NationStates Jolt Archive

Forums like this put me on edge. I have a feeling that Europeans, especially Western Europeans, don’t like the US too much. Yet each one assures me that any disliking of America primarily stems from the Bush Administration. Now I'm not so sure.
I'm browsing through an old National Geographic (October 1986, Vol 170, No. 4). Too bad I can't post a copy on the Internet, but if you really wanted to see it, I'm sure it's in most any public library. Anyhow, it had a picture describing a protest in the Netherlands. The US, with the Dutch Parliament’s consent, moved cruise missiles to a NATO base at Woensdrecht. It was rather ordinary at the time to have cruise missiles at US bases. In fact, an earlier article in the same issue describes cruise missiles that were stationed at Vanderberg AFB in California. They were generally safe around people.
The Dutch didn't seem to think so. And to show their disinterest, they burned an American flag, met with some jubilation. There's a picture of it on p. 514. Mind you, this was one of the hotter times in the Cold War. A detente was just beginning, but they couldn’t immediately tell that in 1986. Technically, these cruise missiles are also to help defend the Dutch. And yet, they show their gratitude by burning a flag.
Now I know many Europeans believe that their anti-Americanism is a result of the Bush administration's policies. Now, however, I'm suspecting that the problem is much deeper, and far older than that.

In the 1980's there were huge appeasement movements by Europeans to "pull out" of the Cold War in Europe, mainly among the younger generation, not the generation that had actually experienced what happens when you let the enemy get what he wants. Luckily it didn't really take hold, although plenty of anti-US (Sorry, "Anti-Reagan" at that time) propoganda was given as "facts" of why Europe shouldn't support either side anymore.

Personally, I find the blind patriotism of some Americans on the board worrying, and I am no big fan of the US government (current gov at least). My parents have never expressed pro- or anti- US sentiment, so my opinions are my own.

I would not say I am Anti-American. America has many good points and many bad points, just like any other nation.

Personally, I find the blind patriotism of some Americans on the board worrying, and I am no big fan of the US government (current gov at least). My parents have never expressed pro- or anti- US sentiment, so my opinions are my own.

I would not say I am Anti-American. America has many good points and many bad points, just like any other nation.

Personally, I find the blind patriotism of some Americans on the board worrying, and I am no big fan of the US government (current gov at least). My parents have never expressed pro- or anti- US sentiment, so my opinions are my own.

I would not say I am Anti-American. America has many good points and many bad points, just like any other nation.

Is there any problem with loving your nation? Just as any Canadian would love Canada? Just as any British would love Briton?

Technically, these cruise missiles are also to help defend the Dutch. And yet, they show their gratitude by burning a flag.


Technically, these cruise missiles also made everyone that lived close to the US airbase on foreign soil just another set of cases of collateral damage if the birds did fly - this is just a tiny part of the reason for such anti-American sentiment.

If nuclear missiles were launched, its unlikely that anyone would have lived, anywhere, regardless of whether the missiles hit Amsterdam or Yellowknife, Canada.

Personally, I find the blind patriotism of some Americans on the board worrying, and I am no big fan of the US government (current gov at least). My parents have never expressed pro- or anti- US sentiment, so my opinions are my own.

I would not say I am Anti-American. America has many good points and many bad points, just like any other nation.

Is there any problem with loving your nation? Just as any Canadian would love Canada? Just as any British would love Briton?

Hmm, I have expressed myself incorrectly. I was using the more "modern" meaning of "patriotism" which is to love your nation's government and support everything they do.

I am a Briton, by the way. Britian is part of Europe.

As for loving ones nation, I agree that is perfectly ok, but one should not consider it above other ones.

I think GNU was referring to the jingoisim of some US posters on this board, which is indeed disturbing. The whole mentality of "Whatever we do is right because WE'RE doing it and the rest of the world can get stuffed" attitude.

I think GNU was referring to the jingoisim of some US posters on this board, which is indeed disturbing. The whole mentality of "Whatever we do is right because WE'RE doing it and the rest of the world can get stuffed" attitude.

I think GNU was referring to the jingoisim of some US posters on this board, which is indeed disturbing. The whole mentality of "Whatever we do is right because WE'RE doing it and the rest of the world can get stuffed" attitude.

Is there any problem with loving your nation? Just as any Canadian would love Canada? Just as any British would love Briton?

Hmm, I have expressed myself incorrectly. I was using the more "modern" meaning of "patriotism" which is to love your nation's government and support everything they do.

I am a Briton, by the way. Britian is part of Europe.


Britain.

--
Moonshine
CrystalDragon on Espernet IRC
And the award for pedant of the year goes to...

This is a very interesting thread. I've met many Western Europeans who have no problems with me, an American, but they have problems with America as a country.

I think GNU was referring to the jingoisim of some US posters on this board, which is indeed disturbing. The whole mentality of "Whatever we do is right because WE'RE doing it and the rest of the world can get stuffed" attitude.

IMO this just about hits the nail on the head: I'm a Brit who's done a lot of travelling in the US (not just the tourist bits) - I love the country, as a rule I love the people, but when it comes to politics in my experience with a proportion of Americans there is a tendency to avoid any sort of self analysis and something of an unwillingness to see the other side of the argument. This is not general, but happens in some cases in a manner which you do not see to the same extent as in other countries - its covered quite well in "Why Do People Hate America" (can't remember the author, it's not an especially anti US book, by the way). What other country, for example, would even attempt to get away with Guantanamo? I know its a cliche, but does any other developed country have as great a proportion of its peolpe who've never been beyond the borders of their country and when they do (I apologise for this, but it is based on experience) show so little respect for the mores of the country they are in? Britain comes a very close second on the latter point and I know that this does not apply to all Americans, but its the evidence of my own eyes and ears.
Currently, I have a great problem with the policies of both the US and UK governments, especially concerning the Middle East (I'm not going to try to drag that argument up again though). I also dislike the fact that you go to a place like Prague for example, a beautiful city and you see a glorious nineteenth century building with plate glass windows and a McDonalds sign stuck on it. Now I know this isn't the fault of Americans, but cultural imperialism, whether by force majeur or via the market will always create resentment. However, the same country which gave us McDonalds, formula Hollywood films and MTV has also given us F Scott Fitzgerald, Andy Warhol and Frank Zappa (personal preference showing through there, but anyway...) - can any country have the US's predominence in the world today and not inspire resentment?

Would the poster of this thread then accept that anti-Europeanism is an American tradition.

Would the poster of this thread then accept that, if the title of this post is true, anti-Europeanism is an American tradition.

It the title of this post is true, would its poster then accept that "Anti-Europeanism is an American tradition"

It the title of this post is true, would its poster then accept that "Anti-Europeanism is an American tradition"

If nuclear missiles were launched, its unlikely that anyone would have lived, anywhere, regardless of whether the missiles hit Amsterdam or Yellowknife, Canada.

Somehow I don't think your post was an attempt at showing the wisdom of the theory of Mutually Assured Destruction. If it was, then the missiles aren't actually there to be used: it is their threat which is sufficient. However, if you are living next to an airbase with nuclear warheads on it, then even if the missiles are never intended to be fired one still faces the risk of accidents occuring... ergo, anti-American sentiments.

I think GNU was referring to the jingoisim of some US posters on this board, which is indeed disturbing. The whole mentality of "Whatever we do is right because WE'RE doing it and the rest of the world can get stuffed" attitude.

IMO this just about hits the nail on the head
I couldn't agree more, and I dislike that type of poster every bit as much as you seem to, but the biggest problem with that is it leads to generalizations of ALL Americans on the part of the rest of the world. Yes, our (me = american) administration has pissed off countless people in its foreign policy and blind egotistical decisions, but somehow that's turned into AMERICA IS EVIL AND SHOULD DIE!!!111. I'm going to Europe in a month for the first time and all I hear from my program leaders is "don't make a point of being american, keep your head down, dont invite any trouble, pay attention, tell people youre from canada" (I kind of plan to go around say I'm from new mexico and mumble the 'new' part so they dont hear it too well ;)). And this is what bothers me more than the stupid attitude of our administration and some posters here... the generalization that emerged from it.

Is there any problem with loving your nation?

yes, when love for the land and the people turns into blind support for anything the ruling class does. which is apparently not too far of a jump.

Is there any problem with loving your nation?

yes, when love for the land and the people turns into blind support for anything the ruling class does. which is apparently not too far of a jump.

That's a pretty tall assumption for someone who loves his country. Perhaps he REALLY DOES support the government and isn't brainwashed by them? Ever thought of that? Or are all Americans brainwashed fools?

That's a pretty tall assumption for someone who loves his country. Perhaps he REALLY DOES support the government and isn't brainwashed by them? Ever thought of that? Or are all Americans brainwashed fools?

doesn't matter if they really do support it or are just brainwashed. the blind obedience is a bad thing that should be stopped at all costs. so yeah, fuck "loving your nation" since it's inevitable result is 'patriotic' jingoism.

That's a pretty tall assumption for someone who loves his country. Perhaps he REALLY DOES support the government and isn't brainwashed by them? Ever thought of that? Or are all Americans brainwashed fools?

doesn't matter if they really do support it or are just brainwashed. the blind obedience is a bad thing that should be stopped at all costs. so yeah, f--- "loving your nation" since it's inevitable result is 'patriotic' jingoism.

your right.

**** Patriotism

know what? Screw the government too! We should all just be one huge world with no government or nations. Yeah, who wants to be a blind fool loving his nation? America? Canada? Britain? Who needs em?


Yeah, only fools love their nation. People who love their nation are obviously blind to the world.

I am an american, I love my country. I like to travel, but I would not want to live anywhere else. This is my home. However, I do not blindly believe that everything the government does is right. Just like a person, the government cannot always be right. I think its current policies are bad for America. That is why I have such strong dislike for the current regime.

your right.

**** Patriotism

know what? Screw the government too! We should all just be one huge world with no government or nations. Yeah, who wants to be a blind fool loving his nation? America? Canada? Britain? Who needs em?


Yeah, only fools love their nation. People who love their nation are obviously blind to the world.

"patriotism: a menace to liberty" by emma goldman (http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/goldman/sp000064.html)

**** Patriotism

know what? Screw the government too! We should all just be one huge world with no government or nations. Yeah, who wants to be a blind fool loving his nation? America? Canada? Britain? Who needs em?


Sounds good to me.

Is there any problem with loving your nation?

yes, when love for the land and the people turns into blind support for anything the ruling class does. which is apparently not too far of a jump.

That's a pretty tall assumption for someone who loves his country. Perhaps he REALLY DOES support the government and isn't brainwashed by them? Ever thought of that? Or are all Americans brainwashed fools?

Loving your husband/wife and holding them accountable for the bad things they do is the best way to prove that you love them. Turning a blind eye to the crimes they commit and the abuses they take part in only shows apathy, not love. If you truly love your country, you can tell your country when its wrong.

Don't be fooled or scared into thinking that disagreeing with your government is the same thing as not loving it with all your heart. Some of our greatest patriots spent their entire lives telling the US it was doing something wrong. Its that courage to stand up to those you love that makes for greatness.

I'm not asking that you change your mind about supporting the US in all things, but I do ask that you look long and hard at why you are doing that, and if you're justified in doing so.

I really do hope that you take the time to study everything you believe in, not to disprove it, and not to prove it; but rather to study it objectively and come to a conclusion.

Fact is that Europeans do not hate America nor Americans. What 'we' hate is the instant knee jerk, non analytical, vapid society that is America.

Which is sad because the US is still held up as a bastion of freedom and democratic process.....for some reason.

That and we can see as outsiders some of the hypocrisy that the US stands for.

Ultimately thought there is no major nation that is completely free of criticism.

Would the poster of this thread then accept that anti-Europeanism is an American tradition.
Yes. However, anti-Europeanism, or anti anything, is rarely on an individual by individual basis. I see many problems that Europe can fix itself, but it turns a blind eye toward them. These problems will eventually corode European society as we know it, and that's a very scary thought for me. I guess it's fair to say that anti-Europeanism is chiding more than anything else. Anti-Americanism, however, does seem harsh.

Technically, these cruise missiles are also to help defend the Dutch. And yet, they show their gratitude by burning a flag.
Now I know many Europeans believe that their anti-Americanism is a result of the Bush administration's policies. Now, however, I'm suspecting that the problem is much deeper, and far older than that.
I think there came a point when the Americans simply outstayed their welcome in Europe, but didn't realise it. From the early 1980s onwards was it, probably. No use complaining about it, the US has little patience for people who piss it off either, as evidenced by their reaction to France's refusal to endorse a second UN Resolution on Iraq. It's just the way people's opinions are.

Forums like this put me on edge. I have a feeling that Europeans, especially Western Europeans, don’t like the US too much. Yet each one assures me that any disliking of America primarily stems from the Bush Administration. Now I'm not so sure.
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Nope. It was Reagan. That idiot nearly got us [The United States, yes, I'm from the US] bombed by Russia twice just because he had no clue what the hell was going on. Of course now he can't remember... HAHAHAHAHA. Stupid father of all neo-con ignoramuses should've taken better care of health care instead of glorifying the "ideal american" of a cowboy idiot that can't tell the difference between who said what.
It makes it awefully hard on the world if the leader of the most powerful country makes outrageous claims about another of the nuclear powers, despite the fact that the Cold War was supposed to have ended.

Bush Sr. wasn't that bad. I mean, at least he was smart. Maybe his intelligence was what shied the American public for voting for him. Sure, Clinton wasn't bad, and other countries liked him too, but now look who we're stuck with! Little Georgy Porgy. Why shouldn't I nickname him? That's how he belittles his staff members and coworkers, he gives them names. What an a$$hole.

But I assure you, the main reasons people hate us is Bush Jr. and Reagan.
And Nixon, but then again, noone liked Nixon... oh who am I kidding. This country is filled with idiots who supported Nixon and his "War on Privacy" or whatever the hell his spinstersmight have wanted to call it.

Idiots. I'm moving to New Zealand where it might be boring as hell, but we don't have to worry about nuclear fallout from alleged allied nations.