NationStates Jolt Archive

From what I understand, most western counties are in debt to some extent - some more so than others.

Apparently the U.S. National Debt is skyrocketing lately - the Bush tax cuts combined with the enormous costs of Homeland Security, Afghanistan & Iraq have increased the debt far beyond what it was under Clinton. Is this so?

Do average Americans even care or think about their National Debt? Is it an election issue?

Canada has taken steps to reduce its debt. It's no longer the hot issue of public debate that it was a few years ago, but it's still on the radar here.

Interestingly, our last Conservative federal gov't was the one that pushed our debt into the critical zone during the 80s - increasing deficit spending like crazy due to completely reckless tax cuts. We then elected successive Liberal governments that stopped deficit spending and even began paying-down our national debt.

Because Canada is a smaller country, the effect of massive debt was a more critical threat to us. We literally were approaching bankruptcy and had to reverse things. Thankfully we have, and by some measures have the most healthy economy in the world right now.

I'd be interested to know how other countries deal with the issue of debt.

We just ignore it.

Debt is a normal part of modern life. Everyone's in debt to somebody. Debt is made out to be a really bad thing, but it's not. The ability to pay back the debt, and make use of the gains of the debt, is far more important an issue. In reality, anyway. Of course, for campaigning, debt is a great concept to throw around, just like 'evil'.

hell no (im american, and the thought of anyone coming after the cash we owe them is ridiculous)

My country's current concerns, in order of importance:

1. Identity of that one guy in that one movie
2. Lyrics to The Macarena
3. Fat content of frozen yogurt
4. That nasty stain on the carpet
5. pig.com
6. Entire state of New Jersey
7. Dangers of dihydrogen monoxide
8. The ZIP code for Schenectady, New York
9. Eradication of rap-metal
10. National debt

"We'll get to it eventually..."

So is there any way the U.S. Nat'l Debt ever *could* get so huge that it could negatively impact the country and affect the lives of ordinary people?

Or is the U.S. completely and forever immune to the effects of debt - and can their debt grow infinitely with no problems?

Just curious.

US citizen expat in Japan.

Both countries have their head in the sand about their debts. Japan especially so. (And in the case of Japan, the entire nation has its head in the sand about the astounding corporate debt as well as the government debt. I fully expect at least one mojor bank to go bust here in the next 12 months.)

So is there any way the U.S. Nat'l Debt ever *could* get so huge that it could negatively impact the country and affect the lives of ordinary people?

Or is the U.S. completely and forever immune to the effects of debt - and can their debt grow infinitely with no problems?

Just curious.

Certainly the US debt could get that big. It was sort of headed off a while back. But it is growing hugely under Bush....

Apparently the U.S. National Debt is skyrocketing lately - the Bush tax cuts combined with the enormous costs of Homeland Security, Afghanistan & Iraq have increased the debt far beyond what it was under Clinton. Is this so?

Yes. Over his eight year term, Clinton actually erased our national Debt and left a surplus to the incoming Bush administration of around $120 billion. within the first year of the Bush empire, this was gone and now, four years later, we are once again saddled with an enormous National Debt.

Just think what the man could do with four more years. :cry:


Do average Americans even care or think about their National Debt? Is it an election issue?

It's far too abstract and quirky an issue for "average Americans" to think about any more than "average Britans" or "Average French" think about their national debt load. People understand in theory that debt is not a good thing, but like another poster said, so many people carry at least some debt load that it's almost more suspicious when there isn't one.


Canada has taken steps to reduce its debt. It's no longer the hot issue of public debate that it was a few years ago, but it's still on the radar here.

It's on the radar in the US as well, but not in a meaningful way. Again, I have a hard time believing the average American or the average Canadian really cares all that specifically about the very intangible National Debt. They understand it in a general way and can possibly speak about it someone learnedly, but it's not something that directly affects their actions or the way they vote.


Interestingly, our last Conservative federal gov't was the one that pushed our debt into the critical zone during the 80s - increasing deficit spending like crazy due to completely reckless tax cuts. We then elected successive Liberal governments that stopped deficit spending and even began paying-down our national debt.

Like what happened with Clinton in the 90s and recovery from the 12 years of Republican "Trickle Down" Economics.


Because Canada is a smaller country, the effect of massive debt was a more critical threat to us. We literally were approaching bankruptcy and had to reverse things. Thankfully we have, and by some measures have the most healthy economy in the world right now.

This is a very good point. The US economy is current so big (even though it is having difficulty), that it can support it's debt load. How much longer this will be the case is open for debate, but suffice to say that it's never a good idea to have a high one, just on general principles.

We just ignore it.
Some may choose to ignore the possibilities, while others consider the probabilities:

The financial system: unbalanced, unfair, unsustainable

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-3-77-1463.jsp#

On a global level, there is $100 trillion of debt outstanding, but only $33 trillion of income with which to repay those debts. Even the drastic recent stock market falls have barely dented the credit superstructure. When this credit bubble bursts in the United States and Britain, it will be middle-class consumers that will first bear the brunt of the financial crash.

**********************************************************

A financial crisis under debt-deflationary conditions will be catastrophic for many debtors. It will also be grossly unjust and unfair, because while central bankers and finance ministers have clamped down on prices and wages – they have used the credit bubble (borrowing) to inflate asset values (stocks, bonds, and property) to extraordinary heights.

US Debt when Bush was elected:

09/29/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86

Current US Debt:

05/24/2004 $7,193,240,510,846.79

Total Bush Debt Increase:

$1,519,062,300,959.93

or

$5,063.54 INCREASE in 3.5 years, for every man, woman, and child in the US.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Japans debt is 150% of their GDP.

Over his eight year term, Clinton actually erased our national Debt and left a surplus to the incoming Bush administration of around $120 billion. within the first year of the Bush empire, this was gone and now, four years later, we are once again saddled with an enormous National Debt.
I hate to burst your bubble Berkylvania but Clinton did not erase the National Debt. He did manage to have a year where there was a small annual surplus. Every Bush budget since then have been big deficits.

Deficit and Debt are two entirely different animals.

Perhaps a little more perspective would help?

http://www.house.gov/genetaylor/floor07-16-03.htm

THE GROWING FEDERAL DEFICIT

House of Representatives - July 16, 2003

The Congressional Record, Pages H7000-H7001

Mr. TAYLOR of Mississippi.(speaking)

Two years ago, May 9, we passed the President's spending plan. The President's tax cuts passed with almost every Republican vote, passed with a couple of Democratic votes. I voted against it. I did not think it would work. It turns out this time I was right. In just over 2 years under that budget passed by you guys, you have increased the national debt by $1 trillion.

Let us put that in reference. If you went all the way from the Revolutionary War to 1979, the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam, built the interstate highway system, built the Golden Gate Bridge, the intercoastal waterway, we borrowed less than $1 trillion. In 25 months, you guys have borrowed $1 trillion.

The Speaker in the chair knows what a $1,000 check looks like. It is what a lot of us write for rent checks up here in Washington. If you wrote that $1,000 rent check a thousand times, you have spent a million. If you wrote a $1 million check a thousand times, you have spent a billion. If you wrote a $1 billion check a thousand times, you have spent a trillion. That is how much money a trillion is.

In just the past 12 months, you have increased the national debt by $544 billion. More importantly, you have stolen $371 billion from the Social Security trust fund. Mr. Speaker, the reason I say stolen is if you take it back and you do not have a plan to repay it, it is stealing. If someone pays on their payroll taxes toward Social Security, they fully expect it to be put in a trust fund just for Social Security and that it is going to be sitting there for when they need it.

YIKES!!!

National debt is as important as the colour of the public drinking water.

Wait...

What do you mean the debt doesn't affect the country!?!?!?!? The INTEREST on the debt is our third largest government expenditure. That being said, I think individual debt is a bigger problem that government debt. In America, the average per capita debt is something crazy like $20,000.

It makes me very sad that American citizens see no importance in the trillions of dollars in debt we are. I heard somewhere that if the national debt was decreased/partially paid off, inflation would occur on a slower degree. That doesn't make sense to me, but if it's true, let's go for it!

Should I just paint 'not american' on my forehead for you people?

its very important to me and people's heads are in the sand yes. Its not the tax cuts entirely if at all actually cutting taxes I support its the spending. Washington spends way to much! 2.4 trillion dollar for fiscal year 2005 is a huge budget. At the minimum 400 billion for defense (current budget) is fine so whats the other 2 trillion for? Great cutting of spending needs be done and we need to get out of this mess here in the USA

Japans debt is 150% of their GDP.

Actual public debt could be as much as 250% of GDP, making Japan the most indebted nation in the industrialized world. To reach that number, analysts throw in the debt of Zaito, an off-balance-sheet government lender.

http://www.businessweek.com/1998/20/b3578003.htm

Zaito (aka the Fiscal Investment & Loan Program) is a huge black hole of pork.

Corporate liabilities are also very high. Corporate debt levels run something like four times their equity levels.

Unfortunately, Japan has yet to really begin addressing these problems in any way. Most people are aware of the problems, but no one is able to do anything. I have lived here 13 years, 12 since the bubble collapsed, and have yet to see any meaningful changes made in government operations. Corporate operations have changed some, but not nearly enough.

Well, my NS nation.....not sure, don't really care either. But in the US? Oh yeah. Big...no....HUGE national debt.

oh our nations? can we really tell? well lets just say if we do its small and being payed down and prefereably we don't in fact a surplus is likely 8)

I do such a great job :D