NationStates Jolt Archive

to: identitycards@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk
subject: consultation response

With regards a compulsory identity card system, I would like to know what the government's response to the following questions are:

With regards terrorism:

Would an ID card system catch terrorists that are here legally and have no criminal record?
Would an ID card system have prevented the Sept. 11th WTC bombing that has kicked off this whole debate?
How will an ID card system prevent terrorist attacks, when the people involved in the recent Madrid bombing, allegedly, had valid ID?

With regards cost:

What is your estimate on how much the full ID system will cost? Is it higher or lower than the £6bn figure that has been floating around?
How will the money for this system be raised? What will be the individual cost per person, and will there be any subsidisation of the system through taxes?
Have you researched other, more efficient anti-terror, asylum and immigration control, and identity theft measures?
Could this money be spent on better things?

With regards security:

What anti-fraud measures have you in place to prevent the use of false national ID cards?
How often do you expect misidentifications to occur under the proposed system, how would they affect the workflow of checkpoints, and what would be the consequences to the misidentified?
Bearing in mind that half a million census forms went missing, and that security experts have declared that a system of a mere 20 million people would be a logistical nightmare, how can you assure the public that there would be no errors in a centralised database of 60 million?
Can you tell me how a single, centralised system with only one front that needs to be attacked to defeat it is more secure than the collection of multiple redundant systems that currently contain information on the citizenry of this country?

With regards freedom:

Can you give an absolute, 100% positive gaurantee that a compulsory national identification system will not damage or erode civil liberties or the freedom of innocent individuals in any way whatsoever?

I look forward to a response, thankyou for reading.

Le bump. Wonder if there's any other Brits awake now?

Le bump. Wonder if there's any other Brits awake now?

*yawns and rubs eyes*

to: identitycards@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk
subject: consultation response

With regards a compulsory identity card system, I would like to know what the government's response to the following questions are:

With regards terrorism:

Would an ID card system catch terrorists that are here legally and have no criminal record?
Would an ID card system have prevented the Sept. 11th WTC bombing that has kicked off this whole debate?
How will an ID card system prevent terrorist attacks, when the people involved in the recent Madrid bombing, allegedly, had valid ID?

He admitted the other month on Radio 4 that ID card would not help stop terrorism. But hey, it doesn't matter what it does as long as people think that it will do something.

Have you researched other, more efficient anti-terror, asylum and immigration control, and identity theft measures?

They have ID cards in Spain, France and Germany. Who all have quite high levels of illegal immigration. Also the Madrid bombings proved that it would not stop terrorism.

PS. If you get a reply, could you send me or post a copy?

PS. If you get a reply, could you send me or post a copy?

I'm sure I'll be able to do that.

Nice one!!

here -

http://forms.theregister.co.uk/search/?q=id+cards&x=6&y=10

just some articles about this madness from el reg...

I do hope you get a reply it will make interesting reading, I'll bet it's a form reply though, sent out to all off nationstates who asked. :lol:

Does the West think ID cards are limiting civil liberties? :shock:

Absolutely ridiculous. :roll:

Does the West think ID cards are limiting civil liberties? :shock:

Absolutely ridiculous. :roll:

And this coming from the most ardent supporter on these forums of that bastion of liberty and human rights, the PRC.

Please try and do some serious reading on the subject before pooh-poohing the idea of civil liberty erosion as "ridiculous."

Does the West think ID cards are limiting civil liberties? :shock:

Absolutely ridiculous. :roll:

And this coming from the most ardent supporter on these forums of that bastion of liberty and human rights, the PRC.

Please try and do some serious reading on the subject before pooh-poohing the idea of civil liberty erosion as "ridiculous."

wrong. this is coming from an ex-British colony, where the ID card system was introduced by the BRITS. surprise, surprise!

ID cards have helped solve many crimes in Hong Kong. Plus it's upgrading to become driving licence, passport, library card etc. etc.

I mean, it's just naturally accepted over here. Culture difference maybe. The Westerners think more about themselves far greater than they do of society.

Does the West think ID cards are limiting civil liberties? :shock:

Absolutely ridiculous. :roll:

And this coming from the most ardent supporter on these forums of that bastion of liberty and human rights, the PRC.

Please try and do some serious reading on the subject before pooh-poohing the idea of civil liberty erosion as "ridiculous."

wrong. this is coming from an ex-British colony, where the ID card system was introduced by the BRITS. surprise, surprise!

I'm quite aware of Hong Kong's status. And perhaps you should have complained a little louder?


ID cards have helped solve many crimes in Hong Kong. Plus it's upgrading to become driving licence, passport, library card etc. etc.


ID cards have helped, or police techniques have helped?


I mean, it's just naturally accepted over here. Culture difference maybe. The Westerners think more about themselves far greater than they do of society.

No, I just don't want to be tagged. I don't want to be treated as a criminal for not going along with a scheme that won't do what it says it will do, will cost billions, and will do nothing in my opinion but help to turn the country into an open prison. In fact, I'm putting "society" as you put it, way before myself. So far that I'm willing to go to prison for it. Are you?

couldn't have. the id card system was put into place before was i born. and i don't believe that there were arguments then. basically it was a security measure against the tidal waves of chinese and vietnamese immigrants. it worked like a marvel.

they have both helped. how do you quickly check if somebody on the street was a II or illegal worker, or that this dude was wanted by the police? or when you want to identify a crash/burn/crime victim? ID card.

i mean, the id card doesn't have to be regulating your actions. i mean, it certainly doesn't regulate mine. it just confirms my identity, shows that i'm a permanent resident of hong kong (soon to be citizen :lol: ), and make it much easier to solve criminal cases

The thing that really scares me is what happens if you think this through....

You have ID cards. On the ID car you have RFID. You create a database to keep track of location. You use satellites to track 'live'.

No. This is wrong on so many levels.

I bet that they don't reply to this.

couldn't have. the id card system was put into place before was i born. and i don't believe that there were arguments then. basically it was a security measure against the tidal waves of chinese and vietnamese immigrants. it worked like a marvel.


Please provide sources, and please provide sources showing that this was not due to police techniques instead of the ID card.


they have both helped. how do you quickly check if somebody on the street was a II or illegal worker, or that this dude was wanted by the police?


Fingerprints and police records.


or when you want to identify a crash/burn/crime victim? ID card.


Dental records. You think an ID card will stand up to a crash and burn any better than your teeth? And what if the criminal just steals the person's ID card before putting them in a blender and dumping the remains into the pacific ocean?


i mean, the id card doesn't have to be regulating your actions. i mean, it certainly doesn't regulate mine. it just confirms my identity, shows that i'm a permanent resident of hong kong (soon to be citizen :lol: ), and make it much easier to solve criminal cases

Surveillance regulates, restricts and changes your actions, whether you care to admit it or not. There are already multiple redundant forms of identity in this country that can be way more secure than any centralised database. If you are wanted by the law in this country, and you need to be identified, you will be identified, card or no card. A compulsory ID card does not make it easier to solve criminal cases except in cases where the criminal has been exceptionally stupid.

In case you didn't read my post to the Home Office, most terrorists are quite happy to carry valid ID. Who cares whether the government can keep information about you on file if you're just going to blow yourself up?

Enjoy your life of liberty.

well, read me again:

id cards (as i know it here in hong kong) do absolutely nothing at restricting civil liberties. i will provide sources if i had the time to look for them. of course i don't mean i'm making this up, but just background knowledge from the top of my head. i'm sure i'm more proficient in the history of hong kong than you are. take it, or leave it.

fingerprints and police records take a loooong time to prove somebody's identity. why not an id card with a number which can be checked immediately?

same goes for dental records. if the id card survives, it's a much quicker way to identify and victim and notify the family members.

the id cards here in hong kong don't do surveillance work. if you've done nothing wrong, you've really got nothing to fear.

of course, i'm saying this based on the stuff i know from hong kong. if your country survives very well with less efficiency and paranoia about civil liberties, fair enough on my part. *shrugs*

the id cards here in hong kong don't do surveillance work. if you've done nothing wrong, you've really got nothing to fear.


Ahh. Just popping in to this forum, wont be staying long but totally agree that ID cards are wrong and would like to ask Dragons Bay two questions before I go:

Has Hong Kong ever been a free state? Or has it in fact changed from a Colony under British Rule to a part of Communist China?

You have never known freedom so cannot comment on our British defence of freedom. We would fight for our freedom but you would appear to accept the slavery of your existence, first as a Colonial subject and then as a subject of the repressive Communist regime.

:twisted:

But DB, what information does it have on your card? The Home Office want all sorts of personal stuff to be on file.

I think a question that we all need to ask ourselves is, can we trust the politicians et al with our personal information?

the id cards here in hong kong don't do surveillance work. if you've done nothing wrong, you've really got nothing to fear.


Ahh. Just popping in to this forum, wont be staying long but totally agree that ID cards are wrong and would like to ask Dragons Bay two questions before I go:

Has Hong Kong ever been a free state? Or has it in fact changed from a Colony under British Rule to a part of Communist China?

You have never known freedom so cannot comment on our British defence of freedom. We would fight for our freedom but you would appear to accept the slavery of your existence, first as a Colonial subject and then as a subject of the repressive Communist regime.

:twisted:

Are we free? Are you kidding me? We were one of the freest areas in the entire British Empire. Look at what Zambia has gotten itself to. Even Singapore, when you get fined your chewing gum and being naked in your own home. Seriously.

We are THE freest beacon in China, including Taiwan.

Free, but safe, mind you. Safety comes first before freedom.

So, I know more freedoms than you do.

But DB, what information does it have on your card? The Home Office want all sorts of personal stuff to be on file.

my Chinese and English name, my birthdate, date of issue, an ID number, and a photograph of me when i was 11. :oops: on the back is the proof that i have the right of abode in hong kong.

the only thing i hate about the ID is the photograph...

i have already mentioned: the ID card "as I know it in Hong Kong".

Thank you for your e-mail responding to the consultation on the draft
Identity Cards Bill which is available on www.identitycards.gov.uk.

The Government announced on 11 November 2003 its proposal to build the base
for a compulsory national identity cards scheme. The Government is now
seeking, through this consultation, comments on a proposed Identity Cards
Bill that would establish the legislative framework for the incremental
introduction of this scheme.

We are grateful for the time you have taken to give us your comments, which
have been recorded and will be taken into account in the consultation.

The consultation exercise will run until 20th July 2004. If you wish to
provide us with any further comments, these would be very welcome.

Yours faithfully,

Identity Cards Programme Team

So, you really sent this?

I hope there's a response to that.

So, you really sent this?

I hope there's a response to that.

When I say I sent something, I mean it. And what I just posted, was the reply.

So, you really sent this?

I hope there's a response to that.

When I say I sent something, I mean it. And what I just posted, was the reply.

Well, it's the "standard" reply. No telling of whether they're going to listen to you. :roll:

So, you really sent this?

I hope there's a response to that.

When I say I sent something, I mean it. And what I just posted, was the reply.

Well, it's the "standard" reply. No telling of whether they're going to listen to you. :roll:

Most likely not I'd say; thats a rather obvious one though. I think you should get as many people as possible to send them e-mails asking questions, possibly just a copy of yours. Would be interesting, especially with enough people; could try to syncronise and see what happens!

So, you really sent this?

I hope there's a response to that.

When I say I sent something, I mean it. And what I just posted, was the reply.

Well, it's the "standard" reply. No telling of whether they're going to listen to you. :roll:

Most likely not I'd say; thats a rather obvious one though. I think you should get as many people as possible to send them e-mails asking questions, possibly just a copy of yours. Would be interesting, especially with enough people; could try to syncronise and see what happens!
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM! :twisted:

So, you really sent this?

I hope there's a response to that.

When I say I sent something, I mean it. And what I just posted, was the reply.

Well, it's the "standard" reply. No telling of whether they're going to listen to you. :roll:

Most likely not I'd say; thats a rather obvious one though. I think you should get as many people as possible to send them e-mails asking questions, possibly just a copy of yours. Would be interesting, especially with enough people; could try to syncronise and see what happens!
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM! :twisted:

Nice idea.

Thank you for your e-mail responding to the consultation on the draft
Identity Cards Bill which is available on www.identitycards.gov.uk.

The Government announced on 11 November 2003 its proposal to build the base
for a compulsory national identity cards scheme. The Government is now
seeking, through this consultation, comments on a proposed Identity Cards
Bill that would establish the legislative framework for the incremental
introduction of this scheme.

We are grateful for the time you have taken to give us your comments, which
have been recorded and will be taken into account in the consultation.

The consultation exercise will run until 20th July 2004. If you wish to
provide us with any further comments, these would be very welcome.

Yours faithfully,

Identity Cards Programme Team


Good to know that Uncle David cares about us so much that he replies to our questions

well, read me again:

id cards (as i know it here in hong kong) do absolutely nothing at restricting civil liberties. i will provide sources if i had the time to look for them. of course i don't mean i'm making this up, but just background knowledge from the top of my head. i'm sure i'm more proficient in the history of hong kong than you are. take it, or leave it.

fingerprints and police records take a loooong time to prove somebody's identity. why not an id card with a number which can be checked immediately?

same goes for dental records. if the id card survives, it's a much quicker way to identify and victim and notify the family members.

the id cards here in hong kong don't do surveillance work. if you've done nothing wrong, you've really got nothing to fear.

of course, i'm saying this based on the stuff i know from hong kong. if your country survives very well with less efficiency and paranoia about civil liberties, fair enough on my part. *shrugs*

Only a cursory review of this thread, but is this joker trying to imply that Hong Kong is a mecca of Civil Liberties??

Maybe he should take note of this:

"The PRC’s recent actions are especially disturbing. The April 26 decision by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress (search) to bar direct elections for Hong Kong’s chief executive in 2007 and the full legislature in 2008 was bad enough. But when protests erupted in Hong Kong over the decision, Beijing’s response was less than subtle. The communist regime dispatched eight warships to make a show of force in Victoria harbour. "
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121607,00.html

This is the same China that has shown complete disregared for human rights in their own country time and time again. Now, little by little, they are eroding the freedoms that Hong Kong once enjoyed. Registering all citizens is just one step...

The joker here you're talking about happens to be living in Hong Kong and listening and reading and watching the emerging politics debate every day, from both left and right-wing sources, and I've come to the conclusion that if universal suffrage will produce rubbish leaders like the Democrats, I'd rather not vote. Beijing is being ultimately lenient on Hong Kong, or else they would have marched south and took over Victoria.

The Chinese navy has the right to sail to any place where they please as long as the place is under their jurisdiction. The Navy coming here is not a show of force to Hong Kong, and our public has always been eager to welcome the Chinese military here. Fox talks as if Hong Kong has been invaded by Beijing. :roll:

Our citizens were registered on the I.D. card under the BRITISH COLONIAL ADMINISTRATION. Cursory views and rightist media are not enough if you're going to debate in this particular thread.