NationStates Jolt Archive

I'd like to address this namely to Catholics, but if your are not a Catholic and have something usefull to add I'd love to hear that to.

So, with even the Jesuit Order leading a push for reform on the issue of Clergy Celibacy should we keep the principal. I personally blame it for a number of problems now plaguing our Church and the loss of over 100,000 good Clergymen.

The Clergy should be able to marry, considering htat the only reason that celibacy was introduced was because it mean tthat the Church could get more money (many Clergy were sons of wealthy families). Also the effects of repressing such a strong drive can be disturbing too.

Maybe.....

I'm not really making a statment on this issue, but when it is phrased that it is "unnatural" it makes me think, well what are you going to do, force them? :shock: lol

If they do stay celibate they will end up molesting small boys....

I dont understand the idea that abstinence makes you closer to god.
It just gives you something else to fight with inside ypur own head when you should be looking at and whats more UNDERSTANDING the issues your "flock" are haveing to deal with.
How can you guide them if you don't understand what they have to deal with.
I'm not a catholic and would like to get my head round the importance of abstinence.

I dont understand the idea that abstinence makes you closer to god.


It doesn't, it is a temporal policy for making money dressed up as being a spiritual one to bring one closer to God.

I dont understand the idea that abstinence makes you closer to god.


It doesn't, it is a temporal policy for making money dressed up as being a spiritual one to bring one closer to God.

Without money religions don't function. The church of England (I am nominally a member) is a financially strapped case in point. However I would like to see someone describe why celibacy should be presented as a step towards betterment.

as you can tell by my name I am chatholic and like history. If you look at the history of our church celabicy hasn't really been held in check. Even though priest's and other clergymen weren't supposed to have sex doesn't mean thet didn't. The church used to be political tool used by wealthy nobles who wanted more money and power. Many of them did't even care about the religious part of curch it was just a means to an end. There were popes who had children and were even kings of other countrys (spain). That has changed since the holy roman empire lost all power of state. I don't really understand why they ever had celibicy in the first place as far as religous reasons go, supposedly they are married to God and have no room for that kind of love but celebicy isn't practiced by rabbis so who came up with idea? I don't know.

Honestly, I think that being married has to be one of the greatest teaching tools in humility and patience. Also if going by the Christian, especially Catholic view of marraige, it should bring you closer to God as God's children were comanded to replenish the earth. So I find it odd that those who lead the church should remain celebate. Also, I have been told that this is mostly an American issue at this point as a large majority of Preists in Europe are alowed to marry by their sects of Catholicism. On the other hand, something that does make sence is that a Priest should allready be married or remain celebate while they are actively preaching, because a Priest really shouldn't be dating within their perish. That seems like that could present problems.

Obviously, the Roman Catholic clergy are not allowed to be married; but, the Byzantine Catholic clergy are allowed to marry and have children.

If they were allowed to forgo celibacy they might stop fiddling with small boys. The church keeps moving pervy clergymen to other diosces but the cycle carries on there too and they have paid out lots of mone y in compensation to families of abused kids.

as you can tell by my name I am chatholic and like history. If you look at the history of our church celabicy hasn't really been held in check. Even though priest's and other clergymen weren't supposed to have sex doesn't mean thet didn't. The church used to be political tool used by wealthy nobles who wanted more money and power. Many of them did't even care about the religious part of curch it was just a means to an end. There were popes who had children and were even kings of other countrys (spain). That has changed since the holy roman empire lost all power of state. I don't really understand why they ever had celibicy in the first place as far as religous reasons go, supposedly they are married to God and have no room for that kind of love but celebicy isn't practiced by rabbis so who came up with idea? I don't know.

OK I understand that certain Popes used religion as a route to power and had a poor view of celibacy therefore celibacy and other things fell by the wayside but are you saying the whole celibacy thing is a red herring? If so why do we see such a divide within Catholicism

If they were allowed to forgo celibacy they might stop fiddling with small boys. The church keeps moving pervy clergymen to other diosces but the cycle carries on there too and they have paid out lots of mone y in compensation to families of abused kids.


I do not beleive Catholic preists are more prone to paedophillia than anyone else. This is a product of media imbalance.

OK I understand that certain Popes used religion as a route to power and had a poor view of celibacy therefore celibacy and other things fell by the wayside but are you saying the whole celibacy thing is a red herring? If so why do we see such a divide within Catholicism[/quote]

no I'm just pointing out what has happened in history I would say no such thing :)

If they don't stay celibate they will end up molesting small boys....Actually, one could argue that its BECAUSE of the mandatory Celibacy that the child molestation occured. The libido is to strong of a force to supress for long, and their vows to god won't allow them to have sex, so they settle for molesting children.

There is no sexual perversion more unnatural than celibacy.

You lied to us and hundreds died looking for you. ;)

To Buzzadonia: I know that, but the amount of money that they had anyway could have sufficed, but the idea of celibacy was to make a killing.

Celibacy, as a tool to get closer to God, is very closely related to ascetism. That is, removing yourself from all earthly pleasures will make you more receptive to God (or drive you crazy, it is all a matter of interpretation ;) ). Which is not unique to Christianity/Catholicism or Europe. The Cathars in the Languedoc saw sex as evil. And one of the requirements to take the only Cathar sacrement (I forget what it is called but it makes you a perfecti) was to abstain from sex, also you could not eat meat, since animals reproduced through sex, but plants and fish were OK (due to the fact that they didn't know how fish reproduced). iirc this ascetic doctorine was also prevalent in India too. Siddartha (sp?) on his journey of enlightenment met ascetics who had sworn off all earthly pleasures including sex.

There was another benefit of celibacy. In the Chinese Imperial courts (amoung others) there were Eunuchs (forced celibacy), the idea being that if a man could not reproduce than he would work for his master more effectively as he would not have any dynastic ambitions. I don't know if this was part of the reason for clerical celibacy in Catholicism though. Although I wouldn't doubt it.

As for how celibachy brings you closer to God. For many of the dualist sects, it was because we were made by an evil God and turning our back on everything that he wants to ensnare us with is a way to get closer to the good God. For non-dualists, esp. Catholics. I have no idea, although it may be a case of something being said long anough and often enough makes people believe it as true. Although at school I was told the reasons that Catholic priests were celibate was because.
1. They could not dedicate themselves to their parishoners if they had a family.
2. Jesus wasn't married.
3. Church says so

There were more, but RS never really interested me much. But 1 is illogical in my eyes, many other people who are dedicated to serving the community can function with a family. About point 2. I have been told that at that time in that place it would be assumed that someone Jesus' age was married and that if he was not it would be mention and that its omission hints that he was married. But I know little of this, but if it can be proven by anyone I would be grateful. On 3. it is my experience that any authority is not nessaserily (sp?) because it has authority.

Obviously, the Roman Catholic clergy are not allowed to be married; but, the Byzantine Catholic clergy are allowed to marry and have children.

I thought it was a prerequisite to becoming a priest (although I think that I may be thinking of another religion)

If they were allowed to forgo celibacy they might stop fiddling with small boys. The church keeps moving pervy clergymen to other diosces but the cycle carries on there too and they have paid out lots of mone y in compensation to families of abused kids.

Your post just made me think.

Church bans priests from having families.

Makes a killing off the noble clergymen when they die.

Church become emensely rich and powerful over the ages.

20th Century, pay many children to shut up with money they made due to celibacy because of something the priest did because of celibacy.

It seems to me that half of you are not even Catholic and have no idea what you are talking about. According to Catechism 1579, when "accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God." Abuse that we seein the liberal media only happens when someone has the wrong vocation. Jesus told us in Mt " I will be with you always, until the end of time." What He meant was that He would not allow His Church, the one of Peter, not Luther or Calvin, to be overcome by the Devil. But He didn't say that it would not get nippped at the heels.

It seems to me that half of you are not even Catholic and have no idea what you are talking about. According to Catechism 1579, when "accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God." Abuse that we seein the liberal media only happens when someone has the wrong vocation. Jesus told us in Mt " I will be with you always, until the end of time." What He meant was that He would not allow His Church, the one of Peter, not Luther or Calvin, to be overcome by the Devil. But He didn't say that it would not get nippped at the heels.

Thats true. I'm not Catholic and don't understand. But pointing that out does not help me get where I want to be.

It seems to me that half of you are not even Catholic and have no idea what you are talking about. According to Catechism 1579, when "accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God." Oh, that's nice. But you don't say why. "Because the Church says so" is not a valid arguement, unless you can provide reasons that a celibate priest will perform his clerical functions better than a non-celibate priest.

It seems to me that half of you are not even Catholic and have no idea what you are talking about. According to Catechism 1579, when "accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God." Oh, that's nice. But you don't say why. "Because the Church says so" is not a valid arguement, unless you can provide reasons that a celibate priest will perform his clerical functions better than a non-celibate priest.

Agreed.
It turns it away from being a "love"/"faith" conviction into a doctrine valued for the rules only.

I really do not understand why catholics have this permanent celebacy thing... It's totally understandable to wait until marriage, especially for clergy... but never? That just leads to problems... especially when we live in a world with statistics of over 5000 priests being accused of child molestation.

What's worse is that the catholics would rather crack down on pro-choicers than take care of the corruption in the clergy and hierarchy.

If letting them have sex will keep their hands out the pants of alter boys, so be it.

I really do not understand why catholics have this permanent celebacy thing... It's totally understandable to wait until marriage, especially for clergy... but never? That just leads to problems... especially when we live in a world with statistics of over 5000 priests being accused of child molestation.

Not many Catholics do to. Liberal Catholics are against because of why it was introduced and the psychological effects it can have. Also it is thought that getting rid of it will help boost vocations for the priesthood. The Conservative Catholics are simply for it because the church said so a long time ago ("We don't like new ideas until they become old ideas seems to be the mantra").

What's worse is that the catholics would rather crack down on pro-choicers than take care of the corruption in the clergy and hierarchy.

I find that an upsetting fact too. Although I suspect that it is a poor attempt at misdirection.

Well, I actually AM a Catholic, so I can give a real opinion on this...

Celibacy really makes priests devoted to their tasks, and to their parishoners. When you consider the massive amounts of priests on this planet, the occurence of those who violate their vows and children is quite small - the largely anti-Catholic media has blown it out of proportion. But perhaps there is another way...

Celibacy amongst nuns has not been discussed here, but what if priests and nuns were allowed to marry?

Well, I actually AM a Catholic, so I can give a real opinion on this...

Well so AM I. So I can give, and have given, 'real' opinions on this. Not that you have to be a Catholic to give an opinion on this. (It is like saying "Well I am a Nazi, so only I can give a real opinion on the Jewish policy of the party")

Celibacy really makes priests devoted to their tasks, and to their parishoners.
Do you have any proof of this? I have already pointed out that many other professions that serve the community function perfectly well without forcing celibacy.
When you consider the massive amounts of priests on this planet, the occurence of those who violate their vows and children is quite small - the largely anti-Catholic media has blown it out of proportion. Granted, it is also over several decades. Lucky for me that I have held my opinion that priests should be able to marry before the pedophile priests scandal for various reasons. For example, it is an outdated law that was invoke due to economic issues rather than spiritual ones. It may help increase vocations in developed countries.

Celibacy amongst nuns has not been discussed here, but what if priests and nuns were allowed to marry? They would probably have children, and still be able to work in the community. Except Nuns who don't tend to work in the community anyway, but cloister themselves.

I am a Catholic as well and am very irritated about the many misconceptions of this child abuse scandal.

My fellow NS users, celibacy is NOT the main reason certain priests molest little kids. If they HAD been allowed to marry, those priests still would have molested them. Pedophillia has nothing to do with marriage. Doctors and lawyers and men and women of other professions rape kids all the time, some times even thier OWN kids. That proves that really, pedophillia is a disease that can be found in anyone. Why the craziness over this then? I'll tell you: we trusted these men with our children and our faith. We followed them and listened to what they had to say with (for the most part, some of these guys are windbags) reverance and respect. When this broke out, it crushed us to know that these men broke our trust, almost like if you found a beloved family member stealing from you. I shoudl know, one of the priests in my parish was found with child porn. He didn't rape anyone, but I myself was an altar server at the time, and it really scared me.

Personally I see the merits of priests getting married: they would be able to relate to families with children better. Then again, they might be too focused on the family to do what they need to do. The whole religous idea of celibacy (i know the reason it started, but it doesn't apply as much now) is sacrafice. They are giving up a life of family: they will never see thier children grow, they will never expirence the passion of love, they will never have a family of thier own. That is a major sacrafice. I respect the men who take the vow of celibacy, but I think it should be optional.

I am a Catholic as well and am very irritated about the many misconceptions of this child abuse scandal.

My fellow NS users, celibacy is NOT the main reason certain priests molest little kids. If they HAD been allowed to marry, those priests still would have molested them. Pedophillia has nothing to do with marriage. Doctors and lawyers and men and women of other professions rape kids all the time, some times even thier OWN kids. That proves that really, pedophillia is a disease that can be found in anyone. Why the craziness over this then? I'll tell you: we trusted these men with our children and our faith. We followed them and listened to what they had to say with (for the most part, some of these guys are windbags) reverance and respect. When this broke out, it crushed us to know that these men broke our trust, almost like if you found a beloved family member stealing from you. I shoudl know, one of the priests in my parish was found with child porn. He didn't rape anyone, but I myself was an altar server at the time, and it really scared me.

Personally I see the merits of priests getting married: they would be able to relate to families with children better. Then again, they might be too focused on the family to do what they need to do. The whole religous idea of celibacy (i know the reason it started, but it doesn't apply as much now) is sacrafice. They are giving up a life of family: they will never see thier children grow, they will never expirence the passion of love, they will never have a family of thier own. That is a major sacrafice. I respect the men who take the vow of celibacy, but I think it should be optional.

100% agree on the paedophillia thing. Catholic preist + kids does NOT = paedophillia
Your views on the reasons to choose celibacy are good but you have also given excellent reasons to be married. (These are closer to my views).
How does this relate to modern catholicism. Is there a difference with catholicism of say 50 years ago?

I am a Catholic as well and am very irritated about the many misconceptions of this child abuse scandal.

My fellow NS users, celibacy is NOT the main reason certain priests molest little kids. If they HAD been allowed to marry, those priests still would have molested them. Pedophillia has nothing to do with marriage. Doctors and lawyers and men and women of other professions rape kids all the time, some times even thier OWN kids. That proves that really, pedophillia is a disease that can be found in anyone. Why the craziness over this then? I'll tell you: we trusted these men with our children and our faith. We followed them and listened to what they had to say with (for the most part, some of these guys are windbags) reverance and respect. When this broke out, it crushed us to know that these men broke our trust, almost like if you found a beloved family member stealing from you. I shoudl know, one of the priests in my parish was found with child porn. He didn't rape anyone, but I myself was an altar server at the time, and it really scared me.

Personally I see the merits of priests getting married: they would be able to relate to families with children better. Then again, they might be too focused on the family to do what they need to do. The whole religous idea of celibacy (i know the reason it started, but it doesn't apply as much now) is sacrafice. They are giving up a life of family: they will never see thier children grow, they will never expirence the passion of love, they will never have a family of thier own. That is a major sacrafice. I respect the men who take the vow of celibacy, but I think it should be optional.

100% agree on the paedophillia thing. Catholic preist + kids does NOT = paedophillia
Your views on the reasons to choose celibacy are good but you have also given excellent reasons to be married. (These are closer to my views).
How does this relate to modern catholicism. Is there a difference with catholicism of say 50 years ago?

I think 50 years ago there would be less favour for priests to marry. It was well before pedophilia in the priesthood came to light which (rightly or wrongly) made some reassess the views for celibacy.

Stupid lag-ridden submit key. I HATE IT!

as you can tell by my name I am chatholic and like history.

Actually, I can tell nothing by your name. I never knew that Prester John was a catholic. There's at least one news columnist world wide who is a Prester John and isn't (necessarily) catholic.



If you look at the history of our church celabicy hasn't really been held in check. Even though priest's and other clergymen weren't supposed to have sex doesn't mean thet didn't. The church used to be political tool used by wealthy nobles who wanted more money and power. Many of them did't even care about the religious part of curch it was just a means to an end. There were popes who had children and were even kings of other countrys (spain). That has changed since the holy roman empire lost all power of state. I don't really understand why they ever had celibicy in the first place as far as religous reasons go, supposedly they are married to God and have no room for that kind of love but celebicy isn't practiced by rabbis so who came up with idea? I don't know.

I keep getting told by a Catholic friend that it's "so they can focus on their flock" (which has to be a complete lie, because how can one know what the sufferings of the flock are if they've not experienced, nor can
relate - to some degree - to them?), and that "they're married to God" (which I thought was more the calling of the Nuns exclusively, but okay).

And no, you're right...rabbis don't have to practise it, and it reminds me of that old joke.
There's this rabbi and this priest who are sitting in the same compartment of a train together. They get to talking, and, of course, the topic of their faiths comes up. "So", says the priest, "your faith doesn't allow you to eat pork for your whole life". The rabbi nods. "But surely there must have been times where you've wanted to try it before..." continues the priest, to which the Rabbi then confesses that yes, he'd tried it before. "Oy, it's true. I've succumbed before. But", the Rabbi says, not to be outdone, " it doesn't seem like as big a sacrifice to make as never making love". "It's a supreme sacrifice which we make for our church" states the priest. "Bu-u-ut...surely...hasn't it been so tempting? Have you ever succumbed?" asks the Rabbi, to which the Priest, with his head hung in shame, admits that yes, he too has erred from his faith.
"I just had to know...the temptation was too great" said the priest, to which the rabbi winked at the priest and replied "Better than PORK, isn't it?.

as you can tell by my name I am chatholic and like history.

Actually, I can tell nothing by your name. I never knew that Prester John was a catholic. There's at least one news columnist world wide who is a Prester John and isn't (necessarily) catholic.



If you look at the history of our church celabicy hasn't really been held in check. Even though priest's and other clergymen weren't supposed to have sex doesn't mean thet didn't. The church used to be political tool used by wealthy nobles who wanted more money and power. Many of them did't even care about the religious part of curch it was just a means to an end. There were popes who had children and were even kings of other countrys (spain). That has changed since the holy roman empire lost all power of state. I don't really understand why they ever had celibicy in the first place as far as religous reasons go, supposedly they are married to God and have no room for that kind of love but celebicy isn't practiced by rabbis so who came up with idea? I don't know.

I keep getting told by a Catholic friend that it's "so they can focus on their flock" (which has to be a complete lie, because how can one know what the sufferings of the flock are if they've not experienced, nor can
relate - to some degree - to them?), and that "they're married to God" (which I thought was more the calling of the Nuns exclusively, but okay).

And no, you're right...rabbis don't have to practise it, and it reminds me of that old joke.
There's this rabbi and this priest who are sitting in the same compartment of a train together. They get to talking, and, of course, the topic of their faiths comes up. "So", says the priest, "your faith doesn't allow you to eat pork for your whole life". The rabbi nods. "But surely there must have been times where you've wanted to try it before..." continues the priest, to which the Rabbi then confesses that yes, he'd tried it before. "Oy, it's true. I've succumbed before. But", the Rabbi says, not to be outdone, " it doesn't seem like as big a sacrifice to make as never making love". "It's a supreme sacrifice which we make for our church" states the priest. "Bu-u-ut...surely...hasn't it been so tempting? Have you ever succumbed?" asks the Rabbi, to which the Priest, with his head hung in shame, admits that yes, he too has erred from his faith.
"I just had to know...the temptation was too great" said the priest, to which the rabbi winked at the priest and replied "Better than PORK, isn't it?.

Stupid lag-ridden submit key. I HATE IT!


Thou shalt not have sex or pork for 20 years.
20 hail marys before bedtime too.

Sinner!!

It's just another example of the conflicting doctrine of Christianity.
In the Old Testament God told Humanity to be fruitful. However there is only Adam and Eve and they're gonna die. So that means in order for humanity to continue there will have to be alot of incest. Mose tried to fix some of it with special rules, but well it's still incest.

Later on in the New Testament somebody realized that there was indeed a great deal of incest going and that it was really, really gross. This guy was Jesus Christ it made the rule that every person who followed him had to be celibate.

Hhmm... so the Father says screw, the Son says pack it in, and the Ghost is undecided. I wonder what the Mother has to say? Probaly to be happy.

I really do not understand why catholics have this permanent celebacy thing... It's totally understandable to wait until marriage, especially for clergy... but never? That just leads to problems... especially when we live in a world with statistics of over 5000 priests being accused of child molestation.

What's worse is that the catholics would rather crack down on pro-choicers than take care of the corruption in the clergy and hierarchy.

Now that's not true. Control your ignorance. There has been a large crackdown on child molestation, and most priests tend to leave the politics of abortion to the people, though they do say their views. And your church seems to be more about cracking down on gays than fixing up their problems with adultery and corruption.

If they do stay celibate they will end up molesting small boys....

Celibacy does not make you a pedophile.

I really do not understand why catholics have this permanent celebacy thing... It's totally understandable to wait until marriage, especially for clergy... but never? That just leads to problems... especially when we live in a world with statistics of over 5000 priests being accused of child molestation.

What's worse is that the catholics would rather crack down on pro-choicers than take care of the corruption in the clergy and hierarchy.

Well I once had it explained by a Priest(never validated it myself) that there was a time when Priests, etc. were married. They also held land. When they died they did the natural thing of passing on land to their children. Well the Church saw it's holdings shrinking so they declared celibacy to be the way.....

Celibacy does not turn you to child molestation. Most like a pedophile either thought the Priesthood would "cure" his unnatural desires or he saw it as a way to get access.....

If letting them have sex will keep their hands out the pants of alter boys, so be it.

A pedophile will not change because he has access to a woman....

Except Nuns who don't tend to work in the community anyway, but cloister themselves.

Not true, several work with the poor. I went to Catholic schools and some of my punishments ;) was going out and helping a Nun as she made rounds to poor families they were helping....

as you can tell by my name I am chatholic and like history.

Actually, I can tell nothing by your name. I never knew that Prester John was a catholic. There's at least one news columnist world wide who is a Prester John and isn't (necessarily) catholic.



It is an old Christian Legend. iirc a letter, alledgedly from 'Prester John', circulated Europe/Christondom during the Middle Ages which claimed there was a Christian Kingdom beyond the lands of the infidel.

It's just another example of the conflicting doctrine of Christianity.
In the Old Testament God told Humanity to be fruitful. However there is only Adam and Eve and they're gonna die. So that means in order for humanity to continue there will have to be alot of incest. Mose tried to fix some of it with special rules, but well it's still incest.

Later on in the New Testament somebody realized that there was indeed a great deal of incest going and that it was really, really gross. This guy was Jesus Christ it made the rule that every person who followed him had to be celibate.

Hhmm... so the Father says screw, the Son says pack it in, and the Ghost is undecided. I wonder what the Mother has to say? Probaly to be happy.

Ok, first off: Catholics are not required to take Genesis seriously, actually, most priests I know do not. Second, Incest was punishable by death in Moses time. And at no time did Jesus say you HAD to be celibate, most priests werent for the longest time.

Except Nuns who don't tend to work in the community anyway, but cloister themselves.

Not true, several work with the poor. I went to Catholic schools and some of my punishments ;) was going out and helping a Nun as she made rounds to poor families they were helping....

I'm not saying that none of them do (I have met many who a perfect role models for Christian behaviour). But it was more of a comment of the Churchs attempts to reduce the roles of Female Orders in society (although this has lessened recently).

Except Nuns who don't tend to work in the community anyway, but cloister themselves.

Not true, several work with the poor. I went to Catholic schools and some of my punishments ;) was going out and helping a Nun as she made rounds to poor families they were helping....

I just got beaten with a ruler. Hands were so swelled up I couldn't play with my pogo stick for a week.

How do you explain the very high rate of child abuse that is committed by the catholic clergy?

How do you explain the very high rate of child abuse that is committed by the catholic clergy?

Old School. You don't follow the rules you get smacked.

It don't work for everybody. However, it worked for me. I was a tad headstrong when I was younger. Thought I knew better then everybody. I was "motivated" to study, be mindful, etc.

I hated the experience but it cleanned up my act.

I am advocating it? Not at all.

2. Jesus wasn't married.

He was according to Mary Magdeleine.

In Her gospel...not only was she the most beloved of all Jesus' disciples, but also his wife.

But Of course...Catholics are just like all other christians, and just dont believe that Apocryphal stuff, becuase some dead Pope ages ago didnt like what they said.

How do you explain the very high rate of child abuse that is committed by the catholic clergy?

Old School. You don't follow the rules you get smacked.

It don't work for everybody. However, it worked for me. I was a tad headstrong when I was younger. Thought I knew better then everybody. I was "motivated" to study, be mindful, etc.

I hated the experience but it cleanned up my act.

I am advocating it? Not at all.

I dont think he means that kind of abuse...

How do you explain the very high rate of child abuse that is committed by the catholic clergy?

Old School. You don't follow the rules you get smacked.

It don't work for everybody. However, it worked for me. I was a tad headstrong when I was younger. Thought I knew better then everybody. I was "motivated" to study, be mindful, etc.

I hated the experience but it cleanned up my act.

I am advocating it? Not at all.

I was not talking about smacking - Thats not abuse...
I was speaking to the sexual abuse of children by catholic priests

How do you explain the very high rate of child abuse that is committed by the catholic clergy?

Pedophillia is not restricted to one group of people. If these guys had been bikers intead of priests, they probably still would have molested children or had those type of desires. Pedophillia is a sexual fetish that can be found in anyone: doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. It doesn't matter who you are, in fact quite a few pedophiles are married people. It has no effect what career you follow. And I highly doubt Catholic priests are the only religous leaders that have molested children. We haven't heard about it yet, but I believe that soon a child-rape or porno case will come up involving a rabbi or minister.

It's just another example of the conflicting doctrine of Christianity.
In the Old Testament God told Humanity to be fruitful. However there is only Adam and Eve and they're gonna die. So that means in order for humanity to continue there will have to be alot of incest. Mose tried to fix some of it with special rules, but well it's still incest.

Later on in the New Testament somebody realized that there was indeed a great deal of incest going and that it was really, really gross. This guy was Jesus Christ it made the rule that every person who followed him had to be celibate.

Hhmm... so the Father says screw, the Son says pack it in, and the Ghost is undecided. I wonder what the Mother has to say? Probaly to be happy.

You are a fricking retard. Every person be celibate? What?! How can there be incest when there are only two people? Also, in Genesis, it says that all the first people lived for a couple hundred years. Also, the first part of Genesis is not historical fact. It is an example of what to do and what not to do. Christianity is not conflicting. It makes sense to everyone who has half a brain and can find the time to stop stoning/binging/whatever else and go to Mass on Sunday.

2. Jesus wasn't married.

He was according to Mary Magdeleine.

In Her gospel...not only was she the most beloved of all Jesus' disciples, but also his wife.

But Of course...Catholics are just like all other christians, and just dont believe that Apocryphal stuff, becuase some dead Pope ages ago didnt like what they said.

Acctually the Gospel of Mary Magadalene doesn't proclaim as such. The only true example for that you could give would be from the Gospel of Phillip (which doesn't appear in the Catholic Apocrypha, but rather was one of the texts found in the now famous Nag Hammadi Library in 1945), in which it says:

"And the companion of the Saviour is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on the mouth. The rest of the disciples were offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said unto him, 'Why do you love her more than all of us?' The Saviour answered and said unto them, 'Why do I not love her like you? ... Great is the myster of marriage, for without it the world would not have existed. Now the existence of the world depends on man, and the existence of man on marriage.'"

And even with that there is no real clear cut dialogue or proclimation of such (although certain events talked about in the New Testament could indicate such, given common marriage rites of the time).

As for the Apocrypha, it is a collection of Christian texts whose authenticity is seen as slightly suspect, but were not destroyed by the Church as texts of groups like the Ebionites were. They were deemed as unfit for the New Testament, which was first offically cannonized in its current form at the Council of Carthage in 397 CE (after about 30 years of research and debate). It wasn't the decision of a single pope to not include the texts, but rather that of all the church superiors of the time.

When it comes the issue of celibicy, I've never understood it myself (from a religious angle, as I certainly understand the church's financial thinking on the deal during the middle ages), as Paul and the early church heirarchy proclaimed that a bishop should be a man of one wife and a family. And that if a bishop or church father couldn't control his family and earn their love and respect, he could never do so with his congregation. In other words having a wife and a family was considered a good litmus test for how he would perform in his religious duties.

Some interesting facts:

>>>Celibacy


The Roman Catholic Church maintains that those who serve in their priest and nun system must remain celibate:

"All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate 'for the sake of the kingdom of heaven' ... Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God." Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church Pg. 440, #1579

However, the church does not tell it's members that the tradition of celibacy was not imposed until 1079 AD by Pope Gregory VII. Few Catholics realize that Peter, the "first pope," was a married man: "But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever..." Mark 1:30 Simon is the Apostle Peter. (See Matthew 4:18 and Matthew 10:2.)

History shows that Popes fathered other popes, bishops, priests and priests fathered popes. History also shows that nuns have been sexually abused and raped by priests.

The Apostle Paul said that clergy had the right to marry: 1 Corinthians 9:5 "Do we not have the right to the company of a believing wife, like the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?"

The Bible warns us that celibacy will be imposed by demonic teachings: 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings, 4:2 influenced by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared. 4:3 They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."

Why even the Roman Catholic Bible agrees with this teaching:

Qualities of a Bishop

1 Timothy 3:1-2 "This saying is true: if any one is eager for the office of Bishop, he desires good work. A bishop then must be married once..." The Marian Bible 1953

1 Timothy 3:12 "Deacons should be men who have been married once, ruling their children and their households". The Marian Bible 1953

Comments from the Marian Bible:

"Bishop, represents a Greek word meaning "overseer," and "presbyter" another Greek word meaning "elder." In St. Paul "bishop" and "presbyter" seem to be used covertibly, and probably priests are here included under the term "bishops." Married but once - Priestly celibacy as a law is of later ecclesiastical institution. No condemnation of second marriages in general is intended. Deacons - though this term is used in other places in the general sense of minister or servant, here it clearly refers to the sacramental office and order."

Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church leaders play god and impose doctrines of men. The doctrines fail, and the church is paying dearly for their stubbornness and refusal to obey God:

1 Corinthians 7:9 "But if they do not have self-control, let them get married. For it is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire."

Listed is a brief time line of priest-child sexual harassment, abuse and rapes. You will also find the church leadership concealing the abuse and denying that child abuse is a crime. The Roman Catholic Church has paid out billions of dollars in settlements for the crimes. However, the child has been robbed or his or her innocence, and violated in a way that will never be erased in their mind. That is something that all the money in the world cannot repair.

• 1985: Louisiana-Catholic Priest Gilbert Gauthe admits he sexually abused some 70 children starting in 1974. Gauthe gets 20 years in jail and the church pays out $18 million in settlements. (USA Today 2/25/02)

• 1990: Minneapolis-Jury awards man who sued Roman Catholic Church for sexual abuse $3.5 million. (USA Today 2/25/02)

• 1992: Chicago-Priest involved in sexual abuse is transferred to another church where he does it again. Allegations made against 50 priest over a period of 40 years. (USA Today 2/25/02)

• Between 1995 and 1999, 21 of 5,600 Catholic priests in England and Wales were convicted of offenses against children. One archbishop resigned over his handling of pedophile priests. (USA Today)

• 1997: Dallas-Former altar boy is awarded $119.6 million for sexual abuse. (USA Today 2/25/02)

• A bishop in Australia, was forced to resign, accused of covering up sexual abuses by a priest.

• 1995: Vatican: Priests Sexually Abuse Nuns-The Vatican has acknowledged that nuns are being sexually abused by some bishops, priests, and missionaries who are forcing them to have sex. Some nuns were forced to have abortions or take the pill. --Cathryn Conroy

• 1996: Sex Abuse Not a Crime?-Former Archbishop Robert Shanchez said child sex-abuse cases in the Archdiocese of Santa Fe were kept a secret because he didn't know it was a crime. (The Albuquerque Tribune,9/96)

• 1999: $1 Billion Spent to Settle Sexual Misconduct Cases-Three times in a little more than a year, sex scandals have driven high-ranking members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy from office. They have cost U.S. dioceses an estimated $1 billion in payments to victims. (DMN 7/28/99)

• 2000: French Bishop Guilty of Concealing Child Abuse- A court in Caen, France convicted a Roman Catholic Bishop of concealing knowledge that a priest was sexually abusing children. (USA Today 9/5/01)

• Roman Catholic bishop defends church amid sex abuse allegations in Labrador-50 civil lawsuits have been filed since 1997 alleging physical and sexual abuse of children during the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. By MICHAEL MACDONALD

• Former Catholic Priest Pleads Guilty to Molesting Boys-Former Roman Catholic priest admits he molested four boys. The investigation started after a mans suicide in 1999. The suicide was brought due emotional trauma he endured after being assaulted by Larson when he was a 12-year-old altar boy. (Reuters)

• Bawdy Bishop Joggles Britain-The evolving saga of Wrights antics with female parishioners has embarrassed the church and generated debate among Catholics over celibacy.

Wright, 56, the Bishop of Argyle and the Isles in Northwestern Scotland, first hit the headlines when he disappeared. He turned up days later with Kathleen MacPhee, 41 a divorced parishioner with three children, whom he counseled.

But Joanna Whibley, of East Sussex, England, steered public opinion from empathy to disdain. She disclosed that she and Wright had a sexual relationship. She said that he had abandoned her after she got pregnant. Their son, now 15, told BBC Television that he had known about his father, but had been unable to tell anyone. (USA Today)

• 2001: Church pays $5.2M in Molestation Case-The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Orange County agreed to pay a record $5.2 million settlement in a lawsuit that accused monsignor Michele Harris of molesting Ryan DeMaria, then 17, in 1991. (USA Today 8/22/01)

• Los Angeles-Orange County Diocese pays out $5.2 million for child abuse by priest.(USA Today 2/25/02)

• Report: Priests dying of AIDS-KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) - Roman Catholic priests in the U.S. are dying from AIDS-related illnesses at a rate four times higher than the general population and the cause is often concealed on their death certificates, The Kansas City Star reported Sunday.

• 2002:Priest Arrested on Rape Charges-Boston priest Kelvin Iguabita, is arrested on charges for raping a 15-year-old girl. January 15, 2002 Former Roman Catholic Priest John Geoghan-Former Roman Catholic priest sentenced to the maximum of nine to 10 years February 21, 2002 for fondling a 10-year-old boy. 130 people have said that John Geoghan fondled or raped them.

• Archdiocese of Philadelphia Dismisses Priests-The Archdiocese of Philadelphia has dismissed several priests after a review of records dating back 50 years found credible evidence that 35 priests had committed sexual abuse against children. 02/23/02

• Cardinal Won't Give Our Names-Cardinal Bernard Law said that 80 names of priest sex offenders have been given to Boston prosecutors. However, they cannot press charges because Law will not give out the victim’s names. February 2002 (AP)

• A priest in Spain is arrested in an Internet child pornography ring.

• 2002:In January, the Catholic Church in Ireland agreed to a landmark $110 million payment to children sexually abused by clergy over decades. More than 20 priests, brothers and nuns have been convicted of molesting children.(USA Today)

• Pope may sack Polish prelate in sex scandal By Matthew Day in Warsaw THE Pope was yesterday considering the future of the Archbishop of Poznan, one of Poland's most senior Roman Catholics, after allegations that he molested young clerics in his diocese. (Filed: 27/02/2002)

• Vatican TV boss leaves priesthood to wed lover By Bruce Johnston in Rome A ROMAN Catholic cleric who ran the Pope's television department until seven months ago said yesterday that he was leaving the priesthood to marry his pregnant lover (Filed: 14/02/2002)

•Florida Bishop Resigns Amid Sex Abuse Allegations

By Marianne Armshaw PALM BEACH GARDENS, Fla. (Reuters) - In the latest case of sex abuse allegations to hit the U.S. Roman Catholic church, a Florida bishop said on Friday he was resigning over inappropriate relations with a teenage seminary student in Missouri more than 25 years ago.Speaking at a news conference in Palm Beach Gardens, Anthony O'Connell, Bishop of Palm Beach, said he had written to the papal nuncio (the pope's envoy) in Washington to submit his resignation to Rome.

The bishop said on Friday the report was "essentially accurate."In the story, O'Connell acknowledged the allegations of former seminary student Christopher Dixon that the two "touched inappropriately in bed" when Dixon sought him out for counseling as a teen-age student at the St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Hannibal, Missouri, more than 25 years ago.

•Mass. AG May Seek Role in Catholic Church Over Abuse

By Christopher Noble BOSTON (Reuters) - In the exploding scandal over sex abuse in the Catholic Church, the Massachusetts attorney general in an unprecedented move has told the Boston Archdiocese that unless it protects children from sexual abuse by priests he will seek to influence the way it recruits and trains clerics.

•St. Louis priest accused of child sexual abuse

ST. LOUIS (AP) — The Archdiocese of St. Louis has removed a second priest over an allegation of past child sexual abuse, citing a tougher standard imposed after revelations of the child-molestation scandal involving the Boston archdiocese. Archdiocesan officials on Saturday identified the Rev. Michael Campbell as the priest forced to resign. Campbell is pastor of Our Lady of Sorrows and a member of the St. Louis Housing Authority board.

• Catholic Priests Ousted in Growing LA Sex Scandal

March 4, 2002 LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Up to a dozen Roman Catholic priests in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles have been removed from duty, as fallout from a child molestation scandal roiled the church in the United States, the Los Angeles Times reported on Monday.

•Abuse settlements draining church funds

BY RACHEL ZOLL, Associated Press

Sexual misconduct by Roman Catholic priests has cost the church in lost faith and broken lives. But the damage from the scandals has been financial as well as spiritual. Dioceses have sold land and buildings to pay off multimillion-dollar settlements. Some have borrowed heavily from other dioceses or their own parishes. Insurers have limited coverage, while bishops have quietly paid thousands of dollars in therapy costs for abusive priests and their victims.

The nationwide financial toll is not known, since most settlements are confidential. Estimates of payouts to victims range from $300 million up to $1 billion. The experiences of individual dioceses indicate the impact has been significant:

•The Diocese of Santa Rosa, Calif., had to sell property and take loans or donations of at least $7 million from about half the nation's 192 dioceses to help erase a $16 million debt related to sexual misconduct.

•The Diocese of Dallas had to mortgage and sell property to pay $11 million that its insurance didn't cover in the more than $30 million settlement against former priest Rudy Kos, convicted of sexually abusing boys.

•The Archdiocese of Santa Fe, N.M., was brought to the brink of bankruptcy, and had to borrow from parish savings accounts to pay more than $50 million to settle 40 abuse cases in the 1990s. The diocese settled a total of 165 such cases, but won't say how much it paid to resolve them.

•The Diocese of Tucson, Ariz., says it probably will have to borrow money from a bank or from parish accounts to pay what insurers won't in a settlement reached last month. The amount of the settlement, in the case of four priests accused of molesting boys, has not been revealed.

•Vatican concedes pedophilia not just an 'American' problem

Victor L. Simpson, Associated Press

•In January, the Catholic Church in Ireland agreed to a landmark $110 million payment to children sexually abused by clergy over decades. More than 20 priests, brothers and nuns have been convicted of molesting children.

•French Bishop Pierre Pican was convicted last year of keeping quiet about a priest who sexually abused children, the first time in more than 150 years that a high-ranking clergyman in France was found guilty of a crime. He received a three-month suspended sentence.

•Between 1995 and 1999, 21 of 5,600 Catholic priests in England and Wales were convicted of offenses against children. One archbishop resigned over his handling of pedophile priests.

•A bishop in Ballarat, Australia, was forced to resign in 1997, accused of covering up sexual abuses by a priest. Victims said the bishop moved the priest from parish to parish, instead of reporting him to police.

•A priest in rural Spain was arrested in early February as a suspect in an Internet child pornography ring that also served as an electronic forum for child abusers to exchange experiences.

While the pope has acknowledged the sex abuse problem, "it's obviously not a topic he's spoken a lot about, to put it mildly," said Philip F. Lawler, editor of Catholic World Report magazine.

•March 21, 2002 (AP) An influential black Roman Catholic priest (Monsignor Russell Dillard) has been removed from his parish and placed on administrative leave after admitting he might have "stepped over the line" with at least one teen-age girl.

•Facing accusations of sexual harassment, Polish archbishop resigns

03/28/2002 Associated Press WARSAW, Poland – An archbishop (Juliusz Paetz) in Pope John Paul II's homeland said Thursday that he has resigned following a Vatican probe and newspaper allegations that he made homosexual advances on young clerics.

•Priest arrested on child rape charges-CNN A man who accuses Paul Shanley of sexually abusing him as a child says the now-retired Roman Catholic priest raped him in a church confessional. The alleged abuse, authorities said Thursday, took place "almost on a weekly basis."

Shanley, 71, was arrested Thursday morning by San Diego, California, police -- the same police force with whom he had once done volunteer work. Shanley has been charged with three counts of raping a child with force.<<<

Not my writing. Just a heads-up.

I am a devote catholic and a moderate republican but in my opinon celibacy is crap. Lets face it being a virgin does not make you closer to god it just makes you horner and when someone gets horney they do a variety of gross stuff. They will probably look at playboys, get a escort, molest someone or seduce someone. However child molestation happenes in all religons and I think it is unfair the media is putting all the bad rep on my church. It is baised and bigoted. In fact child molesters come in all shaps, sizes, national origons, colors and religons. So you can't say oh this group does this or that group does that.

OOC:We should all take a lesson from The DaVinci Code. According to certain ancient cultures, they thought that having sex would actually make you close to god! :D

Allow me to explain:
It mentioned in the book that these ancient cultures believed that you would be the closest to God at one point during intercourse; at this one moment your mind is totally blank and you achieve a "spiritual orgasm"

IC: Be celibate if you personally feel like you should, not just 'cause religion tells you to. If you don't then just have sex responsibly

OOC:We should all take a lesson from The DaVinci Code. According to certain ancient cultures, they thought that having sex would actually make you close to god! :D

Maybe I should listen my bar on it and read it. If you want to know why I don't think it is worth the reading, a freind of mine read it and asked fopr my copy of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" (iirc). So I don't consider that anything that uses that as a source should be considered reliable.

Allow me to explain:
It mentioned in the book that these ancient cultures believed that you would be the closest to God at one point during intercourse; at this one moment your mind is totally blank and you achieve a "spiritual orgasm"


Forgive my horrendous ignorance, but isn't that like tantra?

Maybe I can add something to this discussion. I'm a college seminarian studying for the priesthood, and am currently 20.

The apostle Paul encourages celibacy of any person who is able, particularly leaders in the church (bishops/presbyters). It is correct that celbacy did not become mandatory in the Western rite until much later on.

The reason celibacy is practiced is that the priest, standing in persona Christi (in the person of Christ) is essentially marrying the Church (just as the Church is the bride of Christ). This is an image of heaven, where we will experience full union with God.

Practically, it would be impossible for a priest to be married. It would be radically unfair to his wife. A priest is called to give his entire life to the service of his people. If he had a wife or children, he would have to be ready to tell them at any moment that he had to leave them to serve some of his parishioners. He would never be able to give them any of the time that they truly deserve. I would never wish this kind of life on any woman. It would basically be like they were married, but regularly their husband wasn't there.

While I would love to be married and have children, I believe that God is calling me to something different, something that is better for me, and better for the people I will eventually serve. Therefore, I am willing to give up sex, and more importantly, family life, for the good that I am being called to do.

I'd like to address this namely to Catholics, but if your are not a Catholic and have something usefull to add I'd love to hear that to.

So, with even the Jesuit Order leading a push for reform on the issue of Clergy Celibacy should we keep the principal. I personally blame it for a number of problems now plaguing our Church and the loss of over 100,000 good Clergymen.
They shouldn't, and I'll tell you why. The rule that priests were to remain celibate dates back to the eleventh century. Bishops and priests had a lot of power, but as they couldn't answer to the kings and lords directly, these guys didn't want them around. So, in order to prevent dynasties in the clergy, this rule was passed as a compromise. It worked very well for the Middle Ages, but today, it's an obsolete rule.