NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a Catholic. I follow the Bible and the Teachings of Jesus. But I still have a hard time believing in Creationism. I do not think that the world was made in 7 days. I think that God worked through evoultion to create man animals etc.

My reasons for believing so? Read Genesis. There are two different creation stories in there. In one man is made before animals. In the other, animals are made after man. Plus, if you have two people (Adam and Eve) and they only have three kids (Cain, Abel, and Seth) where does the human race come from? Does Cain do his mom? If this henious and rather icky act was true, (it is denouced quite often in the Old Testament) science shows us that if two people so closely related mate...you get some messed up kids eventually.

Of course I could be wrong, this is only my theory. I am not a priest or a theological scholar, but I have a good idea how things work, regiously and secularly. Any and all opinions are welcome...

A "day" is an arbitrary term... in God's time, a day could be 1000 years. heck, a day could be a half billion years. it doesn't really matter, and it's not important.

And read genesis 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters

There are two different creation stories in there. In one man is made before animals. In the other, animals are made after man.

If man was created before animals, animals are created after man. These two stories you talk about are exactly the same :lol:

I don't know much about the bible, but everybody has a right to believe what they want, be it Islam, Katholicism, Hindoe etc. As a student-biologist, evolution is the thing for me - this is the only point of view that makes sence to me.

I am a Catholic. I follow the Bible and the Teachings of Jesus. But I still have a hard time believing in Creationism. I do not think that the world was made in 7 days. I think that God worked through evoultion to create man animals etc.

My reasons for believing so? Read Genesis. There are two different creation stories in there. In one man is made before animals. In the other, animals are made after man. Plus, if you have two people (Adam and Eve) and they only have three kids (Cain, Abel, and Seth) where does the human race come from? Does Cain do his mom? If this henious and rather icky act was true, (it is denouced quite often in the Old Testament) science shows us that if two people so closely related mate...you get some messed up kids eventually.

Of course I could be wrong, this is only my theory. I am not a priest or a theological scholar, but I have a good idea how things work, regiously and secularly. Any and all opinions are welcome...
THose are not two different stories but the same one. One focuses more on man. And the animals were created before man.
Genesis states that Eve gave birth to many more sons AND daughters. Basically, people just married their sisters.
And no, science has not shown that. The only study ever done on that proved that assertion to be false.
For thousands of years men have doing their sisters and their cousins. You are on of the descendents resulting from such couplings.

Evolution is my belief personally.

Evolution is my belief personally.Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

Maybe not accurate, but I still really, really wanna be descended from monkeys (fine, apes! but monkeys would be cooler).

What mechanism would God use to make humans? Evolution (hint fossils and extinctions) or magic (perhaps evolution is magic).

Evolution is my belief personally.Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

You don't believe in natural selection? I'm confused. Can you elaborate?

Evolution is my belief personally.Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

You don't believe in natural selection? I'm confused. Can you elaborate?Spiritual evolution. Man progresses from Intelligence to Spirit to Mortality to Death to Resurection to Exhaltation.

Are you folks arguring that God cannot use Evolution?

Evolution is my belief personally.Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

You don't believe in natural selection? I'm confused. Can you elaborate?Spiritual evolution. Man progresses from Intelligence to Spirit to Mortality to Death to Resurection to Exhaltation.

Yes, something for which the evidence is obviously more conclusive than Darwinism.
:roll:

Evolution is my belief personally.Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

You don't believe in natural selection? I'm confused. Can you elaborate?Spiritual evolution. Man progresses from Intelligence to Spirit to Mortality to Death to Resurection to Exhaltation.

Yes, something for which the evidence is obviously more conclusive than Darwinism.
:roll:Who said anything about evidence...?
Are you folks arguring that God cannot use Evolution?Umm, he SAID he did not... i think I'll believe him...

I'd like to know this:

Where in the bible does it say that every word is to be taken literally and that it CERTAINLY is not merely a basic guidline on how to live your life?

That being said..why is that so many christians believe that evolution..wich can be proven.....is wrong?

The vast majority of Creationists have never studied evolution past school, they teach you bugger all about it in school, it takes years to learn about the processes and tests that have been done, the theories that have been put forward. What the public know about evolution is only the tip of a very large iceberg of evidence. And I am sure most Creationists do not want to study it incase it offends their beliefs of whatever; I heard a qoute from a US Senator,

"I dont think evolution should be taught in our schools; I never studied it and I dont want it taught"

(maybe no 100% accurate but that was basically what it said)

The main reason Creationinsts don't like evolution is as it undermines thier authority; if it is true the Church, Mosque or whatever cannot tell people what they should and should not do, they lose thier power over the masses (that are gradually dissappearing anyway, at least in my country), and religion is and always has been about power of those at the top in order to control the rest.

The Original Evolution vs. Creationism thread!

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55470

Evolution is simply descent with change.

If a slight change in allele frequencies undermine your faith, your faith is worthless in every way.

Evolution is my belief personally.Evolution is my belief too. But darwin's theory of evolution? no way.

You don't believe in natural selection? I'm confused. Can you elaborate?Spiritual evolution. Man progresses from Intelligence to Spirit to Mortality to Death to Resurection to Exhaltation.

Yes, something for which the evidence is obviously more conclusive than Darwinism.
:roll:Who said anything about evidence...?
Are you folks arguring that God cannot use Evolution?Umm, he SAID he did not... i think I'll believe him...

Perhaps God has been misquoted, or taken out of context.

I don't think it contradicts my faith to blend the two. Perhaps evolution is how God created. Maybe we're still watching some of it going on. There's nothing to say that we or the world is a finished product. Hell, I'm not even a finished product. As was pointed out, seven days for us might not be the same as seven days for the Almighty, or even for a tree or for a bird, if you use life-span as a gauge, and then run it by the theory that time is relative.

I don't think that science and faith must be at odds, though.

There are two different creation stories in there. In one man is made before animals. In the other, animals are made after man.

Isn't that the same? In both stories man is made 1st and animals 2nd....

There are two different creation stories in there. In one man is made before animals. In the other, animals are made after man.

Isn't that the same? In both stories man is made 1st and animals 2nd....

they said it wrong. there are two completely seperate and mutually contradictory creation stories in genesis. the first is the 7 day creation. it goes from gen 1:1 to 2:3 - i have no idea why somebody in history thought there was a chapter break between 1:31 and 2:1. probably just illiterate. the second story is the adam and eve one - gen 2:4 to 3:24

BURN THIS THREAD.

Spiritual evolution. Man progresses from Intelligence to Spirit to Mortality to Death to Resurection to Exhaltation.

Yes, something for which the evidence is obviously more conclusive than Darwinism.
:roll:

'evidence'? what is this 'evidence' that you speak of? surely you don't mean that we should actually look at the facts of the world and try to organize them into a coherent explanatory structure? that would be silly.

The Original Evolution vs. Creationism thread!

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55470

hey, i remember that one. damn. that was nearly a year ago.

Spiritual evolution. Man progresses from Intelligence to Spirit to Mortality to Death to Resurection to Exhaltation.

Yes, something for which the evidence is obviously more conclusive than Darwinism.
:roll:

'evidence'? what is this 'evidence' that you speak of? surely you don't mean that we should actually look at the facts of the world and try to organize them into a coherent explanatory structure? that would be silly.

Correct. Clearly, the facts themselves are biased.

Well... here's how I look at it.

The story of Adam and Eve is another parable to tell man's relationship to God. It is not a device for accurately explaining the creation of the world. Also, you cannot look to the bible for everything. The bible was created by people in a harsh, desert, warlike, enemy occupied state. It's like if the people in Iraq wrote the bible. Now THAT would be scary :) .

Anyway, the bible has been translated and mistranslated many a time. You know that part where it says where it would be easier for a camel to pass through the head of a pin that a rich man go to heaven? In hebrew, the words for "camel" and "string" can be exchanged. So does that mean a rich man can work hard and go to heaven? I believe so.

My opinion. Was ist dein?

Im sorry, i meant that in one man is made before animals and in the other man is made after, my bad...

You know what this thread has taught me? If you wanna get a lot of responses, post something religously contreversial :lol:

My opinion. Was ist dein?


Hey KK... I just realized that I understand what you said! Thank God I stayed awake during German class! But aren't you being a little forward using "dein"?

sorry sorry I know this is off topic, I'll stop now...

My opinion. Was ist dein?


Hey KK... I just realized that I understand what you said! Thank God I stayed awake during German class! But aren't you being a little forward using "dein"?

sorry sorry I know this is off topic, I'll stop now...

we're all friends here :lol:

Correct. Clearly, the facts themselves are biased.

indeed. those sneaky scientists and their facts... what if the facts say things i don't want to believe? got you there, you evil empiricist bastards!

Plus, if you have two people (Adam and Eve) and they only have three kids (Cain, Abel, and Seth) where does the human race come from?
God tells us that He created Adam and Eve, and they had those three sons. But He doesn't tell us that Adam and Eve are the only two people He created from scratch. For all we know, he created hundreds of other people all over the globe.

Creationism has as much basis in reality as Lord of the Rings.

Plus, if you have two people (Adam and Eve) and they only have three kids (Cain, Abel, and Seth) where does the human race come from?
God tells us that He created Adam and Eve, and they had those three sons. But He doesn't tell us that Adam and Eve are the only two people He created from scratch. For all we know, he created hundreds of other people all over the globe.

Nice how the Bible leaves most of it to the imagination, isn't it?

Plus, if you have two people (Adam and Eve) and they only have three kids (Cain, Abel, and Seth) where does the human race come from?
God tells us that He created Adam and Eve, and they had those three sons. But He doesn't tell us that Adam and Eve are the only two people He created from scratch. For all we know, he created hundreds of other people all over the globe.

Nice how the Bible leaves most of it to the imagination, isn't it?
Is God somehow obligated to tell us everything?

oh the subject of the bible being the inerrant word of god, and thus no good christian can believe in evolution.....

i just finished reading a the book "gods secretaries" about the translating of the king james bible.

very eye opening stuff on how politics affects how many key words are translated

BUT

jesus, the apostles, and paul in the new testament quote the OLD testament inaccurately. (pg 82 in the paperback edition) as the book says "it was clear that the standard of scholarship among christ's disciples was despicable."

if jesus can misquote the bible can it REALLY be inerrant?

Is God somehow obligated to tell us everything?

if he's going to send us to hell for disbelief, i'd assume that he'd be a little more precise.

Is God somehow obligated to tell us everything?

if he's going to send us to hell for disbelief, i'd assume that he'd be a little more precise.
Well, I trust that He can decide what we need to know and what we don't.

And, he sends us to Hell because we don't have faith in Him.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Eph. 1:8

whether there's some kind of god or not, there is a lot of evidence for evolution (i.e. fossil records, man made evolution [look at dogs] et c)
so yeah, if there was a god, then this god took its sweet ass time making the world and slowly evolved everything to populate it.
or natural forces took their sweet ass time making the planet and all and life gradually did its own thing.

either way, you can't prove there was a god involved or there wasn't. all we can say is that when this solar system sure wasn't made in 7 days.

Is God somehow obligated to tell us everything?

if he's going to send us to hell for disbelief, i'd assume that he'd be a little more precise.
Well, I trust that He can decide what we need to know and what we don't.

And, he sends us to Hell because we don't have faith in Him.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Eph. 1:8

whatever. i've read the book and it doesn't feel right, if you want to believe, that's up to you. i don't and i really don't care anymore.

all we can say is that when this solar system sure wasn't made in 7 days.

or that the things needed to make it possible for the universe to have been made in 7 days are exactly the same as the things needed to make it possible that the universe was created this morning when i woke up.

Creationism has as much basis in reality as Lord of the Rings.
...and has won significantly fewer Oscars :wink:
I'm a man of evolution (punctuated equilibrium more than anything else right now, but evolution nonetheless). I'm also thrilled to be (up to 6th grade) a product of the Michigan public education system, which has yet to have creationists descend upon it like a plague of locusts. Don't know about public schools in AZ though (where I'm living right now...I'm fortunate enough to be able to do private school, since public really sucks around here).

*dons his FlameMaster3000, sits back, awaits the degeneration of this thread into flames* (it's only a matter of time with a creationism debate)

Is God somehow obligated to tell us everything?

if he's going to send us to hell for disbelief, i'd assume that he'd be a little more precise.
Well, I trust that He can decide what we need to know and what we don't.

And, he sends us to Hell because we don't have faith in Him.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Eph. 1:8

Oh yes of course. A supreme being that bestows us with the power of higher reasoning then condemns us for using it. Very likely.

why does it matter?

Who really cares if we evolved from monkeys or not? is it that important? Does it affect your life in any way whatsoever? No.

no people, let's not get into this debate. pitting a Creationist against a scientist is like racing a quadrapalegic against Michael Johnson...it's not only unfair, but it's embarassing for all parties involved.

Is God somehow obligated to tell us everything?

if he's going to send us to hell for disbelief, i'd assume that he'd be a little more precise.
Well, I trust that He can decide what we need to know and what we don't.

And, he sends us to Hell because we don't have faith in Him.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Eph. 1:8

Oh yes of course. A supreme being that bestows us with the power of higher reasoning then condemns us for using it. Very likely.Not everything we come up with is of God...

no people, let's not get into this debate. pitting a scientist against a Creationist is like racing a quadrapalegic against Michael Johnson...it's not only unfair, but it's embarassing for all parties involved.That could almost be an insult...

no people, let's not get into this debate. pitting a scientist against a Creationist is like racing a quadrapalegic against Michael Johnson...it's not only unfair, but it's embarassing for all parties involved.That could almost be an insult...

hehe, and i had it reversed, too...:P

are you saying calling somebody a quadrapalegic is an insult? of course, not, that wouldn't be nice, since handicapped people wouldn't like to hear such a thing.

no, it's not an insult, just pointing out that Creationists suffer from a serious disability, and using actual logic and fact on them will only humiliate them. i don't think it's right to pick on the disabled, so i don't condone perpetuating these debates. though i will admit, there is a certain guilty pleasure in entering a debate you know you can't lose...

why does it matter?

Who really cares if we evolved from monkeys or not? is it that important? Does it affect your life in any way whatsoever? No.

Knowlede is important. If this were 800 years ago, would knowing the earth was round have affected your life in any way whatsoever? Apart from getting you branded as a heretic? Yet nowadays, we wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced if people hadn't probed the very edges of human knowledge and known reality to see what else they could discover.

What we know about the past can help plan things for the future. It also provides some defense against the Watchtower-wielding recruitment troops who like to wake you up at 10am on a Sunday morning to see whether you'd like to invite Jehovah into your life.

no people, let's not get into this debate. pitting a scientist against a Creationist is like racing a quadrapalegic against Michael Johnson...it's not only unfair, but it's embarassing for all parties involved.That could almost be an insult...

hehe, and i had it reversed, too...:P

are you saying calling somebody a quadrapalegic is an insult? of course, not, that wouldn't be nice, since handicapped people wouldn't like to hear such a thing.

no, it's not an insult, just pointing out that Creationists suffer from a serious disability, and using actual logic and fact on them will only humiliate them. i don't think it's right to pick on the disabled, so i don't condone perpetuating these debates. though i will admit, there is a certain guilty pleasure in entering a debate you know you can't lose...LOL it's not so much an athlete vs. a parapalegic.. it's more like a bird versus an athlete... one isn't better than the other, necessarily, but they're just on different planes.

*Begins to cry a manly cry.*


WHEN WILL THESE THREADS STOP. WAAAH.

why does it matter?

Who really cares if we evolved from monkeys or not? is it that important? Does it affect your life in any way whatsoever? No.

Knowlede is important. If this were 800 years ago, would knowing the earth was round have affected your life in any way whatsoever? Apart from getting you branded as a heretic? Yet nowadays, we wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced if people hadn't probed the very edges of human knowledge and known reality to see what else they could discover.

What we know about the past can help plan things for the future. It also provides some defense against the Watchtower-wielding recruitment troops who like to wake you up at 10am on a Sunday morning to see whether you'd like to invite Jehovah into your life.We still have no theories as to how the universe began or anything like that... everything you evolutionists say points to a randomization theory... a lot of your theories are about as possible as smashing a watch apart, putting the parts in a bag, and shaking them until the watch became a watch again.

To say your theories are facts is just stupid.

Lets see, civilization, 38,000 BC.

Oldest known religion, 1,500 BC.

What about those 36,500 years when their was no know form of religion?

The human mind ia a very complex organization of atoms, we are capable of coming up with many perverse and evil things. Should it not be possible that we can come up with something great that is supposed to be good?

Isn't "thou shall not worship any god but myself" a commandment? If so then how do you explain Islam, or Buddhism, or Hinuism? Or all these other religions? Shouldn't god send a lightning bolt down on top of them?

I go to church, but I can't help asking all these questions, everyone just says "because the bible says". Well that is not good enough for me, I can not live my life based on a book that says Holy Bible: King James Version on the front. That makes in third hand knowledge, the interpretation of an interpretation of an event that might not have even happened, after all, certain books of the bible were removed and many "christian" holidays were changed to days of Roman holidays to make the transition from Pegan to Chritianity smoother in Rome.

why does it matter?

Who really cares if we evolved from monkeys or not? is it that important? Does it affect your life in any way whatsoever? No.

Knowlede is important. If this were 800 years ago, would knowing the earth was round have affected your life in any way whatsoever? Apart from getting you branded as a heretic? Yet nowadays, we wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced if people hadn't probed the very edges of human knowledge and known reality to see what else they could discover.

What we know about the past can help plan things for the future. It also provides some defense against the Watchtower-wielding recruitment troops who like to wake you up at 10am on a Sunday morning to see whether you'd like to invite Jehovah into your life.We still have no theories as to how the universe began or anything like that... everything you evolutionists say points to a randomization theory... a lot of your theories are about as possible as smashing a watch apart, putting the parts in a bag, and shaking them until the watch became a watch again.

To say your theories are facts is just stupid.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

Lets see, civilization, 38,000 BC.

Oldest known religion, 1,500 BC.

What about those 36,500 years when their was no know form of religion?

The human mind ia a very complex organization of atoms, we are capable of coming up with many perverse and evil things. Should it not be possible that we can come up with something great that is supposed to be good?

Isn't "thou shall not worship any god but myself" a commandment? If so then how do you explain Islam, or Buddhism, or Hinuism? Or all these other religions? Shouldn't god send a lightning bolt down on top of them?

I go to church, but I can't help asking all these questions, everyone just says "because the bible says". Well that is not good enough for me, I can not live my life based on a book that says Holy Bible: King James Version on the front. That makes in third hand knowledge, the interpretation of an interpretation of an event that might not have even happened, after all, certain books of the bible were removed and many "christian" holidays were changed to days of Roman holidays to make the transition from Pegan to Chritianity smoother in Rome.Wow... the first part is baseless, the second part is ignorant... you aren't doing so well....

We still have no theories as to how the universe began or anything like that... everything you evolutionists say points to a randomization theory...


wrong on so many levels. randomization is only one of the dozens of current theories on the origins of the universe, and every last one of those theories is more interesting than "and then God waved his hands and POOF!!"


a lot of your theories are about as possible as smashing a watch apart, putting the parts in a bag, and shaking them until the watch became a watch again.


an unfortunate misunderstanding of a central concept, one that many creationists fall into. in fact, the randomization theories are nothing like that.

the theory is that if you had an infinite number of bags with watch parts in them, and you shook all those bags, then, statistically speaking, it would be 100% likely that at least one bag would assemble a functional watch. this is a mathematical reality, and not one that anybody debates (including the mathematicians that are also Creationists). if you really really want i can try to post the mathematical proof of this, but all the symbols are a real bitch and might not post correctly...it would be easier if you just asked a math professor to go over it with you.


To say your theories are facts is just stupid.

theories aren't facts, no scientist would claim they are. however, a good theory is based on verifiable evidence and facts, unlike Creationism.

why does it matter?

Who really cares if we evolved from monkeys or not? is it that important? Does it affect your life in any way whatsoever? No.

Knowlede is important. If this were 800 years ago, would knowing the earth was round have affected your life in any way whatsoever? Apart from getting you branded as a heretic? Yet nowadays, we wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced if people hadn't probed the very edges of human knowledge and known reality to see what else they could discover.

What we know about the past can help plan things for the future. It also provides some defense against the Watchtower-wielding recruitment troops who like to wake you up at 10am on a Sunday morning to see whether you'd like to invite Jehovah into your life.We still have no theories as to how the universe began or anything like that... everything you evolutionists say points to a randomization theory... a lot of your theories are about as possible as smashing a watch apart, putting the parts in a bag, and shaking them until the watch became a watch again.

To say your theories are facts is just stupid.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

anyone with any credibility wouldn't use the watch example either. talk about stupid.

why does it matter?

Who really cares if we evolved from monkeys or not? is it that important? Does it affect your life in any way whatsoever? No.

Knowlede is important. If this were 800 years ago, would knowing the earth was round have affected your life in any way whatsoever? Apart from getting you branded as a heretic? Yet nowadays, we wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced if people hadn't probed the very edges of human knowledge and known reality to see what else they could discover.

What we know about the past can help plan things for the future. It also provides some defense against the Watchtower-wielding recruitment troops who like to wake you up at 10am on a Sunday morning to see whether you'd like to invite Jehovah into your life.We still have no theories as to how the universe began or anything like that... everything you evolutionists say points to a randomization theory... a lot of your theories are about as possible as smashing a watch apart, putting the parts in a bag, and shaking them until the watch became a watch again.

To say your theories are facts is just stupid.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.That's because scientists can't say that... it's against the very ideals of science.. to question everything.

Religion is not bound by the laws of science. No one with any sense will try to prove religion with science! You're talking about GOD here! If he wants to create the earth in a week, he can do it.

Although, as I said before, that "week" could very well have been a good 7000 years.

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

though i will admit, there is a certain guilty pleasure in entering a debate you know you can't lose...

its more fun than shooting a barrel full of monkeys.

really it's never much of a debate, but i tend to think of it as a chance to maybe help a creationist get started on the path to enlightenment.

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

i'm sorry, but do you know anything about planet formation?

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

i'm sorry, but do you know anything about planet formation?I know enough to know that we don't know much. We have our earth, and we have a telescope, and that's about it.

[quote="West Pacific"]Lets see, civilization, 38,000 BC.

Oldest known religion, 1,500 BC.

What about those 36,500 years when their was no know form of religion?

quote]


civilisation started around 9000 to 8000 BC, with the domestication of Vegetables and animals, making it possible to live in villages in stead of the nomadic lifestyle. the oldest cities were founded in these ages. (jericho is the oldest, 8000 BC)

those years without a religion.. people had myths then. they believed in Natural things, like thunder, fire, river etc.
as soon as the first humans arrived, there is something like a religious (more magic though) practice, and that's much older then those 38000 BC.

Lets see, civilization, 38,000 BC.

Oldest known religion, 1,500 BC.

What about those 36,500 years when their was no know form of religion?

quote]


civilisation started around 9000 to 8000 BC, with the domestication of Vegetables and animals, making it possible to live in villages in stead of the nomadic lifestyle. the oldest cities were founded in these ages. (jericho is the oldest, 8000 BC)

those years without a religion.. people had myths then. they believed in Natural things, like thunder, fire, river etc.
as soon as the first humans arrived, there is something like a religious (more magic though) practice, and that's much older then those 38000 BC.exactly what is this all based on? Carbon-Dating?

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

i'm sorry, but do you know anything about planet formation?I know enough to know that we don't know much. We have our earth, and we have a telescope, and that's about it.

we also have a model. a model that is being confirmed by the observations of extra solar planets...
we do know a lot, acutally.

Evolution is how things came about, I'm not going to believe there is a god that made us, only a supreme force that made the universe.

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

i'm sorry, but do you know anything about planet formation?I know enough to know that we don't know much. We have our earth, and we have a telescope, and that's about it.

we also have a model. a model that is being confirmed by the observations of extra solar planets...
we do know a lot, acutally.Do you realize how many times we had a "good model" of the atom before we finally got something even remotely correct? We've been seriously talking about how the earth began for.. what... 500 years at the most? It took us a good 2-3000 years to get the atom where it is.

Evolution is how things came about, I'm not going to believe there is a god that made us, only a supreme force that made the universe.What's the difference between an eternal god and an anonymous eternal supreme force?

Do you realize how many times we had a "good model" of the atom before we finally got something even remotely correct? We've been seriously talking about how the earth began for.. what... 500 years at the most? It took us a good 2-3000 years to get the atom where it is.

if you count the greeks thinkign about an atom... which i wouldn't count as scientific thinking about an atom, that's more "what if there's only a limited number of times something can be divided?" in which case, people have been thinking about the earth for that long.
and this isn't a first draft model... this has been revised. it is being observed occuring around other stars. this isn't just theory, there is observation to it. well, it's still theory and a model, but it's pretty good.

civilisation started around 9000 to 8000 BC, with the domestication of Vegetables and animals, making it possible to live in villages in stead of the nomadic lifestyle. the oldest cities were founded in these ages. (jericho is the oldest, 8000 BC)

those years without a religion.. people had myths then. they believed in Natural things, like thunder, fire, river etc.
as soon as the first humans arrived, there is something like a religious (more magic though) practice, and that's much older then those 38000 BC.exactly what is this all based on? Carbon-Dating?

carbon dating, dendrochronology, counting annual flood layers, etc.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/time/time_4.htm
http://anthro.palomar.edu/time/time_5.htm

didn't we do this dance before?

Do you realize how many times we had a "good model" of the atom before we finally got something even remotely correct? We've been seriously talking about how the earth began for.. what... 500 years at the most? It took us a good 2-3000 years to get the atom where it is.

if you count the greeks thinkign about an atom... which i wouldn't count as scientific thinking about an atom, that's more "what if there's only a limited number of times something can be divided?" in which case, people have been thinking about the earth for that long.
and this isn't a first draft model... this has been revised. it is being observed occuring around other stars. this isn't just theory, there is observation to it. well, it's still theory and a model, but it's pretty good.

civilisation started around 9000 to 8000 BC, with the domestication of Vegetables and animals, making it possible to live in villages in stead of the nomadic lifestyle. the oldest cities were founded in these ages. (jericho is the oldest, 8000 BC)

those years without a religion.. people had myths then. they believed in Natural things, like thunder, fire, river etc.
as soon as the first humans arrived, there is something like a religious (more magic though) practice, and that's much older then those 38000 BC.exactly what is this all based on? Carbon-Dating?

carbon dating, dendrochronology, counting annual flood layers, etc.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/time/time_4.htm
http://anthro.palomar.edu/time/time_5.htm

didn't we do this dance before?not really, I actually haven't studied anthropology all that much, so I was genuinely curious

I believe in creation to the extent that god created pretty much all things but not in a literal 7 days the time setup could translate to a rather long period certainly not a literal 7 days. I believe to an extent evolution is the case that things evolve and change I suppose then I am partially or mostly with the founder of this thread

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

That's because scientists can't say that... it's against the very ideals of science.. to question everything.

Religion is not bound by the laws of science.

And this is why religion, particularly large organised religions, will always be playing catch-up to science. Creationism is based on trying to make the facts fit the theory. Science is based on making the theory fit the facts.

didn't we do this dance before?not really, I actually haven't studied anthropology all that much, so I was genuinely curious

must have been somebody else on here then. could have sworn it was in one of the mormonism topics.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

That's because scientists can't say that... it's against the very ideals of science.. to question everything.

Religion is not bound by the laws of science.

And this is why religion, particularly large organised religions, will always be playing catch-up to science. Creationism is based on trying to make the facts fit the theory. Science is based on making the theory fit the facts.Creationism isn't a theory for crap's sake, creationism is merely a belief based on faith, which that faith is based on other things/experiences. Creationism is nothing more than an aspect of religion... why it is up for such scrutiny is beyond me.

That's like me asking you about the publishing company of your science textbook... who cares? It's not important.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

That's because scientists can't say that... it's against the very ideals of science.. to question everything.

Religion is not bound by the laws of science.

And this is why religion, particularly large organised religions, will always be playing catch-up to science. Creationism is based on trying to make the facts fit the theory. Science is based on making the theory fit the facts.Creationism isn't a theory for crap's sake, creationism is merely a belief based on faith, which that faith is based on other things/experiences. Creationism is nothing more than an aspect of religion... why it is up for such scrutiny is beyond me.

That's like me asking you about the publishing company of your science textbook... who cares? It's not important.

The reason it is up for such scrutiny is because people try and pass it off as fact. And asking me for the company that makes my science textbooks is extremely relevant if you want to check up on the credentials of the people that made them. Not that I base my entire perception of reality on a book.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

That's because scientists can't say that... it's against the very ideals of science.. to question everything.

Religion is not bound by the laws of science.

And this is why religion, particularly large organised religions, will always be playing catch-up to science. Creationism is based on trying to make the facts fit the theory. Science is based on making the theory fit the facts.Creationism isn't a theory for crap's sake, creationism is merely a belief based on faith, which that faith is based on other things/experiences. Creationism is nothing more than an aspect of religion... why it is up for such scrutiny is beyond me.

That's like me asking you about the publishing company of your science textbook... who cares? It's not important.

The reason it is up for such scrutiny is because people try and pass it off as fact. And asking me for the company that makes my science textbooks is extremely relevant if you want to check up on the credentials of the people that made them. Not that I base my entire perception of reality on a book."pass it off as fact"... you do realize that "fact" is not a word religion is allowed to use... we are all based on faith... the problems come in stupid arguments like this where we compare something of faith to something of observation.

"pass it off as fact"... you do realize that "fact" is not a word religion is allowed to use... we are all based on faith... the problems come in stupid arguments like this where we compare something of faith to something of observation.

wait, so they force conversions without any basis in reality?

that's a little fucked up.

But nobody with any credibility claims that theories are facts. Unlike various creationists. They just happen to have a whole lot more than just a book as evidence that validates their theories.

That's because scientists can't say that... it's against the very ideals of science.. to question everything.

Religion is not bound by the laws of science.

And this is why religion, particularly large organised religions, will always be playing catch-up to science. Creationism is based on trying to make the facts fit the theory. Science is based on making the theory fit the facts.Creationism isn't a theory for crap's sake, creationism is merely a belief based on faith, which that faith is based on other things/experiences. Creationism is nothing more than an aspect of religion... why it is up for such scrutiny is beyond me.

That's like me asking you about the publishing company of your science textbook... who cares? It's not important.

The reason it is up for such scrutiny is because people try and pass it off as fact. And asking me for the company that makes my science textbooks is extremely relevant if you want to check up on the credentials of the people that made them. Not that I base my entire perception of reality on a book."pass it off as fact"... you do realize that "fact" is not a word religion is allowed to use... we are all based on faith... the problems come in stupid arguments like this where we compare something of faith to something of observation.

Yes, and faith is not a good thing to base your perception of reality on. You can't just mix oxidiser and fuel together in a container and have faith that it'll work as a rocket and not a 300 foot tall pipe bomb.

You can't just have faith and decide that God made the universe in seven days and that's it. For one, it promotes intellectual stagnation, which is only okay if you're part of the elite clergy and don't want people questioning your motives too much. For another, recent revelations in science have proven the old seven day theory of creation as absolute balderdash - so the creationists keep on coming up with stuff like "oh well, maybe a day means a thousand years".

Anything to try and keep the sacred lie alive.

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

i'm sorry, but do you know anything about planet formation?I know enough to know that we don't know much. We have our earth, and we have a telescope, and that's about it.

Erm... we know pretty much everything about planet formation. Bejesus.

We found fossils? OK, who cares? Really? How do we know they aren't the remnants of the planet Earth was reorganized from? Did you know that? The Earth wasn't created out of nothing, if you read the original text, the word isn't created, the word is organized... this Earth could very well have been created from another Earth, like a phoenix reborn from its ashes.

i'm sorry, but do you know anything about planet formation?I know enough to know that we don't know much. We have our earth, and we have a telescope, and that's about it.

we also have a model. a model that is being confirmed by the observations of extra solar planets...
we do know a lot, acutally.Do you realize how many times we had a "good model" of the atom before we finally got something even remotely correct? We've been seriously talking about how the earth began for.. what... 500 years at the most? It took us a good 2-3000 years to get the atom where it is.

Did the ancient greeks have electron absorbtion spectroscopy when they came up with their model of the atom? :roll:

There are three routes you can take on this subject:
1.)Evolution
2.)Creation
3.)Some combination of the two.
The route you decide to take will depend on the extent you're willing to let logic fail. What I mean is eventually on whatever tack you take the line will end in a deadend. Like on evolution all things go back to the Big Bang. What then? Where did the cloud of gases come from to form the Bang? Then again where did the God of creation come from? From what source was the Word created? And what is the source of that source? So you see it's where you want your train of logic to end that dictates what tack you take. I personally go with evolution 'cause religon isn't my bag.

this is yet another one of those waste of space circle jerk threads:(

In the toss up between the scientific theory which currently possesses the most supporting evidence, or a non-scientific theory backed-up by no scientific evidence, I have to choose the scienfic one. In this instance, evolution.

If you hadn't guessed, I consider myself a scientist :wink:

Why couldn't The Supreme Being create the universe through evolution?In the Bible it says "Let there be light" whcih could be interpreted as the Big Bang. I don't take the word "day" to mean a literal 24-hour day, but millions or even billions of years, so I think parts of the Genesis account could allow for evolution.
As for Adam and Eve, I believe that once God set the processes of evolution into force, he let nature take it's course (with a little prodding here and there), so I take everything after the actual creation process with a grain of salt. ;)

As for The Supreme Being's origin's, I prefer the Prime Mover example. God is the force that moves everything but is himself unmoved.

Just my two pence. 8)

Does anyone else seem to get that Raysia is saying, "We're all ignorant, so I must be right."

Just how it seem to me. I go with evolution. Doesn't seem like God is doing anything now adays.

Does anyone else seem to get that Raysia is saying, "We're all ignorant, so I must be right."

Just how it seem to me. I go with evolution. Doesn't seem like God is doing anything now adays.all i'm saying is you can think what you want, but I have my reasons to believe what I do.

Does anyone else seem to get that Raysia is saying, "We're all ignorant, so I must be right."

Just how it seem to me. I go with evolution. Doesn't seem like God is doing anything now adays.all i'm saying is you can think what you want, but I have my reasons to believe what I do.

such as what? Our current lack of knowledge should be conducive to a lack of beliefs and open-mindness.

Does anyone else seem to get that Raysia is saying, "We're all ignorant, so I must be right."

Just how it seem to me. I go with evolution. Doesn't seem like God is doing anything now adays.all i'm saying is you can think what you want, but I have my reasons to believe what I do.

such as what? Our current lack of knowledge should be conducive to a lack of beliefs and open-mindness.Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of all things...

honestly, why does it matter exactly the process the Earth was created? how does it make a better person?

honestly, why does it matter exactly the process the Earth was created? how does it make a better person?

Ah, this is something I can agree on. The verity of religious myths/historical facts does not affect the instructions on how one should treat others.

"pass it off as fact"... you do realize that "fact" is not a word religion is allowed to use... we are all based on faith... the problems come in stupid arguments like this where we compare something of faith to something of observation.

perhaps you missed it but there is an active movement pushing creationism as science into the classrooms and textbooks. they also are working on pushing evolution out of classrooms.

but in any case, creationism makes objective, testable claims about the world. these claims are almost universally false. faith let's you get away with unprovables, but not with falsehoods.

"pass it off as fact"... you do realize that "fact" is not a word religion is allowed to use... we are all based on faith... the problems come in stupid arguments like this where we compare something of faith to something of observation.

perhaps you missed it but there is an active movement pushing creationism as science into the classrooms and textbooks. they also are working on pushing evolution out of classrooms.

but in any case, creationism makes objective, testable claims about the world. these claims are almost universally false. faith let's you get away with unprovables, but not with falsehoods.

Science does not have fact either, it has theory. However, pushing evolutionism out of classrooms is very unscientific. Science requires a consideration of all evidence.

Science does not have fact either, it has theory.

without facts there can be no theories. the entire project of science is based on facts.

Science does not have fact either, it has theory.

without facts there can be no theories. the entire project of science is based on facts.

It is common knowledge that nothing can be proved a fact, because there can always be more evidence that you are not aware of.

this is yet another one of those waste of space circle jerk threads:(
You'd think that the top five of the dozens of websites concerning this argument could just be posted and be done with it.

Having said that, I'm going to be slightly offensive. Why do I have to suffer the flat-earthers? Why are these battles being fought or entertained? Go build your wooden rockets to zzzzzzzzzzz or whatever and let the world move on.

It is common knowledge that nothing can be proved a fact, because there can always be more evidence that you are not aware of.

we are obviously using the terms differently. in my usage 'facts' are the observed pieces of information about the world and 'theories' are the structures created, specifically by science, to explain the known facts.

Having said that, I'm going to be slightly offensive. Why do I have to suffer the flat-earthers? Why are these battles being fought or entertained? Go build your wooden rockets to zzzzzzzzzzz or whatever and let the world move on.

because they are politically powerful and want to fuck up my society with their retardation. if they just went around believing stupid bullshit, that would be one thing. but they keep passing all these laws and that's just not cool.

It is common knowledge that nothing can be proved a fact, because there can always be more evidence that you are not aware of.

we are obviously using the terms differently. in my usage 'facts' are the observed pieces of information about the world and 'theories' are the structures created, specifically by science, to explain the known facts.

Oh, yes, if you define facts to mean observations, then yes. I thought you meant provable concepts, which only mathematical concepts can be (given acceptance of appropriate axioms)

Having said that, I'm going to be slightly offensive. Why do I have to suffer the flat-earthers? Why are these battles being fought or entertained? Go build your wooden rockets to zzzzzzzzzzz or whatever and let the world move on.

because they are politically powerful and want to f--- up my society with their retardation. if they just went around believing stupid bullshit, that would be one thing. but they keep passing all these laws and that's just not cool.
That's kinda what I'm saying. Why are they given such thrift? I mean, I know why, it's just frustrating...

Oh, yes, if you define facts to mean observations, then yes. I thought you meant provable concepts, which only mathematical concepts can be (given acceptance of appropriate axioms)

nah, i reserve the word 'proof' for that. there is very little that isn't trivial that has been proven true, except in the case of mathematics and pure logic. and even then, you can always say that the assumptions in the premises don't hold.

In case it STILL hasnt been posted, "not all statements are true" should read "not all true statements are proofs."

In case it STILL hasnt been posted, "not all statements are true" should read "not all true statements are proofs."

In case it STILL hasnt been posted, "not all statements are true" should read "not all true statements are proofs."

Argh! My original message wasnt posted!

I was saying that proofs are things that prove a statement to be true, rather than just something that is true.

I am not aware of the location in the bible, but being a heavy Undemominated Christan, I have remembered one thing when my science teacher asked "Is evolution real?"

It said something like this,
"And God said, 'Let man, and all other life have the ability to adapt to the changings of the world which I have created," once agian, it was something like that, i can not remember full scripture.

When I had the exact scripture writin down and I had given it to him, he said, "Well then, I guess it could very well be real."

So there is my input.

Also, many people also dispute that exact scripture, saying that it could not mean evolution, but adaption, which in my mind, is very much the same to me.

What is this creationism crap? The Genesis account was made up by ancient people who didn't understand modern science the way we do. They came up with a story that would account for the world as they saw it: with them on top. It is counted as inspired scripture, but it shouldn't be taken as literal truth.

-Mad Emperor Bob

Personally, I would like simply to declare myself as a hardline supporter of Punctuated Equilibrium evolutionary theory! Have been since I was 15 when I read my first book by the late Dr. Stephen Jay Gould.