NationStates Jolt Archive

Most politicians lie to get elected. John Howard continues to lie throughout his terms.

Most politicians lie to get elected. John Howard continues to lie throughout his terms.

Ros Kelly ring a bell Filamai?

I don't think lying during terms is a John Howard-specific thing. To think so would be kidding yourself.
At the end of the day it is who provides the best government. They will all lie so whats the point of trying to argue who lies most. The reality is we cannot afford to have Latham get in and spend like money grows on trees then the following election vote Liberal back in to clean up the mess. Lets prevent the mess from happening in the first place.

I don't think lying during terms is a John Howard-specific thing. To think so would be kidding yourself.
At the end of the day it is who provides the best government. They will all lie so whats the point of trying to argue who lies most. The reality is we cannot afford to have Latham get in and spend like money grows on trees then the following election vote Liberal back in to clean up the mess. Lets prevent the mess from happening in the first place.

I'm not saying and have never said that it's a John Howard specific thing, I'm saying we should vote out those who do it to that level. Which means Howard is very much out.

And the point is we vote in Latham to clean up Howard's mess. There's a lot of it; while he's done well in strengthening our economy, the administration has caused wanton damage to society.

The policies that have Labor labelled as big spenders are the bills that the Liberals left unpaid.

The policies that have Labor labelled as big spenders are the bills that the Liberals left unpaid.

Howard paid off over $70 billion of Keating's $96 billion government debt (which he managed to get into within 5 years).

Perhaps Filamai you do not know much about what life was like for the average Australian under Whitlam, Hawke and Keating. Many do, and that has helped Howard stay in government for so long.

I for one do not want to return to 17% interest rates and 11% unemployment. Times are relatively good, so if it aint broke why fix it?

Are you going to throw Howard out because he said he would never ever implement a GST just so Mark Latham can increase the GST by 10%?

If Latham won (god help us all) then he would be a second Whitlam. He would last one term and be thrown out. Meanwhile it would be back to square one (with Labor having financially crippled Australia).

I notice Smeagol is avoiding this thread ever since I came out with those statistics :lol:

You sound surprised! Animal and the Greens supporters abandoned this thread ages ago after they were confronted by logical arguments.

You sound surprised! Animal and the Greens supporters abandoned this thread ages ago after they were confronted by logical arguments.

LOL. Yes, sad. Yet what concerns me is that many people do NOT question what politicians like Latham say.

He says "free education" and few people question it publicly. I sure hope people reading the papers and watching the news question such rot.

I notice the Peter Garrett media circus is in full swing now..radio and TV interviews. Seems the shiny yo-yo is actually a bald-headed, millionaire former rock star who has abandoned his radical thoughts on the environment and is now content to take a back seat and toe the party line.

I notice the Peter Garrett media circus is in full swing now..radio and TV interviews. Seems the shiny yo-yo is actually a bald-headed, millionaire former rock star who has abandoned his radical thoughts on the environment and is now content to take a back seat and toe the party line.

Is he GAY? He sounds gay. Just wondering. (man that was stereotypical! LOL)

You know, I have a feeling the ALP branches around Kingsford-Smith will turn against latham on this. They may lose ultimately, but I have a feeling Garett is going to push people away from Latham.

What experience does Garett have? Apparently he has a law degree but breaks the law by not voting!

And Mark Latham wants children to have good role models? I hope he is excluding members of the ALP in that.

Of course in the case of Mr.Latham it is do as I say not as I do.

I agree Garrett may backfire because he is a radical and will not enjoy being a small fish in a large pond.

Apparently Garrett's wife has never voted either, I mean he must be really serious about Australian government and politics if he and his wife couldn't be bothered registering to vote. And he calls himself a political activist...inactivist is closer to the mark I'd say.

Of course in the case of Mr.Latham it is do as I say not as I do.

I agree Garrett may backfire because he is a radical and will not enjoy being a small fish in a large pond.

Apparently Garrett's wife has never voted either, I mean he must be really serious about Australian government and politics if he and his wife couldn't be bothered registering to vote. And he calls himself a political activist...inactivist is closer to the mark I'd say.

HERE HERE

I notice Smeagol is avoiding this thread ever since I came out with those statistics :lol:

I am still patiently waiting for you to provide a verifiable source for your claim of $3 per litre for fuel.

Anyone can invent "statistics". Lets see a source, so readers will not suspect you of inventing your so-called "statistics".

The Greens, you have to be kidding! They have no polcies outside of "Save the whales".

The Greens, you have to be kidding! They have no polcies outside of "Save the whales".

For those interested in intelligent debate, as opposed to ill-informed propaganda, the Greens policies can be found at:

http://www.greens.org.au/

For the rest, who cares.

Meanwhile, a check of the Liberal home page at

http://www.liberal.org.au/

fails to mention the word "policy".

Guess they're still trying to work out the difference between "core" and "non-core" promises.

The policies that have Labor labelled as big spenders are the bills that the Liberals left unpaid.

Howard paid off over $70 billion of Keating's $96 billion government debt (which he managed to get into within 5 years).

Perhaps Filamai you do not know much about what life was like for the average Australian under Whitlam, Hawke and Keating. Many do, and that has helped Howard stay in government for so long.

I for one do not want to return to 17% interest rates and 11% unemployment. Times are relatively good, so if it aint broke why fix it?

Are you going to throw Howard out because he said he would never ever implement a GST just so Mark Latham can increase the GST by 10%?

If Latham won (god help us all) then he would be a second Whitlam. He would last one term and be thrown out. Meanwhile it would be back to square one (with Labor having financially crippled Australia).

I'm going to throw Howard out because he raised the cost of university to four times '96 levels and introduced full fee places.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he turned medicare into welfare.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he took us into a war we should never ever have participated in.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he is damaging our country to the point where some things cannot be repaired.

Mark Latham is no Gough Whitlam, but he's the closest thing Labor has. We need another Gough.

The policies that have Labor labelled as big spenders are the bills that the Liberals left unpaid.

Howard paid off over $70 billion of Keating's $96 billion government debt (which he managed to get into within 5 years).

Perhaps Filamai you do not know much about what life was like for the average Australian under Whitlam, Hawke and Keating. Many do, and that has helped Howard stay in government for so long.

I for one do not want to return to 17% interest rates and 11% unemployment. Times are relatively good, so if it aint broke why fix it?

Are you going to throw Howard out because he said he would never ever implement a GST just so Mark Latham can increase the GST by 10%?

If Latham won (god help us all) then he would be a second Whitlam. He would last one term and be thrown out. Meanwhile it would be back to square one (with Labor having financially crippled Australia).

I'm going to throw Howard out because he raised the cost of university to four times '96 levels and introduced full fee places.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he turned medicare into welfare.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he took us into a war we should never ever have participated in.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he is damaging our country to the point where some things cannot be repaired.

Mark Latham is no Gough Whitlam, but he's the closest thing Labor has. We need another Gough.

Well said. It seems that the Liberals policy consist of nothing more than "follow Uncle Sam, he'll look after us", and a claimed good financial management.

The so-called good management is based largely on surplus budgets. These occur when the Commonwealth gathers in more money, from increased taxes,( aided by "bracket creep" for the poor old PAYE worker),
than what they spend on services, like health and education.

The surplus thus consists of comparatively high taxes and low spending. Repeated polling has shown that the Australian people are becoming rightly tired of this mismanagement.

It is pointless, as well as cynical, to throw "surpluses" around like a drunken sailor come election time, whern the money should have been spent on providing services during the tenure of the government.

Meanwhile, our erstwhile "allies" in the US are clocking up record deficit budgets. Go figure.

Speaking of our erstwhile allies, they're taking a great interest in the running of our great brown land, aren't they?

Scared of losing their 'Sheriff'.

Speaking of our erstwhile allies, they're taking a great interest in the running of our great brown land, aren't they?

Scared of losing their 'Sheriff'.

I think you mean "Deputy". I doubt if we will ever be promoted beyond trusty side-kick.

Speaking of our erstwhile allies, they're taking a great interest in the running of our great brown land, aren't they?

Scared of losing their 'Sheriff'.

I think you mean "Deputy". I doubt if we will ever be promoted beyond trusty side-kick.

(Don't you remember when Bush called Howard his sheriff of the pacific, and gave him a pat on the head and a dog biscuit?

Well I might be exageratting a bit on the dog biscuit, but you get the picture)

The policies that have Labor labelled as big spenders are the bills that the Liberals left unpaid.

Howard paid off over $70 billion of Keating's $96 billion government debt (which he managed to get into within 5 years).

Perhaps Filamai you do not know much about what life was like for the average Australian under Whitlam, Hawke and Keating. Many do, and that has helped Howard stay in government for so long.

I for one do not want to return to 17% interest rates and 11% unemployment. Times are relatively good, so if it aint broke why fix it?

Are you going to throw Howard out because he said he would never ever implement a GST just so Mark Latham can increase the GST by 10%?

If Latham won (god help us all) then he would be a second Whitlam. He would last one term and be thrown out. Meanwhile it would be back to square one (with Labor having financially crippled Australia).

I'm going to throw Howard out because he raised the cost of university to four times '96 levels and introduced full fee places.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he turned medicare into welfare.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he took us into a war we should never ever have participated in.

I'm going to throw Howard out because he is damaging our country to the point where some things cannot be repaired.

Mark Latham is no Gough Whitlam, but he's the closest thing Labor has. We need another Gough.

Oh boy...You want to throw Howard out and replace him with a man who emulates a man who crippled Australia and sent us bankrupt?

Ok...I am going to write Tony Abbot and ask about the state of our mental health facilities!

You clearly have simplified issues such as the war in Iraq. Have you any idea of what a monster Saddam was? He murdered 300,000 people and probably more that we do not know about! He invaded his neighbours and used chemical weapons on scores of people.

I do not care if Bush was wrong on his WMD pretext. Frankly I believe Saddam needed to be ousted and it would not surprise me to discover that he was financing terrorist cells to get back at the USA over the Gulf War.

We must eradicate safe havens for terrorists and eliminate their sources of money to carry out cowardly acts.

On another point: Medicare is welfare! Any form of government assistence to people is a form of welfare.

And how is Howard "damaging the country"? The lowest unemployment in 23 years, a booming economy and low interest rates - not to mention programs to improve national infrastructure and soon-to-be released policies on greenhouse gases and the environment. We must co-exist with the environment and continue to promote a strong economy.

...As for university fees. He has offered universities the choice to increase HECS by a maximum of 25%. Some universities have raised HECS to 25%, some 15% and some not at all. If you wish to blame anybody, then blame the universities and the people on the boards. They are the ones who increased the fees.

If not for increasing HECS (of which medicine costs a measly $28,000 for a degree) then the taxpayer would be left to pick up a multi-billion dollar bill. You will never convince the 70% of Australians who do not have a university degree that they should pay higher taxes to support whinging left wing student activists who trash the offices of Vice Chancellors etc.

Back to the original topic: the future is Green!

Mark Latham has no credibility, his policies are almost exactly the same as Howard's, he just wants his office. The way he's using the peace movement to help his goal is admirable though...

- he doesn't care about the environment, because having to protect it properly will damage the economy
- he doesn't care about homosexual or aboriginal rights or welfare, because we all know they aren't real people :evil:
- he won't even legalise marijuana, despite the fact that it's actually healthier than tobacco or caffeine
- he won't even increase funding to industries that will benefit the economy ie arts/culture.

The Greens are the only way forward, we can't let the desert creep further towards the coasts!

Just on the subject of aboriginal rights, I think that we should reconfigure the existing states to allow a whole state to be declared native title territory (oriented around those areas currently existing as native title).

I notice Smeagol is avoiding this thread ever since I came out with those statistics :lol:

I am still patiently waiting for you to provide a verifiable source for your claim of $3 per litre for fuel.

Anyone can invent "statistics". Lets see a source, so readers will not suspect you of inventing your so-called "statistics".

A Holden Commodore (a family car) can hold 75 Litres of petrol (don't believe me, then call Holden and check for yourself - or visit their website). At $3 a Litre for petrol, it would cost you $225 to be precise to fill the tank.

That is in fact $15 more than I claimed. So my apologies. It should be $225 to fill up the family car.

That was as above on page 13. You are clearly NOT reading the posts on this thread Smeagol.

- he won't even increase funding to industries that will benefit the economy ie arts/culture.


Uh...I would imagine investing in steel and shipbuilding, or major infrastructure program's like the government's AusLink plan benefit the economy.

How do a few paintings boost economic conditions exactly?

I notice Smeagol is avoiding this thread ever since I came out with those statistics :lol:

I am still patiently waiting for you to provide a verifiable source for your claim of $3 per litre for fuel.

Anyone can invent "statistics". Lets see a source, so readers will not suspect you of inventing your so-called "statistics".

A Holden Commodore (a family car) can hold 75 Litres of petrol (don't believe me, then call Holden and check for yourself - or visit their website). At $3 a Litre for petrol, it would cost you $225 to be precise to fill the tank.

That is in fact $15 more than I claimed. So my apologies. It should be $225 to fill up the family car.

That was as above on page 13. You are clearly NOT reading the posts on this thread Smeagol.

On Page 13 you merely corrected your maths. Provide a source for your claimed $3 a litre.

Can you understand that?

I cannot think of a simpler way of expressing it.

Source please, other than your own wild flights of fancy.

Nobody is disputing the size of a Commodore's fuel tank. And we are all very proud of you for getting the multiplication right after two attempts. But, the missing bit of the equation is the suggested cost per litre - source other than your imagination?

You are clearly NOT answering the question.

Yeah, Saddam was a horriffic dictator with his own personal plastic shredder and two evil sons; he used chemical weapons on his own people. There are a lot of tinpot dictators. However:

http://www.rain.org/homeschool/world-map-country-names.gif

Point to Iraq, then point to Australia.

Why exactly, have we(the 'coalition') destroyed the stable, if unpleasant country of Iraq, and replaced it with a terrorist hotbed, making Australia a priority target for the terrorists in question in the process?

The "Saddam sanctioned terrorism!!!" business is clear cut bullshit. Saddam Hussein's dictatorship was a secular state, Al Qaeda want their brand of fundamentalist militant "Islam" to take over the world. I wouldn't be surprised if Saddam fed a few terrorists into his plastic shredder as well as political dissidents.

Remember JI's Bali bombings? Remember Howard using it as a cynical attempt to justify invading Iraq? That's how desperate he was.

And no, medicare is(was) -not- welfare. Welfare is as per the dole, and the direction medicare is being pushed towards being a "safety net." Medicare is not meant to be a safety net, it is supposed to be universal health coverage for all Australians. It was Gough Whitlam, the great man himself, who implemented medicare, and it is one of his greatest achievements. I am voting for a man whom emulates our greatest ever prime minister.

As for university fees, the 25% HECS increase is relatively minor compared to the 400% HECS increase over the last 8 years due to Howard's mismanagement. I'm not talking about the 25% increase, because it's not counted in that 400%. For the poor suckers starting next year, the 25% increase makes it 500% of the '96 fees.

Why exactly, have we(the 'coalition') destroyed the stable, if unpleasant country of Iraq, and replaced it with a terrorist hotbed, making Australia a priority target for the terrorists in question in the process?


I take it then you are comfortable with brutal regimes killing thousands provided it does not effect Australia. The fact that Saddam has been ousted is all the justification this war needed.
Gadaffi then decided he better get rid of his nuclear program because he knew he was probably on the list of tyrants to be taken out. So thats 2 tyrants exiting stage left.

Terrorism was always here, the way you people talk it was as though it was unheard of until the US took on the Taliban in Afghanistan. The fact that the aims of terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and JI is to convert everyone to Islam and kill those that refuse to convert. Their aim is a world under Islamic law, no less.
The reasons they give for their attacks indicate this, they mention the ousting of the Moors from Spain in the 15th Century...I am sure John Howard, Tony Blair and George W Bush were not around then.
As far as Iraq not supporting Al Qaeda because Iraq was a secular government. This is at best naive, over history people with different beliefs but aiming for the same goal (eg destroying the western world, destruction of Israel etc etc) join forces for the common goal. They may not like each other...in fact bin Laden called Iraq an evil nation for not being an Islamic government but he also said that because they were fighting the US they were useful at this point in time.

I found it heartening when world leaders gathered at Normandy to commemorate the D-Day landings that was the bginning of the end for the Nazis. That the world leaders of today could be looked upon in the same light as they reflected on the beginning of the end of depotic governments in the Middle East and the beginning of the end for world terrorism.

I mean, you are against the war in Iraq. I assume 70 years ago you would have been happy to turn a blind eye to Nazi Germany's activities in Europe. Afterall, it had nothing to do with Australia right?

What's naive is believing that politics is black and white, with the shining forces of good defeating those of evil and darkness, civilians cheering and happy bunnies flopping about...awwwww happy Iraqi bunnies!!

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" only works when the enemy of your enemy isn't also your enemy.

And this was nothing like D-Day. Saying it is is an insult to the veterans of D-Day. This was an illegal and immoral war.

As for university fees, the 25% HECS increase is relatively minor compared to the 400% HECS increase over the last 8 years due to Howard's mismanagement. I'm not talking about the 25% increase, because it's not counted in that 400%. For the poor suckers starting next year, the 25% increase makes it 500% of the '96 fees.

What a whinger. You don't get it do you? Education costs money. Why shouldn't students pay for some of their degree? The cost to students is minimal compared to the amount governments sink into universities.

Howard's mismanagement? Our universities are catering for more students than ever before. Funding has increased dramatically since 1996.

As I pointed out before, you will NEVER convince the 70% of Australians without a degree that they should give students a free ride.

...

For Smeagol...Go and look up the ALP policy on oil. Use a search engine if necessary! I am sure you are capable of doing your own research. I honestly cannot be bothered posting links which Smeagol will then claim are false (even if they are ALP links).

That you more than likely belong to the ALP and wouldn't surprise me if you are young labor or even Latham himself is reason enough for me not to take you seriously. So go and bother the Prime Minister or President Bush.

And this was nothing like D-Day. Saying it is is an insult to the veterans of D-Day. This was an illegal and immoral war.

Actually, Ive spoken to veterens before and they think people like you Filamai are an insult. You have no understanding of war or of suffering, tucked safely away in your home or commune.

All wars are immoral and illegal. Unfortunately, war is a necessary evil. God help Australia if you are ever called upon to defend our shores. The way you speak, it wouldn't surprise me if you collaborated with the invaders!

The fact that you don't care that Saddam killed 300,000 innocent people and financed terrorists shows what a heartless person you are.

Thank goodness Australians are not like you. Maybe you should go and live in the Middle East. You seem to hate Australia so much.

Benicus, I am a taxpayer. I am paying for some of my degree outside of HECS, and I am in part paying for the degrees of my colleagues. I know education costs money. I'm the one who's a mercedes in debt because of it!

And those 70% of Australians can bloody well get an education too. It's not like they're excluded from it. Education is a human right.

Even full time workers who left highschool at yr10 can get a degree from open learning with a little effort.

Benicus, I am a taxpayer. I am paying for some of my degree outside of HECS, and I am in part paying for the degrees of my colleagues. I know education costs money. I'm the one who's a mercedes in debt because of it!

And those 70% of Australians can bloody well get an education too. It's not like they're excluded from it. Education is a human right.

Even full time workers who left highschool at yr10 can get a degree from open learning with a little effort.

You really are blind aren't you? Let me guess, your a 21 year old left wing activist on campus who has nothing better to do than complain about that mean, old, nasty John Howard who has helped reduce unemployment so you can get a JOB when you get out. I could be wrong, but that is highly doubtful!

Not everyone can get a degree. It would untimately devalue all degrees and push wages right down. That, and not everybody is cut out for university or even TAFE.

Education is a privelage, not a right. You seem to think society owes you a living. Well it doesn't. The sooner you come to this realisation, the better off you will be mentally.

And this was nothing like D-Day. Saying it is is an insult to the veterans of D-Day. This was an illegal and immoral war.

Actually, Ive spoken to veterens before and they think people like you Filamai are an insult. You have no understanding of war or of suffering, tucked safely away in your home or commune.

All wars are immoral and illegal. Unfortunately, war is a necessary evil. God help Australia if you are ever called upon to defend our shores. The way you speak, it wouldn't surprise me if you collaborated with the invaders!

The fact that you don't care that Saddam killed 300,000 innocent people and financed terrorists shows what a heartless person you are.

Thank goodness Australians are not like you. Maybe you should go and live in the Middle East. You seem to hate Australia so much.

Now that was dirty of you, Benicus. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you can't argue without resorting to baseless ad hominem, you should not argue at all.

No Filamai. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Australia is a great country and all you ever do in your posts is belittle Australians and our ancestors.

I am proud of the people who fought for our survival and am proud of those who continue to do so. You do quite the opposite.

Thank god Australians are NOT like you.

The only thing I don't like about the Howard government is that they've increased the cash base by about 100%, about the same percentage as the Hawke government. This is the reason why the economic boom has gone on for so long. As a result, we should see a recession, similar to the one experienced during the 1980's, by the end of the decade.

No Filamai. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Australia is a great country and all you ever do in your posts is belittle Australians and our ancestors.

I am proud of the people who fought for our survival and am proud of those who continue to do so. You do quite the opposite.

Thank god Australians are NOT like you.

Benicus, I am proud of my heritage and my country. I have never belittled those who died to protect it, and I fully support our soldiers in Iraq, even if I know they should never have been sent there.

Now, calm the hell down and maybe if you think you can argue with some degree of civility, we will continue.

No Filamai. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Australia is a great country and all you ever do in your posts is belittle Australians and our ancestors.

I am proud of the people who fought for our survival and am proud of those who continue to do so. You do quite the opposite.

Thank god Australians are NOT like you.

Benicus, I am proud of my heritage and my country. I have never belittled those who died to protect it, and I fully support our soldiers in Iraq, even if I know they should never have been sent there.

Now, calm the hell down and maybe if you think you can argue with some degree of civility, we will continue.

Filamai...I believe that you need to take a break. Your blatant hatred of Australia and Australians is offensive and I certainly question whether or not you actually live in Australia or if you were even born here.

You disgust me. I am certain if the men who fought and died in the many wars to protect our sovereignty and make the world safer for all could hear you, they would turn in their graves!

Shame on you.

I shall type this very carefully, using simple words so that you may understand.

If you do not stop this pathetic flaming, you will get deleted, and I do not want that.

I shall type this very carefully, using simple words so that you may understand.

If you do not stop this pathetic flaming, you will get deleted, and I do not want that.

I am not flaming. But I have 10 grievences ready for MOD intervention regarding you and Smeagol.

Please debate civily and do not resort to harassment.

Lord Pheonix was not flaming he was calling a spade a spade. If you detest so much about our country then what are you doing here?

I am proud of my country, I am proud of those that have fought for it and those that have sacrificed their lives for this country and I am proud of my ancestors who helped make this country great.

I too am sick and tired of pampered uni students whining about what an evil country Australia is. It is complete crap. Australia commits itself overseas to help other nations rebuild and move on after tyrannical governments have ravaged these nations. It is something we should be proud of. If you want a tertiary education, pay for it. I have almost paid mine off and have no qualms about doing so. I received an education and paying for it is fair enough.

As far as the Iraqi bunnies hopping around, noone is that delusional that it is a wonderland in Iraq but it is making progress. I assume you have not bothered visiting the Iraq the Model website because it might tell you something you do not want to hear.

The war on terrorism may not seem like D-Day today but in 60 years time who knows how it will be looked upon. Time gives perspective because the final result is known. A world without terrorism is a world worth fighting for.

I am also amused at the line about a "illegal and immoral war". Your left-wing buddies will tell you no war is a moral or legal war...I guess the Nazis would have been free to help themselves to Europe had they got their way.

Tygaland: I love Australia. I always have and always will. I have not said a thing that could remotely be construed as hating Australia or our heritage.

Benicus lost the argument, and lost his temper, and resorted to an outburst of pathetic, baseless flaming. A bit of civility is not too much to ask.

Tygaland: I love Australia. I always have and always will. I have not said a thing that could remotely be construed as hating Australia or our heritage.

Benicus lost the argument, and lost his temper, and resorted to an outburst of pathetic, baseless flaming. A bit of civility is not too much to ask.

What argument? There is an argument here? Filamai you are inventing situations which do not exist.

Tygaland: I love Australia. I always have and always will. I have not said a thing that could remotely be construed as hating Australia or our heritage.

Benicus lost the argument, and lost his temper, and resorted to an outburst of pathetic, baseless flaming. A bit of civility is not too much to ask.

What argument? There is an argument here? Filamai you are inventing situations which do not exist.

Your faming here Filamai is hardly civil. It is typical of the cultural left to resort to "oh you troll/flamer/spammer whenever they are cornered. If someone disagrees they are "hostile" or "extreme". Sad aye. You prove time and time again that you hate Australia.

Then move out. You won't be missed with that attitude. Society does not owe you a living.

Benicus, there -was- a civil debate going on until you resorted to insults. You destroyed it.

[Edit: Nice stealthedit Benicus. Modalert!]

Tygaland: I love Australia. I always have and always will. I have not said a thing that could remotely be construed as hating Australia or our heritage.

Benicus lost the argument, and lost his temper, and resorted to an outburst of pathetic, baseless flaming. A bit of civility is not too much to ask.

What argument? There is an argument here? Filamai you are inventing situations which do not exist.

Your faming here Filamai is hardly civil. It is typical of the cultural left to resort to "oh you troll/flamer/spammer whenever they are cornered. If someone disagrees they are "hostile" or "extreme". Sad aye. You prove time and time again that you hate Australia.

Then move out. You won't be missed with that attitude. Society does not owe you a living.

Benicus, there -was- a civil debate going on until you resorted to insults. You destroyed it.

[Edit: Nice stealthedit Benicus. Modalert!]

Filamai...what you have written is not what I wrote. Kindly remove it or I shall seek moderator intervention.

Tygaland: I love Australia. I always have and always will. I have not said a thing that could remotely be construed as hating Australia or our heritage.

Benicus lost the argument, and lost his temper, and resorted to an outburst of pathetic, baseless flaming. A bit of civility is not too much to ask.

What argument? There is an argument here? Filamai you are inventing situations which do not exist.

Your faming here Filamai is hardly civil. It is typical of the cultural left to resort to "oh you troll/flamer/spammer whenever they are cornered. If someone disagrees they are "hostile" or "extreme". Sad aye. You prove time and time again that you hate Australia.

Then move out. You won't be missed with that attitude. Society does not owe you a living.

Benicus, there -was- a civil debate going on until you resorted to insults. You destroyed it.

[Edit: Nice stealthedit Benicus. Modalert!]

Filamai...what you have written is not what I wrote. Kindly remove it or I shall seek moderator intervention.

ROFLMAO

too late.

And what was civil with Smeagol calling me every name under the sun? I think you need to get your facts before going on the defensive Filamai.

Even pre-edit there was no flaming there just his opinion and nothing more. In other threads I have been labelled a white supremacist and racist to name a few. That would be flaming in my opinion but I let it slide because they are just making themselves look stupid.
People discuss emotive topics here so the debate becomes robust at times but it is hardly a situation to go running to the mods.

Just a temporary lock while I wade through this and see if the complaint in Moderation requires action.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Lord Pheonix Benicius, you are officially warned for repeated flamebait.

I am now unlocking this so that the debate can continue.

http://www.bigwig.net/~bbw10606/pwned.gif
Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

And what was civil with Smeagol calling me every name under the sun? I think you need to get your facts before going on the defensive Filamai.

If you have a complaint, beyond the fact that I challenge you to provide some evidence for your assertions, please feel free to raise the matter with the Moderators.

I have not called you any names, merely, continually, requested that you find some means to back your statements.

I again ask you to provide any form of evidence.

I am afraid Smeagol that a nasty Telegram sent to me just moments ago dermanded that I refrain from making political comments here. Sorry, but I am unable to entertain your request.

Good bye.

I am afraid Smeagol that a nasty Telegram sent to me just moments ago dermanded that I refrain from making political comments here. Sorry, but I am unable to entertain your request.

Good bye.

Please explain.

My understanding is that you were requested by a moderator to not engage in flaming.

That does not mean you cannot post, or reply.

I am afraid Smeagol that a nasty Telegram sent to me just moments ago dermanded that I refrain from making political comments here. Sorry, but I am unable to entertain your request.

Good bye.

Please explain.

My understanding is that you were requested by a moderator to not engage in flaming.

That does not mean you cannot post, or reply.

Sorry, I am not allowed. Simple as that. How boring this is going to be.

I am afraid Smeagol that a nasty Telegram sent to me just moments ago dermanded that I refrain from making political comments here. Sorry, but I am unable to entertain your request.

Good bye.

Please explain.

My understanding is that you were requested by a moderator to not engage in flaming.

That does not mean you cannot post, or reply.

Sorry, I am not allowed. Simple as that. How boring this is going to be.

I find that difficult to believe.

Please provide the text sent to you.

I would defend anyone's right to express themselves, within the normal rules of the forum.

Interesting how your telegram inbox contains no such message. :?

Looks like if you disagree with the left-wing propaganda you get deleted. Sure makes for great debates. If you can't beat them delete them.

Seems its fine to be labelled racist or a white supremacist but you can't question people about their left-wing beliefs. A shame, I thought this was for discussions...seems I was wrong.

No, you get deleted for lying about what Mods are supposed to have done.

Looks like if you disagree with the left-wing propaganda you get deleted. Sure makes for great debates. If you can't beat them delete them.

Seems its fine to be labelled racist or a white supremacist but you can't question people about their left-wing beliefs. A shame, I thought this was for discussions...seems I was wrong.

Typical paranoia.

Looks like if you disagree with the left-wing propaganda you get deleted. Sure makes for great debates. If you can't beat them delete them.

Seems its fine to be labelled racist or a white supremacist but you can't question people about their left-wing beliefs. A shame, I thought this was for discussions...seems I was wrong.

The comments are on record.

The thread in moderation still exists.

The thread asking why LPB was deleted still exists.

You can either believe the facts, or your own conspiracy theory.

Seems like you're still wrong.

The "flame-baiting" was at the very most minor and nothin worse than has been levelled at me in other threads. I choose to ignore it, I guess others are more sensitive. He was warned, fair enough.

As far as being deleted for lying about what the mods did. That is a joke surely.

Smeagol, you statement about facts and conspiracy theories is quite amusing considering your stance on other issues.

The "flame-baiting" was at the very most minor and nothin worse than has been levelled at me in other threads. I choose to ignore it, I guess others are more sensitive. He was warned, fair enough.

As far as being deleted for lying about what the mods did. That is a joke surely.

Smeagol, you statement about facts and conspiracy theories is quite amusing considering your stance on other issues.

Which is the reason I am always prepared to quote sources if questioned.

Shame others never respond to requests to back up their statements.

Always pleased to provide amusement to the masses.

Right... :wink:

I am back!

Smeagol...take a read of the environment policy here:

http://www.alp.org.au/policy/platform2004/index.html

And this one from the government on oil...

http://www.liberal.org.au/documents/ACFC387.pdf

[This is Benicius - which you probably guessed. I created this nation long ago on advice from a friend who used to play on NS that as a conservative I would likely be deleted at some time. Rather than start from scratch, I should create a second nation in the event that such a tragedy should occur]

Let the debate continue...

Right... :wink:

I am back!

Smeagol...take a read of the environment policy here:

http://www.alp.org.au/policy/platform2004/index.html

And this one from the government on oil...

http://www.liberal.org.au/documents/ACFC387.pdf

[This is Benicius - which you probably guessed. I created this nation long ago on advice from a friend who used to play on NS that as a conservative I would likely be deleted at some time. Rather than start from scratch, I should create a second nation in the event that such a tragedy should occur]

Let the debate continue...

Good.

Let the debate continue then.

You, in a previous incarnation, quoted the price of $3.00 per litre for fuel under a Latham Government.

I have repeatedly asked you to source such an exact figure.

I ask you to do so again.

I expect, of course, that you will complain to the moderators that you are being "harrassed" and that I should be banned from posting in "your" thread.

Or that you will ignore a very straightforward question.

Or that I shall get a reply like "you should know".

But, in a triumph of hope over experience, I will ask you to justify your quoted figure.

I just gave you the links Smeagol. You can find the truth on those two sites. Of course, I am not one who believes everything posted on the internet, but for the benefit of those who want sites there they are.

I just gave you the links Smeagol. You can find the truth on those two sites. Of course, I am not one who believes everything posted on the internet, but for the benefit of those who want sites there they are.

Yes, what I expected.

Invent statistics which you cannot defend. I have seen this "tactic" from you in many threads.

Guess what ?

If Howard gets re-elected, the price of fuel will be $4.00 per litre!

If you wish to invent statistics, so can anyone.

However, I can only really reveal that the price of petrol will be determined by the supply and demand, exactly the same as it is now.

Those wishing to invent statistics can have the realm of fantasy to themselves.

There are those capable of logical and informed debate.

And there are trolls who rely on inventing statistics.

Once again...

Smeagol...take a read of the ALP's environment policy here:

http://www.alp.org.au/policy/platform2004/index.html

And this one from the government on how the price of oil shall be $3/L under Latham...

http://www.liberal.org.au/documents/ACFC387.pdf

You are wasting your time, Smeagol does not read your posts and repeats the same questions ad nauseum.

You are wasting your time, Smeagol does not read your posts and repeats the same questions ad nauseum.

I've noticed.

You are wasting your time, Smeagol does not read your posts and repeats the same questions ad nauseum.

I've noticed.

I read the posts.

I read the sites listed as links.

Nowhere do I find the justification for Thuthmose III (previously self -appointed Lord Phoenix Benecius) ludicrous claims.

This, of course, is for the simple reason that his claim is based on nothing other than his own flight of fancy.

As I said, there are those who can argue based on fact, and those who rely on their own fiction.

If this poster is challenged, he repeatedly evades the question, makes a personal flaming attack on his questioner, or complains to the Mods that he is being "harrassed".

Of course, if the Mods act against him, it is a huge "conspiracy".

Of course, more people are now seeing through this posters tricks and trolls,

Smeagol...please navigate through both those sites. There is no way you could have read the ALP one in such a short time (when you first posted in reply) and does your dismissal of the second link mean you believe the government has lied in its press release?

Smeagol...please navigate through both those sites. There is no way you could have read the ALP one in such a short time (when you first posted in reply) and does your dismissal of the second link mean you believe the government has lied in its press release?

So are you now admitting that your figure is based on nothing more than a Liberal party press release?

Well, you cannot ask for a much more un-biased and independent source than that can you?

Just who do you believe you are fooling?

Other than yourself, that is.

Its not as if Howard or his ministers are famed for their honesty, quite the opposite.

I'll make it really simple for you this time:

Is your only source a Liberal party press release? Because that is the only source I have seen that quotes the $3.00 per litre figure.

Yes or no?

Here is the link to the policy document introduced by Carmen Lawrence in May:

http://www.stcwa.org.au/papers/STCpolicy04Oilprf.pdf

it clearly backs up the claims made by Thuthmose III that Labor plans to increase fuel costs to European levels which are ~$3 per litre. The difference in price would be an increase in excise.

Here is the link to the policy document introduced by Carmen Lawrence in May:

http://www.stcwa.org.au/papers/STCpolicy04Oilprf.pdf

it clearly backs up the claims made by Thuthmose III that Labor plans to increase fuel costs to European levels which are ~$3 per litre. The difference in price would be an increase in excise.

Smeagol, you will notice that the Press Release handed down by the Government (Minister representing the country, not a Party) did mention the ALP policy.

An internet search on Google would have taken you to the above link graciously posted by Tygaland.

With 3 separate sources confirming what I have said, are you still going to dismiss the facts?

Here is the link to the policy document introduced by Carmen Lawrence in May:

http://www.stcwa.org.au/papers/STCpolicy04Oilprf.pdf

it clearly backs up the claims made by Thuthmose III that Labor plans to increase fuel costs to European levels which are ~$3 per litre. The difference in price would be an increase in excise.

Check your facts.

That is a WA government paper which merely discusses the effects of declining oil supply in that state, it makes absolutely no references to any price level.

Are you another clone of the foolish Lord Pheonix?

Here is the link to the policy document introduced by Carmen Lawrence in May:

http://www.stcwa.org.au/papers/STCpolicy04Oilprf.pdf

it clearly backs up the claims made by Thuthmose III that Labor plans to increase fuel costs to European levels which are ~$3 per litre. The difference in price would be an increase in excise.

Check your facts.

That is a WA government paper which merely discusses the effects of declining oil supply in that state, it makes absolutely no references to any price level.

I now quote from the paper (page 3)...

"The Sustainable Transport Coalition advocates these priorities for change:

• Charging the real costs of transport and oil, including the lost opportunity costs for future generations of our profligate use of short-lived resources."

...and on page 4

"A national no-fault road injury compensation scheme would be far more equitable and effective than the various separate state-based third party schemes. This could also be far more easily funded from an increase in Federal fuel excise duty"

Increase the "federal fuel excise duty" being the key aspect.

If we were to charge the "real costs" (page 3) then this would result in the $3/L scenario the government has warned Australians of in their Press Release.

[Note: real costs include costs include both consumption and environmental]

Vote Green - and waste a vote. Vote Labor and screw Australia. VoteLiberal/National and make Australia Great. Australian Labor Party _ " hey we don;t care about local issues, this is the candidate, the Party has decided!! I know he is an aging rocker but we- the party have decided - you will vote for him!!!

Anyone who is under 30 and is not a socialist has no heart. Anyone who is over 30 and is still a socialist has no brains.

Yeah go on flame me - in the words from Gone with the Wind " Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"

Anyone who is under 30 and is not a socialist has no heart. Anyone who is over 30 and is still a socialist has no brains.

We have something similar in the U.S.

"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a cynic. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a fool."

Interesting to read this morning that the aging rockstar now approves of:

Mandatory detention of refugees
A new pulp mill for Tasmania
the US-Australia alliance; and
the continued presence of Pine Gap and other US bases.

A real man of his convictions.

Here is the link to the policy document introduced by Carmen Lawrence in May:

http://www.stcwa.org.au/papers/STCpolicy04Oilprf.pdf

it clearly backs up the claims made by Thuthmose III that Labor plans to increase fuel costs to European levels which are ~$3 per litre. The difference in price would be an increase in excise.

Check your facts.

That is a WA government paper which merely discusses the effects of declining oil supply in that state, it makes absolutely no references to any price level.

I now quote from the paper (page 3)...

"The Sustainable Transport Coalition advocates these priorities for change:

• Charging the real costs of transport and oil, including the lost opportunity costs for future generations of our profligate use of short-lived resources."

...and on page 4

"A national no-fault road injury compensation scheme would be far more equitable and effective than the various separate state-based third party schemes. This could also be far more easily funded from an increase in Federal fuel excise duty"

Increase the "federal fuel excise duty" being the key aspect.

If we were to charge the "real costs" (page 3) then this would result in the $3/L scenario the government has warned Australians of in their Press Release.

[Note: real costs include costs include both consumption and environmental]

Your only real source for the figure is from a Liberal party press release.

You have been deleted twice for flaming.

You reappear by activating one of your many puppets.

You constantly refuse to answer questions, and if pressed to do so, complain to the Moderators that you are being "harrassed".

If these same Moderators rule against you, you then claim some form of conspiracy.

Do you think you have any credibility at all?

He has answered your question many times over. If you cannot understand it by now you never will.

Whatever puppets he appears as makes no difference to the fact he has supplied you with the source of his information. Your question has been answered.

Interesting to read this morning that the aging rockstar now approves of:

Mandatory detention of refugees
A new pulp mill for Tasmania
the US-Australia alliance; and
the continued presence of Pine Gap and other US bases.

A real man of his convictions.

Well...this is just part of Labor's "flip-flop" agenda. I am just waiting for Latham to come out against Trade Unions! :lol:

Interesting to read this morning that the aging rockstar now approves of:

Mandatory detention of refugees
A new pulp mill for Tasmania
the US-Australia alliance; and
the continued presence of Pine Gap and other US bases.

A real man of his convictions.

Well...this is just part of Labor's "flip-flop" agenda. I am just waiting for Latham to come out against Trade Unions! :lol:

No wonder you like Howard.

Your honesty and is are alike.

Your record and his are alike.

Your credibilty and his are alike.

Kindly continue to post your Liberal propaganda, it will only serve to ensure a Latham victory.

Kindly continue to post your Liberal propaganda, it will only serve to ensure a Latham victory.

Last I checked, the federal election is decided at polling booths set at local schools and community centres.

Last I checked, the fate of John Howard did not lie in the hands of NationStates.

Last I checked, Mark Latham is falling to pieces over his flip-flop agenda.

[last check 2 minutes ago :D ]

Where have we been dishonest? You asked for the source of Thuthmose III's information. He gave it to you. What was posted about Garrett was on the front page of the Herald Sun here in Melbourne along with an interview where he confirmed his new stance(?).

Last I checked, the federal election is decided at polling booths set at local schools and community centres.


Might want to pass this info on to Mr.Garrett...he has had trouble finding polling booths recently.

Last I checked, the federal election is decided at polling booths set at local schools and community centres.


Might want to pass this info on to Mr.Garrett...he has had trouble finding polling booths recently.


:lol: Yes, I just find his failure to vote - despite being a so-called political activist - incredibly ironic.

The fact that he joined the ALP also goes a long way to show what kind of Party it is. What kind of political party invites a non-voter to run for federal parliament? Surely not a party working in the nation's best interest.

I wonder where Mr Garett would stand on Australia purchasing nuclear submarines?

1. They are cleaner than desiel-electric.

and...

2. They are more fuel efficient than our current subs.

Of course...we want to get off oil, yet at the same time those who advocate alternatives snub nuclear power (for ships). What then, does our navy run on?

(envisions millions of little energiser bunnies sweating it out in the hulls of RAN vessels, peddling their little hearts out to drive the massive turbines that turn the screw propellor)

Here is an article from todays paper that shows Mr.Garrett's somewhat vague grasp of some of his policies.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9808674%255E25717,00.html

Here is an article from todays paper that shows Mr.Garrett's somewhat vague grasp of some of his policies.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9808674%255E25717,00.html

I rather like that article. You know, the way Mr Garrett dismisses facts and rants and raves like a 1960's hippy, reminds me of someone we know aye Tygaland :wink:

Yes, he actually does not know why he supports causes, he just does. Forget the facts, forget the statistics that prove he is wrong. If you fight the good fight you do not need facts on your side!!

Yes, he actually does not know why he supports causes, he just does. Forget the facts, forget the statistics that prove he is wrong. If you fight the good fight you do not need facts on your side!!

*claps* someone thinks

can someone tell me what happened to Lord Pheonix Benicius
well if he reads this, i would love to discuss further, but not on ns
on http://fua.board.dk3.com/2/index.php

I am still here Animal. What is it you wish to discuss?

Yes, he actually does not know why he supports causes, he just does. Forget the facts, forget the statistics that prove he is wrong. If you fight the good fight you do not need facts on your side!!

Actually, in the Weekend Australian there was a public letter where the author insinuates US census statistics have been tampered with because they show Americans were better off under Ronald Reagan than Carter.

So according to this way of thinking...if statistics go against your argument...somone must have tampered with them!!! :lol:

Actually, in the Weekend Australian there was a public letter where the author insinuates US census statistics have been tampered with because they show Americans were better off under Ronald Reagan than Carter.

So according to this way of thinking...if statistics go against your argument...somone must have tampered with them!!! :lol:

A timehonoured use of the media, and one of the most widely accepted forms of dishonesty... statistics. 87% of statistics are made up on the spot... including that one.

And, in all honesty, 1 figure speaks for all of them. Labor, interest rates approx. 16%. Coalition, 6%. That's a huge amount of money back into the pockets of the taxpayers.