NationStates Jolt Archive

WELL guess what if your 18 - 25 your going to IRAQ.

as soon as june 2005!!!!!!!!!


inless you get bush out of office, or you stop these bills that will reinstate the draft, from being passed.

this is what our goverment is really working on.

dont run to canada, they will catch you there to, and you will be penalized.


so save me, and yourselves from our evil goverment. :evil:

:x

When will people get a clue?

What?

:wink:

Shoot..a lot of kids I know could use a little discipline and focus of purpose that the military gives...I did it for over 20+ yrs..both my sons are in it..one is going on his third tour of duty, the younger his second, both fine upstanding men, who are undergoing continuing education, have families of their own with children..

glad i already live in canada. :D

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

To be completely honest, the June 2005 date is based on legislation that is currently pigeonholed in Congress. This legislation also removes college deferrments, National Guard service and drafts both men and women. Also, it's important to note that Kerry also supports a draft, or social service of some sort, for all young people. This issue no longer neatly breaks down party lines and if you are truly opposed to conscription (which I most certainly am) then you need to fight the idea of the draft itself, not depend on a political party to protect you from it. Try this site for more information on how to work to make sure conscription can not happen in a country that values individual freedom as well as freedom of conscience

http://www.nisbco.org/

:x

When will people get a clue?

I hear the draft has been pigeonholed, but this is the government we're talking about, so don't let your guard down.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrifice of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

glad i already live in canada. :D
Any room in your basement? I'll bring junk food.

WELL guess what if your 18 - 25 your going to IRAQ.

as soon as june 2005!!!!!!!!!

...these bills that will reinstate the draft...

...

dont run to canada, they will catch you there to, and you will be penalized.

...

If I am not on NationStates for a while, I may be taking a long summer vacation in Britain. :wink:

This message has been edited to add a wink to make a point - I was just joking.

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrificeIf they were that brave they would have stayed in the US, and gone to prison for their convictions of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and have buried 19 of my friends since then I certainly have the right to call them cowards, my friends died so some rich, spoiled college kid, like your research physicist, could live it up in Canada

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrificeIf they were that brave they would have stayed in the US, and gone to prison for their convictions of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and have buried 19 of my friends since then I certainly have the right to call them cowards, my friends died so some rich, spoiled college kid, like your research physicist, could live it up in Canada

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

Frankly, I've already been planning for the past year or so to move up there. My family intends on moving there if Bush gets re-elected....

ANd this may sound rather assinine, but why would one get in trouble for moving to Canada, to get around the draft? Would they still try to get people like me, who've been planning for a while? O.o

Cuba libre!!!

Hahaha! I have glasses to fool the man from the draft board!

To be completely honest, the June 2005 date is based on legislation that is currently pigeonholed in Congress. This legislation also removes college deferrments, National Guard service and drafts both men and women. Also, it's important to note that Kerry also supports a draft, or social service of some sort, for all young people. This issue no longer neatly breaks down party lines and if you are truly opposed to conscription (which I most certainly am) then you need to fight the idea of the draft itself, not depend on a political party to protect you from it. Try this site for more information on how to work to make sure conscription can not happen in a country that values individual freedom as well as freedom of conscience

http://www.nisbco.org/

Nice point. I myself wouldn't be in favor of a draft (I'm a pacifist).

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrificeIf they were that brave they would have stayed in the US, and gone to prison for their convictions of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and have buried 19 of my friends since then I certainly have the right to call them cowards, my friends died so some rich, spoiled college kid, like your research physicist, could live it up in Canada

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

You beat me to the punch Salishe.

First off, I'd like to say thank you for your service to our country. Men like you are my heros!

Garaj Mahal, if they dodged the draft, they are cowards! Why should they be allowed to live when great men like Salishe's friends have died? Being from Alabama myself, I am ashamed at knowing that we had cowards such as that man living in my state...

Back on topic, the draft really isn't that bad of an idea. While I doubt it would be necessary for Iraq, it would be a good system. For example, Israel has survived because of mandatory service for men. If we had more guys going through the military at one point in their life I'm sure our country would be a lot better.

LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now.

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrificeIf they were that brave they would have stayed in the US, and gone to prison for their convictions of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and have buried 19 of my friends since then I certainly have the right to call them cowards, my friends died so some rich, spoiled college kid, like your research physicist, could live it up in Canada

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

You beat me to the punch Salishe.

First off, I'd like to say thank you for your service to our country. Men like you are my heros!

Garaj Mahal, if they dodged the draft, they are cowards! Why should they be allowed to live when great men like Salishe's friends have died? Being from Alabama myself, I am ashamed at knowing that we had cowards such as that man living in my state...

Back on topic, the draft really isn't that bad of an idea. While I doubt it would be necessary for Iraq, it would be a good system. For example, Israel has survived because of mandatory service for men. If we had more guys going through the military at one point in their life I'm sure our country would be a lot better.

LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now.

I wouldn't mind seeing some traitors go to Canada. We could harbor more Canadian criminals then, too.

Im not goin to any dam draft and Im not goin to leave the country either--Ill only go if the Bush twins are drafted with me or no dice

I don't want a draft as much as the next person. But if I'm called, I'll go. After all, the military seems to be a bargain. Historically, it has a low mortality rate, and it gives out perks, like paid college. These benefits, I believe, also go conscripts.

I swear..it's not like every soldier/sailor/airman/Marine is going into combat, there are numerous fields which are entirely logistical, administrative, medical, or otherwise non-combat related.

Military service gives disciplined to the undisciplined....focus, purpose of mind..,makes you goal-orientated, makes you mature...

I saw half the world before I was 25...saw things most of you kids will only see in history books..the Eiffel Tower, the fortress at Gilbraltar, the markets in Marakesh, Moracco, Buddhist temples in Thailand, icy fjords of Norway, the placid waters of the South Pacific...and the tempest storms of the North Atlantic, beaches and dance clubs in Rio de Janeiro, etc.etc

You gain comrades that will last you a lifetime...

I guess none of these things matter nowadays with today's youth perhaps, I'd hate to think my sons were the last generation to believe the military can do a young man a world of good.

dp

oh a kingdom for a server

damn server

I hate it when people pump out a few paragraphs and the server makes a triple post.

Salishe and Shinoxia, I disagree with you. Any Draft stinks of totalitarianism. Nations shouldn't force their populace to go along with their leader. Remember, that not everyone votes for them, so they are under no obligation to serve them, and do what they say.
I have much respect for any soldier who has fought for their nation, but to force it upon someone is not the way to go.

"LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now."

What if, in a surprise election <generic bad guy> was voted in. Are you saying you'd stay, despite your intense dislike of him, and given the option of leaving? there's patriotism, and there's taking it too far.

pre-post Edit. Reading the newest post by Salishe, you make a fair point. There are people though, who cannot abide by the military, and may want to remain undisciplined, and are perfectly happy the way they are You may be thankful for what the military done for you, but it is incorrect to make it a blanket statement. Also, usually, you will always be in some risk of being killed, there have been several non-combatants killed in Iraq, and people may just not want to risk their lives. Call it cowardice, but it's never that black and white.

So essentially, to sum up this convoluted (well, maybe it's spelled like that) stream of consciousness. The gov't shouldn't force anyone to do anything, and I classify it as force when the alternative is jail. You don't have to like the leader of your nation, and leaving because of it does not make you less patriotic. As I said before, imagine that the roles were reversed, and you were given the opportunity to leave.

Salishe and Shinoxia, I disagree with you. Any Draft stinks of totalitarianism. Nations shouldn't force their populace to go along with their leader. Remember, that not everyone votes for them, so they are under no obligation to serve them, and do what they say.
I have much respect for any soldier who has fought for their nation, but to force it upon someone is not the way to go.

"LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now."

What if, in a surprise election <generic bad guy> was voted in. Are you saying you'd stay, despite your intense dislike of him, and given the option of leaving? there's patriotism, and there's taking it too far.

pre-post Edit. Reading the newest post by Salishe, you make a fair point. There are people though, who cannot abide by the military, and may want to remain undisciplined, and are perfectly happy the way they are You may be thankful for what the military done for you, but it is incorrect to make it a blanket statement. Also, usually, you will always be in some risk of being killed, there have been several non-combatants killed in Iraq, and people may just not want to risk their lives. Call it cowardice, but it's never that black and white.

So essentially, to sum up this convoluted (well, maybe it's spelled like that) stream of consciousness. The gov't shouldn't force anyone to do anything, and I classify it as force when the alternative is jail. You don't have to like the leader of your nation, and leaving because of it does not make you less patriotic. As I said before, imagine that the roles were reversed, and you were given the opportunity to leave.

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

Just quoting myself because Shalishe and Shinoxia conveniently ignored that point while jumping on my other ones.

Tell me this: can't a person object to the draft and STILL honour those who sacrificed their lives in war? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Yes, those who have been killed or maimed in war *have* sacrificed much more than draft resisters did. No one would dispute that. Those who've been through combat deserve our respect and gratitude.

11Nov is Canada's Remembrance Day. I always wear the red poppy and tell everyone exactly why I do. My parents lost many, many friends and comrades in WWII and they made me fully aware of what those sacrifices meant.

Living & fighting through war made my Dad very Anti-War and Anti-Nationalism. He has several medals and he has always refused to wear them.

Dad taught me those values. Was he wrong to have?

But just as every soldier has his own story, so does every draft resister. It's wrong to make blanket judgements against every one of them, just as it's wrong to judge all soldiers the same way.

I imagine that had I served in Viet Nam, I too might feel anger at draft resisters - I understand why Salishe feels the way he does. Maybe the biggest battle we can fight is in our hearts, defeating our anger and being big enough to forgive.

You know what's worse than the U.S. draft resisters living out their lives in Canada? The injustice that Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger et al got to enjoy comfortable and wealthy old age.

i think president bush is an awesome Christian president! everyone who protests against the war in iraq has somehow failed to see that saddam was a threat! it was our choice: fight him in iraq, eliminate his power, or have him grow and suffer another 9/11. i dont think anyone wants that. God bless America and George Bush!!
sincerely,
the queendom of hornblower

i think president bush is an awesome Christian president! everyone who protests against the war in iraq has somehow failed to see that saddam was a threat! it was our choice: fight him in iraq, eliminate his power, or have him grow and suffer another 9/11. i dont think anyone wants that. God bless America and George Bush!!
sincerely,
the queendom of hornblower

I feel no obligation to sacrifice my life to aid the subjugation of other countries or protect the ruling class.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

kudos, Graj. Resisting the draft doesn't necessarily mean you don't have respect for veterans--occasionally, yes, but not this time.

However...

I support the draft. Sure, nobody can doubt that war sucks, and going to war sucks more. But let's think about what happens when, say, high school kids say the Pledge of Allegiance (with or without Under God, it doesn't matter). The whole point of saying the Pledge at all, which has nothing to do with God, is as a memorial to those who bravely fought in wars of the past to preserve America's freedoms and the safety and security of those at home. But who thinks about that anymore? It would do a lot of good for many people to serve the nation, both to keep them out of trouble, and to give them a sense of national pride. Granted, America's freedoms were never threatened by Saddam Hussein, and citizens' safety was little if at all. But I'm not thinking about Iraq, I'm just thinking about what good military service would do for many of our citizens. After all, people who were going to college would still be able to go to college, and the money that young soldiers would get paid would be enough to continue their own education when they got back home, if indeed they ever left the continental US. The people who weren't going to college, or who weren't going into a trade that was needed in wartime, could benefit financially and could have a growing experience in the military, whether they saw actual combat or just guarded a State-side base. Plus, the civilian crime rate that is added to by high-school graduates and dropouts would drop dramatically.

War sucks, as previously mentioned. But the majority of our active duty forces aren't in Iraq, which is better, at least.

Dont make this into a bush argument ok?


If you wanted the war in Iraq it should be your duty to be there. But why would you send people who did not want to go in the first place? I am sure that not many of the soldiers want to be there. How can you create war if you have never actually been in one? Or condone it for that matter? If you were on the front lines or an "acceptable risk" I believe that you would not want anyone who is not in the foxhole next to you deciding what 'threats'you eliminate.

So Stand up and Enlist, because you don't want another 9/11 do you?

No I do not support removing peoples right to free choice, So NO DRAFT.

Bullshit, there won't be a draft. The military doesn't want it, and it has plenty of volunteer's to fill it's needs.

Dont make this into a bush argument ok?


If you wanted the war in Iraq it should be your duty to be there. But why would you send people who did not want to go in the first place? I am sure that not many of the soldiers want to be there. How can you create war if you have never actually been in one? Or condone it for that matter? If you were on the front lines or an "acceptable risk" I believe that you would not want anyone who is not in the foxhole next to you deciding what 'threats'you eliminate.

So Stand up and Enlist, because you don't want another 9/11 do you?

sure, our soldiers don't like being in Iraq. but they are indeed soldiers. they're in the MILITARY, remember, if Uncle Sam needs them on the front lines they can't say "hey, I didn't get into the Army so I could fight!"

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

Just quoting myself because Shalishe and Shinoxia conveniently ignored that point while jumping on my other ones.

Tell me this: can't a person object to the draft and STILL honour those who sacrificed their lives in war? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Yes, those who have been killed or maimed in war *have* sacrificed much more than draft resisters did. No one would dispute that. Those who've been through combat deserve our respect and gratitude.

11Nov is Canada's Remembrance Day. I always wear the red poppy and tell everyone exactly why I do. My parents lost many, many friends and comrades in WWII and they made me fully aware of what those sacrifices meant.

Living & fighting through war made my Dad very Anti-War and Anti-Nationalism. He has several medals and he has always refused to wear them.

Dad taught me those values. Was he wrong to have?

But just as every soldier has his own story, so does every draft resister. It's wrong to make blanket judgements against every one of them, just as it's wrong to judge all soldiers the same way.

I imagine that had I served in Viet Nam, I too might feel anger at draft resisters - I understand why Salishe feels the way he does. Maybe the biggest battle we can fight is in our hearts, defeating our anger and being big enough to forgive.

You know what's worse than the U.S. draft resisters living out their lives in Canada? The injustice that Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger et al got to enjoy comfortable and wealthy old age.

It's not a question of being able to honor the fallen and reject the draft.

In any nation, you can't simply pick and choose which laws to obey.

Only a tiny amount of the draft resisters ran to Canada. They are cowards. They would run from Canada if (now this is a huge if) it found itself in a war and needed soldiers.

A coward runs. Standing for your principles means also taking the punishment that can result from your actions.

I will bet that Salishe wouldn't have an issue with a guy that refused to fight and then sat in a prision for a short spell.

Salishe also pointed out a very important fact. Only a small portion of the army actually does the fighting. The rest are all support. That is why when you read about breakthroughs being so devistating.

Just because you were drafted; doesn't mean you would find yourself trudging through a swamp.

Two buddies servered. One was a Ranger and fought. The other wanted to fight and he was sent to Germany to work on tanks.

As to your dad and the medals.... Well I can't speak for him. Only my family and friends. Everybody saw heavy combat and were highly decorated. They never showed their medals simply because they didn't see the need for it.

It was just a job they had to do.

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

Just quoting myself because Shalishe and Shinoxia conveniently ignored that point while jumping on my other ones.

Tell me this: can't a person object to the draft and STILL honour those who sacrificed their lives in war? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Yes, those who have been killed or maimed in war *have* sacrificed much more than draft resisters did. No one would dispute that. Those who've been through combat deserve our respect and gratitude.

11Nov is Canada's Remembrance Day. I always wear the red poppy and tell everyone exactly why I do. My parents lost many, many friends and comrades in WWII and they made me fully aware of what those sacrifices meant.

Living & fighting through war made my Dad very Anti-War and Anti-Nationalism. He has several medals and he has always refused to wear them.

Dad taught me those values. Was he wrong to have?

But just as every soldier has his own story, so does every draft resister. It's wrong to make blanket judgements against every one of them, just as it's wrong to judge all soldiers the same way.

I imagine that had I served in Viet Nam, I too might feel anger at draft resisters - I understand why Salishe feels the way he does. Maybe the biggest battle we can fight is in our hearts, defeating our anger and being big enough to forgive.

You know what's worse than the U.S. draft resisters living out their lives in Canada? The injustice that Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger et al got to enjoy comfortable and wealthy old age.

It's not a question of being able to honor the fallen and reject the draft.

In any nation, you can't simply pick and choose which laws to obey.

Only a tiny amount of the draft resisters ran to Canada. They are cowards. They would run from Canada if (now this is a huge if) it found itself in a war and needed soldiers.

A coward runs. Standing for your principles means also taking the punishment that can result from your actions.

I will bet that Salishe wouldn't have an issue with a guy that refused to fight and then sat in a prision for a short spell.

Too many people are ready to take what their country and or goverment will hand out. Yet, when called on, they all of a sudden turn into moralists.

Salishe also pointed out a very important fact. Only a small portion of the army actually does the fighting. The rest are all support. That is why when you read about breakthroughs being so devistating.

Just because you were drafted; doesn't mean you would find yourself trudging through a swamp.

Two buddies served. One was a Ranger and fought. The other wanted to fight and he was sent to Germany to work on tanks.

As to your dad and the medals.... Well I can't speak for him. Only my family and friends. Everybody saw heavy combat and were highly decorated. They never showed their medals simply because they didn't see the need for it.

It was just a job they had to do.

Salishe and Shinoxia, I disagree with you. Any Draft stinks of totalitarianism. Nations shouldn't force their populace to go along with their leader. Remember, that not everyone votes for them, so they are under no obligation to serve them, and do what they say.
I have much respect for any soldier who has fought for their nation, but to force it upon someone is not the way to go.


Hmmmm. A draft(at least in the American sense) is something the goverment votes on. It isn't expected. That hardly makes it totalitarianism.

Even Viet Nam had ways to not get drafted(going to college).

As to serving in the army in times of need? Well if you feel you shouldn't have to then you shouldn't live in that country. It's not about serving the desires of one man, its defending the principles you think are right(lets not degrade this with the morality of Iraq).

You have to wonder about people who are so ready to take what their country has to offer and then scream about totalitarionism if the country calls on them.


"LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now."

What if, in a surprise election <generic bad guy> was voted in. Are you saying you'd stay, despite your intense dislike of him, and given the option of leaving? there's patriotism, and there's taking it too far.


All right look it this way. I doubt LGD is Jewish and we know the Shrub is not Hitler. So why leave the country? Why leave it because one dimplehead might get re-elected and bother us for 4 more years?


pre-post Edit. Reading the newest post by Salishe, you make a fair point. There are people though, who cannot abide by the military, and may want to remain undisciplined, and are perfectly happy the way they are You may be thankful for what the military done for you, but it is incorrect to make it a blanket statement. Also, usually, you will always be in some risk of being killed, there have been several non-combatants killed in Iraq, and people may just not want to risk their lives. Call it cowardice, but it's never that black and white.


700 people out have 140000 is still a tiny percentage.

My buddies grandfather toted a rifle all through WWII. Africa through VE day. He never once fired it at a German or an Italian.


So essentially, to sum up this convoluted (well, maybe it's spelled like that) stream of consciousness. The gov't shouldn't force anyone to do anything, and I classify it as force when the alternative is jail. You don't have to like the leader of your nation, and leaving because of it does not make you less patriotic. As I said before, imagine that the roles were reversed, and you were given the opportunity to leave.

You can't pick and choose what laws to follow. You want to take the good things from being in a nation, you also get a chance to have to take the bad things.

I wouldnt pass the physical requirements to get drafted. I cant even do a pullup or run a mile in less than 8 minutes. *thumbs up*

Don't bank on that one!

Unless you have a medical condition that causes that, you will get drafted! :wink:

Don't bank on that one!

Unless you have a medical condition that causes that, you will get drafted! :wink:

AWWW....awwww thats weak

*moves to antarctica*

Bullshit, there won't be a draft. The military doesn't want it, and it has plenty of volunteer's to fill it's needs.

Absolutely true. I'm not up on how desparate the military is for new recruits, but Bush would have to be a fool to endorse something this unpopular, no matter if its right or wrong.

Bullshit, there won't be a draft. The military doesn't want it, and it has plenty of volunteer's to fill it's needs.

Absolutely true. I'm not up on how desparate the military is for new recruits, but Bush would have to be a fool to endorse something this unpopular, no matter if its right or wrong.

Agree!

Besides the talk of the draft is more about politics then need. The Demos keep bringing it up because many "patriots" would suddenly change their mind if they found they or their children might have to go.

Bullshit, there won't be a draft. The military doesn't want it, and it has plenty of volunteer's to fill it's needs.

Absolutely true. I'm not up on how desparate the military is for new recruits, but Bush would have to be a fool to endorse something this unpopular, no matter if its right or wrong.

I take that back, look at Iraq! :shock:

I agree with Salishe on the benefits of the military. I was able to see a lot of the world I would never have had the chance to otherwise. The friends I met during my time hold a special place that no one can ever describe. Its that feeling of having been through something together that will hold our bond for the remainder of our lives. Were my son to ever come up to me and tell me he is joining up, I would feel proud. Granted, that will be a while from now of course and it will be his choice.

Those that joined up or were drafted and served possess a certain courage and conviction to their country. However, I've always felt that those people who resisted the draft also had a unique courage of conviction as well. The courage that they felt strong enough about their beliefs, or of what they feel about their country. I reserve my anger for those people who speak lovingly about war and the glories but when it came time for them to serve, they found a way to opt out instead. Its one thing to be opposed, its another to serve. Both are courageous in their intent. But to scream charge and then wait in the shadows for others to do what you refuse? That's cowardice in my opinion.

Frankly, I've already been planning for the past year or so to move up there. My family intends on moving there if Bush gets re-elected....

ANd this may sound rather assinine, but why would one get in trouble for moving to Canada, to get around the draft? Would they still try to get people like me, who've been planning for a while? O.o

Can you please post a postal address where we can reach you, so when President Bush is re-elected in a landslide, we can make sure you have left our fair nation and moved on to the Politically Correct hole that is Canada. The same Canada that relies on America for her defense. The same Canada whose entire economy is reliant on America, and her population is reliant on endless streams of non-English or French speaking immigrants, since most of the productive and smart Canadians moved to America to have a better life, away from the high VAT tax, and endless gov't programs.

If you really do have the cajones to leave America, please take others with you, because when the Islamists try to take over America, I don't need pacifists like you getting in the way of me shooting a few radical islamists in the head.

Thank you,
-Free Virginia

I guess no one else remembers that during the Vietnam War 10 000 Canadians went south of the border to join the American Military for active overseas duty. During the 1st Gulf War over 5000 Canadians were turned away at the border trying to join up for the prospect of combat duty. We may play nice with others on the international stage, without the need to run amok in other people’s countries except as peacekeepers, but many Canadians still long for a chance at combat duty. I personally know guys who joined the French Foreign Legion or US Rangers to see action, because they knew that they’d see very little in the Canadian Army. In my Canadian high school we had 2 teachers that left the US to avoid the Vietnam War draft and 2 who served in Vietnam and afterwards chose to live in Canada. The reception of draft dodgers in Canada depends mostly on whom you talk to. To me it depends only on the reason. If it was cowardice (like Sylvester Stallone getting a fake doctor’s note to excuse him from duty so he could stay in the US and do pornographic films) then it’s one loser we just don’t need up here, but if it was a stand on ideals that’s another matter altogether.

Personally I view the Citizen Soldier as the ultimate expression of Democracy. What I don’t like about the Draft is that it is a dilution of the professionalism of the Military, by a bunch of people who probably don’t want to be there or shouldn’t be there. Military Drafts should have the option of active Peace Corps service for those who object on moral stances. If the average guy is not willing to go to a combat theatre to serve their country, then there’s a good chance the war probably isn’t all that legitimate. The biggest problem of the Draft is how the Americans use it. Having individuals do tours, with individual draftees going to serve and leaving as individuals makes for non-existent unit cohesion (as was pretty obvious in Vietnam). The US needs to think of the Draft in terms of Battalion rotations, with Battalions doing their tours together and not cycling in individuals to mess with any chance of having cohesion. I’ve always contested this as one of the more stupid things the US Military does, in their quest to be different from the other kids for the sake of being different from the other kids.

I also think that the idea of an equal opportunity Draft, men and women, isn’t going to play well in the Southern US States or the Mid-West. If this is implemented you’re going to be dealing with a whole bunch of instant pregnancies to avoid combat duty on a very large scale, something that mixed gender forces have always had to contend with in small amounts. I also feel that for a guy like Bush, the whole college deferment and Nation Guard service thing smacks of hypocrisy in a very large way. The other big problem you have with the Draft is to provide gang members with military training and access to military weapons. With wide scale drafting of the populace it will be very hard to keep track of the gang members and fringe groups getting some free military training from the Government.

The Bruce

Whether we like it or not is one of the principle foundations of this great young nation of ours. That whole boondoggle about that second amendment stuff is based on the nature of conscription in this country, and simply stated, it is the responsiblity of the people to serve and protect their country. I am not, have not been, nor believe I will ever be in any of the armed forces of the United states, but I have been registered since the day I turned 18.
the real issue is "is it better to be based on conscription, where your country will call on you in a time of it's need, or a MANDATORY enlistment...

The draft is dead in the US. Really, truely dead, gone and buried, never ever to return, except as a boogy man for the leftists and conspiracy theorists, and a headline grabber for politicians.

Why The Draft Is Really, Really Dead and Gone (http://www.strategypage.com/search.asp?target=d:\inetpub\strategypageroot\dls\docs\200459.htm&search=conscription) (by James Dunnigan)
Rumor aside, draft's return most unlikely (http://globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040524-unlikely-draft.htm)

Just because you and yours are not volunteering, does not mean that there are not enough volunteers. There are. There is also a congressional "cap" on troop numbers. The military has actually raised enlistment standards to keep the numbers down. Also, right now, re-enlistments are up overall. (There are certain specalties the military is having problems retaining, but that is a different topic.)
In other words, if you want to increase the number of people in uniform, raise the congressional limits of troop numbers and sweeten re-enlistment bonuses for pilots, programmers, and SOFs.

Re-enlistments (http://www.strategypage.com/search.asp?target=d:\inetpub\strategypageroot\dls\docs\200448.htm&search=re-enlistments)

Finally, those who fled the draft are cowards. Draft dodging was the moral equivallant of desertion, and ought to have been treated as such, both socially and legally. If you disagree with a law, fight it. Engage in civil disobediance. Those who went to jail, and took their punishment did the moral thing. Those who fled to Canada and elsewhere, were moral cowards. Those who hid behind flimsy, questionable deferments, medical, college, or other, were the worst, as they brought those who really qualified for such defferments into disrepute.

Bullshit, there won't be a draft. The military doesn't want it, and it has plenty of volunteer's to fill it's needs.

Absolutely true. I'm not up on how desparate the military is for new recruits, but Bush would have to be a fool to endorse something this unpopular, no matter if its right or wrong.

Yup. I remember when Donald Rumsfeld said in a speech, over and over that a draft is not the way to raise a military.

This whole eternal "draft scare" is just some stuff concocted by Aaron Russo and his type in the "Tinfoil Hat Paranoid" fringe of the Libertarian Party (which as a member, is itself a fringe). Howard Dean and the Democrat Underground also try to hype this non-story over and over. The only way I see a draft happening is if some major bigger than 9-11-2001 event happens, which really a draft wouldn't be needed cuz I think we'd wipe the Middle East off the map, once we figure out the perps.

Although I disagree with President Bush on a few issues, I am 100% behind him, because he is the best President we have had in a long time (who is my favorite recent President tied with Ronald Reagan)
God Bless America's Armed Servicemen and women and their families :-)

- Free Virginia

when did we start calling them "draft resisters" and stop calling them cowards?

when did we start calling them "draft resisters" and stop calling them cowards?

Prolly with the advent of the Commie News Network, and the Clinton Co-Presidency. Stupid Politically correct words.

when did we start calling them "draft resisters" and stop calling them cowards?

Prolly with the advent of the Commie News Network, and the Clinton Co-Presidency. Stupid Politically correct words.


-Click-

There we go!

Did anyboy have this time for when Clinton would be mentioned? Anybody?

...the Politically Correct hole that is Canada. The same Canada that relies on America for her defense. The same Canada whose entire economy is reliant on America, and her population is reliant on endless streams of non-English or French speaking immigrants, since most of the productive and smart Canadians moved to America to have a better life, away from the high VAT tax, and endless gov't programs.


Man, I've seen some amazingly obnoxious bullscat on this site, but this is one of the biggest, stinkiest piles ever. Are you always such an ignoroid or have you been into your daddy's moonshine?

There are plenty of Americans who *aren't* avoiding anything who happily move to Canada for a good life - many will tell you a better one than they could have had stateside.

I'm not saying Canada is better than the U.S. - but it IS every bit as good, in every way. If you had any balls you'd come up here for a spell and really see for yourself rather than spewing on about things you have no idea about.

Don't bank on that one!

Unless you have a medical condition that causes that, you will get drafted! :wink:

...My leg is broken... *gets a hammer*

the reason the draft was ended was because it put people in to the military who have no business being there. Only people who want to join the army should. And with the amount of propaganda you have, it should be easy enough. Draftee's make poor soldiers and get others and themselves killed. The draft is bad, and bush is a total idiot. Putting more people in the army while lowering taxes will not fix the economy but sink it. Putting 180k in to training a deserter will only rob you of more and more money and cause your dollar and country to sink ever lower. Vote Kerry...he will at least raise taxes.

Guess what Dick (since it sounds like this person who started this thread is definetly not american) their has been talk ever since the late 80's of reinstating the draft. And guess what else, only 12% of the population (men and women) are eligible to join the Army. If the congressman and senators want to fix our problems of the "decline" in the numbers in our armed forces they should quit promising their constituents that they will cut taxes and lower defense spending. The Army has to turn people away because of lack of funding, since we can't get the numbers we desire we go for better equipment, which hasn't let us down (I don't wanna hear any Frenchies say "but what about Vietnam, you had the technological advantage there." well so did you, and they used you for practice before fighting us.) I support a large Army, after all, we don't need to worry about other country's opinions (it is pathetic how we have to treat the rest of the world as equals) if we just go out and grind them into the ground.

Besides, military service is good for an individual, it teaches they discipline and gives them experiences they can take home with them. Also, they would get drafted most lilkely for a 5 year tour of duty (peacetime, not during a real war, like Vietnam), you can spend four years out of the five in college, the Army will pay for it.

I have been heavily recruited by the Army and the Marines Corp. The Marines, despite being smaller, have a comparable budget to work with, so they can be more picky about who they go and get, but in the Marines you don't get to chose your career (you make a list of interested fields and they try to get you in one of those), but in the Army it is right there in you enlistment papers where you choose what you want to do, tanks, artillery, Apaches, ground pounder, what ever you want.

If their was a draft I would not have to worry about it, I am the only son in my family, I am exempt, I am still going to join the Army after I graduate, we get so much from the government (we pay half as much as most of Europe on gas for example, that is the governments doing) we should give something in return. And the Army pays good too, sure your salary may only be somewhere in the area of $15,000 a year but you get to pocket all of that, how many other jobs can claim that? And come one, Popeye's Chicken on every overseas military base, you can't beat that.

I like Israel's system for the military Draft, all men serve 3 years and all women serve 2 years (I am sure their are exemptions, I just don't know what they are).

I support our troops in Iraq, I support the war in Iraq, we should never take any half-ass steps when it comes to war. We should have ousted Saddam from power back in 1991 but Bush Sr. did not look good in the upcoming elections and he thought that if he brought the troops home before the elections he would win. We should have gone into Bagdad, I to this day to not truly understand why we did not, it seems like the most basic of military and political strategies, if their is someone who has already attacked their neighbor and has threatened to do so again you eliminate them, plain and simple. I think history has proven aver and over again that you can't just ignore such threats as those Saddam has made, and he did engage in Genocide against the Kurds, that should have been enough one its own to give us reason to go into Iraq.

I would like to take this moment to thank Britain for their help in Iraq, however much we try to downplay your involvement (I am guilty of this, as all Americans likely are, of course you guys probably do the same to us about WWI.) you did give us enough support to make the War in Iraq legal, so to say. Afterall, you have arguably the two most powerful nations in the world (some doubt about Britain, Russia could still be Number two, then again China could be getting up on the list, Israel is considered to have the most battle hardened Army in the world right now, that could change soon though, after all, their troops from the wars in the 60s/70s/80s are getting alittle old now), not many country's are gonna do much more than grumble about what we do. Italy also, you were one of the first countries to come out and support the war in Iraq once it was started. France, well, we did find your weapons in Iraq which does prove that Saddam was illegally aquiring weapons, but must your egos be so largely out of proportion to your actual power? North Korea, despite you constant bickering I believe you know that you are not yet powerful enough to anger the US into going to war with you, even with China at your back, you still need some time, perhaps you should feed you people instead of maintaining that million man Army you have, just a suggestion, that is what Vietnam did.

I support a large Army, after all, we don't need to worry about other country's opinions (it is pathetic how we have to treat the rest of the world as equals) if we just go out and grind them into the ground.

What a sad, sad statement to make. It is one thing to be proud of your country. I know I am. But its another thing to be ignorant of the rest of the world. Every time I hear a statement like that I feel embarassed that its an American making that statement.

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrificeIf they were that brave they would have stayed in the US, and gone to prison for their convictions of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and have buried 19 of my friends since then I certainly have the right to call them cowards, my friends died so some rich, spoiled college kid, like your research physicist, could live it up in Canada

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

You beat me to the punch Salishe.

First off, I'd like to say thank you for your service to our country. Men like you are my heros!

Garaj Mahal, if they dodged the draft, they are cowards! Why should they be allowed to live when great men like Salishe's friends have died? Being from Alabama myself, I am ashamed at knowing that we had cowards such as that man living in my state...

Back on topic, the draft really isn't that bad of an idea. While I doubt it would be necessary for Iraq, it would be a good system. For example, Israel has survived because of mandatory service for men. If we had more guys going through the military at one point in their life I'm sure our country would be a lot better.

LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now.


Reading this (and all of the posts on this topic), I felt I should add my own opinion (worthless to many as it is).

The draft is a necessary component of the system of republicanism in the United States. Obviously, very few people WANT to be drafted, but like taxes, it serves a purpose. If there is a war that requires large numbers of soldiers, it is only fair to tap able-bodied citizens to defend their country.

However, to concede a point regarding the opposite direction as well. A good majority of people are not really "soldier material" anyways. Perhaps a system similar to World War 1 or World War 2 would be established. A War Board-esque system where those who are drafted can opt to serve nationally in production capacities, processing, and other needed tasks contracted out to civilians ANYWAYS. That way, they can serve their country, keep their honor, and still serve the war effort.

You may disagree with the war, etc. However, do not leave the country merely because you find it disheartening or wrong. Instead, do your best to serve America, and CHANGE IT FOR THE BETTER. Don’t complain, act. Demonstrate the resolve you say you carry for the cause of idealism. Otherwise, if you aren’t willing to defend your beliefs, then you are indeed cowardly. There is no real other word for it.

I respect those who defend what they believe in, and do not resort to disgusting means to practice what they "preach". If you disagree with the draft, then volunteer part-time doing another service for your country. You enjoy its benefits; you should stand by it in a time of need as well.


There is my two cents. Yes, I am a liberal and such, proud of it really, but I also feel there are limits to what is considered "freedom".

Citizenship is a sacred contract, not a commodity. This goes for any country.

well you could just not sign up to begin with and once your 26 your safe actually at least so far only about 13 people have been busted for refusing to sign up or deal with the draft etc. but it could get pretty bad if used etc.

I see something morally wrong with forcing people to fight thats not free and thats immoral but hey thats just my view.

If they'd take me (i'm in decent shape but wouldn't say I was in worthy or excellent condition for war) I'd fight but only if I felt it nescessary and worthy my effort and possibly my life then I would fight .

Both Kerry and Bush support the draft. Thus, there is no way out. :| :evil: :evil:

Bush will NEVER instate the draft before the elections. It is democrats, in fact, who are proposing it so Bush will look bad.

I voted yes for the draft, but I hope it doesn't have to come to that. I would fight for my country as any citizen should. Sure, I don't agree with everything our country stands for, but it still is the greatest country on the planet.
As for those who would skip out to Canada: you should be ashamed of yourselves. You take advantage of all this country gives you only to stab it in the back!
Be proud to be an American!

I am proud to be anti-american. :twisted: I supported Russia :twisted:

Actully with all these shooting terrorist, squad based video games the draft will give the US a very strong army. The army even has made a video game. That game is frecken' sweet.

I'm proud of america it really is I believe the world's best country but far from perfect. But british columbia is an alright place :lol:

Good pint radical atheist! Thats the case of course I hope bush takes the higher moral ground and doesn't after the elections.. ever!

*shoots the filthy red opelheimmer* your joking right? Communism sucks and so does russia

hmm, the draft... I'll be fleeing to Mexico. I'd much prefer Canada, but Mexico is much closer. Which is the deciding factor since I'll be needing to get the hell outta Dodge fast.

If they do reinstate the draft I'm movin' to Conneticut.

Haha.

I left America about a month ago. They aren't gonna draft me.

All you young guys out there just run to Canada or something.

I'm 26 and I'd do it. I'd run. Screw this war.

we don't need the draft, we still have a shit load of active units that have not been deployed to the mid-east and we still have about 80% of our combat national guard brigades.

the draft wont happen. who ever started this thread is a fucking idiot.

I myself wouldnt be drafted...I can get severe asthma when put under physical conditions...my doctor says that I shouldnt participate in PE class. I had to go to the hospital, because I fainted from an asthma attack, by a 3 mile run. I also have some other respiratory shit ><

Since I am unable to participate in the draft since I am unable I shouldnt say anything...well I guess it could be a good thing, and could be a bad thing, so im neutral. BTW I think it could be good because of someone fighting for what they belive in, and it could be bad because many don't believe what the US believes in maybe

It's really great to see so many people saying that the draft would be great to teach the kids life lessons.

When I need advice on what lessons my kid should be taught I'll guess I'll just move to your United States of America, land of the stunned, home of the brainwashed, wherever that is. For now, I'll be very satisfied to raise my children knowing that their decisions will forever be their own.

I am still not past the idea that someone could come onto a public forum and say 'great, it'll be good for the kids.' If you think that way, tell your kids to go to war and let my kids live their lives how they choose. In fact, don't be shocked if your kids give you the finger. That's their right as Americans.

Draft dodging is done in protest of a regulation that is against many of the principles that America claims to be bringing to the poor, socially underpriviledged nation of Iraq. The fact that it keeps you out of prison does not cheapen the fact that the alternative is to give up your freedom of choice.

If we were driving electric cars, odds are we would never have given two shits about anything going on on the other side of the planet beyond a UN vote or two and some troops when the rest of the world decided it was warranted.


Dr. Rumsfeld, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The FUD.

Draft dodging is done in protest of a regulation that is against many of the principles that America claims to be bringing to the poor, socially underpriviledged nation of Iraq. The fact that it keeps you out of prison does not cheapen the fact that the alternative is to give up your freedom of choice.

Sorry, but no. Civil disobedience morally requires you to take the punishment. Standing up and saying "I believe the draft is morally wrong. I refuse to serve." is the legal and morally correct way of going about a protest. And if the draft dodgers had done so in the 60s, the drafty would have been gone a lot faster. When little Johnny-middle-class class runs away to Canada, no one really cares. When 1000s of them go to Jail, momma and daddy take note.

For God's sake! Why can't I access page 5?

I oppose the draft because it would hurt the efficiency of the US army; men who are shoved into combat generally don't fight as well as ones who go willingly. Besides the strength of the US military is dependant on small numbers of elite troops; in WW2 Poland had one of the largest armies in the world, didn't help them much.

A draft like Israel's would be impossible as we have far to many young men in the country to arm them all and have money left over for anything. I don't see why Bush (or Kerry) would need a draft, we only have enough troops for our commitments now.

For God's sake! Why can't I access page 5?
Because the page count bug seems to be back.

@Collins: suck off your mother you capitalist whoreson. :x lets see you offer free healthcare and education

@Collins: suck off your mother you capitalist whoreson. :x lets see you offer free healthcare and education

Your free health-care system should give you some Ritalin. It would do wonders.


On anothe rnote, reference my post above about opposition to the draft. I think its a balanced, moderated idea.

@Collins: suck off your mother you capitalist whoreson. :x lets see you offer free healthcare and education
Don't flame.

http://www.bigwig.net/~bbw10606/pwned.gif
Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

@Collins: suck off your mother you capitalist whoreson. :x lets see you offer free healthcare and education
Don't flame.

http://www.bigwig.net/~bbw10606/pwned.gif
Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator


**Wouldnt mind being a pawn in the game of life if he was like that particular pawn, heh**

Ah, not having to worry about being drafted, one of the advantages of cystic fibrosis. :P

Enlist... and don't let the government pick for you. Works better, should it come to that.

And btw hello Twi.

people should mass resist and tell the govt to drop dead--dont let halliburton continue to make billions off the blood of american soldiers

I support a large Army, after all, we don't need to worry about other country's opinions (it is pathetic how we have to treat the rest of the world as equals) if we just go out and grind them into the ground.

As a member of the 'rest of the world', I resent that statement. Since when is everyone who doen't live in the USA not a real person who deserves to be respected?

It's true that (at least here in New Zealand) we're not able to stand up to the US militarily. Doesn't mean that you have the right to do whatever you want to us.

Can't say I am ready.

As a member of the 'rest of the world', I resent that statement. Since when is everyone who doen't live in the USA not a real person who deserves to be respected?

It's true that (at least here in New Zealand) we're not able to stand up to the US militarily. Doesn't mean that you have the right to do whatever you want to us.Now wait a sec. Our Marines are deathly scared of your elite sheep brigades.

As a member of the 'rest of the world', I resent that statement. Since when is everyone who doen't live in the USA not a real person who deserves to be respected?

It's true that (at least here in New Zealand) we're not able to stand up to the US militarily. Doesn't mean that you have the right to do whatever you want to us.Now wait a sec. Our Marines are deathly scared of your elite sheep brigades.

What is it with everyone and the sheep? I'm sure we don't have that many. I suppose I haven't been to enough other countries to compare it to.

Go the sheep-brigade!

As a member of the 'rest of the world', I resent that statement. Since when is everyone who doen't live in the USA not a real person who deserves to be respected?

It's true that (at least here in New Zealand) we're not able to stand up to the US militarily. Doesn't mean that you have the right to do whatever you want to us.Now wait a sec. Our Marines are deathly scared of your elite sheep brigades.

What is it with everyone and the sheep? I'm sure we don't have that many. I suppose I haven't been to enough other countries to compare it to.

Go the sheep-brigade!

If you ever played Warcraft 2, you would realize they are *quite* deadly, heh.

Interestingly enough I haven't seen anyone ask the professional military their opinion on the draft. Obviously it isn't unanimous, but most that I've heard give it a resounding "HELL NAW"

The prevailing opinion being "We don't want you here. If you don't want to be here. You're no good to us if you're here involuntarily."


While I think that there could be some benefits to compulsory service, I'd rather trust my life to someone who wants to be there.

Berserker, Im not military, but I keep an ear to the ground on thgese kinds of things. You have it exactly.

Interestingly enough I haven't seen anyone ask the professional military their opinion on the draft. Obviously it isn't unanimous, but most that I've heard give it a resounding "HELL NAW"

The prevailing opinion being "We don't want you here. If you don't want to be here. You're no good to us if you're here involuntarily."


While I think that there could be some benefits to compulsory service, I'd rather trust my life to someone who wants to be there.

Thats why I suggested a civilian corps, similar ot what occured in the World Wars. They could do the stuff the military needs done back home, and free up people to serve overseas. Processing, production, contracts, etc. Nationalized industry, as before if needed.

In case you guys wanted a link, http://www.howstuffworks.com/us-draft.htm how the draft actually works.

It's really great to see so many people saying that the draft would be great to teach the kids life lessons.

When I need advice on what lessons my kid should be taught I'll guess I'll just move to your United States of America, land of the stunned, home of the brainwashed, wherever that is. For now, I'll be very satisfied to raise my children knowing that their decisions will forever be their own.

I am still not past the idea that someone could come onto a public forum and say 'great, it'll be good for the kids.' If you think that way, tell your kids to go to war and let my kids live their lives how they choose. In fact, don't be shocked if your kids give you the finger. That's their right as Americans.

Draft dodging is done in protest of a regulation that is against many of the principles that America claims to be bringing to the poor, socially underpriviledged nation of Iraq. The fact that it keeps you out of prison does not cheapen the fact that the alternative is to give up your freedom of choice.

If we were driving electric cars, odds are we would never have given two shits about anything going on on the other side of the planet beyond a UN vote or two and some troops when the rest of the world decided it was warranted.


Dr. Rumsfeld, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The FUD.

Actually...my son's (2) didn't give me the finger....they gave me a big hug and said..."Dad..we enlisted"..both active duty in the Marines...both initially served in Iraq...and one is going back to Iraq soon....military service is good for a youth..I see a whole lot of kids nowadays who would benefit from service....

Geesh...I've said it before...at present there are at least 3-4 non-Combat related occupational specialties for every combat related one..there is also for those who are just plain not convince they would have duty in Iraq, the Navy..and Air Force both branches which do not have the tasks for ground combat...

If we would just stop sending our great soldiers to kill all these iraq people, we wouldn't need the draft anyway. America's government is sad, the people need something to believe in...where are the next Beatles?

If we would just stop sending our great soldiers to kill all these iraq people, we wouldn't need the draft anyway. America's government is sad, the people need something to believe in...where are the next Beatles?

We do not need a draft even to do that. Pay attention to those who have actually been posting the facts, please.

to answer someones question, yes i am US american,

and i oppose the draft, as i am 22 and would be drafted.


BUMP.

Actually...my son's (2) didn't give me the finger....they gave me a big hug and said..."Dad..we enlisted"..both active duty in the Marines...both initially served in Iraq...and one is going back to Iraq soon....military service is good for a youth..I see a whole lot of kids nowadays who would benefit from service....

Your sons voluntarily enlisted, though.

to answer someones question, yes i am US american,

and i oppose the draft, as i am 22 and would be drafted.


BUMP.

I don't know if anyone pointed this out earlier or not....

You are stating that the Bush administration is pushing for the draft.
Bush knows we don't need a draft. Charlie Rangell (D-NY) started this ball rolling. He feels that the number of minorities killed in combat is dispropotionate to the number of minorities in the general population. Statistics disprove his theory, but he continues to push on. Voting Bush out won't help you here, it may make matters worse, depending on where Kerry stands today on that issue.

THE DRAFT IS NOT COMMING ANYTIME SOON!!
AND IF IT DOES DONT BE LITTLE BITCHES AND RUN TO CANADA
FIGHT FOR YOUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VIVO BUSH!!!!!

You are stating that the Bush administration is pushing for the draft.
Bush knows we don't need a draft. Charlie Rangell (D-NY) started this ball rolling. He feels that the number of minorities killed in combat is dispropotionate to the number of minorities in the general population. Statistics disprove his theory, but he continues to push on. Voting Bush out won't help you here, it may make matters worse, depending on where Kerry stands today on that issue.

As I said above (in essence), the current "legislation" for the draft is either a hobgoblin of the left or grandstanding by pols.

Actually...my son's (2) didn't give me the finger....they gave me a big hug and said..."Dad..we enlisted"..both active duty in the Marines...both initially served in Iraq...and one is going back to Iraq soon....military service is good for a youth..I see a whole lot of kids nowadays who would benefit from service....

Your sons voluntarily enlisted, though.

Yes..but both had to sign up for selective service registration anyway, both did it with the surety that this in some small way payment for being a citizen and had no problems with it..hence if they were drafted they would not shirk from their duty as citizens.

You are stating that the Bush administration is pushing for the draft.
Bush knows we don't need a draft. Charlie Rangell (D-NY) started this ball rolling. He feels that the number of minorities killed in combat is dispropotionate to the number of minorities in the general population. Statistics disprove his theory, but he continues to push on. Voting Bush out won't help you here, it may make matters worse, depending on where Kerry stands today on that issue.

As I said above (in essence), the current "legislation" for the draft is either a hobgoblin of the left or grandstanding by pols.

I found it.... back on page 3. Apparently some people aren't listening, though. :x

as a patriotic American i cannot support the draft; the very idea is diametrically opposed to the ideals of my nation, and i could never in good conscience submit to such treason.

WELL guess what if your 18 - 25 your going to IRAQ.

as soon as june 2005!!!!!!!!!


inless you get bush out of office, or you stop these bills that will reinstate the draft, from being passed.

this is what our goverment is really working on.

dont run to canada, they will catch you there to, and you will be penalized.


so save me, and yourselves from our evil goverment. :evil:

1) Kerry supports the draft, to an even greater extent than Bush does.
2) The draft was originally proposed by two DEMOCRATS. The strongest opponent of the draft in Congress is Texas Republican Ron Paul.
3) The Department of Defense strongly opposes a draft.

As threatening as it is, the chance that a draft will be reinstated is very small:
- Most democrats see it as warmongering, and oppose it.
- Most republicans see it as big-government meddling and social engineering, and oppose it.
- Of three of the major four "third party" movements: Libertarian, Socialist and Green, are opposed, and the fourth, Conservative, is mostly opposed.
That doesn't leave a whole lot of political base.

Even if it does pass in Congress, there is still teh Supreme Court. The Thirteenth Amendment is very clear: "NEITHER SLAVERY NOR INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE SHALL EXIST ANYWHERE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OR IN ANY TERRITORIES SUBJECT TO THEIR JURISDICTION, EXCEPT AS A PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME WHEREOF THE GUILTY PARTY SHALL HAVE BEEN DULY CONVICTED."

A soldier is a servant to the government. The draft is involuntary.

The draft was UPHELD by the Supreme Court in 1917. If it comes up again, I'm willing to bet that Arver decision will be reversed. Plessy was reversed after just 60 years.

Actually...my son's (2) didn't give me the finger....they gave me a big hug and said..."Dad..we enlisted"..both active duty in the Marines...both initially served in Iraq...and one is going back to Iraq soon....military service is good for a youth..I see a whole lot of kids nowadays who would benefit from service....

Your sons voluntarily enlisted, though.

Yes..but both had to sign up for selective service registration anyway, both did it with the surety that this in some small way payment for being a citizen and had no problems with it..hence if they were drafted they would not shirk from their duty as citizens.

Why is it your duty as citizens to be slaves to the government?

I'm all for the military, but the draft is slavery. And it will HURT, not help the military, but creating an image of bottomelss reserves, causing reckless foreign policy, and harms long-term morale.

Kerry, by the way, SUPPORTS the draft. Only he wants it to be "Mandatory National Service," With the military as an OPTION. This totally kills the "national security" rationale and takes even more of the mask off the system to show what it really is: chattel slavery.

as a patriotic American i cannot support the draft; the very idea is diametrically opposed to the ideals of my nation, and i could never in good conscience submit to such treason.

Ask not what your country can do for you..but what can you do for you country....it was just as true in Kennedy's day as it is now..Time was when every able-bodied male was part of a militia..I see no reason why we should not try to reinstill that sense of "noblesse oblige"

as a patriotic American i cannot support the draft; the very idea is diametrically opposed to the ideals of my nation, and i could never in good conscience submit to such treason.

Ask not what your country can do for you..but what can you do for you country....it was just as true in Kennedy's day as it is now..Time was when every able-bodied male was part of a militia..I see no reason why we should not try to reinstill that sense of "noblesse oblige"

voluntary military service is fine and dandy, but there is absolutely nothing noble about conscription. if a person signs on because they want to make that commitment and feel their patriotism leads in that direction then i applaud them, but that is not a decision the government should be making for any citizen. many of us know that the military is not where our gifts will be best received, and we can serve our people far better in other roles.

besides, many women are better for the military than a lot of "able bodied males," and many non-able-bodied individuals can serve more admirably than their able-bodied counterparts. so i hardly think ownership of a penis and all four limbs is a good criterion for your "nobles oblige."

as a patriotic American i cannot support the draft; the very idea is diametrically opposed to the ideals of my nation, and i could never in good conscience submit to such treason.

Ask not what your country can do for you..but what can you do for you country....it was just as true in Kennedy's day as it is now..Time was when every able-bodied male was part of a militia..I see no reason why we should not try to reinstill that sense of "noblesse oblige"

The point of the militia was to OVERTHROW THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, if it became that oppressive. Historically, the purpose of the militia was to counterweight the army.

With secret police organizations like teh BATF, and Federal control of the militia, having a universal militia today would NOT serve any purpose. Moreover, historically, like in Vietnam, it was ENLISTED SOLDIERS, not DRAFTEES, who first showed resistance to oppression and injustice. An all-volunteer militia and army has a much better chance of resistance to tyranny than a bunch of apathetic conscripts.

Your time when everyone in a militia, also, never existed. America NEVER conscripted troops until 1863. Militia membership's highs were because of a sense of post-revolutionary fervor that people had.

as a patriotic American i cannot support the draft; the very idea is diametrically opposed to the ideals of my nation, and i could never in good conscience submit to such treason.

Ask not what your country can do for you..but what can you do for you country....it was just as true in Kennedy's day as it is now..Time was when every able-bodied male was part of a militia..I see no reason why we should not try to reinstill that sense of "noblesse oblige"

voluntary military service is fine and dandy, but there is absolutely nothing noble about conscription. if a person signs on because they want to make that commitment and feel their patriotism leads in that direction then i applaud them, but that is not a decision the government should be making for any citizen. many of us know that the military is not where our gifts will be best received, and we can serve our people far better in other roles.

besides, many women are better for the military than a lot of "able bodied males," and many non-able-bodied individuals can serve more admirably than their able-bodied counterparts. so i hardly think ownership of a penis and all four limbs is a good criterion for your "nobles oblige."

The term was merely one originally used Bottle..please don't think I meant to insult you or other women in that you couldn't wear the uniforms just as well.

Ah, not having to worry about being drafted, one of the advantages of cystic fibrosis. :P

You would be drafted into a civilian job that is "equally demanding." After all, we aren't supporting conscription, we are for "mandatory national service."

as a patriotic American i cannot support the draft; the very idea is diametrically opposed to the ideals of my nation, and i could never in good conscience submit to such treason.

Ask not what your country can do for you..but what can you do for you country....it was just as true in Kennedy's day as it is now..Time was when every able-bodied male was part of a militia..I see no reason why we should not try to reinstill that sense of "noblesse oblige"

voluntary military service is fine and dandy, but there is absolutely nothing noble about conscription. if a person signs on because they want to make that commitment and feel their patriotism leads in that direction then i applaud them, but that is not a decision the government should be making for any citizen. many of us know that the military is not where our gifts will be best received, and we can serve our people far better in other roles.

besides, many women are better for the military than a lot of "able bodied males," and many non-able-bodied individuals can serve more admirably than their able-bodied counterparts. so i hardly think ownership of a penis and all four limbs is a good criterion for your "nobles oblige."

The term was merely one originally used Bottle..please don't think I meant to insult you or other women in that you couldn't wear the uniforms just as well.

oh, i know, it's just a common problem i hear about, and my male friends get pretty pissed..."Why are WE the only ones who have to be used as cannon fodder?! If they wanted to end the War in Iraq they should have just shipped my ex-girlfriend over there, and that whole place woulda been a crater in minutes!"

The strongest opponent of the draft in Congress is Texas Republican Ron Paul.

YEAH! :D
I am originally from the neighboring congressional district and wish he was representing the 22nd district as well. I have met Ron Paul, and actually like him. A lot. And that is really saying something, as I have met many pols, and hated most on sight. I liked him more when he ran on the libertarian ticket, but repect his decision to return to the GOP.

The strongest opponent of the draft in Congress is Texas Republican Ron Paul.

YEAH! :D
I am originally from the neighboring congressional district and wish he was representing the 22nd district as well. I have met Ron Paul, and actually like him. A lot. And that is really saying something, as I have met many pols, and hated most on sight. I liked him more when he ran on the libertarian ticket, but repect his decision to return to the GOP.

I met Ron Paul at a Junior Statemen thingy at Georgetown U. I liked him a lot actually. I think the only two issues we disagree on are abortion and immigration. Abortion was NEVER a big issue for me, I'm pro-choice, but I don't really care that much either way, and immigration his position is reasonable, so it's a good compromise.

Representative Paul was actually born in my hometown of Pittsburgh, PA.

The draft is a necessary component of the system of republicanism in the United States. Obviously, very few people WANT to be drafted, but like taxes, it serves a purpose. If there is a war that requires large numbers of soldiers, it is only fair to tap able-bodied citizens to defend their country.

Absolutely not! In a country based on the freedom of the individual and the freedom of that individual to pursue their own unique destiny, the idea of conscription in any form is barbaric and damn well un-American. It is never "fair" to force young men and women to do things against their will and conscience simply for some presumptive greater public good that nine times out of ten could have been avoided in the first place had the people in charge (who are never at risk) had behaved a damn sight better than they did.


However, to concede a point regarding the opposite direction as well. A good majority of people are not really "soldier material" anyways. Perhaps a system similar to World War 1 or World War 2 would be established. A War Board-esque system where those who are drafted can opt to serve nationally in production capacities, processing, and other needed tasks contracted out to civilians ANYWAYS. That way, they can serve their country, keep their honor, and still serve the war effort.

It's still conscription and it should be as offensive to any American as a law denying their freedom to worship the religion of their choice.


You may disagree with the war, etc.


Oh, I most certainly do, for both religious and rational reasons.


However, do not leave the country merely because you find it disheartening or wrong. Instead, do your best to serve America, and CHANGE IT FOR THE BETTER. Don’t complain, act. Demonstrate the resolve you say you carry for the cause of idealism. Otherwise, if you aren’t willing to defend your beliefs, then you are indeed cowardly. There is no real other word for it.

I do that as well, even though I'm above draft age, simply because I can't stomach the idea of the best and brightest of our young people being sent off to die in any war against their will. Period. This war in particular is heinous because it serves no other purpose than settling a grudge match between The Bushes and Hussein.


I respect those who defend what they believe in, and do not resort to disgusting means to practice what they "preach". If you disagree with the draft, then volunteer part-time doing another service for your country. You enjoy its benefits; you should stand by it in a time of need as well.

I work very hard to make sure conscription is never seen in this country again. I write letters, raise awareness, council youth considering not registering with Selective Service and attend rallies and protests. I do stand up for what I believe. This is one of the many causes I'm involved in because I do firmly believe that, at least metaphorically, the road to heaven is paved with good works not words. However, one of those good works is speaking out whenever you have an opportunity. I respect the choice of those who volunteer for the military, even if I do not agree with it, and am greatful for their sacrifice and jealously guard their honor and safety, which lawmakers and politicos are all too hasty to squander. It is quite one thing, though, for a person to willingly volunteer and something else entirely for a person to be conscripted. One celebrates the very essence of true American Values. The other is a spiteful mockery of justice that spits upon both the Constitution, the ideals of America and the graves of all those who have laid down their lives to serve it.

First of all, ANYONE WHO THINKS THE DRAFT WILL HELP OUR WAR EFFORT IS SADLY MISTAKEN.

The Department of Defense has come out AGAIN AND AGAIN saying that they are OPPOSED to the draft, that the draft would raise costs needed to train elite forces, cause morale and logistical problems, and is antithetical to Modern Warfare, which involves small armies operating strategically and with high-technology.

The only real rationale for a draft--which explains why democrats were the original supporters--is that it will increase "social equality"--by reducing all young people to the status of slaves.

Most importantly, the draft is ILLEGAL. Read the Thirteenth Amendment. Or the Fifth. The draft has never been upheld in the Supreme Court since World War I in Arver v. United States. If it comes to it, I have confidence that the High Court will reject the draft as what it is -- slavery.

In any nation, you can't simply pick and choose which laws to obey.

I agree. Tell the government that. They should have to follow the Fifth and Thirteenth Amendments, which prohibit drafting or "mandatory national service" or any other bullshit like that.

Salishe, Think about it. Consription will bring in people whether they want to be there or not. Those who would rather not be at war will make the American army weaker due to their lack of commitment. They may end up causing the death of many American soldiers because of this. They wont be committed to training (assuming there will be any) so that shall also weaken the army as a whole.

As other's have said, let those who feel they want to fight for America do so. Other people arn't cut out for military service and they are far greater assets doing civilian jobs, making a stronger economy and thus allowing the government to put more money into the military if you will.

Salishe, Think about it. Consription will bring in people whether they want to be there or not. Those who would rather not be at war will make the American army weaker due to their lack of commitment. They may end up causing the death of many American soldiers because of this. They wont be committed to training (assuming there will be any) so that shall also weaken the army as a whole.

As other's have said, let those who feel they want to fight for America do so. Other people arn't cut out for military service and they are far greater assets doing civilian jobs, making a stronger economy and thus allowing the government to put more money into the military if you will.

No one is saying make the military a career...but I know a good many kids in my neighborhood who could use a little discipline, a little goal-orientation, purpose, focus, some maturity. Hell..at the very least you get college money out of it....a chance to see the world..make friends that will last a lifetime..not many 18-19 yr olds are making greater assets in civilian jobs unless you consider part-sales personnel at a store at the mall or fry-maker at a McDonald's to be great assets....Just one 4 yr tour of duty...you'd be 22 when you got out..older, wiser, more mature. And you'd have a greater understanding of service to your country, and with money in your account if you spent it wisely during your tour.

A Private E-1 makes something along the lines of at least $600.00 every two weeks, and that is pretty much spend or save money..he/she lives in the barracks, rent free, nowadays the branches have basic cable installed, the Air Force had phone jacks in the enlisted barracks's rooms. They can eat free at the dining facilities on base, of which I readily recommend Navy food...as it is without a doubt the best.

Everyone keeps making the mistake of associating the draft with a need for combat troops..for every 1 combat-related MOS there are at least 3-4 support MOS necessary

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

how the hell is it that just because I was born in some nation that I am automatically supposed to kill for my country or support wars fought in the name of the President or whomever? that or leave? It wasn't my choice to decide where to be born. Nationalism is stupid.

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

Number one..I was taxed just like everyone.came out of my military paycheck just like any civilian...and as for college money...the Army gives up to 50,000 for college..you know that many 18-22 yr old kids who have produced that much in taxes?

And never said that a person isn't an individual..just that the experience is well worth it....not just in terms of outward service to your country, but to the growth of the person as a person.

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

Number one..I was taxed just like everyone.came out of my military paycheck just like any civilian...and as for college money...the Army gives up to 50,000 for college..you know that many 18-22 yr old kids who have produced that much in taxes?

And never said that a person isn't an individual..just that the experience is well worth it....not just in terms of outward service to your country, but to the growth of the person as a person.

1) By working in the military, you are denied two years' work in a civilian job. The average American makes $40,000 a year. Times two. $80,000. The government is already $30,000 in the hole. Plus, almost everyone pays MUCH more than $50,000 in their whole lifetime... Saying that college aid is a good deal is like saying if I buy a $20,000 car when I'm 20 and pay $5,000 a year for the rest of my life is a good deal.

2) If the experience really is worth it, then people would volunteer, you wouldn't have to draft them.

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

Number one..I was taxed just like everyone.came out of my military paycheck just like any civilian...and as for college money...the Army gives up to 50,000 for college..you know that many 18-22 yr old kids who have produced that much in taxes?

And never said that a person isn't an individual..just that the experience is well worth it....not just in terms of outward service to your country, but to the growth of the person as a person.

1) By working in the military, you are denied two years' work in a civilian job. The average American makes $40,000 a year. Times two. $80,000. The government is already $30,000 in the hole. Plus, almost everyone pays MUCH more than $50,000 in their whole lifetime... Saying that college aid is a good deal is like saying if I buy a $20,000 car when I'm 20 and pay $5,000 a year for the rest of my life is a good deal.

2) If the experience really is worth it, then people would volunteer, you wouldn't have to draft them.

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

Number one..I was taxed just like everyone.came out of my military paycheck just like any civilian...and as for college money...the Army gives up to 50,000 for college..you know that many 18-22 yr old kids who have produced that much in taxes?

And never said that a person isn't an individual..just that the experience is well worth it....not just in terms of outward service to your country, but to the growth of the person as a person.

First off, I voted Hell No! The draft is not an institution which we as Americans should use unless ABSOLUTLEY neciserry. Vietnam was not neciserry. A draft for Iraq is NOT absolutley neciserry. What the draft does is take people who ussually don't want to fight, give them very little training, a gun, and send them off to kill the enemey. These are guys that really don't know what the hell they're doing, they have very little morale, and they're getting picked off by bastards in trees who are more than proud to die fighting the "zionest western forces". If you ask me, the draft does nothing for us but fill body bags.

Do I think people who dodge the draft are cowards? Depends on the situation. If we as Americans are threatened, our nation and it's government threatened, and you dodge the draft than yes you are a coward. On the other hand, if this were to happen then we wouldn't have to worry about the draft because any sensible American would line up for service. But if it's something like what's going on in Iraq or Vietnam, then no they're not cowards. Vietnam was pointless, and our goal in Iraq is complete: Get rid of Saddam. Why fight for something you don't believe in? Would you kill a man if you did not think there was a just cause Salishe? Would your kids? Doubtful. Or is a command from Big Brother cause enough to kill a father, a son, a brother, or a husband? If that's the case, I truly do pity your loss.

On second thought, a draft is very likely not going to happen. The media and liberals alike our blowing things way out of proportion with the war in Iraq. Yes, soldiers are dying. Oh, but we've lost less than 1,000 troops in a timespan of 13 months. We have somewhere near 150,000 men over in that country. Do the math people.

In the end though, I will not have to worry about it, because I will be in the NAVY soon enough anyway.

First off, I voted Hell No! The draft is not an institution which we as Americans should use unless ABSOLUTLEY neciserry. Vietnam was not neciserry. A draft for Iraq is NOT absolutley neciserry. What the draft does is take people who ussually don't want to fight, give them very little training, a gun, and send them off to kill the enemey. These are guys that really don't know what the hell they're doing, they have very little morale, and they're getting picked off by bastards in trees who are more than proud to die fighting the "zionest western forces". If you ask me, the draft does nothing for us but fill body bags.

Do I think people who dodge the draft are cowards? Depends on the situation. If we as Americans are threatened, our nation and it's government threatened, and you dodge the draft than yes you are a coward. On the other hand, if this were to happen then we wouldn't have to worry about the draft because any sensible American would line up for service. But if it's something like what's going on in Iraq or Vietnam, then no they're not cowards. Vietnam was pointless, and our goal in Iraq is complete: Get rid of Saddam. Why fight for something you don't believe in? Would you kill a man if you did not think there was a just cause Salishe? Would your kids? Doubtful. Or is a command from Big Brother cause enough to kill a father, a son, a brother, or a husband? If that's the case, I truly do pity your loss.

On second thought, a draft is very likely not going to happen. The media and liberals alike our blowing things way out of proportion with the war in Iraq. Yes, soldiers are dying. Oh, but we've lost less than 1,000 troops in a timespan of 13 months. We have somewhere near 150,000 men over in that country. Do the math people.

In the end though, I will not have to worry about it, because I will be in the NAVY soon enough anyway.

Err... Congress may want a draft, but generally the US military doesn't.

What do you get in a conscript, especially nowadays? A whiny, spoiled brat as too many of my peers are who believe in rights by accident of birth without attendant responsibilities by that same accident. In short, someone unwilling to fight and generally less adept at it to boot.

That is why we have an all-volunteer force. People have the choice to do it or not. If they choose to be there, then they tend to be better motivated, more willing, and more adept because they put effort into it.

The draft technically never went away, it was only deactivated. That's why I have a Selective Service card somewhere in a government file. The government could, at any time for any reason, pass some bill to reactivate it. The military will resist that to the fullest because it doesn't want to deal with that kind of manpower issue--it wants and needs people who are willing and some extent wanting to fight, not someone who's forced to and thus (especially in our culture) rebelling against authority.

'Sides, the next general war in which we need a draft will probably be the last one anyway and last a good half hour. So don't worry about it.

I think they should draft the countries richest people first.

they are the ones who really have something to gain by defending or expanding capitalism so they would make sure to put their heart into it.

the poor people and especially the poor minorities, who are the ones who most often get drafted, don't look at their country as something worth defending when they are stepped on so often so they make will weaken our defense/offense.

Err... Congress may want a draft, but generally the US military doesn't.

What do you get in a conscript, especially nowadays? A whiny, spoiled brat as too many of my peers are who believe in rights by accident of birth without attendant responsibilities by that same accident. In short, someone unwilling to fight and generally less adept at it to boot.

That is why we have an all-volunteer force. People have the choice to do it or not. If they choose to be there, then they tend to be better motivated, more willing, and more adept because they put effort into it.

The draft technically never went away, it was only deactivated. That's why I have a Selective Service card somewhere in a government file. The government could, at any time for any reason, pass some bill to reactivate it. The military will resist that to the fullest because it doesn't want to deal with that kind of manpower issue--it wants and needs people who are willing and some extent wanting to fight, not someone who's forced to and thus (especially in our culture) rebelling against authority.

'Sides, the next general war in which we need a draft will probably be the last one anyway and last a good half hour. So don't worry about it.

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

Number one..I was taxed just like everyone.came out of my military paycheck just like any civilian...and as for college money...the Army gives up to 50,000 for college..you know that many 18-22 yr old kids who have produced that much in taxes?

And never said that a person isn't an individual..just that the experience is well worth it....not just in terms of outward service to your country, but to the growth of the person as a person.

1) By working in the military, you are denied two years' work in a civilian job. The average American makes $40,000 a year. Times two. $80,000. The government is already $30,000 in the hole. Plus, almost everyone pays MUCH more than $50,000 in their whole lifetime... Saying that college aid is a good deal is like saying if I buy a $20,000 car when I'm 20 and pay $5,000 a year for the rest of my life is a good deal.

2) If the experience really is worth it, then people would volunteer, you wouldn't have to draft them.First off, TGM--the average wage earner in the US makes closer to $26,000 a year than $40,000, and that number is even lower in the 18-22 age range. And if you factor in the amount of debt in both credit cards and student loans that the average college student leaves with, that $50,000 looms ever larger. Now, in all fairness, few kids who go into the military actually qualify for the full $50,000. But your argument is specious.

2) If the experience really is worth it, then people would volunteer, you wouldn't have to draft them.First off, TGM--the average wage earner in the US makes closer to $26,000 a year than $40,000, and that number is even lower in the 18-22 age range. And if you factor in the amount of debt in both credit cards and student loans that the average college student leaves with, that $50,000 looms ever larger. Now, in all fairness, few kids who go into the military actually qualify for the full $50,000. But your argument is specious.[/quote]

CIA world factbook puts the US GDP Per Capita at $36,300. Closer to $40k than $26k.

Also, if you spend 2 years in the military when you're 18-22, that means that you go to work in the civilian job market two years later. So normally, if you'd finish college at 21 and work for 44 years until you retire at 65, now you finish college at 21 and work for only 42 years until you retire. The money you lose is acutally the money from your two BEST PAYING years. The average person in early 60s makes more than the average American wage. So in reality you're probably losing upwards of $100,000.

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

A lot of the Viet Nam-era draft resisters made *excellent* and productive Canadian citizens. The best city councillor in my city (Vancouver) is a draft resister from Alabama, and a prominent research physicist at our univerity is a draft resister from New York state.

Remember that these men made the brave sacrificeIf they were that brave they would have stayed in the US, and gone to prison for their convictions of giving up their country and contact with their families *for a principal*. They believed the Viet Nam war was wrong (which it indisputably was) and they put their beliefs into action by leaving America. To simply say they were cowards is ignorant and to spread mis-information.I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and have buried 19 of my friends since then I certainly have the right to call them cowards, my friends died so some rich, spoiled college kid, like your research physicist, could live it up in Canada

(BTW my father served in the military - and spent 3 years in a Nazi POW camp. I have great admiration for BOTH soldiers and draft resisters alike - anyone who makes sacrifices for intelligent beliefs.)

You beat me to the punch Salishe.

First off, I'd like to say thank you for your service to our country. Men like you are my heros!

Garaj Mahal, if they dodged the draft, they are cowards! Why should they be allowed to live when great men like Salishe's friends have died? Being from Alabama myself, I am ashamed at knowing that we had cowards such as that man living in my state...

Back on topic, the draft really isn't that bad of an idea. While I doubt it would be necessary for Iraq, it would be a good system. For example, Israel has survived because of mandatory service for men. If we had more guys going through the military at one point in their life I'm sure our country would be a lot better.

LGD, if your willing to leave your country based on what leader is currently occupying the oval office, you should leave right now.I'd rather volunteer for a war I supported than be forced into a war I didn't. That's my $0.02 for today. Thank <deity> I won't be 18 anytime near next year.

I have no fear of the draft. I am joining the military anyways

I think its everybodys duty to serve in the armed forces.

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.

Number one..I was taxed just like everyone.came out of my military paycheck just like any civilian...and as for college money...the Army gives up to 50,000 for college..you know that many 18-22 yr old kids who have produced that much in taxes?

And never said that a person isn't an individual..just that the experience is well worth it....not just in terms of outward service to your country, but to the growth of the person as a person.

1) By working in the military, you are denied two years' work in a civilian job. The average American makes $40,000 a year. Times two. $80,000. The government is already $30,000 in the hole. Plus, almost everyone pays MUCH more than $50,000 in their whole lifetime... Saying that college aid is a good deal is like saying if I buy a $20,000 car when I'm 20 and pay $5,000 a year for the rest of my life is a good deal.

2) If the experience really is worth it, then people would volunteer, you wouldn't have to draft them.First off, TGM--the average wage earner in the US makes closer to $26,000 a year than $40,000, and that number is even lower in the 18-22 age range. And if you factor in the amount of debt in both credit cards and student loans that the average college student leaves with, that $50,000 looms ever larger. Now, in all fairness, few kids who go into the military actually qualify for the full $50,000. But your argument is specious.

Both of you are playing with numbers. You can make numbers tell anything.

In any nation, you can't simply pick and choose which laws to obey.

I agree. Tell the government that. They should have to follow the Fifth and Thirteenth Amendments, which prohibit drafting or "mandatory national service" or any other bullshit like that.
Not exactly. I don't see your point about the fifth amendment, but the thirteenth amendment prohibits "involuntary servitude", or slavery. In a nutshell, slavery is working without being paid. If we follow your interpretation of the constitution, any person who can only find one job, and a crudy one, will complain to the government about the "involuntary servitude" he's faced.
However, Article 1, Sec. 8 gives Congress the power to raise armies, and specifically points out that an army can't be raised by Congress for more than two years. This means that at the end of a two year period, conscripts have to be let go, unless they choose to reenlist. However, this is not involuntary servitude, as they are being paid, and will eventually be let go. Your interpretation is dangerous, and quite frankly, contradictary to Article 1. Surely, you agree with me that the original articles of the Constitution, as they define the government, no?

In any nation, you can't simply pick and choose which laws to obey.

I agree. Tell the government that. They should have to follow the Fifth and Thirteenth Amendments, which prohibit drafting or "mandatory national service" or any other bullshit like that.
Not exactly. I don't see your point about the fifth amendment, but the thirteenth amendment prohibits "involuntary servitude", or slavery. In a nutshell, slavery is working without being paid. If we follow your interpretation of the constitution, any person who can only find one job, and a crudy one, will complain to the government about the "involuntary servitude" he's faced.
However, Article 1, Sec. 8 gives Congress the power to raise armies, and specifically points out that an army can't be raised by Congress for more than two years. This means that at the end of a two year period, conscripts have to be let go, unless they choose to reenlist. However, this is not involuntary servitude, as they are being paid, and will eventually be let go. Your interpretation is dangerous, and quite frankly, contradictary to Article 1. Surely, you agree with me that the original articles of the Constitution, as they define the government, no?

I would not like it, because I think it's fairly counterproductive...but that's besides the point. If there is a draft, passed by the SENATE and HOUSE, and not by means of the President himself...and I am selected, I will of course accept it...fight and die for your country, and do your duty if necessary...rather than living here, reaping all its benefits, and dodging away from serving it.

dp

First off, I would like to re-iterate the fact that our Army/Navy/USAF/USMC reserves and National Guard is perfectly capable of taking care of bussiness in Iraq and Afganistain with out there being a draft. Also there are many active duty units that have not been deployed to Iraq yet. 2 Brigades of the 25th ID and 2 brigades of the 2 ID have not been deployed, along with the 3rd ACR, 172 Inf. Bde, and 173 Inf Bde. Among National Guard Divisions that have not been deployed, there are the 40th Infantry Div Mech, 34th Infantry Div, 35th Infantry Div, 28th Infantry Div, 36th Infantry Divl, 29th Infantry Div, 38th Infantry Div, 49th Armored Div, 42nd Infantry Div, 7th Infantry Div, and the 24th Infantry Div. This does not include the dozens of seperate combat brigades in the National Guard that have not even been alerted for duty in Iraq.

Most importantly, the draft is ILLEGAL. Read the Thirteenth Amendment. Or the Fifth. The draft has never been upheld in the Supreme Court since World War I in Arver v. United States. If it comes to it, I have confidence that the High Court will reject the draft as what it is -- slavery.
you may want to actually read the 13th and 5th Amendments before you say they make the draft illegal.
5th Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

13th Amendment
"1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

Where is the draft specifically stated in these amendment? If it is under an interpritation of the amendments, why did the Supreme Court descide against Arver in Arver v US?

You say the draft has never been upheld by the Supreme Court since the Arver v US case, and you are right. Only because a legal challenge of the draft has never made it up to the Supreme Court since WW1.

And another thing, if we even needed the draft (which we wont), don't you think that the same Justices who sided with Bush in 2000 will side with a draft to send troops to Iraq? The draft would be upheld by the Supreme Court with the justices we have on the bench now.

servitude is compulsory service or labor. The military draft fits that description perfectly

In any nation, you can't simply pick and choose which laws to obey.

I agree. Tell the government that. They should have to follow the Fifth and Thirteenth Amendments, which prohibit drafting or "mandatory national service" or any other bullshit like that.
Not exactly. I don't see your point about the fifth amendment, but the thirteenth amendment prohibits "involuntary servitude", or slavery. In a nutshell, slavery is working without being paid. If we follow your interpretation of the constitution, any person who can only find one job, and a crudy one, will complain to the government about the "involuntary servitude" he's faced.
However, Article 1, Sec. 8 gives Congress the power to raise armies, and specifically points out that an army can't be raised by Congress for more than two years. This means that at the end of a two year period, conscripts have to be let go, unless they choose to reenlist. However, this is not involuntary servitude, as they are being paid, and will eventually be let go. Your interpretation is dangerous, and quite frankly, contradictary to Article 1. Surely, you agree with me that the original articles of the Constitution, as they define the government, no?

servitude is compulsory service or labor. The military draft fits that description perfectly
then ehy has the supreme court upheald the draft?

About the whole people running to Canada thing...

Yeah, biggest most worthless cowards on the face of the earth.

Know what real draft objectors did? Know what real pacifists did?

They refused to join the army and did their jail time for their convictions.

Or...

They joined the Red Cross, and helped to nurse injured soldiers instead of killing. I have more respect for these brave people than I even have for those who actually fought. The red cross has been a target for our enemies in most of our past conflicts. The mortality rate for red cross soldiers was double, triple, and even quadruple the rate for regular soldiers. These people were willing to die to help others, in the name of their desire to help instead of harm.

servitude is compulsory service or labor. The military draft fits that description perfectly
then ehy has the supreme court upheald the draft?the Supreme Court has upheld many bad laws--theyre not always right

They joined the Red Cross, and helped to nurse injured soldiers instead of killing. I have more respect for these brave people than I even have for those who actually fought. The red cross has been a target for our enemies in most of our past conflicts. The mortality rate for red cross soldiers was double, triple, and even quadruple the rate for regular soldiers. These people were willing to die to help others, in the name of their desire to help instead of harm.
I get what you're saying, but helping them is almost equivalent to doing it yourself (well, it is still a long ways off- but it is equivalent to say- giving them money to build bombs, etc...)
I don't believe in initiating force to solve a conflict (as we have done in Iraq- and don't tell me we didn't initiate it- if that was true, we wouldn't have called it a "preemptive strike") But I do believe in defending yourself (as we did in WWII) Therefore, I would probably want to help out the soldiers if it was a defensive war, while I would not feel justified nursing someone who was hurt doing something I consider to be evil.
What I'd like most is for the government to fund research in neuroengineering for me. Maybe that way when soldiers came back missing limbs, we'd be able to help them out. I could definitely stand doing that for "punishment" that if I was drafted. I mean, I know I'd still be helping people that did bad things, but at least by the time they got to me, they'd be out of the war- and it would help so many people that are good folks too.

you are joking

I voted yes for the draft, but I hope it doesn't have to come to that. I would fight for my country as any citizen should. Sure, I don't agree with everything our country stands for, but it still is the greatest country on the planet.
As for those who would skip out to Canada: you should be ashamed of yourselves. You take advantage of all this country gives you only to stab it in the back!
Be proud to be an American!
heh...wouldn't skip out to canada...
I'm going to Costa Rica!!
kind of a joke, but something my boyfriend and I have been discussing.
It's prettier there (than in Canada)...worth learning a new language

P.S. No offense to canadians! It's too cold there :( I've been a couple places up there, and truthfully, the most beautiful place I've ever been was at the beaches of Vancouver Island. But I was wearing jeans and a sweatshirt and boots in the middle of summer!! Many places in the US are too cold for me too. I like being in the south :) (where I can't ride in my convertible with the top down because it's too hot...I got sunburned today :?)
heh... too many smileys in the post script!!

First off, I would like to re-iterate the fact that our Army/Navy/USAF/USMC reserves and National Guard is perfectly capable of taking care of bussiness in Iraq and Afganistain with out there being a draft. Also there are many active duty units that have not been deployed to Iraq yet. 2 Brigades of the 25th ID and 2 brigades of the 2 ID have not been deployed, along with the 3rd ACR, 172 Inf. Bde, and 173 Inf Bde. Among National Guard Divisions that have not been deployed, there are the 40th Infantry Div Mech, 34th Infantry Div, 35th Infantry Div, 28th Infantry Div, 36th Infantry Divl, 29th Infantry Div, 38th Infantry Div, 49th Armored Div, 42nd Infantry Div, 7th Infantry Div, and the 24th Infantry Div. This does not include the dozens of seperate combat brigades in the National Guard that have not even been alerted for duty in Iraq.


No draft needed, on that we can agree. There is a need for about 20-30 divisions as opposed to the current 10 active - but that has been discussed elsewhere (and can be reiterated in another thread if need be.)

Hi!

I confess, in reality I am a Canadian (And happily so). Still, I thought someone ought to mention how things are done in Europe. At least in Germany, everyone has their mandatory year of service once they finish high school. This can be served either in the military or in the community as sort of a 'volunteer' placement (It's called Zivildienst in German).

I am all for peace and demilitarisation. The Zivildienst thing, however, seems good to me. It's guaranteed work, and useful experience for someone entering the workforce. It also helps the community, and instills concepts of serving others into the workers (I must admit, we really, really need that in North America).

I personally think that implementing such a system is a good idea. Before one gets a high school diploma, one should do a year of community service. I think that there is a lot of education that cannot be taught in a classroom.

That's my Two Cents Worth (I guess that's about 1.5 Cents in American currency). Just a thought.

Breathe Deep, Seek Peace, God Bless!
Principal Kie Turtlecrest.

Of course, you realize that the Bush Administration is anti-draft... If you don't want to get drafted, vote for bush...

I voted yes. Think you want about the war i believe its long over due and if my country calls me to war then as a proud american citizen i must. As much as i dont really like the idea. :?

servitude is compulsory service or labor. The military draft fits that description perfectly
then ehy has the supreme court upheald the draft?the Supreme Court has upheld many bad laws--theyre not always right
then get your self a lawyer and take the gov't to court re: the draft. I bet I know who is going to win.

servitude is compulsory service or labor. The military draft fits that description perfectly
then ehy has the supreme court upheald the draft?the Supreme Court has upheld many bad laws--theyre not always right
then get your self a lawyer and take the gov't to court re: the draft. I bet I know who is going to win.

When, specifically, did the Supreme Court uphold the constitutionality of the draft? I'm just wondering if you can cite case law precedent or a specific ruling.

http://www.agh-attorneys.com/4_selective_draft_law_cases_arver_v_us.htm

WELL guess what if your 18 - 25 your going to IRAQ.

as soon as june 2005!!!!!!!!!That's bullshit and you know it. Why would we start a draft if we are PULLING OUR TROOPS OUT AS WE SPEAK?


inless you get bush out of office, or you stop these bills that will reinstate the draft, from being passed.Ah, your true motive comes out :roll:

this is what our goverment is really working on.Yeah. Sure. Links, anyone? From a government site, I mean?

dont run to canada, they will catch you there to, and you will be penalized.Don't be so sure. Clinton had no trouble dodging the draft :D


so save me, and yourselves from our evil goverment. :evil:Vote Kerry: Replace not good with downright bad :twisted:

I think the idea of a draft is a good one. The primary benefit would be in governmental policy. That was the reason the draft was abandoned in the first place, in fact. With a professional army like we have now, the public has a much weaker voice in how the military is used. With a citizen's army, like we had until the end of Vietnam, our voice in the direction of policy is much stronger. The government has to go much further in showing that there is good reason to go to war (or in lying and propagandizing) if they are going to force you - or your son or daughter - to go and fight.

The fact that the government is now considering giving up that higher level of freedom in policy making shows how poorly things really are going in Iraq.

WELL guess what if your 18 - 25 your going to IRAQ.

as soon as june 2005!!!!!!!!!That's bullshit and you know it. Why would we start a draft if we are PULLING OUR TROOPS OUT AS WE SPEAK?


inless you get bush out of office, or you stop these bills that will reinstate the draft, from being passed.Ah, your true motive comes out :roll:

this is what our goverment is really working on.Yeah. Sure. Links, anyone? From a government site, I mean?

dont run to canada, they will catch you there to, and you will be penalized.Don't be so sure. Clinton had no trouble dodging the draft :D


so save me, and yourselves from our evil goverment. :evil:Vote Kerry: Replace not good with downright bad :twisted:replace evil with compitence you mean

The draft won't affect me at all.

The draft is based on the idea that the state is more important than the individual, a key element of fascism. Any country with a draft is partly fascist in the same way that any country with some racial segregation is partly racist.

-----------------------------------------
"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

A person is an INDIVIDUAL, entitled to his own life. He isn't an "asset" of the state, as you put it.

Well then he should no longer get any benefits from the government, we should abolish minimum wage laws, get rid of employee benefits, do away social security and welfare and all that other stuff, disband the Army so we could be easily invaded by other countries, hell, why don't we just do away with all the benefits from the government.

As for college money, that money has to come from SOMEWHERE. Being in the army doesn't actually PRODUCE anything. In the end, you are only getting part of YOUR own tax dollars back.


Oh boy, I see we have a problem here, when you are in the Armed Forces you do not pay an income tax. And the college is not quite free, you have an option when you sign up for the Army's college tuition plan, that is, they will take out $200 from your first 6 months worth of paychecks for a total of $1200, if you decide to go to college you get that back plus money for the rest of your college tuition, if you don't go to college, well that is your own fault, you have the opportunity and the money is just sitting there, you are the only one responsible if you don't at least make an effort to graduate.

I am going to join the Army after I graduate, I will pay the $1200 and I will go to college and get a degree in History, might as well, since according to the ill informed creator of this topic I will be going to Iraq in June 2005, even though the current time table only calls for us to be in Iraq for another 9 months, stick around to make sure the elections go through and that their is a peaceful change of power, then we let the Iraqi's manager their own country and we leave, probably just hopping across the border into Kuwait just in case Iraq blows up again, they we go back in, but we probably wont be needed. Either way, I will still join, some of us aren't scared of doing our part for the country, not that that means everyone can be in the military, some of us are needed to drive the cabs, fix our cars, fly people across the world, etc. Serving in the military isn't the only way to serve one's coutnry, it is just the most direct.

this is what our goverment is really working on.Yeah. Sure. Links, anyone? From a government site, I mean?

sigh...do they really need to be from a government site?
I mean, I can find them all on gov. sites...but they're all right together here:
http://russoforpresident.com/draft_1.php
they're all on the side, I just started with 1
if you really want though, I'll go through each government notice and find the site.

I will move to Italiai i am drafted. It's the only other place than America that i have family in.

I would just serve my time in the military, what are the odds you are going to die? Slim to none.

125,000 troops sent to Iraq, about 800 died, that is .0064% chance of dying, and we are all going to die some day, I would rather die doing something for my country than of a heart attack or after being hit my a truck.

Private Stewart reporting for duty sir! *salutes*

On a more serious note, I wouldn't care if they instituted the draft. We have serious manpower shortages and it would work wonders for securing Iraq while still maintaining our military bases.

Having the draft in the U.S. will do WONDERS for the Canadian economy!! Can't wait to see all the draft resisters coming here and bringing their U.S. dollars with them. It'll be like the good ol' days of Viet Nam again.

(Despite that I voted HELL NO by the way...I feel the draft is a bad idea)

If there are that many you're welcome to them...and when they become a burden on your healthcare system and use up your resources to get by and bring their American customs, and needs you can get them for them. Meanwhile..kids like my sons will do their part as citizens of this nation.

Become a burden? My dear boy, I am the Canadian healthcare system ... been in Toronto since '68, and a happy productive life working in this city's best hospital.

Jerk Tory politicians up here tried to say that about us last time. A few more ex-Yanks 'd be the best defense against creeping Americanisation, eh? :lol:

Yes, I am ready for the draft. Bring it on.

I was ready to fight for my country, you weasel, I just did not want to fight my cousins and brothers for it, and I certainly was not going to fight to maintain some vestpocket Hitler like Ky in power. My ancestors already lost one civil war. Did you really want another? A damned division of us came up here, by the way, not an insignificant fraction. Let's see you brave boys try to invade Canada, instead of some thirdworld nation, we'll see who kicks whose arse home.

Why should i take punishment for refusing to commit a crime, bright boy?


Only a tiny amount of the draft resisters ran to Canada. They are cowards. They would run from Canada if (now this is a huge if) it found itself in a war and needed soldiers.

A coward runs. Standing for your principles means also taking the punishment that can result from your actions.

I don't know if there will be a draft, but if there is, I can almost guarantee that there will be ways for the rich and powerful to avoid it, or at least ensure themselves the least dangerous positions. I propose a deal. I will go along with a draft after every draft-age, healthy son, daughter, grandson, granddaughter, and other close relative of every Representative, Senator, and President who supports the draft, voluntarily goes to the most dangerous area of Iraq to which a draftee might be sent.

Otherwise, no deal. If you won't send your own precious children to fight, then you shouldn't send anyone else's.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette May 24, 2004

Rumor aside, draft's return most unlikely

In-Depth Coverage
By Jack Kelly

The Selective Service System quietly has been filling vacancies on local draft boards, as U.S. troops are pulled from Korea to help out in Iraq and members of Congress question whether the armed services are overextended.

This collection of circumstances has prompted a flurry of speculation, fueled by e-mail-forwarding and nurtured by left-wing Web sites, that the U.S. government is poised to reinstate the military draft, or that President Bush has secret plans to do so if re-elected in November.

But the Pentagon opposes a general manpower draft, and even those few members of Congress who support one think the chances of a draft being reinstituted are next-to-none. Yet the rumors fly.

"Pending legislation in the House and Senate would time the program so the draft could begin as early as spring 2005 -- conveniently just after the 2004 presidential election!" Adam Stutz recently wrote on the Vancouver Indymedia Web site.

The Armed Forces are not now having difficulty recruiting and retaining enough volunteers to maintain current strength, either in active or reserve components. But many fear that if the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan drag on, this will be harder to do.

Recruiting historically has been more difficult when the economy is growing rapidly, as it is now. And many in Congress believe it is necessary to increase the size of the Army by the equivalent of two divisions, along with their supporting elements.

The upsurge in violence in Iraq has forced the Army to postpone plans to scale down the number of U.S. troops in Iraq, currently about 135,000.

Major elements of all 10 of the Army's active duty divisions are in Iraq or Afghanistan, have just returned, or are slated to deploy there.

This has sent the Army scrambling for troops.

Despite nuclear saber rattling by the North Koreans, one of the two mechanized infantry brigades stationed in South Korea is due to deploy to Iraq this summer. The Army is also considering a plan to close the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif., so that the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, which acts as the opposition force in exercises there, could be freed up for deployment.

"[Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter] Schoomaker doesn't want to go there [to a draft], but he's afraid he might have to," said John Pike of GlobalSecurity.Org, a think tank in Washington. "They're really moving the heavy furniture around to find more combat troops."

But there is no need for a draft now, Pike said, adding that "it's easier to see the problems [a draft] creates than the problems it solves."

Despite the potential need for more soldiers, both experts who support and those who oppose the reinstatement of military conscription say there is little likelihood that any American ever again will be drafted -- except maybe for specialized positions, such as health care professionals, linguists and computer programmers.

"You're talking about an undertaking that nobody has the stomach for," said Andrew Krepinovich, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who is director of the Center for Strategic and Budget Alternatives in Washington.

Professor Charles Moskos of Northwestern University, considered America's pre-eminent military sociologist, has been arguing for a draft for years, but thinks the odds it will be reinstated are "very low."

"Conservatives don't like [the draft] because they say it's a restriction on their freedom. Liberals don't like it because they don't want to serve in the military," Moskos said.

While many in the military support conscription on the grounds of social equity or national service, nearly all professional soldiers think that bringing back the draft now would reduce the quality of the military, while driving up its cost.

"The draft would be the Army's worst nightmare," said retired Lt. Col. Leonard Wong, now a research professor at the U.S. Army War College at Carlisle Barracks. "We have a high quality Army because we have people who want to be in it. Our volunteer force is really a professional force. You can't draft people into a profession."

A fundamental problem with a draft today, experts say, is that the historic two-year period of conscription isn't enough time to get a return on the investment in training that modern soldiers require. "There's just too much equipment [draftees] could break," Pike said.

A related problem: the cost of feeding, clothing, training and paying a large influx of unskilled personnel would gobble up funds the military needs for other purposes.

"We're a personnel-based institution," Wong said. "If we have a lot more people walking in the door, it would suck up all of our resources."

And even if the draft were reinstated tomorrow, it would take at least two years before it could produce additional soldiers for Iraq and Afghanistan, the experts say.

"It will take 193 days from the time that we get started until the first person is presented to the Department of Defense," said Alyce Burton, a spokeswoman for the Selective Service. It would then take a year and a half to two years to train the draftees and form them into new combat units, Krepinovich said.

If more combat troops were needed within the next year or so, the National Guard could supply them.

There are 38 combat brigades (a brigade is roughly a third of a division) in the Army National Guard. Of these, three have been called to active service. Four more are mobilizing. That leaves 31 that still could be called upon. In addition, most of the 4th Marine Division has not been called to active service.

The Army is experiencing serious shortfalls of certain kinds of troops -- military policemen, linguists, interrogators, civil affairs specialists and medics, for instance -- so it is combing the Individual Ready Reserve to find veterans who have these skills. As many as 6,500 could be recalled to active duty.

The IRR consists of veterans who have completed their enlistment contract but who still have time remaining on the 8-year obligation they incurred when they joined up.

At the request of the Defense Department, the Selective Service has been developing standby plans for drafting doctors, nurses and medical technicians, should the need arise, Burton said. And on its own, the Selective Service has been studying how a draft for other types of specialists -- in particular linguists and computer programers -- might work, she said.

But Burton added: "We've been told that a draft of untrained manpower would not be necessary in the future."

When he was a congressman from Illinois, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld introduced one of the first bills in Congress to abolish the draft. His attitude about the draft hasn't softened since.

So why is the Selective Service (which is no longer part of the Defense Department) filling vacancies on local draft boards? The reason is simple, Burton said. There are a lot of vacancies.

"The longest anyone can serve on a local draft board is 20 years," she said. "Most of the members were appointed in 1980 [when President Jimmy Carter reinstated registration for the draft], or shortly thereafter. They have to be replaced."

Whether it would be to fill general manpower needs or to acquire specific skills, Congress would have to vote to reimpose the draft before the draft machinery could be set in motion, something Congress historically has been loath to do.

The draft was first imposed in 1863, at the height of the Civil War, and sparked riots in New York City and elsewhere. The draft was reimposed for World War I, and ended soon after Armistice Day. The first peacetime draft was voted in 1940, by only a single vote, and then only because France had just fallen to the Nazis.

Ended after World War II, the draft was reinstated in 1948, at the start of the Cold War, and became increasingly controversial during the Vietnam War. With the consent of Congress, President Richard Nixon ended the draft in 1973.

The requirement to register for the draft, suspended in 1975, was reinstated in 1980, after the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Currently, all male citizens (and some resident aliens) are supposed to register with the Selective Service within 30 days of their 18th birthday.

Even most of those who favor conscription acknowledge the All Volunteer Force has been a success. The education levels of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines are the highest in history and disciplinary problems are few compared to those of the draft-era military. The performance of U.S. armed forces in the Iraq war, as they toppled the regime of Saddam Hussein in a month, awed leaders of foreign militaries.

Moskos, who served two years in the Army after graduating from Princeton in 1956, favors a draft because he thinks it's the only way to get the children of elites to serve.

"Of 535 congressmen and senators, only seven have children in the military," Moskos said. "In my graduating class at Princeton, more than 400 out of 750 males served. In last year's graduating class of more than 1,100, only seven served."

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., author of one of the two bills pending in Congress to reinstate the draft, also favors conscription primarily for sociological reasons. Rangel credits his involuntary service in the Army during the Korean War with "straightening him out" as a young man, and thinks inner-city youth headed down the wrong path could also benefit from the experience.

A persistent myth about the All Volunteer Force is that it is made up largely of the poor and the uneducated. In fact, Wong said, the volunteer Army is more middle class than its predecessor.

"We don't have the fringes any more -- the extremely rich or the extremely poor," Wong said. "We look like Middle America."

A fundamental problem for his argument to reinstate the draft on the basis of social equity, Moskos noted, is that the services of only a small proportion of those who turn 18 each year would be required, even if the military were expanded substantially.

About 2 million males will turn 18 this year. The 2004 recruiting goals for all the Armed Forces is just 187,437. Even if that number were tripled, and there were no volunteers at all, draft calls would go to less than 30 percent of available males, and less than 15 percent of available personnel if women were drafted, too. Volunteers can be older than 18, as well.

"In the 1950s [when the Armed Forces were much larger and the youth population much smaller] you had to be lucky not to be drafted. When even Elvis was called, we felt like we were all in this together," Pike said.

"Today, you'd have to awfully unlucky to be drafted. How could anyone think that's fair?"


(Jack Kelly can be reached at jkelly@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1476.)

Double Post

I would just serve my time in the military, what are the odds you are going to die? Slim to none.

125,000 troops sent to Iraq, about 800 died, that is .0064% chance of dying, and we are all going to die some day, I would rather die doing something for my country than of a heart attack or after being hit my a truck.

Check your math, son. That's .64%, nearly 1 out of 100 dead. The chances for debilitating injury (amputation, etc.) are much higher.

It is .64%, West Pacific must have just been looking at the number you get from dividing the two (.0064). That, however, is not "nearly" one out of 100 dead, its much closer to one out of every two hundred.

I won't have to worry about the draft, I'm enlisting in the Army next year (DEP)! And for those of you who just want to sit in the comfort of your bubble and do nothing to earn the freedom of which you claim-

"No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country"
(T. Roosevelt )

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares
about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." (John Stewart Mill)


"They that have the power to hurt, and will do none,
That do not do the thing, they mostly show
Who moving others, are themselves as stone,
Unmoved, cold, and to temptation slow;
They rightly do inherit heaven's graces,
And husband riches from expense,
They are lords and owners of their faces,
Others but stewards of their excellence:
The summer's flower is to the summer sweet,
Thought to itself, it only lives and die,
But if that flower were based with infectious meet,
The basest weed, out-braves his dignity;
For sweetest things turns sourest by their deeds,
Lilies that fester, smell far worse than weeds"

(William Shakespeare)




Was that enough? I have plenty more quotes, I know they won't make you think. But hey, with or without you we will succeed, The only thing lost is time and profit. Go ahead, remain ignorant. The brave will continue to spill their blood that you might complain about why you won't repay your debt. You punks make me sick. Cowards. Oh, and a shout to those who ahve already posted here in support of our Laws!