NationStates Jolt Archive

I have studied Isshin-Ryu (Whole Hearted) Karate for just over 10 years (started on April 20, 1994). I spend, on average, 5 hours a week in the dojo (Many more hours of independent study). I earned my shodan (First degree black belt) in 2001 and have been assist teaching classes since then. I lead the class through drills, preside over kumite (sparring) matches, check katas (forms), etc. I also, despite my better wishes, teach new moves to the younger students. Here's where the bastardization comes in.

There's a student in one of the classes (about 10 years old) and he tries hard. He puts effort into his katas, he shows up to every class, he's well behaved (for a 10 year old), and he listens in class. But he is horrible. Not just horrible compared to everything (including the adults), he's horrible even on his own level. The other 10 year olds (even the younger ones and people of lower rank) are way beyond him. He doesn't even realise he's bad, I get the impression that he thinks he's beyond everybody else (okay, I think everybody, including me, thinks that).

His katas, which he does with this huge and superior grin on his face, aren't even the actual katas. He doesn't even do the moves. He makes bizarre movements with his arms and legs, occassionally shifts his legs, and kias occassionally. I see kids in the Ninja Rangers (The kids class for the 4 & 5 year olds who aren't yet ready for actual karate, but still want to do something) perform better than him, and they usually haven't even learned past the basics. I swear, it's just sad.

Yet he doesn't know this, and I can't tell him this. I don't want to hurt his feelings (he's a little kid who tries hard), I don't want to upset his parents (who wouldn't be upset if their kids teacher says "You're son is failing"), and I don't want to anger my teacher (it's a major insult to tell a teacher that his student is failing). So, what do I do? I grin and bear it. I teach him new moves. I say "good job!" whenever he does something. I ignore the blatant mistakes he makes, and I ignore the superior look on his face when he thinks he's shown up everybody else. I, a person who loves karate with all my heart, am forced to support and expand the most corrupted source of knowledge I have ever found. Pity me.

For just ten bucks I can tell that kid's parents that he's failing. I'm going to be a 'Professional Bearer of Bad News' when I grow up.

I believe in the principle of "The only thing belts are good for, is to hold your pants up."

But that aside...

Sounds like this student needs more attention....

when you see him improperly perform a kata.....go over to him, and make sure he gets it right.


"There are no bad students....only bad teachers."

Wow, I am going to seem like such a jackass after this.

I do often work at correcting his kata (before we are allowed to add on a move we have to review what he knows so far and see if he's ready), the problem is that it is all wrong. All of it. It's often just me and my teacher leading a class of 10 people, and the class lasts for an hour. We need to check each student, in addition to the usual practicing, so we only have time for a bare few minutes of individual activity (I have been pushing for smaller classes, longer classes, and more teachers). It would take at least an hour of personal attention to fix even one kata, and he knows six. I am actually surprised at how he got this far and that he wasn't corrected from the very beginning (I only started leading his class quite recently).

I just don't see a solution

Wow, I am going to seem like such a jackass after this.

I do often work at correcting his kata (before we are allowed to add on a move we have to review what he knows so far and see if he's ready), the problem is that it is all wrong. All of it. It's often just me and my teacher leading a class of 10 people, and the class lasts for an hour. We need to check each student, in addition to the usual practicing, so we only have time for a bare few minutes of individual activity (I have been pushing for smaller classes, longer classes, and more teachers). It would take at least an hour of personal attention to fix even one kata, and he knows six. I am actually surprised at how he got this far and that he wasn't corrected from the very beginning (I only started leading his class quite recently).

I just don't see a solution

Well..as I say, Its not his fault.....its the one who allowed to him to learn incorrectly.
I can see that this troubles you, and that means you have a conscience....thats good.

Why not volunteer to give him some tutoring out of class?

This way....you can "re-train" and correct much of what hes doing wrong.

In three two hour lessons......you can have him where he needs to be.

That's another thing I'm confused about, I don't see how he could learn this much. My teacher would have stopped adding on new moves until he saw the problems and had corrected them. I wouldn't have taught him this much (expecially since I didn't start teaching him until recently), and I don't know anybody else who would. It boggles me.

Anyway, I'm not allowed to tutor him. The insurance wont cover it. I'm not a licensed instructor (only an assistant), I don't have access to the dojo when school is closed, and let's face it, what parent would trust their kid to be alone a teenager who they've never even met?

How about you actually Teach him fool. You shouldnt have gotten in this situation in the first place. You should have called him on it Ages ago. Its up to you to figure out how to break it to him.

Make sure he understands he needs to practice at home everyday and make sure He actually knows what He's practicing is correct.

...and I don't want to anger my teacher (it's a major insult to tell a teacher that his student is failing).

Could oyu elaborate on this, please?

Also, is there a way to sugar-coat this? "Sensai [or whatever the title is], I believe that one of our students may benefit from special assistance."

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

That's another thing I'm confused about, I don't see how he could learn this much. My teacher would have stopped adding on new moves until he saw the problems and had corrected them. I wouldn't have taught him this much (expecially since I didn't start teaching him until recently), and I don't know anybody else who would. It boggles me.

Anyway, I'm not allowed to tutor him. The insurance wont cover it. I'm not a licensed instructor (only an assistant), I don't have access to the dojo when school is closed, and let's face it, what parent would trust their kid to be alone a teenager who they've never even met?

I saw much of the same actions from a certain Kung-Fu master......
He started to worry less and less about his integrity...and more and more about his students paying thier bills.

Sounds like a rotten little shit. Smack him a couple times and call him a bitch, he might learn quicker so that he couls whoop your ass. It works

well... I know just what you're talkin about...I helped teach for about a year (before my father became ill and i no longer had the time to help out at the dojo) and we had a rather simple solution to this sort of thing. We kept the really aweful kids with the white belts and kept drilling them in. Occassionally they're moved up a belt, but very rarely. Yes, this seems horrible to most martial artists; promoting those that are unworthy, but now a days it takes alot of money to run a dojo. taxes, electricity, heat, water, equipment, insurance and so forth. So, little Jonny, even though he sucks, is promoted, and mommy and daddy, who dont know shit about karate think he's doing great. Now, his money keeps the dojo afloat, and the kids with actualy potentail are able to continue their studies and learn none the less. thats why its key to telling this kid that sucks he's pretty good, and to give him a new belt every now and then. Dont forget, its not what belt you wear, its how you apply what you learn.

well... I know just what you're talkin about...I helped teach for about a year (before my father became ill and i no longer had the time to help out at the dojo) and we had a rather simple solution to this sort of thing. We kept the really aweful kids with the white belts and kept drilling them in. Occassionally they're moved up a belt, but very rarely. Yes, this seems horrible to most martial artists; promoting those that are unworthy, but now a days it takes alot of money to run a dojo. taxes, electricity, heat, water, equipment, insurance and so forth. So, little Jonny, even though he sucks, is promoted, and mommy and daddy, who dont know shit about karate think he's doing great. Now, his money keeps the dojo afloat, and the kids with actualy potentail are able to continue their studies and learn none the less. thats why its key to telling this kid that sucks he's pretty good, and to give him a new belt every now and then. Dont forget, its not what belt you wear, its how you apply what you learn.


See what I mean?

and the first time Little Johnny gets into trouble, and has to defend himself..and gets hurt....hes going to be wondering "why?"

See what I mean?

and the first time Little Johnny gets into trouble, and has to defend himself..and gets hurt....hes going to be wondering "why?"

hey, thats the kids problem. Karate isnt something you're just borne with...well. maybe if you're Jet Li, but still. Its discipline and practice. If the kid doesnt practice at home and work to correct his mistake, then he should get his ass kicked. besides, one of the main points of martial arts is to AVOID confrontation, so whats the little idiot doin in the fight anyways! he failed lesson one!!

How about you actually Teach him fool. You shouldnt have gotten in this situation in the first place. You should have called him on it Ages ago. Its up to you to figure out how to break it to him.

In case you didn't read my previous posts, I just started teaching him.

Cogitation, I just feel that it's wrong to say "You're failing at your job." Essentially, a failing student means that the teacher is failing. I don't see how I could sugercoat it.

Eridanus, he's 10 (if even that old). I'm 18. Wake up.

The Crazy Karate Guy, if you haven't been reading, he thinks he does do well. He does practice at home, he does work hard. It's just that practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Lets face it. Karate is crap to begin with. You are made to do things over and over again without questioning it. You are never taught what to do if an attack goes wrong. It isn't 'self-defence'. It's 'beat the living crap out of anything that moves' and it doesn't even do it well. Karate is a horrible style. Attacks that don't flow and can be easily blocked, so much effort put into one punch and horrible, horrible techniques. It's an external style that takes so much out of you, by the time you're fifty you will need a wheelchair to get around. The same goes with Tae Kwon Do except that if you move with about a foot distance between that person and you, you've taken away about 80% of their attacks. So if that kid is as horrible as you say he is, then he has as much chance of 'defending' himself as a goldfish in a bucketfull of pirhanna.

Oh and


Karate isnt something you're just borne with...well. maybe if you're Jet Li, but still.

Jet Li does Wushu. That's a more energetic, flashier form of Shaolin Long Fist. There's a difference between that and Karate.

See what I mean?

and the first time Little Johnny gets into trouble, and has to defend himself..and gets hurt....hes going to be wondering "why?"

hey, thats the kids problem. Karate isnt something you're just borne with...well. maybe if you're Jet Li, but still. Its discipline and practice. If the kid doesnt practice at home and work to correct his mistake, then he should get his ass kicked. besides, one of the main points of martial arts is to AVOID confrontation, so whats the little idiot doin in the fight anyways! he failed lesson one!!

You have no business teaching martial arts to anyone.

Kokusbitus, I doubt you have the tiniest idea what you're talking about.

The Crazy Karate Guy, if you haven't been reading, he thinks he does do well. He does practice at home, he does work hard. It's just that practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
yes, i have been reading, what you dont get is that not every student is going to be bruce lee. just let the kid slide, whats it to you anyways? people offer advice and opinions, but nothing works. what do you want to do? toss the kid out? and what kind of sensi do you have if this kid is THAT bad...maybe you should try another dojo or style?

Klonor,
How could you phrase it to your master, that wouldnt be an insult?

See what I mean?

and the first time Little Johnny gets into trouble, and has to defend himself..and gets hurt....hes going to be wondering "why?"

hey, thats the kids problem. Karate isnt something you're just borne with...well. maybe if you're Jet Li, but still. Its discipline and practice. If the kid doesnt practice at home and work to correct his mistake, then he should get his ass kicked. besides, one of the main points of martial arts is to AVOID confrontation, so whats the little idiot doin in the fight anyways! he failed lesson one!!

You have no business teaching martial arts to anyone.

and why is that? because i believe you should avoid conflict, or because i feel its your own responsibility to work on your technique once you've been shown how to do it right?

So, you think I should just abandon him? BackwoodsSquatches is right, you have no business teaching karate.

BackwoodsSquatches wrote:

Karate isnt something you're just borne with...well. maybe if you're Jet Li, but still.

HEY!

I didnt write that!

I knew better!

Klonor,
How could you phrase it to your master, that wouldnt be an insult?

That's just it, I can't think of any way. No matter how I phrase it, it comes down to "Your student is bad, and that means you're teaching him badly." I don't mean that, but that's how it would come out as.

my apoligies, i was using karate as a blanket term for martial arts. geez...and yes abandon him if you're not allowed to do anything...you dont seem to be trying to do anything anyways. go to your sensi and say "sir, i'm really concerned about little timmy, he doesnt seem to be..." and then say what the problem is.

See what I mean?

and the first time Little Johnny gets into trouble, and has to defend himself..and gets hurt....hes going to be wondering "why?"

hey, thats the kids problem. Karate isnt something you're just borne with...well. maybe if you're Jet Li, but still. Its discipline and practice. If the kid doesnt practice at home and work to correct his mistake, then he should get his ass kicked. besides, one of the main points of martial arts is to AVOID confrontation, so whats the little idiot doin in the fight anyways! he failed lesson one!!


You have no business teaching martial arts to anyone.

and why is that? because i believe you should avoid conflict, or because i feel its your own responsibility to work on your technique once you've been shown how to do it right?

No.

Becuase you feel that its HIS fault for learning incorrectly, and that your obviously more concerned about the money issue, that t eaching your art.

The kid is there to learn self defence..and if he isnt....then its becuase he was allowed to learn it incorrectly.


Klonor.....You have a good head it seems, how can you tell your master in such a way that thisd student is behind the point where he should be?

my apoligies, i was using karate as a blanket term for martial arts. geez...and yes abandon him if you're not allowed to do anything...you dont seem to be trying to do anything anyways. go to your sensi and say "sir, i'm really concerned about little timmy, he doesnt seem to be..." and then say what the problem is.

So, you think that telling (and showing) him the correct moves and explaining what they mean is doing nothing?

well i figured out the real difference between you guys and myself...you care, i dont. screw the kid, i hope he gets his head smashed. I could care less about how you teach, what style you know, what Jet Li knows, and whether me using karate as a blanket term offends you. I've never met more up tight people than you guys, geez. chill out, its one student, and its the sensi's problem, not some assistant instructors.

Klonor,
How could you phrase it to your master, that wouldnt be an insult?

That's just it, I can't think of any way. No matter how I phrase it, it comes down to "Your student is bad, and that means you're teaching him badly." I don't mean that, but that's how it would come out as.

well i figured out the real difference between you guys and myself...you care, i dont. screw the kid, i hope he gets his head smashed. I could care less about how you teach, what style you know, what Jet Li knows, and whether me using karate as a blanket term offends you. I've never met more up tight people than you guys, geez. chill out, its one student, and its the sensi's problem, not some assistant instructors.

and this is why I say you have no business teaching martial arts.

well i figured out the real difference between you guys and myself...you care, i dont. screw the kid, i hope he gets his head smashed. I could care less about how you teach, what style you know, what Jet Li knows, and whether me using karate as a blanket term offends you. I've never met more up tight people than you guys, geez. chill out, its one student, and its the sensi's problem, not some assistant instructors.

So, you're wishing that a 10 year old kid gets a beating? I do not envy you in this life.

Klonor,
what belt does this kid have?

Im not too familair with your style......Im more of a Kung-Fu kinda guy...
But the philosophy is much the same.

You're good aren't you? Why don't you kill him and make it look like an accident? Have him demonstrate an attack on you and BAM his neck is snapped. Two birds one stone.

Klonor, think of it this way. By not telling your Sensai about the kid's problems you are lying to your Sensai. You are also lying to the kid. And the kid's parents. That is a great amount of dishonor for you to be spreading. It might be an insult to your Sensai to inform him of a failing student, but it is a greater dishonor to not bring it to his attention. I am sure your Sensai has faced this before. There are always struggling students, and as long as there are willing teachers, there is hope for the students.

Klonor,
How could you phrase it to your master, that wouldnt be an insult?

That's just it, I can't think of any way. No matter how I phrase it, it comes down to "Your student is bad, and that means you're teaching him badly." I don't mean that, but that's how it would come out as.

Is that as bad or worse than lying to your teacher? Because that's what you'd be doing if you just grinned and beared it.

[Edit: Whoa similar trains of thought]

Klonor, think of it this way. By not telling your Sensai about the kid's problems you are lying to your Sensai. You are also lying to the kid. And the kid's parents. That is a great amount of dishonor for you to be spreading. It might be an insult to your Sensai to inform him of a failing student, but it is a greater dishonor to not bring it to his attention. I am sure your Sensai has faced this before. There are always struggling students, and as long as there are willing teachers, there is hope for the students.

Oooooo!

Nice touch.

That might work!

Ther's two ways he can learn he's wrong, the easy way and the hard way. The hard way is when he tries to save a kitten from a streetgang the easy way is in the dojo. Tell him he's doing it wrong.

Galliam, ignoring what is horribly wrong with what you said, I wouldn't be good enough to do it anyway. Despite having a shodan, I don't think I'm worthy of it. I'm good, yes, but I'm nowhere near that good. I think he just gave it to me because I've shown up for seven years (which was how long I'd been going when I got it).

BackwoodsSquatches, he's a purple belt (midway up the ranks), but that's not really important. Despite the usual "belts don't matter" (which is really true at my school where you are practically promoted every six months regardless of skill) there's the fact that, at that age, they all work the same regardless of training.

Or maybe...call his parents and ask if they would mind if you came to thier house and gave him some pointers?

You're good aren't you? Why don't you kill him and make it look like an accident? Have him demonstrate an attack on you and BAM his neck is snapped. Two birds one stone.
:shock: Galliam, you are one sick guy. But you're so darn funnay! :lol:

Well then you need to take Him aside, deconstruct his technique and start again.

Kokusbitus, I doubt you have the tiniest idea what you're talking about.

Well I think that six years in kung fu practice does teach you certain things. I think having a look at many different martial arts does help to know what you're talking about. Here's an anology for you. A karate master challenge Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee beat him in about 15 seconds. And Bruce Lee is not even considered good in most kung fu circles. My opinion of karate is very low. Okunawa karate is different though. I do have a certain respect for it. But I have the same opinion of karate as I do about military training standards as well.

Or maybe...call his parents and ask if they would mind if you came to thier house and gave him some pointers?

This goes back to the parents trusting a teenager who they've never once met to be in physical contact with their son. If they're willing to do that I don't think I'd want to be alone in their house :wink:

Galliam, ignoring what is horribly wrong with what you said, I wouldn't be good enough to do it anyway. Despite having a shodan, I don't think I'm worthy of it. I'm good, yes, but I'm nowhere near that good. I think he just gave it to me because I've shown up for seven years (which was how long I'd been going when I got it).

BackwoodsSquatches, he's a purple belt (midway up the ranks), but that's not really important. Despite the usual "belts don't matter" (which is really true at my school where you are practically promoted every six months regardless of skill) there's the fact that, at that age, they all work the same regardless of training.

I see...

Im more familair with the "we dont wear colored belts..its all a matter of how many open hand forms you know."

Hmm...

The best tactic sounds like talking to your sensai.

Humbly....

and about five feet away.

and be prepared to block. 8)

Or maybe...call his parents and ask if they would mind if you came to thier house and gave him some pointers?

This goes back to the parents trusting a teenager who they've never once met to be in physical contact with their son. If they're willing to do that I don't think I'd want to be alone in their house :wink:

Hmm..

Yeah.
Good point.

I used to teach kids karate at the Boys and Girls Club as part of my upper belt training. I taught under-privleged kids and such, and the best thing for them, honestly, is that you don't give up on them.

I encourage you not give up on this kid. Just give him his time, and he will progress, horrible or not, he will get better if you give him the chance.

Kokusbitus, I doubt you have the tiniest idea what you're talking about.

Well I think that six years in kung fu practice does teach you certain things. I think having a look at many different martial arts does help to know what you're talking about. Here's an anology for you. A karate master challenge Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee beat him in about 15 seconds. And Bruce Lee is not even considered good in most kung fu circles. My opinion of karate is very low. Okunawa karate is different though. I do have a certain respect for it. But I have the same opinion of karate as I do about military training standards as well.

Two points: All Karate is Okinawan karate. All karate. If it's from Japan (not including Okinawa), or from China, or from Korea, then it's not karate (no matter what people call it). Karate was developed by the Okinawans as a defence against the invading Japanese since the Japanese were armed and the weaponless Okinawans needed to know how to combat them.

Second point: What does it matter if Bruce Lee beat a karate master? You're saying that one single karate master losing means that all of karate sucks? If you said that about a religion or ethnic group you'd be called a racist.

You're good aren't you? Why don't you kill him and make it look like an accident? Have him demonstrate an attack on you and BAM his neck is snapped. Two birds one stone.
:shock: Galliam, you are one sick guy. But you're so darn funnay! :lol:

Thank You, I try!

I sure wish someone would have taken me Aside and corrected my Technique earlier. Just start instructing him. You dont have to tell him his bad. Just show him what to do, dont even hint that he sucks. Put your hand on his wrists and guide him through exactly what he needs to do if nessicary. He will get discouraged. But you can smooth it over with words of encouragement. And with the extra attention he gets he should still reckon he is good and thus keep coming to lessons.

A karate master challenge Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee beat him in about 15 seconds. And Bruce Lee is not even considered good in most kung fu circles.

Heh This is becuase Lee taught at a time where it was very taboo to teach whites, and other non chinese.

He also started a bastard form ..."Jeet Kun Do"..it uses a lot from many different styles.

But the Oldest Living Grandmaster alive today......(who teaches in my town) ..says he knew Bruce Lee in Hong Kong...and says "He was a punk"

New Astrolia, I do do all that, it's just that time is the major constraint. Like I said, I have (at the most extreme) ten minutes a class to work with him. After watching him do his Katae I'm down to 5 minutes. That leaves me five minutes to correct all that I can, and that's usually only one or two moves. Each kata (except for Nai Hachi) has 50+ moves. I try, but until we get either less students per class, longer classes, or more teachers per class, I really don't think I can make much headway.

New Astrolia, I do do all that, it's just that time is the major constraint. Like I said, I have (at the most extreme) ten minutes a class to work with him. After watching him do his Katae I'm down to 5 minutes. That leaves me five minutes to correct all that I can, and that's usually only one or two moves. Each kata (except for Nai Hachi) has 50+ moves. I try, but until we get either less students per class, longer classes, or more teachers per class, I really don't think I can make much headway.

Maybe start small. Get him to work soley on the first part of the first kata. Correct him on it, and then have him practice what you corrected until the next lesson with the exclusion of all else. Then, if it has stuck, move on. If not keep working on the same small part until he gets it right. Would that work?

I understand what He means by his distatse for Karate.
It does have some weaknesses compared to many forms of Kung-Fu.
I personally find it too stiff and rigid.

But.....that being said.....

Most forms of Kung-Fu have thier weaknesses too.....

Not practical.

Very good against other martial artists.....not so effective against boxers, or brawlers.....

Thats why I like Jeet Kun Do..it removes all the useless crap, and simply borrows from many forms, that wich works....
Karate,
Muy Thai...
Boxing...
Kung-Fu...

Everything....

Formless..to encompass all forms.

I understand what He means by his distatse for Karate.
It does have some weaknesses compared to many forms of Kung-Fu.
I personally find it too stiff and rigid.

But.....that being said.....

Most forms of Kung-Fu have thier weaknesses too.....

Not practical.

Very good against other martial artists.....not so effective against boxers, or brawlers.....

Thats why I like Jeet Kun Do..it removes all the useless crap, and simply borrows from many forms, that wich works....
Karate,
Muy Thai...
Boxing...
Kung-Fu...

Everything....

Formless..to encompass all forms.

Quick and painless way to do it is to put him up against a series of opponents from the class. With every beating he takes, a new seed of doubt will be planted. :wink:

Kokusbitus, I doubt you have the tiniest idea what you're talking about.

Well I think that six years in kung fu practice does teach you certain things. I think having a look at many different martial arts does help to know what you're talking about. Here's an anology for you. A karate master challenge Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee beat him in about 15 seconds. And Bruce Lee is not even considered good in most kung fu circles. My opinion of karate is very low. Okunawa karate is different though. I do have a certain respect for it. But I have the same opinion of karate as I do about military training standards as well.

Two points: All Karate is Okinawan karate. All karate. If it's from Japan (not including Okinawa), or from China, or from Korea, then it's not karate (no matter what people call it). Karate was developed by the Okinawans as a defence against the invading Japanese since the Japanese were armed and the weaponless Okinawans needed to know how to combat them.

Second point: What does it matter if Bruce Lee beat a karate master? You're saying that one single karate master losing means that all of karate sucks? If you said that about a religion or ethnic group you'd be called a racist.

Correction. The most popular form of karate at the moment is the bastardized Japanese version which the first school of was opened in around about 1950. Plus there are heaps of different styles of karate. My Bruce Lee example was, guess what? Just an example. I don't see the merit in using brute force (because that's all it is) to overcome brute force. Whoever is stronger will win. It's that simple. Because you are fighting fire with fire. Using brute force against brute force. Using linear motion against linear motion. It doesn't work. By the way BackwoodsSquatches I like Jeet Kune Do's philosophy. It's quite good, but I do Tai Chi Chuan and it only uses 'forms' to teach you everything. After learning the form, you know everything you need to know. It's the matter of picking out the more subtle techniques. But I must admit I don't agree with Bruce Lee letting kicking techniques going above the waist. Sure it's great to kick above the waist but it requires too much energy and a fist can reach the head much faster and easier than a kick.

AAAOW! EVIL! Poor you, Klonor. :cry:

Leave or something. I'm sure there's no lack of demand for good karate teachers!

Forgive my persumption Klonor, but it sounds as if you have serious doubts as to your own fitness to be teaching; as such you do not feel you have the tools you need to complete your job. In addition, you mention that your Sensei simply ran you through the motions and slapped a shodan on you after a few years...not the most compelling argument for awarding you such a belt.

You said, "That's just it, I can't think of any way. No matter how I phrase it, it comes down to "Your student is bad, and that means you're teaching him badly." I don't mean that, but that's how it would come out as."

Is this student really that much of an exception? If he's so far removed from the rest of the classes...Why not explain to the sensei the problem in the context of; You're having trouble teaching the student yourself, he needs some remedial training, and does your sensei have any words of advice for the future about training difficult or untalented students? Broaden the conversation so that its you your sensei is discussing, and the theory of teaching students...not so much the one kid.

Every teacher has some problem students, those that need more help than the rest, who lack the physical or mental minimums but have the heart to keep going. You must concentrate on one thing at a time and burn it into the kid a little at a time. Don't worry about teaching him everything all at once, just focus on improving one aspect of the kid's arsenal.

Use that one skill as a launching point for a discussion; you don't have time to set the kid aside, so pick a move and make sure that kid thinks in his own mind that you think that this one move he's learning needs a lot of work in order to move on, focus on having him practice a skill that has many implications (pick a move that forces him to turn properly, or that requires him to hold his stance well; as well as moving his arms properly)

Make sure you look for opportunities to have the kid practice that move you have chosen, make him master one tiny aspect of what he's lacking. It will make teaching him the rest much easier. Given what you've said, the kid could train for 10 years without mastering the fundementals; but focus on the child's personal cultivation.

I do not wish to belittle your school; but as you've described it, the school itself seems like it might be the root of the problem. You may want to consider your options as to the future if you truly wish to pursue the arts, this might not be the best school to do it in. You have three options as I see it. 1) Ignore the problem and concentrate on keeping that student from dragging the other kids down. 2) Retrain the student as I suggested or inform your seniors about the problem and ask for advice on how to solve it. 3) Leave the dojo and seek a new master to train under; one that will train you and not simply go through the motions.

Correction. The most popular form of karate at the moment is the bastardized Japanese version which the first school of was opened in around about 1950. Plus there are heaps of different styles of karate. My Bruce Lee example was, guess what? Just an example. I don't see the merit in using brute force (because that's all it is) to overcome brute force. Whoever is stronger will win. It's that simple. Because you are fighting fire with fire. Using brute force against brute force. Using linear motion against linear motion. It doesn't work. By the way BackwoodsSquatches I like Jeet Kune Do's philosophy. It's quite good, but I do Tai Chi Chuan and it only uses 'forms' to teach you everything. After learning the form, you know everything you need to know. It's the matter of picking out the more subtle techniques. But I must admit I don't agree with Bruce Lee letting kicking techniques going above the waist. Sure it's great to kick above the waist but it requires too much energy and a fist can reach the head much faster and easier than a kick.

To call Karate pure brute force is to utterly misunderstand the subtlety of the form. I understand what you are saying (being a student of Bruce Lee's teachings), but you are misunderstanding something here...The concept of liking or disliking a style or a technique is folly; the styles are tools that one uses to an end.

The Karate styles and forms work very well if used in the proper situation, but it is only one aspect of human combative forms, and its traditional teaching methods lack much in the way of reality-based training. The same could be said for most martial arts, they have been rendered more esoteric by time and tradition and have lost their focus as combative forms.

At the same time however, they remain valid if the user recognizes that the esoteric nature and traditional methods serve more than just combative need; they are steeped in history and have developed their opaque methods for a reason. (that reason is complex and somewhat varied, I don't wish to go into it deeply here...)

The no-style adaptation that Bruce Lee espoused was a call for a return to a pure-combat oriented fighting system that did away with traditional forms. Given the period of history he lived in, this was hardly surprising. His rejection of Kata was aided by the fact that his classes were generally tiny and he taught only a select few students. Karate, as well as most traditional forms are burdened with far greater numbers of students and many more masters who sometimes only partially understand what they themselves teach.

Believe it or not, this rant served a purpose; Lee was a small man, he also was exceptionally light and fast moving. His high kicks took less out of him than most other people, his style was crafted for his stature and body type. He taught many varied body types, but the training was heavily personalized, thus when he taught Kareem Abdul Jabaar (sp?), high kicks were not as prioritized as much as they were for other students.

Your body should be served by your style and vice versa; work towards your strengths in your fighting skills and you will be better rewarded. That being said, Karate is good for a person of considerable stature, where they can simply use an iron body to crush an opponent's weaker force, to use strength against weakness is NOT a fallacy. Karate and Jeet Kune Do are not comparable as mass-taught styles, they serve different purposes; Karate is a style and Jeet Kune Do is a philosophy of combat that takes advantage of each induvidual style's weaknesses and strengths.

Taking a break from the martial art nerd fight (I say cause this is the internet and none of you all can kick my ass....):

First-I sucked out loud at karate (Kenpo, fight over the connotation of that, I don't care. I liked watching Jeff Speakman keep hitting guys who where already knocked out). My instructor was a nice guy who rewarded effort with eventual belts, which ultimately was demeaning (though still well intentioned). I knew I sucked out loud, a slight difference than the example, but the first time this kid trys to test himself (tournament, sparring whatever) he is going to crush HARD!!!! All you're doing by not getting at him now is passing the buck. He's gonna find out, either way he'll be mad at you. Only one way he'll forgive you.

Second-When I played music I was good without trying, so I didn't. The only instructors that made me any better where the ones with the balls to tell me I was full of shit and needed to get off my ass and work. Those where good instructors, the others where just caretakers.

To call Karate pure brute force is to utterly misunderstand the subtlety of the form. I understand what you are saying (being a student of Bruce Lee's teachings), but you are misunderstanding something here...The concept of liking or disliking a style or a technique is folly; the styles are tools that one uses to an end.

The Karate styles and forms work very well if used in the proper situation, but it is only one aspect of human combative forms, and its traditional teaching methods lack much in the way of reality-based training. The same could be said for most martial arts, they have been rendered more esoteric by time and tradition and have lost their focus as combative forms.

At the same time however, they remain valid if the user recognizes that the esoteric nature and traditional methods serve more than just combative need; they are steeped in history and have developed their opaque methods for a reason. (that reason is complex and somewhat varied, I don't wish to go into it deeply here...)

The no-style adaptation that Bruce Lee espoused was a call for a return to a pure-combat oriented fighting system that did away with traditional forms. Given the period of history he lived in, this was hardly surprising. His rejection of Kata was aided by the fact that his classes were generally tiny and he taught only a select few students. Karate, as well as most traditional forms are burdened with far greater numbers of students and many more masters who sometimes only partially understand what they themselves teach.

Believe it or not, this rant served a purpose; Lee was a small man, he also was exceptionally light and fast moving. His high kicks took less out of him than most other people, his style was crafted for his stature and body type. He taught many varied body types, but the training was heavily personalized, thus when he taught Kareem Abdul Jabaar (sp?), high kicks were not as prioritized as much as they were for other students.

Your body should be served by your style and vice versa; work towards your strengths in your fighting skills and you will be better rewarded. That being said, Karate is good for a person of considerable stature, where they can simply use an iron body to crush an opponent's weaker force, to use strength against weakness is NOT a fallacy. Karate and Jeet Kune Do are not comparable as mass-taught styles, they serve different purposes; Karate is a style and Jeet Kune Do is a philosophy of combat that takes advantage of each induvidual style's weaknesses and strengths.

The subtlty of the form... hmmm... As I said before it is basically a military form of training because it did appear after WWII to give the Japanese army something to do. There is no subtly because they do not teach you anything. They say do this for hours on end. They don't tell you what it's for and then when they do, they give you no room for error. We are human beings. We bugger up stuff. To say that you can block a punch the same way over and over and over again a million times without making a mistake then you must be the second coming.

And I do agree with you. Way too many martial arts are losing their purpose - to defend one's self. Too many are being turned into a 'sport'. Take Ju Jitsu for example. Great martial art. I have nothing but respect for it. Then look at Judo. Turned into a sport and for some reason they think people are going to be nice and let them grab them... No...

Yes high kicks are nice and fancy. Bruce Lee could use them better than most others because he was only about 5"9 and quick. But doesn't that mean he should be able to use his hands far, far quicker without taking much out of him at all? Yes, so why waste precious energy into something that is quicker and more effective in close range? All fights end up there sooner or later.

Yes your body should suit your style. But here is the thing. To use karate you need to be 10 feet tall, be incredibly strong, quick as lighting and have the stamina of a god. I haven't come across someone like that and when I do, I have no intention of fighting him. Yes Jeet Kune Do does suit all different people, I like it. But I don't particulary like the techniques because even though they may suit the student, they most often have very little practical use. The human body is an incredible thing, it can be trained to do almost anything. Yes, I could probably kick someone in the head if I tried, but it's incredibly dangerous. Not only do you have to deal with to hands in the way, you also have to take into account that the person may duck, weave or bob out of your way. I don't see the merit in kicking head high.

He may never be that good but if it gives himself confidence.... well it's up to you. I also teach, something completely different, I will always correct every mistake I see. I have no problems failing someone. But I teach adults.

However, your situation with the 10 year old is tough. I feel sorry for you. Your in a tough spot. Just encourage him but let it be known to the parents, in a kind way, that he tries very hard but does not seem to get the hang of it.

Dude, just take it up with your sensei. If he's a good sensei and person), he won't think any less of you if you ask for his help in the matter...

But I must admit I don't agree with Bruce Lee letting kicking techniques going above the waist. Sure it's great to kick above the waist but it requires too much energy and a fist can reach the head much faster and easier than a kick.

As people have mentioned before, that worked for him..it isnt apprropriate for someone with my build.......barely 5"10 and over 200 lbs....I dont kick high.....simple as that.

To that end..maybe youve heard on Lee's "One Inch Punch"?

SNAP!

Lightning quick..and powerful enough to snap someones sternum....

JKD, doesnt nessescarily teach kicking above the waist...especially for someone like me.
"Formless", remember....

while there is certainly capacity for subtlty and refinement in nearly all things, and i am largely ignorant of martial arts generaly, arn't most people attracted to the 'te' forms by the 'glamour' of their potential to cause harm, while to the 'do' forms by the gratification of being able to avoid doing so?

=^^=
.../\...

while there is certainly capacity for subtlty and refinement in nearly all things, and i am largely ignorant of martial arts generaly, arn't most people attracted to the 'te' forms by the 'glamour' of their potential to cause harm, while to the 'do' forms by the gratification of being able to avoid doing so?

=^^=
.../\...

Not really.

"Karate" simply means "open Hand"

"do" , or Tao, simply means "The way"....

while there is certainly capacity for subtlty and refinement in nearly all things, and i am largely ignorant of martial arts generaly, arn't most people attracted to the 'te' forms by the 'glamour' of their potential to cause harm, while to the 'do' forms by the gratification of being able to avoid doing so?

=^^=
.../\...

Not really.

"Karate" simply means "open Hand"

"do" , or Tao, simply means "The way"....

ah, then i am most appreaciative to have learned something

one other thing has crossed my mind since the previous post:
might it not be, i wonder, that khlonar's sensi may be attemting to teach HIM one of life's most difficult and neccessary lessons (one that i doubt any of us ever completely cease having some trouble with, whatever the path of our lives), and that is not to take the diversity of reality as a personal affront?

=^^=
.../\...

while there is certainly capacity for subtlty and refinement in nearly all things, and i am largely ignorant of martial arts generaly, arn't most people attracted to the 'te' forms by the 'glamour' of their potential to cause harm, while to the 'do' forms by the gratification of being able to avoid doing so?

=^^=
.../\...

Not really.

"Karate" simply means "open Hand"

"do" , or Tao, simply means "The way"....

ah, then i am most appreaciative to have learned something

one other thing has crossed my mind since the previous post:
might it not be, i wonder, that khlonar's sensi may be attemting to teach HIM one of life's most difficult and neccessary lessons (one that i doubt any of us ever completely cease having some trouble with, whatever the path of our lives), and that is not to take the diversity of reality as a personal affront?

=^^=
.../\...

Hard to say...

Dont know the guy.

But I think maybe this is a case of where the Sensai has a lot on his mind, aand this paerticular student has slipped beneath his radar, so to speak.

Well, lets put it this way Kokusbitus; I heartily disagree with you on Karate's viability or lack thereof in a combat theater. Same with high kicks. Its a viable form, perhaps not to all people, but can be very effective and thus should remain an open option to a good fighter.

With the proper application of training, with the proper timing and refined skill, one can execute any number of techniques without screwing up. It takes a freaking long time to reach that level of skill. But those who do reach it would enjoy an unbelieveable advantage over those who try to use those few techniques that are open to them through natural talent and moderate practice.

The "Do" forms (using the Japanese designation) have their own purpose besides combat as well, Karate itself is a Do form of martial arts. They become an art form, a "way" to follow and a lifestyle to learn from. The Do forms are important, and their lack of focus on combat effectiveness is not as detrimental as one might think. It would take a VERY good practitioner of those combat-intensive forms to overcome a Master of any of the Do arts.

Just because there are theorietical advantages to not limiting yourself to the rules and structure, there are benifits to taking advantage of those rules and learning something from them. The fighter's job is to find a form, a style, or a way that suits their needs and goals and helps them develop as a person. To merely seek combat power is silly.

klonor
if you are still interested in advice on how to reach this kid....

im not a teacher, im a mother, and ive never taught in a group situation so keep this in mind when evaluating how good this advice is....

you are just learning how to teach, youll get better over time as you deal with many different types of children.

consider confessing to your sensei YOUR deficiency in being able to teach this child correct form. if you frame it as something YOU need to work on rather than that he has let this kid slide, it will help save his face. after all its his duty to help you become a better teacher.

train this child the way you would train a dog. he is in the group so you cant spend all your time with him, that would be failing the other kids in the group. so you repeat the exercises over and over and when he does the SLIGHTEST thing right. even if its just as right as he has EVER done it. praise him. when he does it wrong, ignore it.

he is an attention seeker. he would rather get negative attention than NO attention so if you ignore his mistakes, its more effective than calling him on it.

keep your praise modest so he will strive to earn it. dont praise him for anything he doesnt earn but if he does it right, make sure he knows you noticed.

it will take a long time. there is no easy quick fix. remember he is just a kid. dont expect more out of him than he can give you at this time. he may be a kid who is terrified of failing so he tries to step outside the system. try to keep him focused on the exercises.

be patient with him and with yourself. you will learn alot about teaching from dealing with this kid and you will be proud of yourself when he starts doing things correctly.