NationStates Jolt Archive


Dialectics and Libertarianism/Authoritarianism

Stirner
01-06-2004, 23:18
I originally wrote this for my web forums at http://www.virtualdave.ca/discussiongroup in the "The Pope is Catholic" forum. You may find other interesting things there.


I don't pretend to know much about Hegel, but I have an interest in dialectics as I understand them as a tool of concept-formation. Hegel is soundly criticised by both Karl Popper and Ayn Rand, and I think it would be worth my time to probe further.

I was introduced to dialectics through Robert Leonhard in The Principles of Warfare for the Information Age, specifically in his chapters entitled The Law of Duality and The Arguments of War. Leonhard sought to replace the aphorisms that propagate the modern list of principles of warfare with paired exclusive dualities (e.g.: dislocation/confrontation or distribution/concentration). The art of war then becomes striking the proper balance at the proper time between the paired dualities.

The key with dialectics is that it isn't about opposites, it is about thesis and antithesis.

Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis

Take motion. If motion is a thesis expressed as a vector quantity, it has an antithesis in rest which is a non-vector. 20 km/h east has an opposite of 20 km/h west, and an antithesis of being at rest.

After a bit of thought, I recognized that dialectics are represented in mathematics by absolute values. Maybe you remember this from high school math? An absolute value is expressed like this: |x|

Plot it on a two-axis graph and it looks like a 'v' with:
(-2, 2) (-1, 1) (0, 0) (1, 1) (2, 2), etc.

Here's a quick math lesson (http://www.purplemath.com/modules/graphabs.htm) with graphs if you need a refresher.

I've used dialectics to contemplate a few subjects. Chaos as the antithesis of Order. Death as the antithesis of Life. (Static) Equilibrium as the antithesis of tension.

It turns out I'm in good company. Ayn Rand said that "Life is motion, the antithesis of life is stillness, the essence of death."

How does this apply to politics? Because of a lack of understanding or respect for the prefixes 'il' and 'non', especially in the context of 'illegal' and 'nonlegal'. Most people consider them synonymous. 'Illegal' is in fact the opposite of 'legal', while 'nonlegal' is the antithesis.

I was quizzed by a friend recently about (among other things political) my views on marriage between homosexuals. He found my response difficult to comprehend, and I think his confusion is typical of our society.

The common position in the gay marriage debate is between those that would make it legal and those that want it to remain illegal. Everyone is expected to take one of those positions (usually in line with their general political disposition as well as religious and cultural beliefs). I take the position that gay marriage and traditional marriage should be non-legal, that is to say having nothing to do with law and the state.

Marriage is a declaration and continued recognition of an exclusive commitment between two people. It has a primary and secondary audience. The primary audience is: the two people and God (or in secular marriages just the two people). The secondary audience is the community of the married couple, so they know of this exclusive commitment. That's why marriage ceremonies are traditionally public and there are visible symbols of marriage (e.g.: wedding rings).

In an authoritarian society everything that is not permitted is forbidden. There is very little that is 'non-legal'. Our society often demands a determination of legality/illegality in a great many things, when another viable (and correct) position is: "It's no business of the law."

One of the tenets of modern western society is supposedly a separation of church and state. How did marriage slip through the cracks? The answer probably has something to do with tax benefits or somesuch. State: "Hey, want us to give you a tax rebate? Okay, just register your marriage with Us and say we are a legitimate authority. Be sure your marriage conforms to our boundaries."

Proponents of gay marriage would say that they want gay commitments to be recognized and accepted just like traditional marriages. But legality doesn't change anything about either the primary or secondary audiences of the marriage. We can assume that the two people making the commitment will recognize it even if the state doesn't. And that if one or both of them doesn't recognize it, no state law will make them. Likewise God's acceptance or non-acceptance is not likely influenced by a state law. The secondary audience (the community) is also not state-dependent. To gain acceptance of the community, gay marriage proponents need to use social change, not legal change. Of course they've been doing this social change very well, parallel with legal change. Through education, familiarity, and culture most people are becoming increasingly comfortable with homosexuality. If marriage was non-legal, gay marriage would pretty much be accepted by now. But they want those tax rebates too!

Note that I have no problem with someone refusing to recognize a marriage, gay or otherwise. That's up to them. If they assess a relationship rationally and come to a conclusion about it, for or against its sanctity, that's their business. If they refuse to see it rationally then they are idiots, but there is no law against that. You can't force someone to think.

I predict that we'll soon see a reintroduction of non-traditional marriage-like arrangements, such as polygamy, open-marriages, etc, both religious and secular. Hopefully by then marriage will be non-legal so we won't have to go through the same legislative crap.

The statists don't much mind what they sanction or prohibit through their laws, as long as they are the authority. Activist groups are willing to make a bargain with the statists as long as they promise to support their particular cause. Homosexuals of all people should recognize the dangers of state authority.
Misalignment
06-06-2004, 20:59
Nice post....
For some reason I find it extremely amusing that someone can post something well thought out that even *gasp* points out that middle ground is possible and the world cannot be quickly reduced to polarized viewpoints...

I'm sure this thread would have numerous replies and remain near the top of the general board if it started with a post along the lines of,
"Hey, (random group of people) are bad bad bad evil evil evil and should be (pick one) killed/deported/sent to suffer in some weird way... and I'm right and everyone who doesn't agree with me is a poo-head"
Trotterstan
07-06-2004, 00:44
I am not sure that using a dialectic approach is particularly enlightening with regards to the gay marraige issue. I would suggest Gramscian social theory as more appropriate. The 'battle' is about marriage as a social construct and is being waged between the homosexual community one one side and religious conservativeson the other. The legal status of marriage I think is just a means for the social conservatives to wage their defence. At stake however is not legal status of marriage but the moral standing of homosexuality and homosexuals. The gay community want to be seen as equal in all respects to the rest of the population and marriage is just a facet of that wider debate.

I dont really agree with your description of actors as 'statists' or that their interests are defined in relation to the State and its authority. I also dont see how this relates to the rest of your argument. State power is not an end unto itself but rather a means by which to achieve a goal.

Another perspective that you might find interesting in relation the subject of gay marriage is Alberto Mellucci's social movement theory. He offers a very thorough examination of mobilization and social movement theory.
Spoffin
07-06-2004, 00:50
Wow, that was a lot of stuff that I didn't understand. Except the part where you said that your response confused someone. I definately got that part.

Are you saying basicly that marriage (gay or otherwise) and law should have no connection?

In an authoritarian society everything that is not permitted is forbidden.I understand the legal/illegal/non-legal thing, but go over this one again. Permitted = allowed to do, forbidden = not allowed to do... wheres the middle ground? Allowed to do but frowned upon?
Trotterstan
07-06-2004, 02:01
Are you saying basicly that marriage (gay or otherwise) and law should have no connection?


He is just playing the republican (as in the ideology not the party) card and suggesting that the legal formality of marriage in fact constitutes state interference in religion (or religious interference in the State - I am not sure if that distinction makes any difference).

This view can only be supported if you consider marriage to be a purely religious construct but this is not the case. There was marriage before Christianity and the institution of marriage is deeply culturally embedded. Saying the state should have no part of it is akin to saying theat the state should also not support cultural activities such as music and sport. While such activities are not core state activity, in my opinion the state does have a role in maintaining the vitality of culture. (this might sound funny cause most of the time i post about how great anarchism is but if we do have a state then it might as well do something usefull.)
Sliders
07-06-2004, 03:55
In an authoritarian society everything that is not permitted is forbidden.I understand the legal/illegal/non-legal thing, but go over this one again. Permitted = allowed to do, forbidden = not allowed to do... wheres the middle ground? Allowed to do but frowned upon?
I would guess that means that unless the government specifically says that you can do something- then you should assume you can't
Ashmoria
07-06-2004, 04:19
id agree with your notion that the state has no business in marriage whatsoever except for 2 aspects that the state is VERY interested in.

children and money

the state needs stability of families for the raising of sane adults. the married couple are presumed to be the parents of any children born into the family unit that they create. this establishes rights and responsibilities of adults for their minor children for intact and broken families alike (one only need look at jerry springer to see the havoc caused by bearing children outside of family units) especially in the case of gay marriages where only one member of the couple could possibly be a biological parent, legal marriage establishes the rights of the non biological parent.

MONEY
the legality of marriage establishes financial rights and responsibilities of couples. this way you dont have one person making 100k/year while the other collects welfare because she makes nothing. its a family income not a personal income. it also establishes rights of support after break up inheritance, debts, leins, property rights, guardianship in case of severe illness. etc

these are the most important legal aspects of marriage and a big reason why gay couples rush to get married when the option is given to them.
Stirner
07-06-2004, 05:57
Thanks for everyone who posted. Interesting comments. I'll respond to a couple questions.

Are you saying basicly that marriage (gay or otherwise) and law should have no connection?
Correct.

In an authoritarian society everything that is not permitted is forbidden. I understand the legal/illegal/non-legal thing, but go over this one again. Permitted = allowed to do, forbidden = not allowed to do... wheres the middle ground? Allowed to do but frowned upon?[/quote]
Legal = Permitted
Illegal = Forbidden
Non-legal = ??? Our language doesn't seem to have a word for this that I can think of. Basically it is "permitted" but this is the wrong word because for non-legal issues there is no "permission" needed. It's simply beyond the scope of authority. Legislative and judicial opinion on a non-legal matter could best be represented by "..."

MONEY
the legality of marriage establishes financial rights and responsibilities of couples. this way you dont have one person making 100k/year while the other collects welfare because she makes nothing. its a family income not a personal income. it also establishes rights of support after break up inheritance, debts, leins, property rights, guardianship in case of severe illness. etc
This is where contracts come in. Parallel to a wedding involving a church, a community, or even just the two people, there would also be a contract covering financial/property issues or whatever the two people want to agree on. A contract of this kind is of course backed up by the state and there is no limitation based on race or sexuality in current law.
Standardized contracts would surely be produced that closely approximated the current marriage laws.

Saying the state should have no part of it is akin to saying theat the state should also not support cultural activities such as music and sport. While such activities are not core state activity, in my opinion the state does have a role in maintaining the vitality of culture.
All I can say is that I disagree with you on a role for the state in culture or society.
The 'battle' is about marriage as a social construct and is being waged between the homosexual community one one side and religious conservativeson the other. The legal status of marriage I think is just a means for the social conservatives to wage their defence. At stake however is not legal status of marriage but the moral standing of homosexuality and homosexuals. The gay community want to be seen as equal in all respects to the rest of the population and marriage is just a facet of that wider debate.
What I presented was the "third way". Though non-legality and libertarianism in general is what I believe, it is still not very popular in contemporary politics, as I'm sure you know.
Trotterstan
08-06-2004, 00:32
The 'battle' is about marriage as a social construct and is being waged between the homosexual community one one side and religious conservativeson the other. The legal status of marriage I think is just a means for the social conservatives to wage their defence. At stake however is not legal status of marriage but the moral standing of homosexuality and homosexuals. The gay community want to be seen as equal in all respects to the rest of the population and marriage is just a facet of that wider debate.
What I presented was the "third way". Though non-legality and libertarianism in general is what I believe, it is still not very popular in contemporary politics, as I'm sure you know.

Sadly contemporary political practice is a very poor representation of contemporary poltical theory. The modern democratic system is partly at fault as genuine informed discourse (see Jurgen Habermas for a description of this) is subject to critique from the uninformed and the party system is insufficiently pluralistic to represent a broad range of interests. As a result we have a public sphere dominated by interest groups like the religious lobby the gun lobby and corporate lobbies.

Sometimes I think Plato was right, the philosophers should be kings.
Ashmoria
08-06-2004, 02:40
MONEY
the legality of marriage establishes financial rights and responsibilities of couples. this way you dont have one person making 100k/year while the other collects welfare because she makes nothing. its a family income not a personal income. it also establishes rights of support after break up inheritance, debts, leins, property rights, guardianship in case of severe illness. etc
This is where contracts come in. Parallel to a wedding involving a church, a community, or even just the two people, there would also be a contract covering financial/property issues or whatever the two people want to agree on. A contract of this kind is of course backed up by the state and there is no limitation based on race or sexuality in current law.
Standardized contracts would surely be produced that closely approximated the current marriage laws.

2 thoughts on that
1) that would be defacto marriage. to call it something else doesnt change the reality

2) the current marriage "contract", which turns out to have all sorts of legal implications tht arent spelled out but which are enforced by the courts, seem to me to be fairer than each couple making up a new set. its too easy for a more savvy person to take advantage of a naive one....
for example
donald trump divorced his first wife ivana and faced financial ruin. when he married his second wife, marla maples, he drew up a pre nuputual agreement ( i think he had one with ivavna too but it had enforcement problems). this agreement was all in his favor. marla being young, naive and powerless signed it. there was a clause that said if the marriage dint last 5 years she got almost nothing, he divorced her just before the 5 years was up.

if a standard marriage contract had been in effect she would have fared much better. as it was she was taken advantage of by the more savvy donald trump.