention. Did I once say that her argument wasn't relevant? No. I said it was "as relevant" as hers. She questioned the relevancy of my argument on the same grounds she used to counter my original argument. I pointed this out. Try to read between the lines next time, instead of simply jumping up and down and getting all pissed off.

1) the Mods are human. Insert gasp of shock and surprise here. They arn't your "moral gods," "idols," or even people we should look up to. They're just humans who happen to have power :p

2) jumping up and down and getting pissed off? I'm not pissed off :lol:. I rarely ever get mad. The worst I've ever been on this forum is frustrated and, several times, highly amused.

3) Stephistan backed up her argument. You didn't. She showed how it was relevant, and I'm still waiting for you to do the same

*coughs* is it just me, or does this untasteful and offensive flame war need to be locked?

NO! Im not finished demeaning stirner yet.

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To Raem (I think it was you) who compared not invading Iraq with walking past a mugging, may I be the first to invite you into North Korea, China, Syria, Iran, and quite a few African countries to also stop some mugging?
Regarding the outrageous attrocities carried out by Americans on Iraqi prisoners. People should spend as much time reading the news as posting here. First, all the evidence is showing that the abuse is going on elsewhere, or was, let's hope it's stopped. As for 'untrained' individuals carrying out acts of sadism. The photos, clearly show CIA personel.

Because military CID couldn't get the intelligence it wanted from Iraqi prisoners (now, they may have been 'untrained'), the General in charge of Guantanamo Bay was sent out to take over. That tells you several things. The three most important things it tells anyone with a thinking brain is:
1) The abuse and torture began after he arrived..........officially appointed.
2) Just how has Gunatanamo Bay been run?
3) Where would we end if we followed the chain of command that got him sent to Iraq?

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

To Raem (I think it was you) who compared not invading Iraq with walking past a mugging, may I be the first to invite you into North Korea, China, Syria, Iran, and quite a few African countries to also stop some mugging?
Regarding the outrageous attrocities carried out by Americans on Iraqi prisoners. People should spend as much time reading the news as posting here. First, all the evidence is showing that the abuse is going on elsewhere, or was, let's hope it's stopped. As for 'untrained' individuals carrying out acts of sadism. The photos, clearly show CIA personel.

Because military CID couldn't get the intelligence it wanted from Iraqi prisoners (now, they may have been 'untrained'), the General in charge of Guantanamo Bay was sent out to take over. That tells you several things. The three most important things it tells anyone with a thinking brain is:
1) The abuse and torture began after he arrived..........officially appointed.
2) Just how has Gunatanamo Bay been run?
3) Where would we end if we followed the chain of command that got him sent to Iraq?

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

To Raem (I think it was you) who compared not invading Iraq with walking past a mugging, may I be the first to invite you into North Korea, China, Syria, Iran, and quite a few African countries to also stop some mugging?
Regarding the outrageous attrocities carried out by Americans on Iraqi prisoners. People should spend as much time reading the news as posting here. First, all the evidence is showing that the abuse is going on elsewhere, or was, let's hope it's stopped. As for 'untrained' individuals carrying out acts of sadism. The photos, clearly show CIA personel.

Because military CID couldn't get the intelligence it wanted from Iraqi prisoners (now, they may have been 'untrained'), the General in charge of Guantanamo Bay was sent out to take over. That tells you several things. The three most important things it tells anyone with a thinking brain is:
1) The abuse and torture began after he arrived..........officially appointed.
2) Just how has Gunatanamo Bay been run?
3) Where would we end if we followed the chain of command that got him sent to Iraq?

Do the ends always justify the means?

From today's news:

In taking questions from reporters, Bush was asked about a U.S. Justice Department memo that said the U.S. could use torture to interrogate terrorist suspects.

He said he couldn't recall if he say it, adding, "what I authorized was to stay within U.S. law."

Doesn't US Law allow assassination?

Also of some interest:

Bush was asked by an Arab journalist if he would be returning the pistol of Saddam Hussein back to Iraq as a goodwill gesture.

A group of Delta Force commandos presented Bush with it after they captured the former Iraqi dictator in December.

Bush said the pistol was now the property of the U.S. government.

DP

Do the ends always justify the means?

From today's news:

In taking questions from reporters, Bush was asked about a U.S. Justice Department memo that said the U.S. could use torture to interrogate terrorist suspects.

He said he couldn't recall if he say it, adding, "what I authorized was to stay within U.S. law."

Doesn't US Law allow assassination?

Also of some interest:

Bush was asked by an Arab journalist if he would be returning the pistol of Saddam Hussein back to Iraq as a goodwill gesture.

A group of Delta Force commandos presented Bush with it after they captured the former Iraqi dictator in December.

Bush said the pistol was now the property of the U.S. government.
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

Although I agree with your general thrust Canuck, I should point out that US and all democratic nations do not sanction assasination. What we do is hire third parties and give ourselves 'deniability'. Which to me, is murder and hypocracy.

Do the ends always justify the means?

From today's news:

In taking questions from reporters, Bush was asked about a U.S. Justice Department memo that said the U.S. could use torture to interrogate terrorist suspects.

He said he couldn't recall if he say it, adding, "what I authorized was to stay within U.S. law."

Doesn't US Law allow assassination?

Also of some interest:

Bush was asked by an Arab journalist if he would be returning the pistol of Saddam Hussein back to Iraq as a goodwill gesture.

A group of Delta Force commandos presented Bush with it after they captured the former Iraqi dictator in December.

Bush said the pistol was now the property of the U.S. government.
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

Although I agree with your general thrust Canuck, I should point out that US and all democratic nations do not sanction assasination. What we do is hire third parties and give ourselves 'deniability'. Which to me, is murder and hypocracy.
Well the present administration seems to have that in mass quantities these days......"deniability", that is.