NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you believe that you are "saved" from eternal or temporary damnation? What allows this saving? Being a member of a religous organization? Being born at the right place in the right time? Living a good life?

This is one thing I don't understand. If God is just, and you can go to hell because you aren't baptized, so all the little heathen children in Africa are going to hell, how does that make him a just God? Also, why does he allow bad things to happen? Does he want us not to believe in him?

Meh.

Most things people hear on TV, media recourses and other people are lies. Some Christian religions even teach lies about God. All you have to do is repent and believe that Jesus is the son of the great God of Jahova. Why these bad things are happening is because it was said that in the last days, in the third day (What we are living in) horrible things will happen, it will get worse and worse untill it reaches its peak. Jesus will come back to the Earth and take all of those who are saved and too young to make a decision for themselves. The ones left behind will endure Seven years of hardships and poverty. At the very end, Evry knee will bow, and tounge confess he is god.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

You're going to piss people off bringing logic into a religious debate! (BTW: I agree totally)

no, i wont be saved, there is nothing to be saved from

where were YOU when god created the world? what do you know about what it takes to run a universe?? (this is what god responded to job when job asked him the same question, paraphrased)

I believe that everyone is saved from eternal damnation (even people I don't like). What they get instead, I don't know.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

I dont think we all take the bible word for word. I somehow doubt theres a little red guy in the centre of the earth that causes all the death and disease in the world

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?I'm no Pope, so I don't know every story in the Bible, but if He did make that deal as part of a grudge, it would stand to reason that He would naturally hold a grudge longer than a human would, seeing as He's timeless and all.

I can see what your getting at. But put it this way, say that you are the leader of the CIA. And one of your agents is from a foreign hostile country, he has violated lots of American laws including terroristic threats and big huge crimes. Say that he once worked for a foreign intelligence service. Would you put loyalty into him? Would you want him to be at your right hand side?
God wants to have loyal people at his side. But even in the end, Heaven and Hell will declare he is God. He has a plan for you.

When I clicked on the link to this thread, I thought this was another topic about Jack Chick. I mean, look at the title!

All Chickiness aside, I don't know too much about the Bible. I think that God, assuming he exists, would be pretty nice about letting people into heaven, giving everyone a chance to accept him. I don't know if this has happnened, as I haven't talked to everyone in the world, and some may not have even realized they were getting their chance.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

I dont think we all take the bible word for word. I somehow doubt theres a little red guy in the centre of the earth that causes all the death and disease in the world


But you really cant belive in Heaven with out believing in Hell

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

I dont think we all take the bible word for word. I somehow doubt theres a little red guy in the centre of the earth that causes all the death and disease in the world


But you really cant belive in Heaven with out believing in Hell

Well, yes you can. Jesus' death was the redemption of the human race. He died that we may live eternally

Only Human, by Tom Holt

READ THIS BOOK.

Damn, it's sweet. :D

--
Moonshine
CrystalDragon on Espernet IRC

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

I dont think we all take the bible word for word. I somehow doubt theres a little red guy in the centre of the earth that causes all the death and disease in the world


But you really cant belive in Heaven with out believing in Hell

Well, yes you can. Jesus' death was the redemption of the human race. He died that we may live eternally
He then went into Hell and fought Satan, three days later he rose again.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

I dont think we all take the bible word for word. I somehow doubt theres a little red guy in the centre of the earth that causes all the death and disease in the world


But you really cant belive in Heaven with out believing in Hell

That's like saying you can't believe in concrete without believing in lawn.

Of course you can believe in heaven only. God loves all, wants all to go to heaven upon death. God can do whatever he wants, therefore everyone goes to heaven upon death. (I'm sure there are other ways of putting it too)

Do you believe that you are "saved" from eternal or temporary damnation? What allows this saving? Being a member of a religous organization? Being born at the right place in the right time? Living a good life?

This is one thing I don't understand. If God is just, and you can go to hell because you aren't baptized, so all the little heathen children in Africa are going to hell, how does that make him a just God? Also, why does he allow bad things to happen? Does he want us not to believe in him?

Meh.

BINGO! That's so much of the problem with the God of organized religion. Why, if there is a being so powerful that he can create an entire universe, would such a being care if a bunch of people on one planet in one solar system kiss his rear-end constantly or not? And, if a being such as that had the power to prevent evil, but chose not too, wouldn't that make him inherently evil, or at least inhererently not entirely good. You know, "with great power comes great responsibility," and all that. And, finally, why would a God who is supposedly infinitely merciful and infinitely compassionate, create such a thing as hell? And, since such a being created people, wouldn't it be his own fault for not making them more good; i.e. he'd just be punishing bad people for his own faults as a creator?

Personally, if I were God, I would rather have one person who doesn't believe in me but helps others constantly over hundreds of people who believe in me but hypocritically treated others like garbage. And so on...

Oh, well, there's my theological rant.

so, you will be saved from a loving god's wrath????

riiiiggggghhhht

Don't you see that is flawed logic?

The question is moot considering it only applies to those adhering to any of the Big Three Religions...Christianity, Judaism, or Islam...when I die my soul will be met by Black Man and escorted into the Darkened Lands where I will dwell with Unequa, also known as Grandfather Creator, and be one with my ancestors. This is the beliefs of the Cherokee...we have no heaven...no hell..only the next leg of the journey of Life. Why would I need to be saved when it was never Unequa's decision that I not be with him and my ancestors upon the death of my physical body?

That's so much of the problem with the God of organized religion.

Much of organized religion seems to be a poorly disguised conformist movement.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?I'm no Pope, so I don't know every story in the Bible, but if He did make that deal as part of a grudge, it would stand to reason that He would naturally hold a grudge longer than a human would, seeing as He's timeless and all.

Well, from the story.. perhaps grudge is a bad word.. it was more like ego.. God's ego being so large that he more or less said "Fine! They will come to me no matter what" The Devil apparently saying "Well prove it and the ones who don't I get" It's almost like that old song by Chris DeBurgh - Spanish Trains. Where God and the Devil are playing cards for souls.. Still rather petty if you ask me.

You know, if and that's a big if, there is a God.. there is nothing saying he's a loving one... People just assume that. However, if you look to the bible (King James) God is not all that loving and kind in that book in many of the stories. We could just all be part of a big chess games.. and guess who the pawns are?

I'll go back to the beginning of the thread. How can one be saved?

Well, to do that, we need to look at why we need to be saved. At the beginning of the world, God appointed Adam as our representative, and gave him the choice of whether to eat the fruit or not. Adam ate the fruit, and was punished. Now the entire human race was sinful and born into sin.

God is a righteous God. He punishes sin. We are all sinful because of Adam.

But where does it say that God was a loving God? Read John 3:16 in the Bible. God sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross to save us from our sins. That's it. We can't save ourselves. We'd have to be absolutely perfect, and none of us can do that. If you've ever even had a wrong thought, you've sinned. We can't save ourselves. Jesus has to save us.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

let me guess, youre an atheist?

Yes, I am, but the story is biblical teachings.. I told it loosely.. but that is the gist of it.

I dont think we all take the bible word for word. I somehow doubt theres a little red guy in the centre of the earth that causes all the death and disease in the world


To be fair - that perception of Satan and Hell are really products of a far later time than the bible. Pictures such as Hieronymous Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights, and Dante's works that attempted to put a visual representation of something not really described in the scriptures.

Indeed, the bible is very non-specific when it comes to Hell. And interestingly enough - just as Easter seems to have been borrowed from pagan spring rituals of the time, so too does Lucifer seemt to be a borrowed entity as he appeared much earlier in Ovid's Metamorphosis, in which he is described as a minor deity: god of the morning Star.

Indeed, as more an more biblical stories get tied to other pagan ceremonies of the time, one starts to wonder if the Bible wasn't just cribbed from existing religions by thological plagerists!

An early version of product rebranding as it were....

-Z-

gave him the choice of whether to eat the fruit or not. Adam ate the fruit

According to biblical story, Adam didn't, Eve did.

God is a righteous God. He punishes sin. We are all sinful because of Adam.

Which proves my point that if there is a God, it's a petty one and some what of a control freak.

But where does it say that God was a loving God? Read John 3:16 in the Bible. God sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross to save us from our sins. That's it. We can't save ourselves. We'd have to be absolutely perfect, and none of us can do that. If you've ever even had a wrong thought, you've sinned. We can't save ourselves. Jesus has to save us.

This is not taken from the original bible.. this is taken after Jesus died and his movement grew and after hundreds of years in some cases these stories were written. Jesus never claimed to be the son of God.. Besides.. you can't trust a story told to you 5 years after the fact accurately let alone hundreds of years.

The stories in the bible contradict themselves a lot..

How does God save somebody, I ask you?

Does he take, say a Word Document of your life, then save it under a folder known as 'heaven'?

And what if he doesn't like you, will it be saved under the 'hell' folder or simply thrown in the recylcling bin and deleted?

God is a righteous God. He punishes sin. We are all sinful because of Adam

I *hate* the concept of Original Sin. IMO I dont think that Adam or Eve actually sinned. I think that Eden represented naivete (innocence), and that with the gaining of knowledge (from the apple) comes the loss of innocence (but that does NOT necessarily come by sinning).

How does God save somebody, I ask you?

Does he take, say a Word Document of your life, then save it under a folder known as 'heaven'?

And what if he doesn't like you, will it be saved under the 'hell' folder or simply thrown in the recylcling bin and deleted?

God would use a Unix-like system rather than windows, so he would not have a recycle bin. As it happens, he would redirect them to /dev/null

Will I be saved? No.

Why won't you be saved?

Because I believe religion is a big waste of time, so if I'm wrong, I'm ****ed.

Why won't you be saved?

Saved from what? If we need saving is it not fair to say that it is God that would put us in a position to need to be saved in the first place? If God wanted to, he could just open the gates and invite in all peoples.. so, if you need to be saved.. is it then not fair to say.. it's God saving you from God himself? As in to say.. you're being saved by God, from God.

Is it just me, or does the title of this thread look like something that would be on a big and/or brightly coloured sign outside a church?

Saved from what? If we need saving is it not fair to say that it is God that would put us in a position to need to be saved in the first place? If God wanted to, he could just open the gates and invite in all peoples.. so, if you need to be saved.. is it then not fair to say.. it's God saving you from God himself? As in to say.. you're being saved by God, from God.

Well, God is a judge. A fair judge. Have you ever done anything wrong? Anything at all? Well, then, by God's law, you must be condemned. But in His goodness and mercy, He sent his Son to take the punishment that should have been yours.

It would be like if I was a judge in a court. You were charged with murder. I want to save you, but I can't let you walk away scot-free, because that's not right. So, I decide to take the punishment for you, and go to jail instead of you. That's what Jesus did for us. He took our punishment so we don't have to.

Saved from what? If we need saving is it not fair to say that it is God that would put us in a position to need to be saved in the first place? If God wanted to, he could just open the gates and invite in all peoples.. so, if you need to be saved.. is it then not fair to say.. it's God saving you from God himself? As in to say.. you're being saved by God, from God.

Well, God is a judge. A fair judge. Have you ever done anything wrong? Anything at all? Well, then, by God's law, you must be condemned. But in His goodness and mercy, He sent his Son to take the punishment that should have been yours.

It would be like if I was a judge in a court. You were charged with murder. I want to save you, but I can't let you walk away scot-free, because that's not right. So, I decide to take the punishment for you, and go to jail instead of you. That's what Jesus did for us. He took our punishment so we don't have to.

However, murderers are jailed to protect the people from being killed. After death this is no longer an issue. God, being all-loving would send no-one to eternal damnation, as he would have no need nor desire to.

Saved from what? If we need saving is it not fair to say that it is God that would put us in a position to need to be saved in the first place? If God wanted to, he could just open the gates and invite in all peoples.. so, if you need to be saved.. is it then not fair to say.. it's God saving you from God himself? As in to say.. you're being saved by God, from God.

Well, God is a judge. A fair judge. Have you ever done anything wrong? Anything at all? Well, then, by God's law, you must be condemned. But in His goodness and mercy, He sent his Son to take the punishment that should have been yours.

It would be like if I was a judge in a court. You were charged with murder. I want to save you, but I can't let you walk away scot-free, because that's not right. So, I decide to take the punishment for you, and go to jail instead of you. That's what Jesus did for us. He took our punishment so we don't have to.

Yet, the majority of people around the world don't believe that version. Jewish people don't believe the Jesus story.. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God story.. Heck, even Jesus never said he was the son of God.. Jesus apparently said "I am dying for your sins" He could of meant any thing.. Like, I'm a patsy for example.. just like Lee Harvey Oswald said before Jack Ruby shot him.. Does that make Lee Harvey Oswald the son of God? Of course not. So, people who believe in Christianity are actually in the minority.. the majority of people in the world are not Christians.

You might note, however, that most of the world believes in God (Allah). And the fact remains that Jesus was a historical figure. The Muslims believe Jesus was an angel, and the Jews believed he was a prophet. So no matter how you look at it, he was a remarkable man, son of God or not.

You might note, however, that most of the world believes in God (Allah). And the fact remains that Jesus was a historical figure. The Muslims believe Jesus was an angel, and the Jews believed he was a prophet. So no matter how you look at it, he was a remarkable man, son of God or not.

Actually the Muslims also believe he was a prophet.. not an angel, they just believe that Mohammed was the last prophet. Where as the Jews believe Jesus was just a man... but they do recognize he was clearly a devote person to his beliefs.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

You've explained it better than I have.

I'll go back to the beginning of the thread. How can one be saved?

if you dont mind taking advice from an athiest.....

i think it would really help you to get one of those "words of jesus in red" bibles. when you just read the things attributed to jesus as coming out of his mouth you get a very interesting notion of the kind of person he expected you to be to be his disciple

meek, peacemaker, poor, humble, childlike, forgiving, turn the other cheek, sell everything you have and give it to the poor. etc etc etc.

it seems to ME that he just dint want you to say " i accept jesus christ as my personal lord and savior" and you get a free pass into heaven.
he has actual requirements....

whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me

to ignore the actual words of jesus is kind of dangerous dont you think?

You can be saved without baptism, as when Jesus was dying on the cross, he said to the thief on the cross next to him, "You will be with me in paradise". This man, the thief, was certainly not baptized.

Also, I would like to add, that I guess I might be saved, for today I was confirmed into the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Go me!

The only reason religion exist is because people need something and/or someone to blame for everything especially such heavy subjects as Death, Disease, Crime, Pain, Hurt, etc. and so forth. So the abstract ideas of Good and Evil were created. Good was anything that didn't hurt and that made life easy and pleasurable. Evil was anything that was the opposite of Good. That was nessercy to explain everything because Good is only definable by Evil and vis versa. So then God cannot destroy Satan because then the need for God no longer exists. So Satan must then continue to be in order for God to exist. But really that's just the beginning and thus it is simple. However when people began to twist it for there own benefit, other factors came into play thus changing the original ideology. Thus people needed to do certain things in order to be 'saved' as it were. So really according to the original ideology allll you had to do was be Good. Now you have to be baptisted and follow stupid rules. Which is part of the reason I'm an athesist.

Also, I would like to add, that I guess I might be saved, for today I was confirmed into the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Go me!

congratulations!

If I'm not saved, I really want to know what *I* did wrong in God's eyes, and why He didn't tell me not to do those things.
And telling me why not to would be nice too.

The only reason religion exist is because people need something and/or someone to blame for everything especially such heavy subjects as Death, Disease, Crime, Pain, Hurt, etc. and so forth. So the abstract ideas of Good and Evil were created.

GOD - GOOD
DEVIL - EVIL

I guess thats why they're so close...

The only reason religion exist is because people need something and/or someone to blame for everything especially such heavy subjects as Death, Disease, Crime, Pain, Hurt, etc. and so forth. So the abstract ideas of Good and Evil were created.

GOD - GOOD
DEVIL - EVIL

I guess thats why they're so close...

You know, there are more languages besides English.

People will tend to say that the "bad" things are the work of the devil. However, what I don't understand is if God made all the angels, he surely could destroy them as well if he so wished. Given nothing is suppose to be more powerful then God. So, the Devil (the supposed fallen angel) would really be at God's mercy.. But then there is the story that the Devil and God made some kind of deal.. that God not interfere with humans and see how many would come to him on their own...Apparently God agreed to that... So God's supposed most loved creatures (humans) have been suffering for over 6000 years because God is stubborn and has had this apparent family feud going on. Now, I've heard of a grudge before.. but that's one heck of a long time to hold one, don't ya think?

Like as not, we need to be given the full range of choices in order to be able to claim that we are truly free to act as we wish. This is another of the great gifts of God to humanity - the ability and right to do as we damn well please, even if that means we work (sometimes actively) against God's will.

That is the nature of God's pact with the Devil - that God allow humanity to choose its own path. It's like the saying if you love someone, you have to let them go and its follow-up and if they come back to you, keep them forever. It is a hard-made pact, but a pact made out of love, because God doesn't want (or need) automotons. God wants people who choose, of their own free will, to believe.

* * *

In regards to the original question, Jesus himself teaches that we "shall not know the hour" of his return. In the same vein, we shall not, and cannot, know in advance that we are saved or damned. That is not ours to determine, nor is it ours to judge.

Many Christian groups (and also fans of Jack Chick) claim that we can be utterly assured of our salvation if we fully accept Christ into our hearts and believe that he is the Risen Lord and the Saviour of the World. This is mostly true. Certainly, I believe that Christ has the power to save me...but I cannot, and will not, state with certainty that I am saved, because that is not mine to know. That judgement will be left up to Christ on the Last Day.

Long absent, not really back, might be back someday,
;) Aiera

The only reason religion exist is because people need something and/or someone to blame for everything especially such heavy subjects as Death, Disease, Crime, Pain, Hurt, etc. and so forth. So the abstract ideas of Good and Evil were created. Good was anything that didn't hurt and that made life easy and pleasurable. Evil was anything that was the opposite of Good. That was nessercy to explain everything because Good is only definable by Evil and vis versa. So then God cannot destroy Satan because then the need for God no longer exists. So Satan must then continue to be in order for God to exist. But really that's just the beginning and thus it is simple. However when people began to twist it for there own benefit, other factors came into play thus changing the original ideology. Thus people needed to do certain things in order to be 'saved' as it were. So really according to the original ideology allll you had to do was be Good. Now you have to be baptisted and follow stupid rules. Which is part of the reason I'm an athesist.

So, your atheism has less to do with actual theological principle and more to do with a dislike of rigid institutional structure?

Okay. I...guess that works.

See, it's not about the fact that God cannot destroy Satan. God certainly can, and God will triumph over Satan in the End Times. Such should be evident from a good reading of Revelation. ;)

But for now, God won't, and I've already touched on the reason. People like you and I need to be able to choose the full range of possible actions, including those that are not righteous, and those that go against the Will of God. Anything less acts against the very same intellect and awareness given to us by God, and so it is out of love (because, hey, love is often a painful thing) that God must, for now, allow Satan to exist.

In the same way that a loving father might give up his dream job for the sake of his family, so God must make sacrifices for the sake of God's people.

Cheers, until later,
:D Aiera

well, in buddhism, you can be "saved" from the cycle of death and rebirth through meditation until you reach enlightenment (a major simplification, i know) but yeah, in that instance, you don't need to believe in anything really to become enlightened.

i really find the concept of needing to believe in someone else to be saved silly.

If I'm not saved, I really want to know what *I* did wrong in God's eyes, and why He didn't tell me not to do those things.
And telling me why not to would be nice too.

that's another thing i have issues with in christianity...

A few problems I have with the whole issue.


*Why was it that a woman was the one that f#%$ed everything up for humanity? Oh wait thats right, men wrote the bible.

*Isnt being a good person and making a difference in the world enough. Why does christianity emphasize seemingly trivial things?

*As a Buddhist I dont have the same belief system as Christians, does that mean i am going to hell?

*I believe that Jesus was just a man (a great man) does that mean I am going to hell?

God, Christianity, and the bible are the biggest load of hooey ever.