NationStates Jolt Archive

I separated those two in the title because some people are under the impression that rap (and hiphop, etc?) isn't even music.

Of course, just coincidentally, these are the same people that don't like the way it sounds.

Well, I disagree.

I want to hear anyone's argument as to why music they don't like, particularly rap and similar genres, doesn't qualify as music.

I also want to hear from these people about the music they do like, and I want to know why their music is so much better. Morally? Musically? Artistically? Socially? Economically? Etc.

All rap is, is talking to a beat. No singing involved.

BTW, I listen to ska-punk. :D

All rap is, is talking to a beat. No singing involved. No streaching of the vocal chords.

BTW, I listen to ska-punk. :D

Rap does fit the definition of music, as a being a series of sounds that are connected in a pre-meditated and/or mathematical/logical order (therefore it does indeed qualify as music). However it is a genre that is unable to elicit an emotional connection and response from me, and is one that I don't particularly like to listen to (I tend to find it too disjointed and simple, which is also my assesment of most Nu and Rap-metal and the majority of alternative, ska, and punk that has been coming out lately).

As for the music I do like, it is rather varied, as I like to listen to Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Blues, Jazz, Fusion, Metal (a large cross-section of genres, including but not limited to, Heavy Metal, Power Metal, some Death Metal, B&B Metal, et alia), Classic Rock, and Opera. Usually I listen to music for the way it can influence your mindset and emotions, as well as for the technical merit of it (I'm studying classical guitar, so being well written and techinically demanding are two things I tend to look for in my perfered music more than most people). That's not to say that I don't like simple or minimalist compositional styles, as it can produce some amazing results (such as some of the film scores by Philip Glass), but anymore, such things are used simply because the artist or group are unable to write anything else due to lack of theory and inspiration. You don't have to write full symphonies, but at least try and use more than a simple I-IV-V or I-III-V chord progression in every song you write.

Damn posting errors...

There is a difference in Rap and Hip Hop. Rap is just talkin really fast to a beat. Hip Hop has singing and everyting.

Well, rap is kinda music, but I hate it.

"Hur! Up in Hur!
I got alota money!
I got gold teeth!
I got fast cars!
I got girls with so many STDs that if they did anything other than give me oral they'd probably be charged with manslaughter!

*chorus*
WE GOT NUKES!
WE GOT NUKES!"

Meh.

To me, music has 2 components: Rythmn and a melody. In my opinion rap only has one of those elements. I say this as a classical and jazz instrumentalist, but as a fan of good, genuine bands. Thank you.

I loathe and despise rap, hip hop and all that "shallow-as-piss-on-a-plate" "dance music. This worthless drivel is a cultural scourge. My dear good ol' uncle said it best "it sounds like a sick jackass in heat". I hear this verbal shit out of the windows of cars, in gym's, various clubs and in many stores as a walk by. You can't avoid it, and like a septic wound and it is spreading. . .

It's negative, much of it is shallow and meaningless, the rest is sexist, racist, and homophobic - it perpetuates "garbage culture" as I often call it.

I've always stuck to my roots. . .Mainly good ol' three chord rock, examples: Punk rock, garage bands, some classic rock as well as other stuff like, power pop (ala Ramones) and what they used to call "New Wave", and "Alternative". Some jazz, classical, Medieval music and the occasional opera piece (I like the Russian National anthem and "Oceania, tis for thee").

In short. all this rap crap is a sign of the times - that is, music like everything else since the the late 60/early 70's has become "disposable". It's all quite simple, there's little talent anymore, or you have too dig deep and long for it.

Hmm okay.

-Negative

This is a bad thing? Here's what "positive" music is: "It's a Small World After All." It promotes good. It promotes cultural and global unity. It's also incredibly lame. Agree?

Here's some more negative music: Dies Irae. You know, Day of Wrath, end of the world, destruction of mortal humanity, etc. An ancient medieval hymn and found in great works of music throughout the ages. Same with Carmina Burana, or any Requiem. So I don't think it fits that if music is 'negative' it is bad music.

-Shallow and meaningless

Well, that's subjective, isn't it, what one person finds meaning in, another might not.

-Sexist

Just like a LOT of literary and musical works. Taming of the Shrew, anyone?

-Racist

Blah. This word gets used too much, period. Everything is racist. Everyone is racist. If you have pride in yourself, you're racist. If you ever refer to another race, you're racist. Even if you're not racist, you're racist. And in any case, I don't hear racial prejudice evident in every or even most of the songs I've heard in these genres.

-Homophobic

Since we all know that rap classic, "I have an unhealthy fear of homosexuality, yo." I'm not sure how music can be racist OR homophobic.

-Sign of the times

There's this myth that music is always better 'back in the day.' You wait, 20 years from now people will be hearkening back to their 'roots' in rap, and despising something new. That's how it goes.

For me, I don't draw the line at late 60s/early 70s. Jimi Hendrix music sounds like a sick jackass in heat too. Almost all distorted guitars found in rock have the charming audio quality of small animals being vivisected. And I feel the way about rock as you do about rap.

I tell you, it may be easy for some of you, being white, to sit there and talk down about the "trash culture" of black people-- er, I mean of rap musical genres. You're not going to get looked at funny for not liking it. But I grew up and found that I didn't like ANY of the popular music. NONE of my friends' musics. I found that it all promoted "trash culture." It promoted simple, 3-chord music, boring duple and quadruple meters, predictably formed songs (intro, verse, chorus, blah blah blah).

Most people today can't even define or conceive of a music without "songs." At some point, songwriting, singing, and music videos all became more important than -actual music-.

/rant

I guess I feel that most if not all rap these days has made a departure from what it was, a social commentary set to a beat and samples, to pop music. I work with kids who have behavioral problems, and a lot of them identify with the thug/player mentality. What they and the majority of the rap "artists" nowadays don't realise is that the real thing would eat them alive. I think it's all pop now, and you don't have any message to it.

There is good rap, conscious rap. KRS One and Tribe Called Quest were two of them. Of course, this was a long time ago.

I sometimes had to watch "Cribs" on MTV with them, and I think once I saw a bookshelf in a rapper's home. Most of the time, though, it's a display of the worst noveau riche taste, all gold leaf and mirrors. It usually ends up proving that money can't buy you taste.

Still, all pop music is like that, and so are the people who make it. Trash with money and nothing to say that matters.

Why has rap grown so much? How can so many people honestly appreciate rap more then more technical inspired pieces? Where I live many people listen to rap and it bothers me... What happened to good ol rock? The times certainly are changing... Not only rap, it seems the amount of talented artists in this day and age is decreasing altogether... It's no surprise to me most of the music I listen to is 90's or earlier. (Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, U2)

Nietzsche said that life without music would be a mistake, so if life without rap would be a mistake, it's music. The only problem is that übermenschen are a stupid concept, but I'd say it's a good criteria, anyway.

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I absolutely detest rap. I mean, how much talent does it take to talk to a beat? And talk about how you're going to screw some chick you just met later on that night? Almost all of it has no point whatsoever!

I mean, I've tried listening to rap, but sometimes they talk so fast, you cannot even tell what the hell they are saying. I don't know, I just don't find it music, especially since there is no melody contained in it.

Who needs to listen to a bunch of idiots complaining about their girl not giving them any or being homophobic, what's the point in hearing that when you've got to listen your friends complain about it on a daily basis??

rap is more poetry than music.

music is supposed to have a thing called melody... usually harmony as well.


and old school rap is good.

Why has rap grown so much?

It's called blantant slick advertizing, and it's aimed at. . .yeah, you guessed it, teenagers! You see, these teenagers are infinately maleable, easily brainwashed and the corperate exec's that have this crap churned out like so much disposible garbage know this. I mean, they got whole groups of phycologists on staff. It's the Mc Donalds hamburger of music - cheap to produce, easy to produce, requires little or no talent and is designed for a rapid "high turnover rate" like so much cheap, shoddy merchandice. In short, it's disposable!

How can so many people honestly appreciate rap more then more technical inspired pieces?)

Refer to the above. . .

Where I live many people listen to rap and it bothers me... What happened to good ol rock??

As well it should. . .and as for rock, I hate to tell you this, but it's pretty much dead! I know, it's sad isn't it?

The times certainly are changing... Not only rap, it seems the amount of talented artists in this day and age is decreasing altogether... It's no surprise to me most of the music I listen to is 90's or earlier. (Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, U2)

But don't feel too bad. . .You obviously have a brain! Because you (like myself) possess the essential survival traits of discrimmination and the ability to critisize. So there is hope for us yet. . .Spread the good word. . .

I guess Rap fits the definition of music, but I see music as a way of expressing yourself...and I just don't see how shouting angrily into a mike about some hoes and killing people is...well...it just dosen't fit with all the other music.

I listen to Classic Rock just because I like it, it's about living while you're a live, and just everything that I can relate to.

Archosoria, you almost hit the nail right on the head. But rap is not aimed at teenagers: it's aimed at 8-12 year olds. What used to be Ronald McDonald is now rap (bad to worse). I have a young sister who listens to rap. I used to not understand what she sees in it.

Then one day I realized the truth: she likes it because it's popular. When I was little, "cool" people ruled the world, and many people were convinced that they had a brain behind the power.

Rap is hopefully just a fad, because I can't take it anymore!!! :cry:

Archosoria, you almost hit the nail right on the head. But rap is not aimed at teenagers: it's aimed at 8-12 year olds. What used to be Ronald McDonald is now rap (bad to worse). I have a young sister who listens to rap. I used to not understand what she sees in it.

Then one day I realized the truth: she likes it because it's popular. When I was little, "cool" people ruled the world, and many people were convinced that they had a brain behind the power.

Rap is hopefully just a fad, because I can't take it anymore!!! :cry:

Archosoria, you almost hit the nail right on the head. But rap is not aimed at teenagers: it's aimed at 8-12 year olds. What used to be Ronald McDonald is now rap (bad to worse). I have a young sister who listens to rap. I used to not understand what she sees in it.

Then one day I realized the truth: she likes it because it's popular. When I was little, "cool" people ruled the world, and many people were convinced that they had a brain behind the power.

Rap is hopefully just a fad, because I can't take it anymore!!! :cry:

Alright everyone on page one and probaly alot of you on page two, three, etc!!! Shutup and get a clue! You all keep saying the same thing and it's not even remotely intellgent which was the purpose of this thread. So let me clue you in to a few things.

1.)Yes rap is a genre of music just like all those idiot genres where goth and punk wannabes who are sad their mommy didn't hug them hoarsely scream their lungs out to distorted guiturs, and/or the drugged out losers of yester year who mumbled meaningless junk to ill-tuned crap, or even the classical music that has no words and thus becomes nothing but noise after awhile.

2.)Like everything else there are two sides to rap: the mainstream morass where everyone lives and the indie place where the few, the proud, the non-braindead live. Unfortuately you guys apparently don't know that because all you can see is the popular, shallow crap smeared across television. Then again you probaly don't want to and/or you can't bcause your head is so far up your butt.

3.)Fine, so maybe the livestyles of the rap elite aren't exactly subtle. Would you be any better if you just got a lot of money and you were what somewhere between eighteen and thirty? No, so shaddup!

4.)Rap came out in the mid to late eighties if it ain't dead yet it won't be. Get over it, people got over rock so get over rap.

5.)Do any of you people actually own any rap c.d.s? No? Well get one and listen all the way through an either album. I can almost assure that there will be at least one track dedicated to someone who died. Why because this is their life. Hoes, drugs, people who don't care, and people who don't want to care. So you talking about something you can't relate to when you diss rap. Try living in the ghetto some time see how positive and happy-joy-joy you are.

6.)Yo Evil Hate you obviously aren't the smartest most talented person. Just look at your name. Can you rap? Ten to one nah! So shove it up yours! Besides which are you just listening to a radio or an actual album? And what people are you listening to? By the way you are the idiot, 'cause between you and them they're the ones in the big houses with the big bucks.

7.)Melody is a state of mind. You feel it or you don't. There is melody in rap it just takes someone who feels it to see it.

So that's my rant take it or blast it. I don't care 'cause I know where I'm coming from and I know where I'm going.

Alright everyone on page one and probaly alot of you on page two, three, etc!!! Shutup and get a clue! You all keep saying the same thing and it's not even remotely intellgent which was the purpose of this thread. So let me clue you in to a few things.

1.)Yes rap is a genre of music just like all those idiot genres where goth and punk wannabes who are sad their mommy didn't hug them hoarsely scream their lungs out to distorted guiturs, and/or the drugged out losers of yester year who mumbled meaningless junk to ill-tuned crap, or even the classical music that has no words and thus becomes nothing but noise after awhile.

2.)Like everything else there are two sides to rap: the mainstream morass where everyone lives and the indie place where the few, the proud, the non-braindead live. Unfortuately you guys apparently don't know that because all you can see is the popular, shallow crap smeared across television. Then again you probaly don't want to and/or you can't bcause your head is so far up your butt.

5.)Do any of you people actually own any rap c.d.s? No? Well get one and listen all the way through an either album. I can almost assure that there will be at least one track dedicated to someone who died. Why because this is their life. Hoes, drugs, people who don't care, and people who don't want to care. So you talking about something you can't relate to when you diss rap. Try living in the ghetto some time see how positive and happy-joy-joy you are.



I'm calling bollocks. I own several rap cd's and a couple on vinyl. Of course, they're all old school rap, because there isn't much to say about the new stuff. It's cheap and fake. I started disliking any of it after Dr. Dre's first album, which was good, spawned all these copycat pieces of shyte. The originality is gone. It's pop now. I know damned well what the correllation between rap and punk is too. God, if only I could get a job in A&R, I'd shut P-Diddy and Usher down.

NiSora, I am sorry to break your heart, but I truly doubt many of these rappers truly grew up in the ghetto. Some may have, but not all.

Not all rap is complete garbage. Some I find to be very well done. Unfortunately, this does not ring true for the mass majority of rap. Personally, I believe music to be Art. And through this Art, musicians and song writers allow thier deepest feelings to flow for the world to see and admire the true magnificance of the human mind. Now, Eminem's song about killing his ex-wife (I am indeed sorry that I do not know the name), does not represent in anyway creativity. It represents cruel and heartless violence that we all hope that the human race has triumphed over. Plus, he also states in a song that he wants to rape his OWN MOTHER.
...
...
...
What kind of Art is that? Keep rap if you want, just get rid of all the crap.

I think what NS2 was trying to say was that people were slinging out the same old crap without giving much reason or thought to it. So NS2 was just trying to put a little information out there for those guys to chew on and think about.

I separated those two in the title because some people are under the impression that rap (and hiphop, etc?) isn't even music.

Of course, just coincidentally, these are the same people that don't like the way it sounds.

Well, I disagree.

I want to hear anyone's argument as to why music they don't like, particularly rap and similar genres, doesn't qualify as music.

I also want to hear from these people about the music they do like, and I want to know why their music is so much better. Morally? Musically? Artistically? Socially? Economically? Etc.

Rap is not music because it is an almost monotone chant to a background beat. Also, it is almost meaningless now as so many of the rappers just talk about money, sex, drugs, and what ladies they get for chanting like that.

Personally, i listen to all types of rock, but my favorite band is AFI, which has almost made its own niche, like LP did. AFI has an incredibly broad band of style that appeals to almost everyone. Have a taste of it next time you go to a store that lets you preview music.

When I think of music, there's music, and there's rap. I separate the two in my mind, because of the radical differences I see in them personally. I know the music industry considers rap to be a classification of music, and I'm fine by that, but the way I see it, is that rap is a spoken art where music is a singing art.

I used to like rap a year ago. I used to own their cds(I threw away after I was yearning for more rockish stuff) Now I've changed a lot. Most kids at my school are such rap fans. They like rap and rnb. I'm basically the outsider of this school(I'm the only emo boy). Rap takes talent but rock has much more talent that rap. It's hard to play an instrument and sing at the same time sometimes. So I prefer rock. I feel like the only rocker kid at my school. I listen to metalcore, emo, hardcore, some punk pop, true punk(sex pistols, clash), indie(Fugazi, Interpol), screamo, emo-core. Being only 12, it's really interesting that I listen to alll this stuff. Neone kno any other 12 years olds who listen to this type of music?

Rap is music.

Doesn't mean I have to like it :p



.....Well, ok, I can tolerate some, and I really don't mind Tupac at all

BTW, I listen to ska-punk. :D

You're just a dirty skater-boy then.

Hey wait, just noticed someone mentioned AFI

AFI friggin ROCKS. They just need to get their arses over to a studio and make another cd now :p

Though I've really been getting more into The Bled as of late...

much as i hate to admit it, rap is probably music to some...

...music being sound which is pleasing the the ear.

So there isn't anything absolute about music - it's to do with personal preference. Some think it's hot, some think it's not

Never mind rap...gimme Monteverdi and Pink Floyd any day :D

Archosoria, you almost hit the nail right on the head. But rap is not aimed at teenagers: it's aimed at 8-12 year olds. What used to be Ronald McDonald is now rap (bad to worse). I have a young sister who listens to rap. I used to not understand what she sees in it.

Then one day I realized the truth: she likes it because it's popular. When I was little, "cool" people ruled the world, and many people were convinced that they had a brain behind the power.

Rap is hopefully just a fad, because I can't take it anymore!!! :cry:

You may be right, but generally it's aimed at the very young - who as I've said before are infinatly maleable, impressionable and so on.

"Nothing comes from within, it all comes from without"

And yes, of course your sister likes it because it's popular! I mean really!, surely she couldn't like it because it has talent! could you?! Your sister like the vast multitudes wishes to "belong".... But, belong to what? Well, basically some peer group. Young kids are looking for something to latch on to, they wish to belong, to be a part off, and if they are not then they will not be "cool" and with the "in crowd".

I've always said, that when you are a part of the majority, it's time to seriously re-examine yourself, time for self-introspection.

Like the blind sheep that they are, they will eat whatever shit is shoveled into there feeding trough (trust me I know, I lived on a farm for half my life) and they will like it because they are told to like it!

No discrimmination. . .just consume,consume,consume. . .Quite sad really!

Still time is on our side, time obliterates all - the great destroyer, entropy. . .

Rap is not music because it is an almost monotone chant to a background beat.

ALMOST monotone. Well, it's not monotone. So it's music.

Chanting has always been a form of music anyway, monotonous or not.

Rap is music. Some of it may be god awful, but it is music. Old School rap such as public enemy is good though IMO...as someone said, the lyrics in rap are poetry and it does take talent to write it well.

Anyone criticising rap on the basis of its popularity should also take note. If someone listens to rap and can get an emotional attachment or appreciate the message behind it, well good luck to them. Music is in the ear of the listener.

I agree rap is music, but it definately isnt good music. I put it into the same category as country. I just can't find any intelligence in either genre. Now there are some exceptions, but they are far and few. Outkast and Sage Francis are two examples, but they are more hip-hop. And Sage Francis is a poet first and hip-hop artist second. As for country, I can't find any examples. Most of them are hokey songs about love, trucks, booze, or how great america is. As for the music I like, politically charged punk is intelligent, fast, and just all around great.

I think a lot of people don't fully understand what rap is all about, it seems like they base all their assumptions about the genre on what they see on MTV.

There's a lot of good rap/hip hop out there that people are missing out on.

I agree rap is music, but it definately isnt good music. I put it into the same category as country. I just can't find any intelligence in either genre. Now there are some exceptions, but they are far and few. Outkast and Sage Francis are two examples, but they are more hip-hop. And Sage Francis is a poet first and hip-hop artist second. As for country, I can't find any examples. Most of them are hokey songs about love, trucks, booze, or how great america is. As for the music I like, politically charged punk is intelligent, fast, and just all around great.

Intelligent rap: Deltron 3030, Jedi Mind Tricks, Aesop Rock, The Spooks, The Streets, to name a few.

Anyone criticising rap on the basis of its popularity should also take note. If someone listens to rap and can get an emotional attachment or appreciate the message behind it, well good luck to them. Music is in the ear of the listener.

The rare person that I spend a lot of time with who enjoys rap says that they like it because "it has a good beat". Now, I was shocked by this. Basically every genre of music has a beat, and some of them have beat much better than rap's. When I say this to them, they usually can't come up with any way to respond.

If any other music with a good beat were popular, I'm sure they would like that instead.

Intelligent rap: Deltron 3030, Jedi Mind Tricks, Aesop Rock, The Spooks, The Streets, to name a few.

Thanks, I'll check 'em out.

Intelligent rap: Deltron 3030, Jedi Mind Tricks, Aesop Rock, The Spooks, The Streets, to name a few.

Thanks, I'll check 'em out.

I live to serve.

7.)Melody is a state of mind. You feel it or you don't. There is melody in rap it just takes someone who feels it to see it.

So that's my rant take it or blast it. I don't care 'cause I know where I'm coming from and I know where I'm going.

*blasts it* :twisted:

Melody is something that can be written down as sheet music.

People slag off hip hop, and thats fair enough, because theyre only exposed to mainstream stuff like Dre, 50 cent and Eminem (all awful) but if people look further to bands like Jurassic 5, Cypress hill or Handsome boy modelling school, then they can find that Rap isnt all just people mumbling something about "smacking their hos[sic?]"

BTW, I listen to ska-punk. :D

You're just a dirty skater-boy then.
Actually ska is a type of regee(sp.). http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDMISS70311081526121920&sql=C4420 This is the rite place to understand what it is.

Anyone criticising rap on the basis of its popularity should also take note. If someone listens to rap and can get an emotional attachment or appreciate the message behind it, well good luck to them. Music is in the ear of the listener.

The rare person that I spend a lot of time with who enjoys rap says that they like it because "it has a good beat". Now, I was shocked by this. Basically every genre of music has a beat, and some of them have beat much better than rap's. When I say this to them, they usually can't come up with any way to respond.

If any other music with a good beat were popular, I'm sure they would like that instead.

Uh-huh, I can agree. But the point is, they like it and enjoy listening to it, so good luck to them. You can always laugh at the Eminem and Snoop Dogg fans behind their back.

People slag off hip hop, and thats fair enough, because theyre only exposed to mainstream stuff like Dre, 50 cent and Eminem (all awful) but if people look further to bands like Jurassic 5, Cypress hill or Handsome boy modelling school, then they can find that Rap isnt all just people mumbling something about "smacking their hos[sic?]"

Yeah. They rap about getting stoned! j/k. I actually like Cypress.