NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you believe that the United States or "The Coalition" has actually found Weapons of Mass Destruction?"

If so..where did you hear it?

I find your poll a bit misleading... I don't think there are any WMDs to be found.

I find your poll a bit misleading... I don't think there are any WMDs to be found.

Its not misleading....its a simple question.....do you believe they have been found, or not...

If so..where did you hear the information from?

Interesting.

One person says that they believe that they have been found...but didnt say where they got the information from.

It's a huge country there my friend...he's buried entire fighter jets in the desert so that they weren't fried on the ground during the war..the world let the UN make two attempts in 12 yrs to get him to comply...and we still have sporadic situations pop up...a few missles here..a shell here..more here...buried nuclear documents..not all the scientists allowed to be questioned..

Now..I don't know where they are..for all I know our soldiers could be walking over a huge complex buried under Baghdad..but I am at least prepared to give them the same time the world gave the UN...give the US twelve years to comb that country..

It's a huge country there my friend...he's buried entire fighter jets in the desert so that they weren't fried on the ground during the war..the world let the UN make two attempts in 12 yrs to get him to comply...and we still have sporadic situations pop up...a few missles here..a shell here..more here...buried nuclear documents..not all the scientists allowed to be questioned..

Now..I don't know where they are..for all I know our soldiers could be walking over a huge complex buried under Baghdad..but I am at least prepared to give them the same time the world gave the UN...give the US twelve years to comb that country..

Agreed.

Iraq IS big place..

But I personally believe that there are no weapons to be found, for two reasons...

1. The whole point to having them in the first place is to have them, in case you need them...by burying them in the sand, so well hidden that you cant get to them in a hurry..defeats the purpose.

2. Thats an awfully big secret to hide from everyone including your own top officials, many of whom, are in custody, and singing like canaries..
It seems as though if they WERE there...or if a large depository DID exist....at least a FEW people would know about it, and would have talked.

Im not going to go so far as to say that they will never be found, becuase however unlikely.....the possibility remains.
But I thinks its highly unlikely that anything measureable will turn up.

That being said...

Remember.....this isnt about wether you believe that there ARE weapons , yet undiscovered....

But rather....do you believe that we HAVE INDEED found them....

Grasping for Straws.

But I have a looming feeling something big and nasty is about to turn up.

According to David Kay's report we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

-- More recently: Sarin nerve agents and Mustard gas.

According to David Kay's report we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

-- More recently: Sarin nerve agents and Mustard gas.

Quick question for you..

Who is David Kay...

and why should I believe him, over Pentagon officials, who say weve found nothing of value?

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Good Gods...just what do you want?....I mean..seriously..just what "amount" of anything would convince you?

According to David Kay's report we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

-- More recently: Sarin nerve agents and Mustard gas.

Quick question for you..

Who is David Kay...

and why should I believe him, over Pentagon officials, who say weve found nothing of value?

David Kay was Washington's man on the ground in Iraq.. a Bush man.. who came back and said "There is no WMD" so like most Bush people who don't follow the parrot line of the party.. He was outted.. as being irrelevant.

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Good Gods...just what do you want?....I mean..seriously..just what "amount" of anything would convince you?

Thousands of liters of Anthrax and Active collaboration with Al Qeada

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Good Gods...just what do you want?....I mean..seriously..just what "amount" of anything would convince you?

Thousands of liters of Anthrax and Active collaboration with Al Qeada

Sorry, it doesn't exist.. ;)

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Good Gods...just what do you want?....I mean..seriously..just what "amount" of anything would convince you?

Thousands of liters of Anthrax and Active collaboration with Al Qeada

You forget there were over 270 tons of materials unaccounted for by the UN inspectors..out of the 700 tons of chemical and biological materials identified in their arsenal...UN inspectors only visually verified a large chunk of it being destroyed..and assumed the Iraqis would follow thru on the remainder..I've seen no evidence that would tell me they did in fact destroy the remaining tons of material.

as for what you wanted...let me state something here...at the end of the First Gulf War...and in the Armistice signed by Iraq...they weren't so much as able to have a thimble's worth of ANYTHING, not a shell, not a warhead, not a rocket..NOTHING...so on it's face they were in violation of the Armistice..if you want to get technical about it.

Another question... what are WMD's... what classifies as a weapon of mass destruction? I think that all this Iraq war is really America's fault... who funded the revolution that got Saddam in power?... America... who has the most insolent and undisciplined troops?.... America........ who thinks that they are above the UN?....America...... It all goes back to that....
Did anyone see dead ringers??? fantastic idea by Tony Blair to solve child obesity by sending the fatties to Iraq
"They won't be knocked down.. just wobble"

They won't find any. Iraq probably moved them to Syria and Iran.

According to David Kay's report we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

-- More recently: Sarin nerve agents and Mustard gas.
Since Kay resigned two weeks ago, his statements that Saddam’s purported weapons did not exist at the time of the U.S. invasion have sparked an intense debate over the prewar intelligence the administration used to justify the war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4049012/

What ever The Bush Admin terms it to be. WMD as they use is only rhetoric, but they didnt invent the term.

A WMD is a powerful but non specifically targeted type munition. With nukes they blow up an entire area to get a few specific targets, and it works pretty much the same way with CBW (Chemical and Biological weapons)

Its not very applicable when you talk about terrorists.

According to David Kay's report we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

-- More recently: Sarin nerve agents and Mustard gas.

Quick question for you..

Who is David Kay...

and why should I believe him, over Pentagon officials, who say weve found nothing of value?
You should believe David Kay and NOT Luciferius?

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The former top U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq on Wednesday blamed intelligence failures for the apparently incorrect conclusion that Saddam Hussein possessed large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction before the U.S.-led invasion.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/sprj.nirq.wmd.kay/

Active collaboration with Al Qeada

I'm pretty sure Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were enemies. I heard that Al Qaeda even offered to help in the first gulf war.

Active collaboration with Al Qeada

I'm pretty sure Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were enemies. I heard that Al Qaeda even offered to help in the first gulf war.

You've never heard the saying.."The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Active collaboration with Al Qeada

I'm pretty sure Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were enemies. I heard that Al Qaeda even offered to help in the first gulf war.

You've never heard the saying.."The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

But my enemy is still my enemy. Its simply ignorant to say that Iraq was a potential friend to AL Qeada. That is a Blatent Lie put out by the Bush Administration. It only attacks America because it thinks that America props up those Regimes. Al Qaedas "supposed" main goal is to take down the Goverments in the Middle east and install Hardcore Islamic governments. The Taliban were "Damn Liberals" To them. Still, they put up with Bin laden. Why do you think the Taliban offered to Give Bin laden up? Doesnt make much sense. But then the whole damn thing doesnt. Still Al Qeada has stated this. You can go back and read this for yourself.

Neither does my post because I C&P'd it up. But anyway....

--dp--

I don't think radical muslim extremist who are willing to blow themselves up are really the type to compromise.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/agmadein/Funstuff/PICTURES/al_qaeda_iraq_link.jpg

Any radical religious extremist... not all radical islams are suicide bombers... i do like it how you said muslim... the media has made us think that it is an evil religion...
All religion should go.. faith is for sucks....... we should all follow the buddhist way of life and be self suffiecint.. instead of sucking on the teat of religion and big corporations

IRAQ-AL-QAEDA CONNECTION:

Salman Pak, Iraq is located south of Baghdad and is formerly known for being both a special weapons facility and notorious training ground for terrorists. Arab terrorists from all over the Middle East such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Palestinian Liberation Front, Al Askr Martyrs Brigade, and Muslim Brotherhood have been recruited from Bagdad and trained in Salman Pak. One of the many terror tatics in which terrorists were trained was plane hijacking.

After the first WTC attack in '93, suspected al-Qaeda terrorist cell member Rahman Yasin, fled to Iraq and money and housing from Husseins regime. One of the Septemember 11th hijackers, Mohammed Atta, has been reported and is believed to have received final training in Baghdad.

Ansar al-Islam, an islamic terror org, has been operating in northern Iraq for years now. Ansar al-Islam, widely known as an al-Qaeda affiliate, was, according to a former Iraqi intelligence service agent, secretly supported by Saddam. Providing training and arms for Ansar al-Islam was a way for Saddam to destabilize the Kurdish population (which controled northern Iraq and was terrorized by Ansar al-Islam) while maintaining plausible deniability by pointing out that Saddam is a secularist and the terror group is religous, despite Saddam funding and harboring every other 'religous' terrorist in the Arab world.

Abu Musab Zarqawi, man who decapitated Nick Berg and is responsible for dozens of other terrorist attacks on Americans since Operation Iraqi Freedom, has been recruiting for al-Qaeda in Baghdad since 2002.

FOR MORE LINKS: http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=5070

http: http://freedomstavern.com/Saddam911link.htm

10 WAYS THE LIBERATION OF IRAQ SUPPORTS THE WAR ON TERROR:

1) With the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraq is no longer a state sponsor of terror. According to State Department reports on terrorism, before the removal of Saddam's regime, Iraq was one of seven state sponsors of terror.

2) Saddam Hussein's regime posed a threat to the security of the United States and the world. With the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime, a leader who pursued, used, and possessed weapons of mass destruction is no longer in power.

3) Saddam Hussein would not uphold his international commitments, and now that he is no longer in power, the world is safe from this tyrant. The old Iraqi regime defied the international community and seventeen UN resolutions for twelve years and gave every indication that it would never disarm and never comply with the just demands of the world.

4) A senior al Qaida terrorist, now detained, who had been responsible for al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan, reports that al Qaida was intent on obtaining WMD assistance from Iraq. According to a credible, high-level al Qaida source, Usama Bin Laden and deceased al Qaida leader Muhammad Atif did not believe that al Qaida labs in Afghanistan were capable of manufacturing chemical and biological weapons, so they turned to Iraq for assistance. Iraq agreed to provide chemical and biological weapons training for two al Qaida associates starting in December 2000.

5) Senior al Qaida associate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi came to Baghdad in May 2002 for medical treatment along with approximately two dozen al Qaida terrorist associates. This group stayed in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq and plotted terrorist attacks around the world.

6) A safe haven in Iraq belonging to Ansar al-Islam -- a terrorist group closely associated with Zarqawi and al Qaida -- was destroyed during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In March 2003, during a raid on the compound controlled by the terrorists in northeastern Iraq, a cache of documents was discovered, including computer discs and foreign passports belonging to fighters from various Middle East nationalities.

7) The al Qaida affiliate Ansar al-Islam is known to still be present in Iraq. Such terrorist groups are now plotting against U.S. forces in Iraq.

8) Law enforcement and intelligence operations have disrupted al Qaida associate Abu Musab Zarqawi's poison plotting in France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany, and Russia. The facilities in Northern Iraq, set up by Zarqawi and Ansar al-Islam were, before the war, an al Qaida's poisons/toxins laboratory.

9) Abu Musa Zarqawi, the al Qaida associate with direct links to Iraq, oversaw those responsible for the assassination of USAID officer Laurence Foley in Amman, Jordan last October.

10) Saddam Hussein's Iraq provided material assistance to Palestinian terrorist groups, including the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad, according to a State Department report. This included paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, according to testimonials from Palestinians and cancelled checks. Also, according to State Department reports, terrorist groups the Iranian Mujahedin-e-Khalq and the Abu Nidal organization were protected by the Iraqi regime.

All of this: http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/part1.html

Monday, April 19, 2004 1:38 p.m. EDT
Chem Bomb Plot Flashback: Kay Warned Iraq's WMDs in Syria Just two months before al-Qaida terrorists were caught by Jordanian police transporting chemical bombs across the Jordanian-Syrian border, U.S. weapons inspector David Kay identified Syria as a likely hiding place for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

"We know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programs," Kay told the London Telegraph.

On Saturday, Jordanian officials revealed that the vehicles used by al-Qaida plotters to transport 17.5 tons of explosives into Jordan also contained chemical weapons and poison gas. Targets were said to include the headquarters of Jordan's security service and the U.S. Embassy in Amman.
Had the plot succeeded, the death toll could have reached 20,000, the officials said.

Three weeks before Kay's comments to the London paper, the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf published a report from Syrian journalist Nizar Nayuf claiming that the transfer of Iraqi WMD to Syria was organized by commanders of Saddam Hussein's Special Republican Guard.
The report included a letter to Nayuf from an Iraqi source detailing the WMD transfers.

The Iraqi source claimed:"We received confirmations that the Iraqi weapons, which were moved to Syria by the help of General Zoul-Himla Chalich are now hidden in three places inside Syria:
"First place: a tunnel dug in the mountain close to the Al-Baïdah village, which is roughly two kilometers from Misyaf village. This place is under the 489 Safety cipher Documents' office control.

"Second place: the factory of the Air Armed Forces in the village of Tal Sinan, between the town of Hama and Salamiyyah. This factory is under the Air Force control.

"Third place: the location of Shinsar, 40 kilometers south of Homs, two kilometers east of the Homs - Damascus road.

"There are underground tunnels there, controlled by Brigade 661 of the armed air Forces. It is a Brigade of air Patrol. The tunnels are several tens of meters deep. The weapons were transported in large wooden cases and barrels, under the supervision of the General Zoul-Himla Chalich and the son of his brother Assef, who works at Al-Bachaer company.

"The company is owned by the Assad family and has offices in Beirut, Damascus and Baghdad. This company also undertook the illegal Iraqi oil importation in Syria, and supplied weapons to Saddam."
In an interview last week, Jordan's King Abdullah said the al-Qaida chem bomb plot would have been devastating had it succeeded.

"It was a major, major operation. It would have decapitated the government," he told the San Francisco Chronicle. "Casualties would have been in the thousands. It couldn't have been more sinister."

Abdullah said, however, that he was "completely confident" that Syrian president Bashir Assad knew nothing about the WMD bomb plot. Syria has denied hiding Iraq's WMDs.
The Jordanian king is in the U.S. on a previously scheduled trip to help restart the Mideast peace process, but the al-Qaida WMD plot will likely be topic No. 1 when Abdullah meets with President Bush in Washington on Wednesday.

So much Effort. So Little Achieved. I would comment on all of that. But I dont want to drive this thread off topic.

But I will say that At best those are technicalities. Not Justification for war. War is about Black and White. Not Pulling any reason, no matter how small, any link no matter how tenuous to justify its very existence. Its supposed to be clear cut.

So much Effort. So Little Achieved. I would comment on all of that. But I dont want to drive this thread off topic.

But I will say that At best those are technicalities. Not Justification for war. War is about Black and White. Not Pulling any reason, no matter how small, any link no matter how tenuous to justify its very existence. Its supposed to be clear cut.

So facts that show clear links don't count?

simple question, simple answer:

no, we haven't found any WMD. none. zip. zilch. whether or not they are still out there is not what the question was asking. we haven't found any.

Facts that show Tenuous Links dont count. Not to mention that this War was justified to the public at large of Iraq's direct capability to Attack the United States with WMD. The rest came up when this reason couldnt cut it.

But It needs to be said My definition of the War on Terror and Your definition of the War on Terror differ greatly. But As I said. I'm not getting into it. That and each "Link" you posted is a thread unto itself and will take us too far offtopic.

Well....didn't they find some empty shells or something?! Does that count?

Osama Binladen Bitterly hates saddam, dont know where some of you guys, and the freakin' bush administration got the idea that the both of them are the best of mates. Binladen has hated saddam for decades.

and yeah, the weapons will be there somewhere, just hope this 'bring our boys home' bullcrap ends quickly, let the coalition do its job, then get the hell out of there, there is no point not completing what was set out to be achieved.

this nonsense about iraq turning into some sort of modern vietnam is absolute crap. funnily enough, i dont see the chinese freakin' army marching through the streets of iraq, and i sure as hell dont see the jungle anywhere. its a different war, and a war which will take time to resolve.

well, thats my two cents...

Osama also hates the Saudis, but that didn't stop them from giving oil money to islamist terrorists like al-Qaeda. Arabs have no permanent allies, only permanent interests.

Osama also hates the Saudis, but that didn't stop them from giving oil money to islamist terrorists like al-Qaeda. Arabs have no permanent allies, only permanent interests.

Your point is correct. But you should use terms like "the" to refer to groups. You are confusing Private individuals and offically sanctioned activity by the organisations they are a part of.

simple question, simple answer:

no, we haven't found any WMD. none. zip. zilch. whether or not they are still out there is not what the question was asking. we haven't found any.

Except for the 155mm shell filled with Sarin Gas :roll:
Except for the shell filled with Mustard Gas :roll:

It's a good thing we haven't found ANYTHING buried in Iraq to give us the idea that ANY WMDs could have been buried! :roll:


:shock:

Nah, we haven't found WMD. Bush would be riding them all the way through DC if we did.

Who gave Iraq WMD's in the first place to fight Iran?

America

Hooray for us.

War is a Weapon of Mass Destuction

Peace is a Weapon of Mass Constuction

Who gave Iraq WMD's in the first place to fight Iran?

America

Hooray for us.

Actually..Iraq got WoMD's from more then a few places, not just the US. And the reason we supported Iraq was because not a year earlier Iran had taken American citizens hostage and held them for a year as were threatening to expand their theocracy outside of Iran...that was a regional destabilization we couldn't let happen..so yes..we did support Iraq..if nothing else..to let them bleed each other to death in their 8 yr war.

Who gave Iraq WMD's in the first place to fight Iran?

America

Hooray for us.

Actually..Iraq got WoMD's from more then a few places, not just the US. And the reason we supported Iraq was because not a year earlier Iran had taken American citizens hostage and held them for a year as were threatening to expand their theocracy outside of Iran...that was a regional destabilization we couldn't let happen..so yes..we did support Iraq..if nothing else..to let them bleed each other to death in their 8 yr war.

we still gave them WMDs


---edit---

What you said brings up one of my most favorite quotations:

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. "

-- Mohandas K. Gandhi

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Good Gods...just what do you want?....I mean..seriously..just what "amount" of anything would convince you?

Thousands of liters of Anthrax and Active collaboration with Al Qeada

You forget there were over 270 tons of materials unaccounted for by the UN inspectors..out of the 700 tons of chemical and biological materials identified in their arsenal...UN inspectors only visually verified a large chunk of it being destroyed..and assumed the Iraqis would follow thru on the remainder..I've seen no evidence that would tell me they did in fact destroy the remaining tons of material.

as for what you wanted...let me state something here...at the end of the First Gulf War...and in the Armistice signed by Iraq...they weren't so much as able to have a thimble's worth of ANYTHING, not a shell, not a warhead, not a rocket..NOTHING...so on it's face they were in violation of the Armistice..if you want to get technical about it.

1. WHY, WHY did Bush kick out the UN inspectors? I will answer for you. They were finding NADA, ZIP, ZILTCH and that was ruining Bush's plan to attack Iraq no matter what.

2. IF they find anything now, it is immaterial, as the damage has already been done. Thousands of innocent Iraqi deaths (men, women, and children). Thousands more severely wounded (pictures by the way that you won't acknowledge). Hundreds of US troops killed, and thousands more injured. IF # 1 above had been completed, # 2 would never have happened?

3. Do you seriously, honestly believe that Iraq was an IMMINENT threat to the US?

4. And if you want to get technical, Israel has breached FAR more UN Resolutions than Iraq, by a long shot and the US turns a blind eye to those indiscretions and vetoes any resolution against them. WHY?

BTW you are incorrect as to what Iraq was allowed to keep after the Gulf War. One of them was rockets, as long as they couldn't travel over 110 miles. So you have exaggerated, but I am not surprised.

Who gave Iraq WMD's in the first place to fight Iran?

America

Hooray for us.

Actually..Iraq got WoMD's from more then a few places, not just the US. And the reason we supported Iraq was because not a year earlier Iran had taken American citizens hostage and held them for a year as were threatening to expand their theocracy outside of Iran...that was a regional destabilization we couldn't let happen..so yes..we did support Iraq..if nothing else..to let them bleed each other to death in their 8 yr war.
I guess Bush figured that they hadn't done enough bleeding for your country so Bush repays their help by giving them a little bit of "Shock and Awe" treatment, to make them bleed a little more? How very kind of him/them.

All of this without the blessing of the UN, I might add.

Who gave Iraq WMD's in the first place to fight Iran?

America

Hooray for us.
We gave them biological samples of diseases that we routinely give to friendly governments around the world to make vaccines.

WMD Givers? The Soviet Bloc & Eastern Europe, with a bit of France mixed in.

1. WHY, WHY did Bush kick out the UN inspectors? I will answer for you. They were finding NADA, ZIP, ZILTCH and that was ruining Bush's plan to attack Iraq no matter what.
Because Saddam was declared in material breech and we couldn't wait any longer to attack. Its near impossible to attack Iraq during the summer when desert temperatures regularly reach over 100 degrees. An increased frequency of sandstorms, too. If Saddam had actually complied with the resolutions rather than producing 1000+ page dossiers on WMD that still had information missing, we wouldn't have had to tell the inspectors to leave.

2. IF they find anything now, it is immaterial, as the damage has already been done. Thousands of innocent Iraqi deaths (men, women, and children). Thousands more severely wounded (pictures by the way that you won't acknowledge). Hundreds of US troops killed, and thousands more injured. IF # 1 above had been completed, # 2 would never have happened?
More likely more Iraqi deaths and fewer American ones, via Saddam and the eventual passage to his sons.

4. And if you want to get technical, Israel has breached FAR more UN Resolutions than Iraq, by a long shot and the US turns a blind eye to those indiscretions and vetoes any resolution against them. WHY?
Because Israel has breached mainly things coming from the Anti-Israel general assembly rather than the Security Council which has to act with some sort of respect and fairness towards the Jews.

does it even matter if there are no wmd's? saddam had control over a huge amount of oil, which if destroyed/damaged/tarrifed, would cause incredible trouble. think prices are high now? pfft, we aint seen nothing.

its bloody hard to deny that citizens in iraq were being oppressed and thier 'system' of government was not representing the will of the people. its all well and good to say that the war is bad and coalition forces shouldn't be there because there aint any chem or biological weapons, but would we have stood by and let some crackpot run off with a fair percentage of the worlds oil and continue to destroy the people of iraq? hell no.

its a damn shame the bush administration, and for that matter, the other nations in the coalition didnt have the balls and say that forces were moving in to liberate the people and the oil in iraq.

they would have had my support.

They might have had your support, but they wouldn't have had the support of most of the rest of the US. Let me rephrase that--there would have been even more dissent in the US had the government been honest about their intentions.

Bump..

Once again folks...

This isnt about wether or not you think they exist....this is about wether or not you believe that WMD's HAVE been found.

If you beleive the answer is "yes"....please say where you heard this information.

Bump..

Once again folks...

This isnt about wether or not you think they exist....this is about wether or not you believe that WMD's HAVE been found.

If you beleive the answer is "yes"....please say where you heard this information.

Bump..

Once again folks...

This isnt about wether or not you think they exist....this is about wether or not you believe that WMD's HAVE been found.

If you beleive the answer is "yes"....please say where you heard this information.

How to answer that, since the WMD's was just a lie by the Bush administration to push their agenda through the UN, which failed, but it did get them enough support from the American people, which wasn't hard because we just hated Saddam and wanted to get rid of him, we didn't need a reason to convince ourselves, we just wanted to take care of old business.

I find your poll a bit misleading... I don't think there are any WMDs to be found.

Its not misleading....its a simple question.....do you believe they have been found, or not...

If so..where did you hear the information from?

The question implies that there are WMDs to be found. For those who believe that there are none in the country, and that they will never be found, the question seems factually inaccurate.

1. WHY, WHY did Bush kick out the UN inspectors? I will answer for you. They were finding NADA, ZIP, ZILTCH and that was ruining Bush's plan to attack Iraq no matter what.

Because Saddam was declared in material breech and we couldn't wait any longer to attack. Its near impossible to attack Iraq during the summer when desert temperatures regularly reach over 100 degrees. An increased frequency of sandstorms, too. If Saddam had actually complied with the resolutions rather than producing 1000+ page dossiers on WMD that still had information missing, we wouldn't have had to tell the inspectors to leave.
Bush would have the world believe this but his traditional allies weren't buying it, and now it appears for very good reason. Iraq never was a threat to the US.

2. IF they find anything now, it is immaterial, as the damage has already been done. Thousands of innocent Iraqi deaths (men, women, and children). Thousands more severely wounded (pictures by the way that you won't acknowledge). Hundreds of US troops killed, and thousands more injured. IF # 1 above had been completed, # 2 would never have happened?

More likely more Iraqi deaths and fewer American ones, via Saddam and the eventual passage to his sons.
Total speculation.

4. And if you want to get technical, Israel has breached FAR more UN Resolutions than Iraq, by a long shot and the US turns a blind eye to those indiscretions and vetoes any resolution against them. WHY?

Because Israel has breached mainly things coming from the Anti-Israel general assembly rather than the Security Council which has to act with some sort of respect and fairness towards the Jews.
Are you suggesting that the UN Security Council was Anti-Israel? Thats a crock and you know it.

I think that's the ultimate point Squatches is trying to make.

Edit--that was in reply to Uzebettagetoffamyland.

I think that's the ultimate point Squatches is trying to make.

What is?

We should really be thanking the Israelis and the Iranians here, they cooperated to destroy a Nuclear research lab right in Baghdad, only after Desert storm did we realist how close they were to a bomb, had the Israelis not used the information that Iran gave them about the protection of the research lab and destroyed it, which drew lots of heat from the international community, then thousands of American and coalition soldiers may have been vaporized in seconds, or just given radiation poisoning since it was more likely they were building a dirty bomb that would spread radiation over miles of desert that was being traveled by coalition soldiers. Who would have thought, Israelis and Iranians working together to take down Iraq's Nuke program, and what would ya know, not a single plane shot down because the entire Iraqi air defense system was shut down for maintenance, good timing heh?

Do I think Iraq had WMDs? Yes.
Do I think they'll be found? No.
Do I think it was a legit reason to go to Iraq? No.

If Bush wants to be a hero, fight terrorism, and build democratic nations, why doesn't he start with a more substantial target...like China?
Oh...because the USA makes profit in China, right, sorry.

I think that's the ultimate point Squatches is trying to make.

What is?That there are no WMD in Iraq, and that if someone heard that, they heard wrong. If someone is able to provide a link, for instance, then you can start questioning the reliability of the news source.

How to answer that, since the WMD's was just a lie by the Bush administration to push their agenda through the UN, which failed, but it did get them enough support from the American people, which wasn't hard because we just hated Saddam and wanted to get rid of him, we didn't need a reason to convince ourselves, we just wanted to take care of old business.
Now this is much closer to the truth than those who continue to hold on to the thought that this war was about WMD, which was really a smoke screen.

It's a huge country there my friend...he's buried entire fighter jets in the desert so that they weren't fried on the ground during the war..the world let the UN make two attempts in 12 yrs to get him to comply...and we still have sporadic situations pop up...a few missles here..a shell here..more here...buried nuclear documents..not all the scientists allowed to be questioned..

Now..I don't know where they are..for all I know our soldiers could be walking over a huge complex buried under Baghdad..but I am at least prepared to give them the same time the world gave the UN...give the US twelve years to comb that country..


The real question is who gave him the precursors to make the WMDs... THE USA!!!

During the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s, the USA allowed American chemical companies to sell precursors to Iraq... Or the USA bought the precursors and gave them to him....

Iraq was able to produce about 5,000,000 lbs of Mustard gas...

Do I think Iraq had WMDs? Yes.
Do I think they'll be found? No.
Do I think it was a legit reason to go to Iraq? No.

If Bush wants to be a hero, fight terrorism, and build democratic nations, why doesn't he start with a more substantial target...like China?
Oh...because the USA makes profit in China, right, sorry.

And China could actually put up a fight too, they have a hell of a lot more people and were probably be better motivated, and they have plenty of practice shooting their own people that they shoot be good shots too, the also have an air force, it can't rival the US but it can cause a problem or two in the early parts of the war. And China is starting to get better too, they are slowly starting to lessen their control over daily life, their are even Chinese who are becoming millionaires and living a rather american life style, even though most americans arent millionaires.

It's a huge country there my friend...he's buried entire fighter jets in the desert so that they weren't fried on the ground during the war..the world let the UN make two attempts in 12 yrs to get him to comply...and we still have sporadic situations pop up...a few missles here..a shell here..more here...buried nuclear documents..not all the scientists allowed to be questioned..

Now..I don't know where they are..for all I know our soldiers could be walking over a huge complex buried under Baghdad..but I am at least prepared to give them the same time the world gave the UN...give the US twelve years to comb that country..


The real question is who gave him the precursors to make the WMDs... THE USA!!!

During the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s, the USA allowed American chemical companies to sell precursors to Iraq... Or the USA bought the precursors and gave them to him....

Iraq was able to produce about 5,000,000 lbs of Mustard gas...

It is true that the U.S. funded Saddam's rise to power and supported him against Iran, but unlike many people, I feel that this is simply more reason why the U.S. should be responsible for his removal rather than saying, "we started this so we can't fix it."

Funny how you people keep saying how the US gave money to Iraq, but you never mention how we gave weapons to Iran also, we played both sides against each other, so all we did was help to countries, who didn't like each other and we didn't like them, kill each other off, sure Iraq came out on top, but we were still able bitch slap them in Desert Storm, they had no satellites so their communications and defenses were to easily shut down by air strikes since they were all land based.

if the coalition had spent the same amount of time and money on convincing everyone that it was right to go in and get the oil/fix the nation instead of convincing people there were wmd's in iraq, would people have supported it?

and just so it looks like i'm trying to contribute, i dont think we have found weapons, and i dont think we ever will. they definantly existed at some point, but its just so damn easy to break it all up and bury it. its a damn big country, and all you need to do is shoot the poor chaps who bury the stuff.

of course someone high up probably knew at one stage, but hell, thier probably dead.

There is also the question of what exactly has Saddam done that people find objectionable... I think I must agree with his own assessment of himself, he said something along the lines of, "I was a fair but firm leader."

I mean Kuwait stole his oil, they sold more than OPEC agreed to.. They wouldn't wipe out his war debts; they wouldn't help the nation who for 8 years went to bat for the whole Middle East to stop the madman Ayatollah.

If Saddam had not stepped up to the plate... Iran would have likely overrun the entire Middle East. I would like to point out that while Saddam did make the first troop movements in the Iran-Iraq war, most historians credit Iran with starting the war.

For years, Iran and Iraq shared navigation rights on the Shatt al Arab, a crucial waterway that is on the border of the two nations and runs into the Persian Gulf... Very crucial to the Iraqi economy... The Ayatollah revoked Iraqi navigation right so the Shatt al Arab river channel. Also, Iran kept backing militant Shiite groups in Iraq to attack Sunnis in terrorist campaigns...

Saddam ordered his units to make VERY LIMITED movements into Iran just to let Iran know he wasn't happy... Also, it would increase his bargaining power during talks with the Ayatollah... It didn't work like he thought, but the point is Iran basically started the war.

Iraq's economy was in virtual ruin after the Iran-Iraq war... Iraq needed to sell oil at a high price to recover; Kuwait was stealing Iraqi oil and causing the price to rise... Saddam took measures to stop them.

Well thats the reason people dont send troops into a foregin country without permission. Its the point of sovreignty. If you are there without permission its war.

damn straight

Where there's one, there's bound to be more.
If that was all the sarin they had, why keep it in a crappy old artillery shell? Why not put it in something more sophisticated?

Because they are lame.

Where there's one, there's bound to be more.
If that was all the sarin they had, why keep it in a crappy old artillery shell? Why not put it in something more sophisticated?



They had it in Hussein Missiles and in 500 lb aircraft bombs.

It's a huge country there my friend...he's buried entire fighter jets in the desert so that they weren't fried on the ground during the war..the world let the UN make two attempts in 12 yrs to get him to comply...and we still have sporadic situations pop up...a few missles here..a shell here..more here...buried nuclear documents..not all the scientists allowed to be questioned..

Now..I don't know where they are..for all I know our soldiers could be walking over a huge complex buried under Baghdad..but I am at least prepared to give them the same time the world gave the UN...give the US twelve years to comb that country..


The real question is who gave him the precursors to make the WMDs... THE USA!!!

During the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s, the USA allowed American chemical companies to sell precursors to Iraq... Or the USA bought the precursors and gave them to him....

Iraq was able to produce about 5,000,000 lbs of Mustard gas...

It is true that the U.S. funded Saddam's rise to power and supported him against Iran, but unlike many people, I feel that this is simply more reason why the U.S. should be responsible for his removal rather than saying, "we started this so we can't fix it."
This gives a whole new meaning to the "disposable society". Use Iraq to fight your battle with Iran and then weaken them up with a little Gulf war, then impliment UN sanctions to weaken them a little more, then just walk in and take over. Oh my!!

This gives a whole new meaning to the "disposable society". Use Iraq to fight your battle with Iran and then weaken them up with a little Gulf war, then impliment UN sanctions to weaken them a little more, then just walk in and take over. Oh my!!

Sometimes described as the "let's you and him have a fight" plan.

It's a huge country there my friend...he's buried entire fighter jets in the desert so that they weren't fried on the ground during the war..the world let the UN make two attempts in 12 yrs to get him to comply...and we still have sporadic situations pop up...a few missles here..a shell here..more here...buried nuclear documents..not all the scientists allowed to be questioned..

Now..I don't know where they are..for all I know our soldiers could be walking over a huge complex buried under Baghdad..but I am at least prepared to give them the same time the world gave the UN...give the US twelve years to comb that country..


The real question is who gave him the precursors to make the WMDs... THE USA!!!

During the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s, the USA allowed American chemical companies to sell precursors to Iraq... Or the USA bought the precursors and gave them to him....

Iraq was able to produce about 5,000,000 lbs of Mustard gas...

ahmmm...you forgot more then a few other countries also sold chemical materials to Iraq..no one in Europe wanted another Iranian-style democracy in the area...and everyone assumed that Iran and Iraq would bleed each other dry..which they almost did..as each side was tossing children at the other near the end.

You mean a Sham democracy? Duddn't matter what style of goverment a country has. Only matters who's running it.

You mean a Sham democracy? Duddn't matter what style of goverment a country has. Only matters who's running it.

No..I meant an Iranian-styled theocracy..complete with Iraqi clerics running the show...we had just had returned over a hundred hostages from Iran a year earlier then the Iran-Iraq War...Iran wasn't exactly on our bosom buddy status at the time...yes..we used Iraq as our proxy fighters...damn smart..make them kill each other..meanwhile Iraq was still a buffer to Iranian regional ambitions..just like the Soviets used governments under their influence..so did we...it was just the way things were done...You had the American sphere of influence..and the Soviet sphere of influence..both sides traded, swapped, hamstrung, overturned, and outright conquered other nations to suit their global interests..I'm sure you've studied the Cold War just like I have.

HOW EXACTLY IS AMERICA "ABOVE" THE UN?

HOW EXACTLY IS AMERICA "ABOVE" THE UN?

Quite simple..it's not that the USA is "above" the UN..the UN does not nor has it ever answered to the UN as a legistlative body that has some sort of pseudo-governmental power over it..the UN is a strictly voluntary organization with no teeth...is all bark, and at present the US is severely at odds with some of it's members. The UN has no controlling authority over the citizens of the US, indeed of any of its member states, the only persons who do answer as a group are the Palestinians who are wards of the UN and a few other groups whose very subsistence is reliant on UN generosity.

Even with you trying to present it in the worst possible light its not convincing.

Scud "variants" Gimme a break.

Good Gods...just what do you want?....I mean..seriously..just what "amount" of anything would convince you?

Thousands of liters of Anthrax and Active collaboration with Al Qeada

You forget there were over 270 tons of materials unaccounted for by the UN inspectors..out of the 700 tons of chemical and biological materials identified in their arsenal...UN inspectors only visually verified a large chunk of it being destroyed..and assumed the Iraqis would follow thru on the remainder..I've seen no evidence that would tell me they did in fact destroy the remaining tons of material.

as for what you wanted...let me state something here...at the end of the First Gulf War...and in the Armistice signed by Iraq...they weren't so much as able to have a thimble's worth of ANYTHING, not a shell, not a warhead, not a rocket..NOTHING...so on it's face they were in violation of the Armistice..if you want to get technical about it.

I found out something interesting about anthrax the other day, unless it is well stored and properly maintained it loses all its potency. The same, doubtless is true of many other chemicals (although I wouldn't mind someone who knows a little more about science backing me up on this). Thus the mere fact that there is no proof that these things have been destroyed does not equate to saying that they still exist.

You mean a Sham democracy? Duddn't matter what style of goverment a country has. Only matters who's running it.

No..I meant an Iranian-styled theocracy..complete with Iraqi clerics running the show...we had just had returned over a hundred hostages from Iran a year earlier then the Iran-Iraq War...Iran wasn't exactly on our bosom buddy status at the time...yes..we used Iraq as our proxy fighters...damn smart..make them kill each other..meanwhile Iraq was still a buffer to Iranian regional ambitions..just like the Soviets used governments under their influence..so did we...it was just the way things were done...You had the American sphere of influence..and the Soviet sphere of influence..both sides traded, swapped, hamstrung, overturned, and outright conquered other nations to suit their global interests..I'm sure you've studied the Cold War just like I have.

Are you sure they didnt also want to try and steer Iraq towards something that a PR firm would be proud of. Due to Iraq's secular nature it would have been a prime candidate. And fits in with the Neo-cons stated objective, who lets not forget, were in charge during the 80's, Of establishing a Democratic foothold in the Mideast.