NationStates Jolt Archive

Take a look:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

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"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

Take a look:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm


Yeah, that all sounds right. [edit] I didn't read the whole thing, I just read the 14 things that indicate fascism.

*yawn*

Unless you show me the part of the U.S. Constitution that SAYS that the U.S. must remain a fascist government, then the U.S. is not fasict.

So what if it holds similar characteristics? I bet I can take any government of any nation and associate it with facism.

What country is extremely nationalistic, is considering an amendment to ban gay marriage and a law to bring back the draft, has created two patriot acts and has only two political parties that agree on everything except gay marriage and abortion?

Unless you show me the part of the U.S. Constitution that SAYS that the U.S. must remain a fascist government, then the U.S. is not fasict.

So what if it holds similar characteristics? I bet I can take any government of any nation and associate it with facism.

Focusing on the name rather than characteristics. If it walks like a fascists, looks like a fascist, and shouts like a fascist, it might just be a fascist.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

What country is extremely nationalistic, is considering an amendment to ban gay marriage and a law to bring back the draft, has created two patriot acts and has only two political parties that agree on everything except gay marriage and abortion?

Unless you show me the part of the U.S. Constitution that SAYS that the U.S. must remain a fascist government, then the U.S. is not fasict.

So what if it holds similar characteristics? I bet I can take any government of any nation and associate it with facism.

Focusing on the name rather than characteristics. If it walks like a fascists, looks like a fascist, and shouts like a fascist, it might just be a fascist.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg
things arent that clearcut

Why? It fits the warning signs. Why is the US different?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

omg that is insane

Why? It fits the warning signs. Why is the US different?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

its the great satan and is automatically facist no matter what their policies are

Because, the fact of the matter is on some things, your distorting things or flat out lying.

The two that stand out are the draft and the two political parties agreeing on everything. The bill to bring back the draft has very little support from politicans, and has no realistic hope of ever passing under the current circumstances. And the two parties disagree on al ot more than "Gay marriage and abortion" - taxes, foreign policy, the Patriot Act, where funding should go, and school vouchers are just 5 additional differences.

Someone could pull 14 criteria out of anywhere and say any country is a fascist. Most of this criteria are vague enough (Especially "control of the mass media") to apply to most any government in the world. Others don't apply to the United States, although they might seem to.

Obession with Crime and Punishment, for example. The US has the highest rates of crime of any Western Country, I think. Thats why we have the largest prison population. Not because we're becoming fascist.

Another is the "Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and arts". The liberal dominate a lot of the universities, especially the faculty outside of the business schools. (Hm, some wonder the people who are actually educated in that field are usually for the free market).

Because, the fact of the matter is on some things, your distorting things or flat out lying.

The two that stand out are the draft and the two political parties agreeing on everything. The bill to bring back the draft has very little support from politicans, and has no realistic hope of ever passing under the current circumstances. And the two parties disagree on al ot more than "Gay marriage and abortion" - taxes, foreign policy, the Patriot Act, where funding should go, and school vouchers are just 5 additional differences.

Someone could pull 14 criteria out of anywhere and say any country is a fascist. Most of this criteria are vague enough (Especially "control of the mass media") to apply to most any government in the world. Others don't apply to the United States, although they might seem to.

Obession with Crime and Punishment, for example. The US has the highest rates of crime of any Western Country, I think. Thats why we have the largest prison population. Not because we're becoming fascist.

Another is the "Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and arts". The liberal dominate a lot of the universities, especially the faculty outside of the business schools. (Hm, some wonder the people who are actually educated in that field are usually for the free market).

5, 6, 10, and 11 don't describe the US, though I wish 10 were true

5, 6, 10, and 11 don't describe the US, though I wish 10 were true

First, 5 and 6 are somewhat true. The US, though not overtly sexist, does value traits considered masculine (power, greatness, etc.) better than traits considered feminine (peacefulness, tenderness, etc.) and expects women to adopt "masculine" (read authoritarian) traits to compete with men in the workplace and in politics.

As for 6, the words "wardrobe malfunction" must ring a bell. Also, when is the last time you saw a movie or show that portrayed anarchists, Marxists, or even Randian capitalists, in a good light.

As for 10, why would you want that to be true? The workers are the backbone of the country. They produce pretty much everything. They are the real creators of wealth.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

As for 10, why would you want that to be true? The workers are the backbone of the country. They produce pretty much everything. They are the real creators of wealth.You answered the question. The workers should not be exploited by labor unions

As for 10, why would you want that to be true? The workers are the backbone of the country. They produce pretty much everything. They are the real creators of wealth.You answered the question. The workers should not be exploited by labor unions

yeah, yeah, true dat

You answered the question. The workers should not be exploited by labor unions

But you believe they should be exploited by capitalists. That is what is meant by opposing labor movements.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

5, 6, 10, and 11 don't describe the US, though I wish 10 were true

First, 5 and 6 are somewhat true. The US, though not overtly sexist, does value traits considered masculine (power, greatness, etc.) better than traits considered feminine (peacefulness, tenderness, etc.) and expects women to adopt "masculine" (read authoritarian) traits to compete with men in the workplace and in politics.

As for 6, the words "wardrobe malfunction" must ring a bell. Also, when is the last time you saw a movie or show that portrayed anarchists, Marxists, or even Randian capitalists, in a good light.

As for 10, why would you want that to be true? The workers are the backbone of the country. They produce pretty much everything. They are the real creators of wealth.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

Lies, lies, and generalizations. First off, tell me a nation THAT NEVER viewed women as second-class citizens? Does that mean America is the ONLY fasict nation here?
Anti-abortion. Yes, absolutely everyone here is AGAINST abortion. Less power for women! *waves signs and crap*
Homophobic....I won't even touch this one because it's wrong in so many ways.

6. . A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes? excesses.
Freedom of the press, anyone?

Responding to your asking of when have we ever seen a movie that portrayed anarchists in a good light, when have you ever taken WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT? They want goddamn explosions and gunfights. Not anarchists or communists.

5, 6, 10, and 11 can accurately describe the direction of pressure, i.e. what "neoconservatives" wish to do.

#5: Countless pundits and idealogues closely associated with the current majority party have espoused strongly the view that the sexes should be treated differently - and yes, specifically that abortion should be illegal.

#6 and #11: The FCC has been "cracking down" enforcement of "decency standards." Obscenity or decency have been long cited by totalitarian states as the reasons for oppressing artists, free thinkers, and political dissidents.

#10: Organized labor has little influence on the majority party, having consistently favored Democrats over Republicans. The slow degradation of real benefits and wages, the exportation of jobs overseas, and the increasing importation of illegal workers from outside the country all point to the undeniable fact that labor unions have declined in power over the past two decades.

I notice you do not even mention #14 - election fraud - or #13, corruption and cronyism.

Nearly every item cited on the list is (a) characteristic of facist nations and (b) either coming into practice in the US, an evident goal of the current ruling party, or (as in #13 and #14) difficult to prove, but highly suggestive of what needs to have close attention paid to (re: Diebold election machines, no-bid contracts, etc).

However, many items on the list do not apply nearly as well to other nations. I can think of few nations matching the entire list nearly as well. Those of us familiar with history are quite familiar with the precedents and we've been worrying about this for a while. Every year that passes, the symptoms grow stronger; technology, size, and the vast experience accumulated by the world's experts with respect to propaganda appear to be the most powerful differentiating factors in the overall political atmosphere from states freshly started on the path down facism.

A clarification on #5: I don't mean just "differently," as in "wear different clothes most of the time and stuff." I mean differently as in the old "women's sphere" - i.e., stay in the kitchen, raise kids, stay out of the military and politics, and obey your hubby.

In this day and age, of course, the political right wing's most vocal anti-feminists within the mainstream media are young to middle aged women, usually blonde and very photogenic. They've learned a lot; such are the most powerful tools against feminism.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

Lies, lies, and generalizations. First off, tell me a nation THAT NEVER viewed women as second-class citizens? Does that mean America is the ONLY fasict nation here?
Anti-abortion. Yes, absolutely everyone here is AGAINST abortion. Less power for women! *waves signs and crap*
Homophobic....I won't even touch this one because it's wrong in so many ways.

6. . A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes? excesses.
Freedom of the press, anyone?

Responding to your asking of when have we ever seen a movie that portrayed anarchists in a good light, when have you ever taken WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT? They want goddamn explosions and gunfights. Not anarchists or communists.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

Please note the above. Is there not a certain person trying to push an amendment into your constitution banning gay marriage?

6. . A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes excesses.

Please note the above here. Perhaps if you read it again you would understand the point being made here.

With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

Aliens, robots, and madmen with fingers made of gold.

[quote=Colodia]5With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

I'll get to what you said above later.

Let's see the bad guys in our latest movies.

City of Troy (Troy)
Drug smugglers (Bad Boys 2_
Julis Ceaser's son (Gladiator)
The King (Shrek?)


etc. etc.

So tell me....what kind of bad guys are you looking at?

this is so retarded, no matter how much you...... people want it to be america isnt the fascist police state that keeps oppressing the proletariate that you want it to be! :x

this is so retarded, no matter how much you...... people want it to be america isnt the fascist police state that keeps oppressing the proletariate that you want it to be! :x

hell no its an oligarchy controlled by zog oppressing the white man

this is so retarded, no matter how much you...... people want it to be america isnt the fascist police state that keeps oppressing the proletariate that you want it to be! :x

hell no its an oligarchy controlled by zog oppressing the white man

what the hell is a zog?

5With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

I'll get to what you said above later.

Let's see the bad guys in our latest movies.

City of Troy (Troy)
Drug smugglers (Bad Boys 2_
Julis Ceaser's son (Gladiator)
The King (Shrek?)


etc. etc.

So tell me....what kind of bad guys are you looking at?

I dont see gunfights and explosions in most of them...sorry.

Look at James Bond maybe? Hell, a Tom Clancy movie is usually a good example too. (Except for Sum of All Fears, which they rewrote to contain nazi's instead of arabs for some reason.)

Not so much anymore now that the USSR isn't a scapegoat...but western movies do victimise their political enemies.

5With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

I'll get to what you said above later.

Let's see the bad guys in our latest movies.

City of Troy (Troy)
Drug smugglers (Bad Boys 2_
Julis Ceaser's son (Gladiator)
The King (Shrek?)


etc. etc.

So tell me....what kind of bad guys are you looking at?

I dont see gunfights and explosions in most of them...sorry.

Look at James Bond maybe? Hell, a Tom Clancy movie is usually a good example too. (Except for Sum of All Fears, which they rewrote to contain nazi's instead of arabs for some reason.)

Not so much anymore now that the USSR isn't a scapegoat...but western movies do victimise their political enemies.

At first, you talked as if all our movies downplayed anarchists, communists, political enemies, and whatnot.


Changed your attitude now?

Take a look:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

5With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

I'll get to what you said above later.

Let's see the bad guys in our latest movies.

City of Troy (Troy)
Drug smugglers (Bad Boys 2_
Julis Ceaser's son (Gladiator)
The King (Shrek?)


etc. etc.

So tell me....what kind of bad guys are you looking at?

I dont see gunfights and explosions in most of them...sorry.

Look at James Bond maybe? Hell, a Tom Clancy movie is usually a good example too. (Except for Sum of All Fears, which they rewrote to contain nazi's instead of arabs for some reason.)

Not so much anymore now that the USSR isn't a scapegoat...but western movies do victimise their political enemies.

At first, you talked as if all our movies downplayed anarchists, communists, political enemies, and whatnot.


Changed your attitude now?

I never said "all". I said "many" and that attitude stands.

5With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

I'll get to what you said above later.

Let's see the bad guys in our latest movies.

City of Troy (Troy)
Drug smugglers (Bad Boys 2_
Julis Ceaser's son (Gladiator)
The King (Shrek?)


etc. etc.

So tell me....what kind of bad guys are you looking at?

I dont see gunfights and explosions in most of them...sorry.

Look at James Bond maybe? Hell, a Tom Clancy movie is usually a good example too. (Except for Sum of All Fears, which they rewrote to contain nazi's instead of arabs for some reason.)

Not so much anymore now that the USSR isn't a scapegoat...but western movies do victimise their political enemies.

At first, you talked as if all our movies downplayed anarchists, communists, political enemies, and whatnot.


Changed your attitude now?

I never said "all". I said "many" and that attitude stands.
Yeah, and what exactly is wrong with downplaying Communists and Anarchists? Anarchists want the government dissolved, if you want to get downright technical, that's a crime. The U.S. Government is a legally sovereign government, as are the governments of all 50 states that endorse the federal government. The notion of Anarchy in the U.S. is laughable.

Communism has failed. Cuba will be U.S. or European property once Castro dies. Russia is trying to become Capitalist. China is becoming capitalist very rapidly. Whats wrong with making fun of losers?

hell no its an oligarchy controlled by zog oppressing the white man

what the hell is a zog?

ZOG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government)

hell no its an oligarchy controlled by zog oppressing the white man

what the hell is a zog?

ZOG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government) :lol: :D :lol: omg so funny

I never said "all". I said "many" and that attitude stands.
Yeah, and what exactly is wrong with downplaying Communists and Anarchists? Anarchists want the government dissolved, if you want to get downright technical, that's a crime. The U.S. Government is a legally sovereign government, as are the governments of all 50 states that endorse the federal government. The notion of Anarchy in the U.S. is laughable.

Communism has failed. Cuba will be U.S. or European property once Castro dies. Russia is trying to become Capitalist. China is becoming capitalist very rapidly. Whats wrong with making fun of losers?

Since when is expressing a political viewpoint a crime?!?!? Are you implying that anarchists should be jailed because of their beliefs that run counter to what the government wants? Not all anarchists are lunatics that go around blowing everything up. You watch too many movies, it would seem.

By the way. As I am constantly stating, The USSR, China, and their satellites were/are state-capitalist regimes. Not Communist.

And when the US collapses on itself as it inevitably will sometime in the future, I hope you or your descendants remember your comment "Whats wrong with making fun of losers?".

Take a look:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

Hehe, I subscribe to that magazine! 8)

hell no its an oligarchy controlled by zog oppressing the white man

what the hell is a zog?

Zionist Occupation Government
A conspiracy theory that the US (or UN, NWO {New World Order }, or whatever flavor of secret international government you like) is really run by Jews.

What country is extremely nationalistic, is considering an amendment to ban gay marriage and a law to bring back the draft, has created two patriot acts and has only two political parties that agree on everything except gay marriage and abortion?

Unless you show me the part of the U.S. Constitution that SAYS that the U.S. must remain a fascist government, then the U.S. is not fasict.

So what if it holds similar characteristics? I bet I can take any government of any nation and associate it with facism.

Focusing on the name rather than characteristics. If it walks like a fascists, looks like a fascist, and shouts like a fascist, it might just be a fascist.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg


Are you done making an ass out of yourself?

I never said "all". I said "many" and that attitude stands.
Yeah, and what exactly is wrong with downplaying Communists and Anarchists? Anarchists want the government dissolved, if you want to get downright technical, that's a crime. The U.S. Government is a legally sovereign government, as are the governments of all 50 states that endorse the federal government. The notion of Anarchy in the U.S. is laughable.

Communism has failed. Cuba will be U.S. or European property once Castro dies. Russia is trying to become Capitalist. China is becoming capitalist very rapidly. Whats wrong with making fun of losers?

Since when is expressing a political viewpoint a crime?!?!? Are you implying that anarchists should be jailed because of their beliefs that run counter to what the government wants? Not all anarchists are lunatics that go around blowing everything up. You watch too many movies, it would seem.

By the way. As I am constantly stating, The USSR, China, and their satellites were/are state-capitalist regimes. Not Communist.

And when the US collapses on itself as it inevitably will sometime in the future, I hope you or your descendants remember your comment "Whats wrong with making fun of losers?".
If Such a thing happens, people will of course make fun of us. You're making fun of the U.S. right now, so whats going to stop foreigners from making fun of the U.S. if we ever fall from the heights of power? Fact is, right now, we're in control. Hope that doesn't hurt you too much, it probably won't, since you can't admit it.

Are you done making an ass out of yourself?
You're talking about Letila, Great Advocate and Architect of Holy Anarchist Glory, so I'd guess that the answer to your question is a resounding "no".

As SOON as I saw the title of this thread, and the author of same, I knew exactly what would be said therein. My guesses were absolutely correct, too. You're so sadly predictable, Letila.

Stop wanking, Letila. At first I thought you were some 13-year old girl, but now I realize that you're probably a 13-year old middle schooler male with blue hair and multiple piercings (because it's so unique!), who hangs out with a bunch of self-annointed anarchist-saviors-of-the-world who discuss their oh-so-glorious 'plans' to save humanity and complain about the evil capitalists. Don't worry, Letila, my barely pubescent friend, this idiotic wanking stage of yours will pass, and you will eventually learn some sense.

Much of what the US and indeed all govts do differs from fascism only in degree. Govts are devoted to the systematic application of agressive violence. It's all they do. Everything is done at bayonet point and the only difference between political parties is who they want to point the bayonet at.

Much of what the US and indeed all govts do differs from fascism only in degree. Govts are devoted to the systematic application of agressive violence. It's all they do. Everything is done at bayonet point and the only difference between political parties is who they want to point the bayonet at.

huh..... never thought of it like that. if one thing that can be universally said of all politicians is that they only understand force, and strenght to accomplish their goals

Indeed. I believe the govt should be held up to the same moral standards as anyone else. Thus: War is murder, conscription is slavery, taxation is robbery. People usually have a problem accepting the last one but I don't see any way round it. You've got to ask, "what would happen if I did what the govt did", Common responses...

"You voted so you implicitly agreed": I didn't vote. Even if I did, if there was a vote to kill your dad or mine I'd vote for yours. Doesn't mean I agree your dad should die, just that it is the lesser of the evils.

"You use public roads, etc": But all govt services were provided by an earlier act of theft and therefore the govt doesn't actually own them legitimately. Even if I don't use them I'm still charged tax. Even if the govt does provide useful services in return this is still a crime called "extortion", a form of robbery. If anyone else "sold" their services this way it would be a protection racket. Imagine if McDonalds started to "charge for" their services via taxation!

"If you don't like it move somewhere else": But the govt doesn't own the country and has no right to charge me for being there. Ultimately it's claim of ownership has nothing to do with earning the land by bringing it into production (the only legitimate way to aquire ownership) but simply occupying it with military force.

If I want to secede from my govt I ought to be able to secede without leaving the country and pay for my own schools etc. I also ought to be able to take my property with me so that I could buy some land and then declare it no longer part of the UK. If I find it hard to defend from criminals that's my problem, I'll hire security.

"The majority want it": So? People should all be subject to the same moral code no matter how numerous their gang is. Imagine if the majority wanted to enslave blacks or kill the jews. This would clearly be immoral. So how then is it okay for the majority to steal your property, tell you what chemicals you may inject into your body or forbid you from opening a grocer's shop without a licence? The difference is only in degree (although it is of course a big difference in degree, I'm not equating regulation of the fruit industry with the haulocaust!)

Remember, every law is a threat of violence. Do as you're told or men with guns will come and kidnap (arrest) you. Thus the law should only forbid actions which it is acceptable to use violence to prevent, i.e. defending yourself and others from crimes against person and property and arguably some special provisions for children and animals (I'd use violence to stop a 5 year old taking heroin or to stop someone torturing a dog for fun).

Further, law enforcement should not itself be financed via taxation, which is itself agression. People are capable of making their own arrangements for protection. This sounds crazy to us today but govt justice is historically the exception, not the rule. For private justice systems see...

http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm

See Lysander Spooner, "No Treason" for the illegitimacy of govt.

http://praxeology.net/LS-NT-0.htm

Fact is, right now, we're in control.

Exactly what are you in control of? Tell me, so I'll know for what reasons to worship you.

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism -- by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." – Ayn Rand, LA Times, 9/2/62

To Libertanovia:

Any form of government involves some erosion of civil liberties and a reduction of negative freedoms. However at the same time a government serves to protect civil liberties and the lives of its citizens. One cannot make arguments such as: taxation is robbery and government is slavery without acknowledging that without such violations other more extreme forms of "robbery" and "slavery" would be all too pervasive, only this time without the protections of law and order which a state is capable of providing. Whilst a liberal democracy is not a perfect institution, it is the least imperfect and thus one which should continue to exist.

It is perfectly acceptable to acknowledge the inconsistencies in another persons ideology so long as you are capable of acknowledging yours.

On what grounds do you base the assertion that "without such violations other more extreme forms of "robbery" and "slavery" would be all too pervasive"? This is a widely held but false view. People simply assume this without bothering to check because they're used to nothing else. Private law and order has, however, been supplied at many times in history.

Common to all systems of private law have been: respect for personal liberty (including property rights) and the fact that when govt law was imposed there was a marked worsening in crime. Private law is more effective, more moral and more efficient than govt law. This is a historical fact, not a utopian fantasy.

Check out this link. Rod T Long's articles on Anglo Saxon and Icelandic law and "Defending a Free Nation" will be of particular interest.

http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm

In light of this, what exactly is the inconsistency in my ideology to which you refer?

5With regard to your comment about people wanting explosions and gunfights, this is true, but have you ever noticed who the bad guys are in many of these movies?

I'll get to what you said above later.

Let's see the bad guys in our latest movies.

City of Troy (Troy)
Drug smugglers (Bad Boys 2_
Julis Ceaser's son (Gladiator)
The King (Shrek?)


etc. etc.

So tell me....what kind of bad guys are you looking at?

I dont see gunfights and explosions in most of them...sorry.

Look at James Bond maybe? Hell, a Tom Clancy movie is usually a good example too. (Except for Sum of All Fears, which they rewrote to contain nazi's instead of arabs for some reason.)

Not so much anymore now that the USSR isn't a scapegoat...but western movies do victimise their political enemies.

At first, you talked as if all our movies downplayed anarchists, communists, political enemies, and whatnot.


Changed your attitude now?

I never said "all". I said "many" and that attitude stands.
*mutters something about attitude adjustments*

We can agree to disagree, for I don't see where this can go any further. I'm all for debating this....rather odd assumption that the U.S. is a fasict state. But everyone else's comments have been replied to.

On what grounds do you base the assertion that "without such violations other more extreme forms of "robbery" and "slavery" would be all too pervasive"? This is a widely held but false view. People simply assume this without bothering to check because they're used to nothing else. Private law and order has, however, been supplied at many times in history.

Common to all systems of private law have been: respect for personal liberty (including property rights) and the fact that when govt law was imposed there was a marked worsening in crime. Private law is more effective, more moral and more efficient than govt law. This is a historical fact, not a utopian fantasy.

Check out this link. Rod T Long's articles on Anglo Saxon and Icelandic law and "Defending a Free Nation" will be of particular interest.

http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm

In light of this, what exactly is the inconsistency in my ideology to which you refer?

A system of private law and order would be one which inevitably orientated around power and wealth since there would be no legal factors by which they could be regulated. I would rather choose a system designed to protect all citizens equally and is based upon a complex legal system and the principle of justice, rather than ad-hoc conflicting systems with a considerable bias towards the most wealthy.

The link you supplied stated that the basis for an anarchist society would be "common interest". Until the time when all human beings are capable of thinking rationally and reach a consensus regarding such an "interest" clearly there would be no agreed upon common interest in society. Additionally all it would take would be for one person to deviate from this "common interest" and the anarchistic society by its very nature would have no processes by which it could deal with this person.

Outside large firms and corporations (hence the profit and power orientation) I am not aware of the use of a privatised system of law and order that has been successful, particularly in modern history. You claim to have examples, could you list them.

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception. I do not agree with this, hence my rejection of the ideology.

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception.

false.

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception. I do not agree with this, hence my rejection of the ideology.

He isn't talking about anarchism, but stateless capitalism.

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism -- by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." – Ayn Rand, LA Times, 9/2/62

Ayn Rand never heard of anarcho-communism.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception.

false.

Unfortunately that is in the only society in which it could possibly work and even then I would have my doubts.

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception.

false.

Unfortunately that is in the only society in which it could possibly work and even then I would have my doubts.

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception.

false.

Unfortunately that is in the only society in which it could possibly work.

The whole basis of anarchism is that all human beings are rational, intelligent and altruistic without exception.

false.

Unfortunately that is in the only society in which it could possibly work.

Unfortunately that is in the only society in which it could possibly work.

Why?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

Unfortunately that is in the only society in which it could possibly work.

Why?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

Because without regulatory institutions such as law and order people would be free to do as they pleased.

Because without regulatory institutions such as law and order people would be free to do as they pleased.

So? Are you afraid that someone somewhere will do something sexual involving rope or whips or maybe smoke pot? Why do you care if people want to enjoy life?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

Because without regulatory institutions such as law and order people would be free to do as they pleased.

So? Are you afraid that someone somewhere will do something sexual involving rope or whips or maybe smoke pot? Why do you care if people want to enjoy life?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

he meant as in kill people, rape and the like

he meant as in kill people, rape and the like

Doesn't that happen [i[with[/i] government?

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg