NationStates Jolt Archive

I am tired of hearing about the Abu Graib Prison “abuse scandal”! I am hearing more about the “abuse” of our prisoners than I ever heard about the merciless murder of our OWN AMERICAN SOLDIERS in Fallujah. Not to mention the cruel beheading of one of our civilians! What’s wrong with us? Why do we get more upset about a little beneficial discomfort on our enemies part than we do about the sorrowful deaths of our courageous military men and women?
And another point, the prisoners are there for a reason. They aren’t innocent civilians! And you know what? If it saves the lives of our service men I fully support torture of those prisoners. And we are not even doing that! Why are we making such a fuss over a few mild methods of interrogation? And as we can see, our enemies have been doing a LOT worse to their own people, let alone to us…

The Abu Gahrib Prison “abuse scandal”? Get over it!

Firstly, no.

Secondly, even the US Army says most of the prisoners were simply swept up, and were guilty of no crime. Thousands are getting released.

Thirdly, US soldiers in Iraq aren't being murdered, they are being killed in action, and the people doing the killing are getting slaughtered 10-1 in the process. Those are pretty brave odds, in my book.

Fourthly, in declaring your support for torture, you have declared yourself unAmerican.

First of all, Paix_et_orde

the things done in that prison weren't designed to obtain information, they were really just acts of stupidity and humiliation placed upon those prisoners. You do, however, bring up a good point. I read an article by the head of Amnesty International entitled "Security is a Human Right Too". Too often people look at the issue of prisoners and human rights in black and white. On one side, you have the human rights activists just railing against the government for not protecting the rights of these prisoners. On the other, you have the government trying to preserve security by any means necessary. Very few people see that security and human rights have to be balanced, because after all, we have the right to be safe. This puts you into a gray area, where you have to sacrifice some human rights for the sake of security and vice versa.

Let's see...you seem to be trying to convey that you are an incredibly patriotic american, saying you'll do anything to help out our troops. Yet, you are supporting an atrocious abuse of other human beings. This abuse is the most un-American action we've seen since the Civil War! The Founding Fathers would be disgusted by the abuse. I'm amazed that your head hasn't yet exploded from the cognitive dissonance! That, and you (clearly) refuse to do even the slightest bit of fact-checking (evidenced by your lack of knowledge about how most of the prisoners were innocent, and your two different misspellings of "abu-GHRAIB").

If you're doing this just to troll, please reveal yourself and be spared the humiliation of a thorough flogging by almost every other Generalite. If you're serious...well, then I suppose you probably deserve that flogging.

Listen, It is not just our troops getting killed. Nick Burg, for example, was not a soldier. He was simply an American who was over in Iraq. That is not even counting the hundreds who were killed on 9/11. And, frankly, if the interrogration of a few Iraqies could have prevented that, I am all for it. I am sorry if innocent people were hurt at the Abu prison, but I would rather it them than us. Sound cruel? Too bad.

I'm tired of hearing about it, too. Let's just deal with it and move in, it happens everyday, everyone. Why should this be a big deal when all the other abuses in the world go unheard of everyday of every year prior to this?

I am glad that I am not the only American who is sick of this and the media attention that it is getting!

Frankly, I was sick of hearing about everything about this war before it began...

I think that all aspects deserve equal coverage, be it the deaths of American soldiers or the abuse of power in the prison...

Listen, It is not just our troops getting killed. Nick Burg, for example, was not a soldier. He was simply an American who was over in Iraq. That is not even counting the hundreds who were killed on 9/11. And, frankly, if the interrogration of a few Iraqies could have prevented that, I am all for it. I am sorry if innocent people were hurt at the Abu prison, but I would rather it them than us. Sound cruel? Too bad.
What does Iraq have to do with 911? NADA

What do the people of Iraq have to do with the death of Nick Berg? NADA

I'm tired of hearing about it, too. Let's just deal with it and move in, it happens everyday, everyone. Why should this be a big deal when all the other abuses in the world go unheard of everyday of every year prior to this?
With the US trying to install a "democracy" in Iraq, this is a big deal, or you haven't been reading the news?

Ask the Iraqi who was tortured if it was a big deal?

Ask the families of those prisoners who died during interrogation if it was a big deal?

Why does it matter?

Well, let's go through those "we need to invade Iraq" reasons that we keep hearing from the government:

Remember 9-11! Saddam is tied to al qaeda!... errr... oh wait... no...

well....

WMD! WMD! he's an imminent threat! .... what?.... no WMD to speak of?.... oh.

well....

He was a brutal mofo! Did unspeakeable things to his people.... killed thousands!.... torture!.... rape rooms!

What? We've killed thousands too now? And our soldiers are analy raping detainees with broomsticks?


Damn...


err...


now what?


In case you haven't missed it, the US wants this little adventure to result in a free and democratic state that is friendly to the US. Any final result other than that and this winds up being a $200 B waste of cash and human lives. You wind up just replacing one despotic regime with another.

And here's a thought.... people that you analy rape with broomsticks just don't end up feeling all that friendly to you.

So yeah - I would say that things like this are vitally important to the final outcome of this war.

-Z-

Why does it matter?

Well, let's go through those "we need to invade Iraq" reasons that we keep hearing from the government:

Remember 9-11! Saddam is tied to al qaeda!... errr... oh wait... no...

well....

WMD! WMD! he's an imminent threat! .... what?.... no WMD to speak of?.... oh.

well....

He was a brutal mofo! Did unspeakeable things to his people.... killed thousands!.... torture!.... rape rooms!

What? We've killed thousands too now? And our soldiers are analy raping detainees with broomsticks?


Damn...


err...


now what?


In case you haven't missed it, the US wants this little adventure to result in a free and democratic state that is friendly to the US. Any final result other than that and this winds up being a $200 B waste of cash and human lives. You wind up just replacing one despotic regime with another.

And here's a thought.... people that you analy rape with broomsticks just don't end up feeling all that friendly to you.

So yeah - I would say that things like this are vitally important to the final outcome of this war.

-Z-

A bit of a catch-22 with the bit about torturing citizens, eh? So how do we get out of it?

If it saves the lives of our service men I fully support torture of those prisoners. And we are not even doing that! Why are we making such a fuss over a few mild methods of interrogation? And as we can see, our enemies have been doing a LOT worse to their own people, let alone to us…

The Abu Gahrib Prison “abuse scandal”? Get over it!

I don't think putting someone in a naked human pyramid because he jaywalked is your idea of "saving an American life"


I'd know, your anything BUT American

All I have to say is those damn Iraqis deserve every ounce off pain they so call "suffer" but when you are cruel heartless devils like that you probably dont even feel pain but they sure as hell deserev it

All I have to say is those damn Iraqis deserve every ounce off pain they so call "suffer" but when you are cruel heartless devils like that you probably dont even feel pain but they sure as hell deserev it
Presumably you're just trolling, but, in case you're not, you have a strange point of view. Most Iraqis just went about living their normal lives as best they could, not murdering Americans, eating babies or anything, so I don't know why you think they all deserve it.

Some Iraqis have done bad things, but then, some US citizens have, so maybe all US citizens deserve to suffer? I don't think so, but that seems to be the conclusion of that line of thnking.

In case you're of the view that these individuals in those prisons are guilty of something here's a news flash: many of those people are simply suspects at best, they haven't been tried or convicted of anything.

As to the whole coverage issue. Well, it's well known that media gives dispropotionate coverage to events. For every event covered in the nightly news, there were hundreds of other events that just as easily ought to have been mentioned.

That's right! Those ex-US prision guard contractors were actualy merciful by US prision standards. Rape? No problem! Torture? We've got it! Murder? On the house!

I am a little annoyed with the "scandal". After all, there are more important things to worry about than a few misguided soldiers and Marines who decided it would be funny to humiliate people (although they most undoubtedly didn't think they'd get caught). One of those important things that we have forgotten is this: What about the misguided leadership of the military over in Iraq?

I have a better understanding of what those interrogators (sp?) we're thinking than most, because each and every single one of them went through the same military training that I am going through right now. All of them went to the Defense Language Institute to learn Arabic; those in the Army (called "Echoes") are then further trained in tactics to use during interrogations--none of which include humiliating the interviewee. So someone in between here and there told them it was ok to do something like what was done in Abu Ghraib (which, by the way, can be spelled a number of ways in transliterated Arabic). The question is, how far up did those orders come from?

However, what's the point? Eventually, the top brass are going to put the lid on the investigation; the lowly NCOs are going to have to take the blame, and everything will simply move on. But the military will still be wandering around aimlessly in Iraq, with NO idea of what it is supposed to do, while our leadership--and more specifically, our Commander-in-Chief--struggles to figure out why they didn't have a plan B. That's the real scandal relating to Iraq.

Unfortunately, a change in C-n-C may just make things worse.

Why are we making such a fuss over a few mild methods of interrogation?

so i take you are volunteering to have wires that for all you know are connected to a power source attached to your hands, chest, and genitals?

or perhaps for a little bit of fun we like to call "being beaten to death" (http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/torture7.jpg)?

to all the torture apologists in america i'd just like to say fuck you and i hope you all get yours.

Listen, It is not just our troops getting killed. Nick Burg, for example, was not a soldier. He was simply an American who was over in Iraq. That is not even counting the hundreds who were killed on 9/11. And, frankly, if the interrogration of a few Iraqies could have prevented that, I am all for it. I am sorry if innocent people were hurt at the Abu prison, but I would rather it them than us. Sound cruel? Too bad.

So... you're justifying torture with torture?

Geez. I had an argument ready, but you're not worth burning the three calories necessary to type it. Come back when you know the meaning of 'compassion'. Or 'humanity'. Or hell, if those are too long, try 'logic'.

An eye for an eye and the whole BLOODY world goes blind

I'm tired of hearing about it, too. Let's just deal with it and move in, it happens everyday, everyone. Why should this be a big deal when all the other abuses in the world go unheard of everyday of every year prior to this?

And we want to keep them unheard of right? The answer is more censorship? Letting it go on? Oh yes... :roll:

Why does it matter?

Well, let's go through those "we need to invade Iraq" reasons that we keep hearing from the government:

Remember 9-11! Saddam is tied to al qaeda!... errr... oh wait... no...

well....

WMD! WMD! he's an imminent threat! .... what?.... no WMD to speak of?.... oh.

well....

He was a brutal mofo! Did unspeakeable things to his people.... killed thousands!.... torture!.... rape rooms!

What? We've killed thousands too now? And our soldiers are analy raping detainees with broomsticks?


Damn...


err...


now what?


In case you haven't missed it, the US wants this little adventure to result in a free and democratic state that is friendly to the US. Any final result other than that and this winds up being a $200 B waste of cash and human lives. You wind up just replacing one despotic regime with another.

And here's a thought.... people that you analy rape with broomsticks just don't end up feeling all that friendly to you.

So yeah - I would say that things like this are vitally important to the final outcome of this war.

-Z-

So... you're justifying torture with torture?

Geez. I had an argument ready, but you're not worth burning the three calories necessary to type it. Come back when you know the meaning of 'compassion'. Or 'humanity'. Or hell, if those are too long, try 'logic'.

1. I love you Zepp!!!!

2. Teenage Angst, very well said.

I find it somewhat curious that these people who wish to use the "big picture" to justify sweeping under the carpet these abuses don't realize that the abuses are unjustified under either big or little picture perspectives.

Allow me to illustrate;

In the small picture, these people were abused by either A) a handful of people run amok in a military prison, or B) a concerted effort on the part of intelligence gatherers. If A) is true, we have a dramitic and distrubing breakdown of discipline in our US military that needs to be quickly resolved' in house". Even if it is just one "bad apple" incident it invariably shows an undermining of a unit's morale and is likely be an indication of a growing problem that the pentagon has been well aware of for some time (not a conspiricy theory, unit morale is a serious concern for the pentagon right now).

If B) is the case the results could be devestating for the civilian leadership and military advisors the Administration brought in to Iraq. It is little wonder that this possibility has been stonewalled by all Bush administration officials; in the event that B) is true either a dramatic policy shift will have to be announced that will doubtless cost them political clout in an election year. Or they will be politically forced to remove some or most of their "civilian specialists" from the Iraqi prision system and that could snowball quickly out of control.

That's small picture. Big picture; even bigger problems.

Big picture; unless the administration has an Iraqi policy plan that includes the mass dissaffection of needed support from entire demographic groups, the abuse scandal is a major blow to the "hearts and minds" aspect of this campaign. The young Iraqi men whom this scandal seemed to have targeted will be forced to chose between supporting the US; which can be seen as a humiliating ally at best (in light of the scandal), and at least tacitly supporting the insurgency; which at worst is supporting those who would see the US out of the Arabic world altogether through horrific means.

Need I mention these choices suck? The scandal MUST be resloved, not brushed aside. If we are to have any hope of truly succeeding in our stated goals, these blemishes must be addressed in a forthright manner. The reluctance of the administration to make heads roll over this is a political gambit, and an easily understandable one. I think its a poor choice however, faced with whats at stake here.

And here's a thought.... people that you analy rape with broomsticks just don't end up feeling all that friendly to you.


Hey, in some places you gotta pay good money to get a broomstick shoved up your ass, if you ask me they should be grateful to our hardworking American heros over in the god-forsaken armpit of the world.

Wow, I just sounded like Paix_et_ordre. :shock: