NationStates Jolt Archive

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Several people have gotten confused by the original topic title "Pope says America is Soulless". This is in error. Please read the article carefully; he says that we Americans are turning to a soulless vision of life, not that we are soulless. There's a difference.

The topic title has been changed to reduce flames/flamebait/trolling and to better reflect the topic content. [/modedit]

From MSN

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a “soulless vision of life.”

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To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church “is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world,” John Paul said.

“Taking up this challenge, however, will require a realistic and comprehensive reading of the 'signs of the times,' in order to develop a persuasive presentation of the Catholic faith and prepare young people especially to dialogue with their contemporaries about the Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world.”

John Paul added: “An effective proclamation of the Gospel in contemporary Western society will need to confront directly the widespread spirit of agnosticism and relativism which has cast doubt on reason’s ability to know the truth, which alone satisfies the human heart’s restless quest for meaning.”

All bishops must visit the Vatican every five years. This year is the Americans’ turn, and several regional delegations already have met with the pope.

© 2004 The Associated Press.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. We're materialistic. We're getting this from a guy who has his own state.

Rhetorical question: Why is the... popemobile.... whatever the hell it's called.... bulletproof? If the pope is afraid to die, we should be very, very afraid.

Let's hear it for agnosticism! w00t!

And your point is.....the Pope says we should all become Catholics and quit loving our material possesions?


Umm....NO!

Dear Pope,

Piss off. I would be more likey to take life style advice from Micheal Jackson.
You sit in your own country with millions of people at your call and yet you do nothing.
If you would like me to take you seriously, I am afraid that there are a few things you will have to do.

1. Sell off the treasures of the vatican and feed the poor.

2. Excomunicate any member of your church who joins the military of any nation.

3. Stop trying to stop people from using condoms.

Thank you.

The Pope doesn't like me... BOOHOO!

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Even though your a mod and everything, I seriously doubt you have the right to undermind a religon.

I think there was a million other ways you could've said that.

Hum. I'm a bit odd, but I have respect for the Pope and what he says. And on this, he's absolutely right.

It's laughable how "spiritual" certain people in America think they are, and if ever there was a country that could represent soulless materialism and degradation of traditional values, it's the good ole USA. It's also laughable, some of the reactions on this thread, and actually kinda goes to show the Pope's words to be true.

Of course, many of the "spiritual" people in America have an "interesting" view of what is or isn't true...

The Pope says this every year. Can't say as I blame him, as American spirituality has declined in the past few decades. But despite what he thinks, we are not all souless people. I'm Catholic, and I feel it is my obligation to help in Mass. Therefore, once a month, I read Scripture at Mass. I also pray to God, and thank him for every meal, and pray to him at night. I may seem souless on here, but that's because my underlying philosophy is that God will provide for what we need. The Pope is just wrong to label us as completely souless.

How dare any of you insult him. He's a far better person than most of us on here. For crying out loud, he's the only Pope that has made many visits to Africa, and established aid groups all throughout. If politics didn't get in the way, he'd have gotten this years Nobel peace prize.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(

How dare any of you insult him. He's a far better person than most of us on here. For crying out loud, he's the only Pope that has made many visits to Africa, and established aid groups all throughout. If politics didn't get in the way, he'd have gotten this years Nobel peace prize.

He has good intentions, but he's helped enable some child abuse, spread misinformation about condoms, and insists homosexuality and birth control is wrong. I respect him, but I don't believe in papal infallibility or that he has a direct connection with God anymore than the rest of us do. I'm an ex-altar server (no, never touched by a priest :lol: ) and still a catholic active in my church's youth program, but still, I don't believe all the doctrine and dogma I hear.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(
She does. I've known her long enough to know that she thinks religion is the root of all evil.

What about the Catholic Church and the Nazi Party in WWII

Hum. I'm a bit odd, but I have respect for the Pope and what he says. And on this, he's absolutely right.

It's laughable how "spiritual" certain people in America think they are, and if ever there was a country that could represent soulless materialism and degradation of traditional values, it's the good ole USA. It's also laughable, some of the reactions on this thread, and actually kinda goes to show the Pope's words to be true.

Of course, many of the "spiritual" people in America have an "interesting" view of what is or isn't true...

Nah, you're not a bit odd at all (at least in this respect). I agree wholeheartedly that the problems in the US can be traced to an overdependence on "stuff". A consumer society who is taught that what you own is far more important that who you are and what you do.

The pope used to ride around all the time in an open car, in fact his first trip to the US was in an open car. Then he was shot in his own nation of Poland by a mentally deranged man (at the time, many believed that the man was hired by the KGB or other USSR intelligence agency). He nearly died from the loss of blood in the ride to the hospital. He later publicly and privately forgave the man who shot him, and was even seen on TV with the man.

I may not be Catholic, but I've got nothing but repsect for this "mere old man." He was a visionary who perhaps wasn't right for all people all of the time, but I think he speaks from the heart. I refuse to condemn him for his sometimes conservitive views; though I wait with baited breath to see if his successor will be any more liberal.

I think you've misunderstood what His Holiness was saying. He meant the Church was out-of-touch with modern society and needs to adapt to meet the new millenium. Namely with the Jesuit Order's call for inane and archaic guidelens like celibacy be aboslished.

And you have to admit, America is not exactly a haven of moral decency.

The Pope could always come over here and actually do something besides wearing a funny hat.

the pope should lose the state and 24karat throne and live like the rest of us. So much for being a humble old man, what with his huge acoutrements surrounding him.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

When this pope first came to office, everyone knew he was a bit of a hard liner (contraception etc) but he breathed new diplomatic life into the Vatican and took on Brezhnev personally. He played his part in bringing down the Soviet regime, not least with his overt support for 'Solidarity' in Poland. During WW2, he was active in resisting the Nazis in Poland and for those two great works he deserves our respect. He is now a very old and very sick man and we should excuse his less then diplomatic errors. By the way, he did not accuse Americans of being soulless, he said American society was becoming soulless. In my view that's a valid point coming from the most important religeous leader in the world.
I am not a Christian.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Pretty crass and tactless. But then, you're nothing but a Canadian. ;)

That was actually pretty disrespectful....

From MSN

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a “soulless vision of life.”

advertisement

To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church “is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world,” John Paul said.

“Taking up this challenge, however, will require a realistic and comprehensive reading of the 'signs of the times,' in order to develop a persuasive presentation of the Catholic faith and prepare young people especially to dialogue with their contemporaries about the Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world.”

John Paul added: “An effective proclamation of the Gospel in contemporary Western society will need to confront directly the widespread spirit of agnosticism and relativism which has cast doubt on reason’s ability to know the truth, which alone satisfies the human heart’s restless quest for meaning.”

All bishops must visit the Vatican every five years. This year is the Americans’ turn, and several regional delegations already have met with the pope.

© 2004 The Associated Press.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. We're materialistic. We're getting this from a guy who has his own state.

Rhetorical question: Why is the... popemobile.... whatever the hell it's called.... bulletproof? If the pope is afraid to die, we should be very, very afraid.

Let's hear it for agnosticism! w00t!
The warning comes way too late.
America already is soulless.

My Italian brother the pope has spoken.

Go John Paul, your right.

1. I am not Catholic and do not recognize the pope as being a direct line to God. (My particular branch of the chruch arose from protesting and rebeling against the the Catholic church at the time. Hence the protest in protestant.)

2. I do believe that he is probably a wise man. (You don't become pope on naught but a dream)

3. Such materialism is not confined to America. Europe (at least the 1st world parts of it) is just as materialistic and "morally indecent."

Hmm....."America is soulless and materialistic." He is just echoing the reason why a lot of Islamic people overseas hate us so much. I believe Yoga and Qi Gong masters also are along this line.

Infallibility applies to comments on scripture, dogma, and church doctrine only. The state came in the Middle Ages when you had to have land in order be important. It and everything else the Vatican has was mostly given by kings and etc anyways.

The homo priests incident wasn't his fault since he can't know every single thing that's going on thousands of miles away in a small portion of the whole church.

Church attendence in all sects has dropped way down in the past decades in Europe and in some sects here including Catholicism....

Oh wait.... Why I'm I doing this? I'm Lutheran, a traditional enemy of the pope.... Oh wait... we made peace through ecumenism...

My Italian brother the pope has spoken.

Go John Paul, your right.

The Pope is Polish Lols.
_____________________________________
Well I have to admit Western Society is "Soulless"

I think the Pope is getting at something really true, but he should have included Europe as well.

And with the 24 karat throne. Its tradition. Hundreds of Popes before him sat on that throne, the Vatican City is like a home of God. Its dressed to respect God. Sure this may not seem like a good reason, but still its meant as the Capital for the Catholic faith. I dunno...I havent looked back that far to see what was with the gold throne lol


I agree with the Pope, and I show much respect for what he has done in his life, I really get offended when disrespect him, when hes fought for freedom for many. Its like insulting a Veteran in a way. Well there are somethings

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

When this pope first came to office, everyone knew he was a bit of a hard liner (contraception etc) but he breathed new diplomatic life into the Vatican and took on Brezhnev personally. He played his part in bringing down the Soviet regime, not least with his overt support for 'Solidarity' in Poland. During WW2, he was active in resisting the Nazis in Poland and for those two great works he deserves our respect. He is now a very old and very sick man and we should excuse his less then diplomatic errors. By the way, he did not accuse Americans of being soulless, he said American society was becoming soulless. In my view that's a valid point coming from the most important religeous leader in the world.
I am not a Christian.How is it valid? And, since(i think) his followers are more numerous isn't the Dalai Lama the most important?

Wow.

I never thought I'd say the next sentence.

I agree with the Pope.

:shock:

The Pope was cooler when he was younger. Now he's just getting wierd. Those mourners have been lining up for his funeral for years!

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:That's a rather ignorant statement. The Pope excists because God must seperate himself from the sin of world, because when sin is in the presence of God it dies and a loving God does not want to kill his children. So instead a Vicar is appointed from amoung man to act as God on Earth, in the sense of carryign out his works, not becoming the Almighty himself.

i think that's kind of hypocritical for him to be calling us soulless.. isnt the pope a christian? if so, why would he refer to an entire country to be soulless? in his logic, mankind is made in the image of god, and everyone has a soul. to be soulless is to be unhuman, to be animal, to be like a rock. that's pretty degrading.. and further, the direction of a nation might be, not the citizens induvidually. i'm not a christian in the strict sense of the word, but after going to a christian (baptist.. fundamental) school for 9 years and studying and memorizing the bible every morning, i'm sure i could pull up a verse to contradict him...

Soul has nothing to do with the pope - it is the inner self . You can be souless and kiss the pope's hand all day long. It is how you treat you fellow people on earth.

you know, this is from the guy who said that condoms don't prevent aids. the guy who condemns homosexuals.
i really don't care what he says.

personally, i consider the dalai lama a much better spiritual guide. from what i know of the two, he is much wiser.
i'm just really glad i'm not catholic.

you know, this is from the guy who said that condoms don't prevent aids. the guy who condemns homosexuals.
i really don't care what he says.

personally, i consider the dalai lama a much better spiritual guide. from what i know of the two, he is much wiser.
i'm just really glad i'm not catholic.

Yes, and because he disagrees with you on this issue, you are willing to ignore all the good things he's done? That seems a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face and, I would imagine, the Dalai Lama would disagree with you.

The Pope isn't perfect, but he is a genuinely good hearted man who does the best with what he has. Why go out of your way to bash him?

As for condoms preventing AIDS...well, the Pope is actually sort of right about that. That's why it's called "Safer" sex. The chance is small, but it is statistically significant that HIV can be passed even during correctly protected sex. He also may "condemn" homosexuals, but he's brought the Catholic church closer than it's ever been to accepting them. Some two thousand years of dogma doesn't change over the course of one pontif's reign.

The Church's position on contraception is a little confusing, but fo rmost Second Vativan Catholics it's this; the best form of protection is celibacy before marriage.

Dear Pope,
1. Sell off the treasures of the vatican and feed the poor.
Better yet use the proceeds to overthrow capitalism and then put said treasures on display for all to enjoy :lol:

[quote=Celeborne]Dear Pope,
1. Sell off the treasures of the vatican and feed the poor.
[quote]The so called "treasures" you speak of belong to the Church not the Pope. What you are suggesting is the same as insisting George Bush sell the White House.

Yeah Steph...I have to agree with a few of the posters...you comments were extremely crass and something I didn't think I'd hear from someone as intelligent as you.

Even I, as a Pagan, acknowledge the good this current Pope has done..the courage he exhibited during the downfall of communism beginning with his support of the Poles in their valiant fight..his resistance to the Nazis in his youth.

His steadfastness in his positions..I admire that in any religous leader.

Let's face it...he sat across a table and forgave the man who tried to assasinate him..how many of us could do what he did?

Hmm, America is a very religious place....what about Europe?

We need to concentrate on bringing back the faith to those in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Austria, France and South Germany.

Hmm, America is a very religious place....what about Europe?

We need to concentrate on bringing back the faith to those in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Austria, France and South Germany.

And maybe next we can put the King, terrorists, communists, Archduke, Germans and Kaiser back in charge?

Most ppl couldn't give a stuff if some old guy said america is going souless, god isn't real btw!

Most ppl couldn't give a stuff if some old guy said america is going souless, god isn't real btw!

I am catholic, and I believe i speak for all American Catholics when I say, "I don't give a rats little ass"

Exactly what the soviets said about him...

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:
That is really offensive. You may not think it is, but it is very offensive to me and any other practising Catholic.

You are entitled to your opinions but please, do not make such rude and offensive coments like that again. :evil: :x

Exactly what the soviets said about him...
Great, considering most of Russia is Orthadox Christian and not Catholic

Exactly what the soviets said about him...
Great, considering most of Russia is Orthadox Christian and not CatholicDa? Desvitilna? Ya niznal!

Certain Soviet satalite states on the other hand...

wow, the Pope thinks America is "soulless"? AWESOME!!!!!

now we know we're on the right track. as long as the Catholic Church is not happy with us we are certainly doing good in the world and moving toward a better future.

wow, the Pope thinks America is "soulless"? AWESOME!!!!!

now we know we're on the right track. as long as the Catholic Church is not happy with us we are certainly doing good in the world and moving toward a better future.

Not all of us may be Christians Bottle..but a good many of us are religous...I have a soul..gifted to me by Grandfather Creator who gave my people a way to live, a faith to adhere to, and a culture to revere....I respect the Pope just as I would any religous individuals with convictions such as he.

Not all of us may be Christians Bottle..but a good many of us are religous...I have a soul..gifted to me by Grandfather Creator who gave my people a way to live, a faith to adhere to, and a culture to revere....I respect the Pope just as I would any religous individuals with convictions such as he.

But you see, these militant secular and atheist people, they have no respect for the leaders of religion - none at all. Whereas we religious people may not believe the same thing but we hae respect for leaders of other religions.

Not all of us may be Christians Bottle..but a good many of us are religous...I have a soul..gifted to me by Grandfather Creator who gave my people a way to live, a faith to adhere to, and a culture to revere....I respect the Pope just as I would any religous individuals with convictions such as he.

But you see, these militant secular and atheist people, they have no respect for the leaders of religion - none at all. Whereas we religious people may not believe the same thing but we hae respect for leaders of other religions.

Of course I'm secular and may be atheist...

Of course I'm secular and may be atheist...

Good for you.... :?

Of course I'm secular and may be atheist...

Good for you.... :?

Er, I guess you missed my earlier post on this thread then. It was breaking of your stereotype.

Er, I guess you missed my earlier post on this thread then. It was breaking of your stereotype.

What did it say?

Hum. I'm a bit odd, but I have respect for the Pope and what he says. And on this, he's absolutely right.

It's laughable how "spiritual" certain people in America think they are, and if ever there was a country that could represent soulless materialism and degradation of traditional values, it's the good ole USA. It's also laughable, some of the reactions on this thread, and actually kinda goes to show the Pope's words to be true.

Of course, many of the "spiritual" people in America have an "interesting" view of what is or isn't true...

There. On Page 1.

Hum. I'm a bit odd, but I have respect for the Pope and what he says. And on this, he's absolutely right.

It's laughable how "spiritual" certain people in America think they are, and if ever there was a country that could represent soulless materialism and degradation of traditional values, it's the good ole USA. It's also laughable, some of the reactions on this thread, and actually kinda goes to show the Pope's words to be true.

Of course, many of the "spiritual" people in America have an "interesting" view of what is or isn't true...

There. On Page 1.

Ah. Well, you have my apologies.

Let's hear it for agnosticism! w00t!

*agrees*

And about all those Church doctrines which concern being kind to your fellow human:

I don't feel like we need a 'God' or religion to tell us to be nice to each other. I feel that kindness is something humanity can express naturally w/o the need for religious regluation


And if I'm 'so material-obsessed',

How come I've logged 41 hours of community service this year?

How come I give back so much to my school by working on the student newspaper then?

yeah... i'm american. i'm completely soulless.
this past year, i've done around 90 hours of voluntary community service work. i tutored a little girl in math, so that she could pass the taks and move on to 7th grade.
i read rumi and hafiz and i'm so in love with god. i dont really have a religion though.
my church is a taco place with a live gospel band.
i constantly try to give back to my school... yeah... soulless. completely. thats me, the soulless american..
wahaha.

like i said earlier, i think thats rediculous that he called the entire country "soulless", especially when its just the government that really steers this country. so many of the people dont even agree with the direction right now... half, about. that is a ton.
the current ideals running the government may be soulless, i'll grant it that, but not the people... no one i know is soulless.

From MSN
-VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a “soulless vision of life.”

advertisement

To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church “is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world,” John Paul said.

Memo to John Paul II: SHUT UP!

I don't think that the pope was saying that all Americans are soulless and materialistic, but that American society is becoming more like this. Also since he was talking to American bishops I presume that was why he was talking about America and not Europe.

First off...maybe if his priests and bishops were busy with theological issues instead of taking turns with the altar boy their might not be this problem. Didn't know about it???? Please it has been a running joke in the US for at least the 30 years I have been alive.

I have been to the Vatican and to the Vatican Museum. At first I was awestruck, then I became physically ill. There are great pieces of artwork and history from many cultures on display there.

There is also disgusting displays of wealth on display. A gold ring with a ruby the size of my thumb in it???? How many people could that feed? That is the one thing that sticks out but there were hundreds of items that were on display for the sole purpose of showing how much wealth and power the catholic church has.

Is America in danger of loosing its soul...yes I will agree with that. But I disagree with alot of the Catholic church policy. It needs to worry about its own soul at this point.

Has the fella been to America in the past few years to claim that it is soul-less?

Has the fella been to America in the past few years to claim that it is soul-less?

I'm pretty sure he's been to most countries (and then some) with a significant amount of Catholics. Although he should take a harder line against Castro like he did against the European commies. :(

How dare any of you insult him. He's a far better person than most of us on here. For crying out loud, he's the only Pope that has made many visits to Africa, and established aid groups all throughout. If politics didn't get in the way, he'd have gotten this years Nobel peace prize.

He has good intentions, but he's helped enable some child abuse, spread misinformation about condoms, and insists homosexuality and birth control is wrong. I respect him, but I don't believe in papal infallibility or that he has a direct connection with God anymore than the rest of us do. I'm an ex-altar server (no, never touched by a priest :lol: ) and still a catholic active in my church's youth program, but still, I don't believe all the doctrine and dogma I hear.
Neither do I. But I feel that the insults on here are quite harsh.

Karol is crying about nonsense again as usual. As the Holy Mother Church continues to collapse, he has nothing better to do than call America "soulless." It is the Church that as actually lost its soul, thanks to the
Roncalli & Montini Circus that went on during the 1960s. Catholic America simply "opened its windows" to the evils of the modern world to adapt with the Church. Perhaps he should pay more attention to the crises within the Church and end his ridiculous "ecumenism" and other evils working to destroy Roman Catholicism, the only way to salvation. His "social justice" campaign and criticism of materialism among others is nothing more but him trying to work for Novus Ordo Seculorum.

I'm sure the Pope is under-informed. How can he be well informed if he spends half his time sitting in his rocky chair and wondering how the computer works? :? maybe i'm wrong, that the Pope is all high-tech and stuff, but he made a wrong move to call America soulless. who is he to judge who is soulless?

who is he to judge who is soulless?


Er...the Pope? :lol:


But really, I do think he meant society in general, ad it is somewhat true

I'm not going to let the world oldest virgin tell me what's soulful.

who is he to judge who is soulless?


Er...the Pope? :lol:


But really, I do think he meant society in general, ad it is somewhat true

that's just bad news for the americans, isn't it? :lol:

Oh well, I'll move to Australia if Society crumbles

Before I say anything else: I advise certain people to reread the article.

The Pope did not say that America was soulless; he said that we're giving way to a soulless vision of life.

People cannot be soulless like inanimate matter, but people can have a vision of life that doesn't respect people more than material posessions.

...

When discussing the concept of "love" in regards to the Catholic faith, I prefer the following definition:

Merriam-Webster OnLine (http://www.m-w.com)
love
Function: noun

4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration of God

When you love someone, you put their welfare above your own, you care about them and their growth and development, and you want what's best for them. This is true love.

...

Yep. We're materialistic. We're getting this from a guy who has his own state.

Just because any particular person (not just the Pope) has lots of posessions does not necessarily mean that he or she is devoted to those posessions.

Having lots of material posessions, per se, is not a problem; it's when you give posessions a higher priority than people that you have a problem.

And your point is.....the Pope says we should all become Catholics and quit loving our material possesions?


Umm....NO!

I don't know if you're serious or joking, here. For the sake of laying out a logical argument, I'll assume that you're serious.

Material posessions are never going to care about you; they're inanimate, truly soulless. It's impossible for your posessions to care about you. You might care a great deal about material posessions, but they will care diddly-squat about you.

More importantly, when this world passes away, whether it be by nuclear war, or asteroid impact, or the self-destruction of our Sun at the end of it's life-cycle 5 billion years from now, nothing will be left of those material posessions, but our souls will still exist and will survive death. (I acknowledge that some people don't believe in this, but this topic is partly a discussion of Catholic faith, and the Nicene Creed ends with the words "We believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.")

Some may counter-argue that certain people will have the same attitude, that certain people will not appreciate your attempts to help them. When you stop a drunk friend from driving, he/she might not care right away that you're trying to keep him/her from harm, but there's at least the possibility that they'll come around and appreciate what you've done for them. The point is that you put their well-being first and that you at least tried to do something helpful. I reiterate the point that people have souls, but inanimate posessions do not.

Dear Pope,

Piss off. I would be more likey to take life style advice from Micheal Jackson.
You sit in your own country with millions of people at your call and yet you do nothing.
If you would like me to take you seriously, I am afraid that there are a few things you will have to do.

1. Sell off the treasures of the vatican and feed the poor.

2. Excomunicate any member of your church who joins the military of any nation.

3. Stop trying to stop people from using condoms.

Thank you.

I'm not going to argue #1 as I'm not familiar with the financial situation of the Vatican.

I'm not going to argue #2 today as I have to think about it for a while. To only "Think about it for a moment" won't suffice for me in this case. Right off the top of my head, I'm inclined to assert that a military is needed in cases where someone else is being agressive and cruel. One could wish that force weren't necessary and that more peaceful means were sucessful in deterring violent agression, and one might hope that those responsible would see the error of their ways and repent, but sometimes one has to use force to put a stop to the sinning. Christ, himself, overturned the tables of the merchants and moneylenders in the Temple of Jerusalem because (if I remember correctly) they were taking monetary advantage of the people who couldn't supply their own animal sacrifices for the required rituals of the temple.

Again, the above on point #2 is right off the top of my head; I'm not fully prepared to logically argue it. I'm not going to be surprised if you manage to punch holes in it.

On point #3, I disagree with church doctrine on the use of contraceptives that prevent* fertilization (such as condoms and diaphragms). However, I can see the reasoning against all contraception. Namely, that sexual acts are very intimate and should be reserved as an epression of true love. Having sex merely as a means of physical pleasure cheapens the sexual act and deprives it of meaning. Why should sex have meaning? Because you're sharing something intimate with someone. Why share the physical, but share nothing else?

Additionally, preventive contraception isn't perfect; a child accidentally conceived by a loving couple is more likely to be loved than a child accidentally conceived by a couple who only sought their own physical pleasure.

* Contraceptives that act after fertilization I consider to be a form of abortion, and I agree with the Church that abortion is murder.

The Pope doesn't like me... BOOHOO!

Yes, I know you're being sarcastic, but I'm going to answer this, anyway.

There's a difference between not liking a person, and not liking the path a person is following. The Pope doesn't like the path we are following.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Point 1: Parkinson's Disease will do that to a person. (At least, I think I heard that it was Parkinson's.) Still, he's doing the best he can to lead the faithful.

Point 2: You'll have to elaborate on this one.

Point 3: Saint Peter was only a man. Saint Matthew was only a man. Even Saint Paul, who started out cruelly persecuting the early Christian Church and was converted by Christ, was only a man.

Take a close look at the men Jesus Christ chose to be his disciples. Peasants. Fishermen. A tax collector. Common people with common fallibilities. They made mistakes, just like we do today. Peter himself, the first Pope, was a hothead. Just read the New Testament; even through numerous translations, it's clear that Saint Peter was a brash individual on a few occassions. After the Last Supper, he denied Jesus three times when Jesus was being taken away.

...and yet, Jesus chose Peter to be the rock upon which he would found the Church. ...and Jesus chose men like him to be his disciples. Why? Because Christ saw the potential in them to become better people.

Dian commented that "Infallibility applies to comments on scripture, dogma, and church doctrine only." In all other respects, the Pope is as fallible as we are. God calls upon us to overcome our fallibilities as best we can and, in that respect, I think John Paul the Second does pretty well.

...

I think you've misunderstood what His Holiness was saying. He meant the Church was out-of-touch with modern society and needs to adapt to meet the new millenium. Namely with the Jesuit Order's call for inane and archaic guidelens like celibacy be aboslished.

And you have to admit, America is not exactly a haven of moral decency.

[Emphasis mine.]

Do you have a reliable sourece for this? I'd be interested in reading it.

...

I am catholic, and I believe i speak for all American Catholics when I say, "I don't give a rats little ass"

I assume that you are replying to the Pope's comments and not to one of the previous posters in this topic. If this is not the case, then please clarify.

As an American Catholic, I assure you, sir: You do not speak for all American Catholics.

...

Has the fella been to America in the past few years to claim that it is soul-less?

First, I'll reiterate: The Pope didn't call us soulless; he said we're turning to a soulless vision of life.

That said.... Yes, he's been to the United States in the past few years. I he was in New York a few years ago to lead a large public mass in Central Park, and there may have been other visits since.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder and Delegate of The Realm of Ambrosia

wow, the Pope thinks America is "soulless"? AWESOME!!!!!

now we know we're on the right track. as long as the Catholic Church is not happy with us we are certainly doing good in the world and moving toward a better future.

Not all of us may be Christians Bottle..but a good many of us are religous...I have a soul..gifted to me by Grandfather Creator who gave my people a way to live, a faith to adhere to, and a culture to revere....I respect the Pope just as I would any religous individuals with convictions such as he.

Well said, Salishe!

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

quit dissing the pope and look at what he said. SOMEONE has to stand up for a spiritual life and if its not the pope wtf is it gonna be??

there are better ways to live your life than just amassing mountains of stuff.

quit worrying about the messenger and take a look at the message. you may find that the pope is right

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

quit dissing the pope and look at what he said. SOMEONE has to stand up for a spiritual life and if its not the pope wtf is it gonna be??

there are better ways to live your life than just amassing mountains of stuff.

quit worrying about the messenger and take a look at the message. you may find that the pope is right

Yeah! And condoms gives people HIV. :roll:

oh oops i dint mean to imply hes right about EVERYTHING
*Shudder*
just that we need to rethink the focus of our lives

he wrong about plenty else

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

:lol: Sorry, I didn't plan on being that long-winded. It just kinda turned out that way. :)

<snip>

As I was defending what the Pope said, I assume that you're not accusing me of "dissing the Pope", but rather replying to other posters in this topic. If you are, then I apologize for the confusion and ask you to point out what part of my post is showing disrespect for the Pope.

On your comment about "amassing mountains of stuff": I agree wholeheartedly. There are far better ays to live ones life. Not everyone in America does this, of course, but many Americans do.

On your comment about "messenger/message": Agreed. Even if the Pope were being hypocritical (which I doubt), one should recall Christ's teachings about hypocrites: Listen to the hypocrites and do what they tell you, but do not follow their example.

Yeah! And condoms gives people HIV. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what the Pope has claimed on this point. The truth is that condoms, even when used correctly, are not perfect in preventing the spread of HIV or other sexually transmitted diseases. Condoms do reduce the risk, true, but the risk isn't reduced to zero.



--The Democratic States of Cogitation

no cog, i thought you made a very good defense of the pope. its good to see someone so able to defend their faith on here

no cog, i thought you made a very good defense of the pope. its good to see someone so able to defend their faith on here

Thanks. It helps if the pastor of one's parish is a straight-talking, straight-thinking man whose sermons put the Readings into clear perspective. :wink:

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

I agree with everything Cogitation said. Why is it that almost everyone seems to bear a personal grudge against the Catholic Church?

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

quit dissing the pope and look at what he said. SOMEONE has to stand up for a spiritual life and if its not the pope wtf is it gonna be??

there are better ways to live your life than just amassing mountains of stuff.

quit worrying about the messenger and take a look at the message. you may find that the pope is right

Yeah! And condoms gives people HIV. :roll:

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

Of course, you, millions of Catholics, and others need to decide for themselves whether the risk is one you wish to take.

er, well-said, Cogitation. ;)

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

quit dissing the pope and look at what he said. SOMEONE has to stand up for a spiritual life and if its not the pope wtf is it gonna be??

there are better ways to live your life than just amassing mountains of stuff.

quit worrying about the messenger and take a look at the message. you may find that the pope is right

Yeah! And condoms gives people HIV. :roll:

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

Of course, you, millions of Catholics, and others need to decide for themselves whether the risk is one you wish to take.

er, well-said, Cogitation. ;)

Akshewally, NOT using a condom is the greatest risk factor whether the sexual act is for procreation or not.

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

quit dissing the pope and look at what he said. SOMEONE has to stand up for a spiritual life and if its not the pope wtf is it gonna be??

there are better ways to live your life than just amassing mountains of stuff.

quit worrying about the messenger and take a look at the message. you may find that the pope is right
Yeah! And condoms gives people HIV. :roll:Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

Of course, you, millions of Catholics, and others need to decide for themselves whether the risk is one you wish to take.

er, well-said, Cogitation. ;)
Akshewally, NOT using a condom is the greatest risk factor whether the sexual act is for procreation or not.

Agreed. But the point still stands: the sexual act can in fact pass an STD or result in pregnancy, regardless of precautions. Also, if you read up on condom use, there is I believe a 3-12% failure rate in the first year, which represents both failure of the condom itself to the more likely improper or sloppy use (forgetting, not putting it on properly, having it fall off on withdrawal, et cetera.) Therefore, except in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances (;)) there is an infinitesimally small chance of contracting an STD or becoming pregnant if no sexual act takes place.

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Thou shalt not glorify God with quote pyramids. :lol: [/modedit]

i cant believe i read all of cogitations post

quit dissing the pope and look at what he said. SOMEONE has to stand up for a spiritual life and if its not the pope wtf is it gonna be??

there are better ways to live your life than just amassing mountains of stuff.

quit worrying about the messenger and take a look at the message. you may find that the pope is right
Yeah! And condoms gives people HIV. :roll:Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

Of course, you, millions of Catholics, and others need to decide for themselves whether the risk is one you wish to take.

er, well-said, Cogitation. ;)
Akshewally, NOT using a condom is the greatest risk factor whether the sexual act is for procreation or not.Agreed. But the point still stands: the sexual act can in fact pass an STD or result in pregnancy, regardless of precautions. Also, if you read up on condom use, there is I believe a 3-12% failure rate in the first year, which represents both failure of the condom itself to the more likely improper or sloppy use (forgetting, not putting it on properly, having it fall off on withdrawal, et cetera.) Therefore, except in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances (;)) there is an infinitesimally small chance of contracting an STD or becoming pregnant if no sexual act takes place.
If only God used a condom. :wink:

:twisted:

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Taking down the quote pyramids. [/modedit]

If only God used a condom. :wink:

:twisted:

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] No large quote pyramids, please. Thank you.

You might also want to put some actual text in here.[/modedit]

If only God used a condom. :wink:

:twisted:

God doesn't need to have sex. :P

--The Jovial States of Cogitation

If only God used a condom. :wink:

:twisted:

God doesn't need to have sex. :P

--The Jovial States of Cogitation

But I bet he watches women undress.

If only God used a condom. :wink:

:twisted:

God doesn't need to have sex. :P

--The Jovial States of Cogitation

But I bet he watches women undress.

Of course. He watches EVERYONE.
Quick, cover up, Myrth! ;)

But I bet he watches women undress.

And men, god is both male and female

But I bet he watches women undress.

And men, god is both male and female

Yep. God's a she-he, so Bush is going to hell. Yay!

Wow.

I never thought I'd say the next sentence.

I agree with the Pope.

:shock:

Yes but -

'every dog has his day'

He has good intentions, but he's helped enable some child abuse, spread misinformation about condoms, and insists homosexuality and birth control is wrong. I respect him, but I don't believe in papal infallibility or that he has a direct connection with God anymore than the rest of us do. I'm an ex-altar server (no, never touched by a priest :lol: ) and still a catholic active in my church's youth program, but still, I don't believe all the doctrine and dogma I hear.

I don't want to be insulting or anything, but how can you be a part of a religion that requires you to swear you believe everything they say just to join, and then say you don't believe it all? This is the main thing I've never understood about most Catholics - along with the whole denying people Communion thing.

I don't want to be insulting or anything, but how can you be a part of a religion that requires you to swear you believe everything they say just to join, and then say you don't believe it all? This is the main thing I've never understood about most Catholics - along with the whole denying people Communion thing.

because the catholic church is forever. its not just a bunch of people getting together on sunday until they have a big fight and break into 2 different churchs.

because the catholic church is forever.

The Catholic Church: It's not just for Easter, it's for life!

(Sorry, I know that was pointlessly baiting and rather mean spirited. I just couldn't resist.)

The Italians invented the Pope. And now people are pissed because he said the right thing.

He has good intentions, but he's helped enable some child abuse, spread misinformation about condoms, and insists homosexuality and birth control is wrong. I respect him, but I don't believe in papal infallibility or that he has a direct connection with God anymore than the rest of us do. I'm an ex-altar server (no, never touched by a priest :lol: ) and still a catholic active in my church's youth program, but still, I don't believe all the doctrine and dogma I hear.

I don't want to be insulting or anything, but how can you be a part of a religion that requires you to swear you believe everything they say just to join, and then say you don't believe it all? This is the main thing I've never understood about most Catholics - along with the whole denying people Communion thing.

Like this! :D

I don't really think that my religion is completely right, but the closest to the truth. Truth is relative though, as I don't believe in everything said by people thousands of years ago in a harsh desert climate being ruled by vicious Romans. The whole denying communion thing is basically to keep folks in line, you know, the whole thing how God is supposedly worse than Big Brother and sees you do everything. And... god... argh... can't.... stop...self....

http://www.gwbush.com/archive/images/slideshows/pope-is-yoda-bush-is-dooku-light-saber.jpg

http://www.teachpe.com/images/Popeunihoc_WEB.jpg

teh p0pezorz c4nadian!



Had to be done.

Anyway, back on topic...

The pope has passed a mandate that reads that anyone who supports abortion, birth control, or homosexuality will be denied communion. This brings up the question whether the church should have the power to control people's opinions through their distribution of jesus.

I'm not for it.

because the catholic church is forever. its not just a bunch of people getting together on sunday until they have a big fight and break into 2 different churchs.

The Catholic Church has been changing and arguing and fighting over issues since it was first started, this is nothing new. They just like to pretend like they are always, have always been, and will always be right.

The split came because (a) the Roman church had decided it should domineer over all the others even though that wasn't the original way it was set up, (b) the East and West had different views on several of the issues that had been argued for years, and (c) one priest excommunicated another on the other side so he excommunicated the other one and things got ugly.

Either way, none of this explains to me how someone can stand up in a church and swear before God that they believe everything the Pope and Church tells them when they really don't believe it all.

I don't want to be insulting or anything, but how can you be a part of a religion that requires you to swear you believe everything they say just to join, and then say you don't believe it all? This is the main thing I've never understood about most Catholics - along with the whole denying people Communion thing.

You don't have to swear that you believe everything that the Church says. To be a full member of the Catholic Church, you only have to receive 3 sacraments, and as far as I remember all you have to do is say you renounce satan, believe in the Holy Trinity, and believe in the Catholic Church. We still have the right to disagree with what the church teaches.

Either way, none of this explains to me how someone can stand up in a church and swear before God that they believe everything the Pope and Church tells them when they really don't believe it all.


uhhhh when does that happen? musta started that after i stopped going

Either way, none of this explains to me how someone can stand up in a church and swear before God that they believe everything the Pope and Church tells them when they really don't believe it all.


uhhhh when does that happen? musta started that after i stopped going

Bleh. I can't find an actual transcript of what is said during the Confirmation ceremony, but from what I understand, you swear to uphold the Catholic Chuch and its teachings, etc, etc. One of its teachings is that the Pope is infallible, thus to truly believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church, you must believe that. My ex was also a Eucharist Minister and he told me the same thing, "Yeah, sure you swear to believe in all the doctrines of the Church, but nobody actually does."

If this is true (I can't really remember, its been a long time) you may note that there is a difference between upholding something and believing in it. Someone can uphold the law, but still disagree with it.

Anyway, I haven't really had anything to disagree with yet that they have taught, so even if I did swear something without realising it, I haven't broken it. :D

oh for gods sake i was 8 years old what did i know of the subtleties of belief?

If this is true (I can't really remember, its been a long time) you may note that there is a difference between upholding something and believing in it. Someone can uphold the law, but still disagree with it.

But upholding the law isn't a voluntary thing (at least not if you want to keep all your money from going to fines and want to stay out of jail). Upholding something some priest tells you is very voluntary.

My confirmation ceremony never said you could not disagree with the Church, and I do disagree with some aspects, I believe in the overall message though, the "peace and love" thing that everyone seems to forget.

well I haven't had a priest tell me anything yet that I particularily disagree with.

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Several people have gotten confused by the original topic title "Pope says America is Soulless". This is in error. Please read the article carefully; he says that we Americans are turning to a soulless vision of life, not that we are soulless. There's a difference.

The topic title has been changed to reduce flames/flamebait/trolling and to better reflect the topic content. [/modedit]

From MSN

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a “soulless vision of life.”

advertisement

To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church “is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world,” John Paul said.

“Taking up this challenge, however, will require a realistic and comprehensive reading of the 'signs of the times,' in order to develop a persuasive presentation of the Catholic faith and prepare young people especially to dialogue with their contemporaries about the Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world.”

John Paul added: “An effective proclamation of the Gospel in contemporary Western society will need to confront directly the widespread spirit of agnosticism and relativism which has cast doubt on reason’s ability to know the truth, which alone satisfies the human heart’s restless quest for meaning.”

All bishops must visit the Vatican every five years. This year is the Americans’ turn, and several regional delegations already have met with the pope.

© 2004 The Associated Press.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. We're materialistic. We're getting this from a guy who has his own state.

Rhetorical question: Why is the... popemobile.... whatever the hell it's called.... bulletproof? If the pope is afraid to die, we should be very, very afraid.

Let's hear it for agnosticism! w00t!
I'm a gnostic. I insist on going back to the original teachings of the christian faith. Before the pope and before Emperor Constantine.

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] Several people have gotten confused by the original topic title "Pope says America is Soulless". This is in error. Please read the article carefully; he says that we Americans are turning to a soulless vision of life, not that we are soulless. There's a difference.

The topic title has been changed to reduce flames/flamebait/trolling and to better reflect the topic content. [/modedit]

From MSN

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a “soulless vision of life.”

advertisement

To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church “is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world,” John Paul said.

“Taking up this challenge, however, will require a realistic and comprehensive reading of the 'signs of the times,' in order to develop a persuasive presentation of the Catholic faith and prepare young people especially to dialogue with their contemporaries about the Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world.”

John Paul added: “An effective proclamation of the Gospel in contemporary Western society will need to confront directly the widespread spirit of agnosticism and relativism which has cast doubt on reason’s ability to know the truth, which alone satisfies the human heart’s restless quest for meaning.”

All bishops must visit the Vatican every five years. This year is the Americans’ turn, and several regional delegations already have met with the pope.

© 2004 The Associated Press.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. We're materialistic. We're getting this from a guy who has his own state.

Rhetorical question: Why is the... popemobile.... whatever the hell it's called.... bulletproof? If the pope is afraid to die, we should be very, very afraid.

Let's hear it for agnosticism! w00t!
I am gnostic. I insist going back to the christianity that existed before the Pope or Emperor Constantine.
BTW, I am opposed to the agnostics. (agnostic means "against the gnostics)

Dear Pope,

Piss off. I would be more likey to take life style advice from Micheal Jackson.
You sit in your own country with millions of people at your call and yet you do nothing.
If you would like me to take you seriously, I am afraid that there are a few things you will have to do.

1. Sell off the treasures of the vatican and feed the poor.

2. Excomunicate any member of your church who joins the military of any nation.

3. Stop trying to stop people from using condoms.

Thank you.
One the vatican is big enough for 5,000 let alone millions.
And the adherents to the Pope are in the billions, not millions.
Not that I'm for the Pope, just some corrections concerning your facts.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(
She is right. He is just a man.
The one you should be reserving your ultimate respect for is the Son of God himself. The Pope has no power to forgive you God's name. Only the son can do that.
I have nothing against this Pope. The fact is, his practice of faith has been closer to true christianity of the Bible than anyother Pope in history.
It might well be that he will be the only Pope to get into heaven.
And you might want to think twice about celebrating his retirement cause the next guy might decide he wants to start an inquisition or something.
So the longer this guy is around, the better off the world is. Cause we can't count on the next Pope to be as compassionate or populist as this one is.

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(
She is right. He is just a man.
The one you should be reserving your ultimate respect for is the Son of God himself. The Pope has no power to forgive you God's name. Only the son can do that.


But Jesus also said that the Son of Man had the power to forgive sins, and he gave his disciples this authority too - and they were also only men.
My ultimate respect is for God, but for a person on Earth, it goes to the Pope, whom I believe has a direct link to God.
Just my thoughts.

The Italians invented the Pope. And now people are pissed because he said the right thing.

Actually the office of Pontif was created by the Romans....not the Italians....

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should?

The Italians invented the Pope. And now people are pissed because he said the right thing.

Actually the office of Pontif was created by the Romans....not the Italians....
And who made up most of the Roman power base?

The Italians invented the Pope. And now people are pissed because he said the right thing.

Actually the office of Pontif was created by the Romans....not the Italians....
And who made up most of the Roman power base?

Errrr....Romans....

The Italians invented the Pope. And now people are pissed because he said the right thing.

Actually the office of Pontif was created by the Romans....not the Italians....
And who made up most of the Roman power base?

Errrr....Romans....
:lol:

Peter himself, the first Pope, was a hothead.

I know this may be viewed as confrontational, but I can't help it when I see a blatant falsehood. Peter was *not* the first pope. That was something cooked up by the Roman Catholic Church long, long after he was dead so they could try to claim that they had always had superiority. No one was called "pope" until something like 500 or 600 AD (basically around the same time the East/West split truly began). In fact, the first guy they tried to call pope (I think it may have been Leo - or maybe he really was the first one) told them not to. In a letter to one of the Eastern leaders, he specifically said something like "do not call me pope, I am no higher than you or any of the other major church leaders." Later, when the practice of electing a pope had begun in earnest, the church wrongly declared that all church leaders in Rome had always been the leader of the entire church and had always been pope.

Hooray for Italians.

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

If the church were only pushing abstinence, that would be one thing. But they also believe that sex is a marital duty. There is a video that has been distributed to many priests as an example of what they should do. In it, there is a scene from a country in Africa where a priest tells an HIV-positive man to go home and have sex with his (negative) wife. He is not, of course, to use a condom - because it is a sin and won't decrease her risk of getting the virus anyways. So, yes, the Catholic Church is *increasing* the threat of AIDs in some areas.

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

If the church were only pushing abstinence, that would be one thing. But they also believe that sex is a marital duty. There is a video that has been distributed to many priests as an example of what they should do. In it, there is a scene from a country in Africa where a priest tells an HIV-positive man to go home and have sex with his (negative) wife. He is not, of course, to use a condom - because it is a sin and won't decrease her risk of getting the virus anyways. So, yes, the Catholic Church is *increasing* the threat of AIDs in some areas.

Where is this video? How are you sure it's not fake? There's alot of anti-catholic propaganda out there.

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

If the church were only pushing abstinence, that would be one thing. But they also believe that sex is a marital duty. There is a video that has been distributed to many priests as an example of what they should do. In it, there is a scene from a country in Africa where a priest tells an HIV-positive man to go home and have sex with his (negative) wife. He is not, of course, to use a condom - because it is a sin and won't decrease her risk of getting the virus anyways. So, yes, the Catholic Church is *increasing* the threat of AIDs in some areas.

Where is this video? How are you sure it's not fake? There's alot of anti-catholic propaganda out there.

In his mind probably.

Peter himself, the first Pope, was a hothead.

I know this may be viewed as confrontational, but I can't help it when I see a blatant falsehood. Peter was *not* the first pope. That was something cooked up by the Roman Catholic Church long, long after he was dead so they could try to claim that they had always had superiority. No one was called "pope" until something like 500 or 600 AD (basically around the same time the East/West split truly began). In fact, the first guy they tried to call pope (I think it may have been Leo - or maybe he really was the first one) told them not to. In a letter to one of the Eastern leaders, he specifically said something like "do not call me pope, I am no higher than you or any of the other major church leaders." Later, when the practice of electing a pope had begun in earnest, the church wrongly declared that all church leaders in Rome had always been the leader of the entire church and had always been pope.

Wasn't the first pope Sylvester?

Really I should look it but iirc Sylvester was Constantine's Pope.

Although when I say pope I mean the Bishop in Rome rather than the universal head of the Church.

Where is this video? How are you sure it's not fake? There's alot of anti-catholic propaganda out there.

Well, I haven't personally seen it, I have only read about it in the news. Of course, Catholic doctrine *does* state that sex is a necessary marital duty and it *does* state that birth control is bad so I don't really doubt the veracity of the news.

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

If the church were only pushing abstinence, that would be one thing. But they also believe that sex is a marital duty. There is a video that has been distributed to many priests as an example of what they should do. In it, there is a scene from a country in Africa where a priest tells an HIV-positive man to go home and have sex with his (negative) wife. He is not, of course, to use a condom - because it is a sin and won't decrease her risk of getting the virus anyways. So, yes, the Catholic Church is *increasing* the threat of AIDs in some areas.

Where is this video? How are you sure it's not fake? There's alot of anti-catholic propaganda out there.

In his mind probably.

I seem to remember reading about this so I did a swift google...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

I seem to remember reading about this so I did a swift google...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

I know that I don't live in an AID stricken country but I can remember being told this at school (yes, it was a Catholic one). Although it wasn't a priest who said it. (And was actually not in tune with what more 'enlightened' teachers said).

But still, I was questioning the existence of this video tape that showed a priest effectively tell a man to give his wife Aids, rather than the some of the bullshi+ that the church propagates (which I know of first hand)

My earthly member of the staff was exagerating. I will call him to me in a few months and send you humans a new pope.

My earthly member of the staff was exagerating. I will call him to me in a few months and send you humans a new pope.

Meh, just get onw that rivals the Dalai Lama.

My earthly member of the staff was exagerating. I will call him to me in a few months and send you humans a new pope.

Meh, just get onw that rivals the Dalai Lama.

Respect :!: :!: :!:Or I will send you the seven plagues of Egypt, the Day after Tomorrow. :wink:

My earthly member of the staff was exagerating. I will call him to me in a few months and send you humans a new pope.

Meh, just get onw that rivals the Dalai Lama.

Respect :!: :!: :!:Or I will send you the seven plagues of Egypt, the Day after Tomorrow. :wink:

Nah an saffron wearing spiritualist who reincarnates will do fine.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(
She is right. He is just a man.
The one you should be reserving your ultimate respect for is the Son of God himself. The Pope has no power to forgive you God's name. Only the son can do that.
I have nothing against this Pope. The fact is, his practice of faith has been closer to true christianity of the Bible than anyother Pope in history.
It might well be that he will be the only Pope to get into heaven.
And you might want to think twice about celebrating his retirement cause the next guy might decide he wants to start an inquisition or something.
So the longer this guy is around, the better off the world is. Cause we can't count on the next Pope to be as compassionate or populist as this one is.

Actually, by divine intervention, Catholics believe that the Pope is somewhat of God's Ambassador here on earth. If you trace Papal history back to the time of Jesus, it was He who declared "You are the Rock upon which I will build my Church," when he spoke to Peter, essentially appointing him the first Pope of the Catholic religion. Every Pope since then has been the previous' successor going directly back to Peter.

his name is not Peter but Petrus, just like the great wine...(this is our housebrand here in the buddha bar) Look up to the clouds, I am waving at ya with a bottle in my hand. :P

First i laugh at the pope :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jesus said, "there is no way to God but through me..." so why do we listin to the pope? if he is a link to God I would be catolic but i am not, I am nondenominational (tounge full i know). The pope makes as much sense as praying to saints. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Perhaps not, but the incorrect use of condoms or condom failure may. If you have sex, no matter what precautions you use, there is always a chance of pregnancy or passing or contracting a sexually transmitted disease. In a sense the pontiff is correct: using a condom will expose you to a much greater chance of these things than abstinence.

If the church were only pushing abstinence, that would be one thing. But they also believe that sex is a marital duty. There is a video that has been distributed to many priests as an example of what they should do. In it, there is a scene from a country in Africa where a priest tells an HIV-positive man to go home and have sex with his (negative) wife. He is not, of course, to use a condom - because it is a sin and won't decrease her risk of getting the virus anyways. So, yes, the Catholic Church is *increasing* the threat of AIDs in some areas.

Link please?

I seem to remember reading about this so I did a swift google...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

I know that I don't live in an AID stricken country but I can remember being told this at school (yes, it was a Catholic one). Although it wasn't a priest who said it. (And was actually not in tune with what more 'enlightened' teachers said).

But still, I was questioning the existence of this video tape that showed a priest effectively tell a man to give his wife Aids, rather than the some of the bullshi+ that the church propagates (which I know of first hand)

It doesn't say there to continue having sex though -- just that it is possible to contract HIV -- and with a 10% failure rate, it IS possible.

Try to think logically: why would they tell people not to use condoms if AIDS could pass through, then tell people have unprotected sex?

BTW, I am opposed to the agnostics. (agnostic means "against the gnostics)
actually. gnosis means knowledge, gnostics claim to have knowledge. agnostics mean to lack knowledge. commonly used to mean one who does not know whether there is a god or not. a is used for lacking... ie.e achromatic is lacking colour.
it does not mean against the gnostics. if anyone was agains thte gnositcs, it was the christians who hunted them down, persecuted them and tried to destroy the other gospels.

First i laugh at the pope :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jesus said, "there is no way to God but through me..." so why do we listin to the pope? if he is a link to God I would be catolic but i am not, I am nondenominational (tounge full i know). The pope makes as much sense as praying to saints. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You do not pray TO saints. That would be idolatry. You ask them to be intercessors for you with Christ or God. Basically, think of them as holy people who have become kind of like the receptionists for Heaven. You ask them to give a message to God, he gets back to you.

I seem to remember reading about this so I did a swift google...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

Oops, it was a nun - not a priest. It had been a while since I read the article.

And to those saying this doesn't represent them spreading the virus, do read that she said not to use a condom with his wife. She did not say don't have sex at all. And again, church doctrine does view sex as a marital duty under God. Denying your spouse sex is considered to be a sin.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(
She is right. He is just a man.
The one you should be reserving your ultimate respect for is the Son of God himself. The Pope has no power to forgive you God's name. Only the son can do that.


But Jesus also said that the Son of Man had the power to forgive sins, and he gave his disciples this authority too - and they were also only men.
My ultimate respect is for God, but for a person on Earth, it goes to the Pope, whom I believe has a direct link to God.
Just my thoughts.It is written that anyone who is a true believer (follower) of Christ has their own direct link to God. If you are a true Christian, you don't need the Pope. You have your own spiritual hotline.

I basically go by the ten commandments :o


Other than that, I pick and choose, I guess I sort of have my own religion based on Catholicism, oh well.

Actually, by divine intervention, Catholics believe that the Pope is somewhat of God's Ambassador here on earth. If you trace Papal history back to the time of Jesus, it was He who declared "You are the Rock upon which I will build my Church," when he spoke to Peter, essentially appointing him the first Pope of the Catholic religion. Every Pope since then has been the previous' successor going directly back to Peter.

Of course this was all decided long after Peter's death and the Roman bishop didn't become called pope and declare himself head of the entire church until hundreds of years later, but sure, Peter was the first pope.

[
Of course this was all decided long after Peter's death and the Roman bishop didn't become called pope and declare himself head of the entire church until hundreds of years later, but sure, Peter was the first pope.

True, but rare is the parish hall that doesn't have a good long list of each and every head of the church, dating right back to Linus (who was the direct successor of Peter, so...)

The title "pope" is certainly more recent, but the Church has always had a "head" figure, the first of which was crucified upside-down, as I recall.

;) Aiera

True, but rare is the parish hall that doesn't have a good long list of each and every head of the church, dating right back to Linus (who was the direct successor of Peter, so...)

The title "pope" is certainly more recent, but the Church has always had a "head" figure, the first of which was crucified upside-down, as I recall.

;) Aiera

The church has kept track of successors and such because that was very important to them. But the truth is, until the use of the term pope, the Roman church had no more authority than the Alexandrian, or any other city warranting a bishop. All church leaders were considered equal and theological disputes were decided by votes. It wasn't until the Roman church decided to get all high and mighty that there started to be a single leader recognized (and this of course facilitated the split between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches). The Catholic Church then added to its doctrine the idea that the Roman church had always been in charge.

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should?On what authority or knowledge do you call Canada a "godless nation"? Just because they don't follow your beliefs?
There more real christians in Canada than in the US. The difference that the christians in Canada are'nt a bunch of religious fanatics foaming at the mouth to use the worlds most powerful military to force the rest of the world to adopt their puritanical and unbiblical brand of Christian theocratic government.
If you want to see real christianity, the last place you would look is the USA.
On this I agree with the Pope and that is when he says that 80% of American christians are false christians.
Just look at the so called "megachurches" for example with thier banks, McDonalds etc.
It is written that the house of God shall be a house of prayer. Yet Americans use their churches as dens of theives and robbers. Holding meetings in God's house on how to defraud people.
Worse yet, Americans are the first large group of people in history to defile the house of God with sexual immorality. With the majority of males who attend church in America that are doing it only to find a hot female they can talk out of their clothes.
You think its just american catholics that have been engaged in pedophilia? No your wrong. Its common throughout the American church regardless of denomination.
I could go on with a very long list of why Americans christians are false christians and why they have no right whatever to judge other people.
But I think I just gave you enough to chew on.
It is preferable to have communion with an athiest than a false christian which would be referred into the Bible as an antichristian.
Harsh language? Yes but it is the truth and the truth is painful for those who have been raised and taught something else entirely.
Many people like to call America the "nation under God". But in reality, God looks down on America and finds the whole nation lacking.
I write this cause Jesus said, those who pass judgement on others, let them be judged by the same yardstick that they use to judge others.
Let those who are without sin cast the first stone. None of you are without sin therefore, none of you have any right to be casting stones. None of you have any right to be passing judgement.

The Pope is an old man who's going a little , shall we say "loose" in the head.. lol..

Doesn't he go against every thing the bible is suppose to teach? I mean all that worshipping false idols and all..

The Pope is nothing but a man... I doubt he has a direct line to any thing but the bar... :lol:

Do you really have that much of a grudge against religion :(
She is right. He is just a man.
The one you should be reserving your ultimate respect for is the Son of God himself. The Pope has no power to forgive you God's name. Only the son can do that.
I have nothing against this Pope. The fact is, his practice of faith has been closer to true christianity of the Bible than anyother Pope in history.
It might well be that he will be the only Pope to get into heaven.
And you might want to think twice about celebrating his retirement cause the next guy might decide he wants to start an inquisition or something.
So the longer this guy is around, the better off the world is. Cause we can't count on the next Pope to be as compassionate or populist as this one is.

Actually, by divine intervention, Catholics believe that the Pope is somewhat of God's Ambassador here on earth. If you trace Papal history back to the time of Jesus, it was He who declared "You are the Rock upon which I will build my Church," when he spoke to Peter, essentially appointing him the first Pope of the Catholic religion. Every Pope since then has been the previous' successor going directly back to Peter.
That is why catholicism is not true christianity. The greek orthodox church is a lot closer to the real christianity.
Catholicism contains more pagan beliefs than christian beliefs. Read up on Catholic History and you will learn this for yourself.

Gee, that was a harsh post I put up.
Wonder where that came from? It just came out with a will of its own.

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

When this pope first came to office, everyone knew he was a bit of a hard liner (contraception etc) but he breathed new diplomatic life into the Vatican and took on Brezhnev personally. He played his part in bringing down the Soviet regime, not least with his overt support for 'Solidarity' in Poland. During WW2, he was active in resisting the Nazis in Poland and for those two great works he deserves our respect. He is now a very old and very sick man and we should excuse his less then diplomatic errors. By the way, he did not accuse Americans of being soulless, he said American society was becoming soulless. In my view that's a valid point coming from the most important religeous leader in the world.
I am not a Christian.How is it valid? And, since(i think) his followers are more numerous isn't the Dalai Lama the most important?

Ok, look, obviouslyvery many of you dont know much about catholicism. Its the largest would religion, with 1 billion members, and with other christian sects, it makes christianity have 1.8 billion members. If I remember correctly, the Dalai Lama is in charge of a sect of buddhism, which has 360 million members. Islam rivals christianity in that it has 1.2 billion members, but not one of its sects is larger than catholicism.
When you think about it, the pope's words on this subject are completely right, and americans are rampant in their materialism. Oh, and so many of you seem to have the opinion that the pope is always infallible. He isnt. He has to go through a lot of ceremony to speak infallibly, and he hasnt done so recently (i beleive), and popes have rarely done it throught the last 1,950 years or so. SO, the pope is the leader of the largest world religion, has a lot of reach, and obviously affects a lot of people, judging by this post as well as common sense...


PS-Catholics arent idol-worshippers. To say something like that shows your short-sightedness and stupidity. SO, do some research for yourself before condemning anything. Oh, and one last thing, dont judge someone else's religion before youve judged your own.

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should? (Insulting Text removed, namely, all of it - Ascensia)
Gee, someone has a grudge against the U.S. Communist or foreigner?

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should? (Insulting Text removed, namely, all of it - Ascensia)
Gee, someone has a grudge against the U.S. Communist or foreigner?

U.S. Communist? What's that?

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should? (Insulting Text removed, namely, all of it - Ascensia)
Gee, someone has a grudge against the U.S. Communist or foreigner?
There was nothing insulting about it. Unless you one of those misguided soul that think Americans have the right chiristianity and need to force it on the rest of the world at gun point like Bush is doing.

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should? (Insulting Text removed, namely, all of it - Ascensia)
Gee, someone has a grudge against the U.S. Communist or foreigner?

U.S. Communist? What's that?
There are a lot of communists that are christian.

Umm ... didn't th pope let some of his archbishops of the hook with the whole molestation charges by making them bishops at the vatican? Dancing around an issue only maked it worse. As to America's "soullessness" I think this nation has grown out of too many varieties of ideals and morals to have a defintion of morality that could be understood by old doctrines. On the other hand I do find myself admist of sea of poor personal standards in others and even myself. Case in Point: We fix our own moral degradation in America without the Pope because we created this problem, not the Roman Catholic Church.

I just wanted to say sorry for my earlier post.. (about the Pope) It's not that I don't believe what I said.. for that I'm not sorry.. what I am sorry for is if I offended any one here on NS, it really wasn't my intent..

Steph!~

I just wanted to say sorry for my earlier post.. (about the Pope) It's not that I don't believe what I said.. for that I'm not sorry.. what I am sorry for is if I offended any one here on NS, it really wasn't my intent..

Steph!~

Apology accepted. :D

Yeah, because the Pope is full of soul, what with damning gay people to hell and all that. And yeah, why doesn't he sell off all his riches and feed the poor?
Idiot.

"When I feed the poor, people call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, people call me a communist"
Dom Helder Camara


Now that's my kinda religious person.

You don't have to swear that you believe everything that the Church says. To be a full member of the Catholic Church, you only have to receive 3 sacraments, and as far as I remember all you have to do is say you renounce satan, believe in the Holy Trinity, and believe in the Catholic Church. We still have the right to disagree with what the church teaches.

Apparently you also have to not support homosexuals. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Midwest/05/31/gays.communion.ap/index.html

Doesn't seem like the Catholic church is very accepting of disagreements to me.

You don't have to swear that you believe everything that the Church says. To be a full member of the Catholic Church, you only have to receive 3 sacraments, and as far as I remember all you have to do is say you renounce satan, believe in the Holy Trinity, and believe in the Catholic Church. We still have the right to disagree with what the church teaches.

Apparently you also have to not support homosexuals. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Midwest/05/31/gays.communion.ap/index.html

Doesn't seem like the Catholic church is very accepting of disagreements to me.

It is unfortunate that the Church is rife with these people. It is also unfortunate that it tends to be these people who gain high office.

You people should stop picking on Steph.
She wasn't putting down Catholics.
She put down their leader with no apology, i'd be offended. Hell, I am offended. Just because Canadians enjoy living in a Godless country, the rest of us should? (Insulting Text removed, namely, all of it - Ascensia)
Gee, someone has a grudge against the U.S. Communist or foreigner?

Seems to me that you are the one who is most likey to fall into the catagory of what you consider to be a communist. Of course it is obvious that you do not have the intellectual capacity to realise this nor to even begin to comprehend the meaning of this post.

Must be sad to be you.

Apparently you also have to not support homosexuals. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Midwest/05/31/gays.communion.ap/index.html

Doesn't seem like the Catholic church is very accepting of disagreements to me.

It is unfortunate that the Church is rife with these people. It is also unfortunate that it tends to be these people who gain high office.

Just to clarify so I know which direction you are coming from: Do you find it unfortunate that the Church has people who support homosexuals that might gain office? Or do you find it unfortunate that those who would deny Communion to even more people than the Church typically denies Communion to gain high office?

Just a thought but the it oculd be that JP is wrong....

It just depends on the definition of the statement....if you are looking for emotion then perhaps one oculd say that TV fills that void...

Just a thought but the it oculd be that JP is wrong....

It just depends on the definition of the statement....if you are looking for emotion then perhaps one oculd say that TV fills that void...