NationStates Jolt Archive

Oh no - of course it wasn't a wedding..... we wouldn't make a mistake like that...

I guess banning cameras in the Army ain't enough. to really ensure that nothing bad comes out I think they should just put a country-wide moratorium on them. Because much to the Genereal's suprise (I'm sure), an Iraqi was video-taping the wedding... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20040524/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack_13)

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.



Of course, we can't question the photographer to ascertain the authenticity of the tape.... because he died in the raid. Fortunately though enough of the other guests seen on the tape can be found and interviewed. Most of them are to be found in local hospitals.....

-Z-

wow.
if bush gets reelected after all this, i'll lose all hope for my neighbours to the south.

Now..I know what some of you will think...I'm the "apologist" on this post too..on the contrary...I think the pilot screwed up..relied on faulty intel and was given a mission that should have been investigated with recon on the ground...Now..since I do not believe the pilot is guilty of pre-meditated murder, he should be charged with manslaughter in the first degree and punished accordingly. Accordingly, everyone up his chain of command who authorized the mission should receive charges as well. This is a monumental FUBAR...now in this instance the Army is clearly covering their collective asses..granted..the area is known as a drug smuggler's route and infiltration point for foreign fighters.but that is irrevelent..more recon on the ground should have been conducted.

Did I suprise anyone?...

DP

Well, that's what happens when you shoot guns in the air during a wedding in Iraq. Stupid habit to me.

If bush gets re-elected after this, then i now that shit does happen and that blair will also get re-elected.

Blair won't get reelected, even his own people are preparing for life after Blair.
Dunno about Bush tho, my friends told about a book which says that Al Gore should have won but the election was fixed, can't remember what its called, but if they fixed it once.....

Elven, here you go.....


http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

Perhaps that will answer some questions about the 2000 election?

Well, that's what happens when you shoot guns in the air during a wedding in Iraq. Stupid habit to me.

To be strictly accurate, it's what happens when you shoot guns in the air during a wedding in Iraq now. They have been doing it for a long time now all over the Middle East -- hence the Afghan wedding (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/07/01/bombs.htm) that was bombed by the USA in 2002. Which will change first: the Middle East's "happy fire" custom, or the USA's "Help! Help! Where's my Goddam air support" custom? Only time will tell.

Well, that's what happens when you shoot guns in the air during a wedding in Iraq. Stupid habit to me.

the attacks began long after the celebration winded down though.
the planes weren't flying overhead as the people were firing weapons.

Elven, here you go.....


http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

Perhaps that will answer some questions about the 2000 election?

Great link and all true, I watched it go down live on CNN at the time.. Some democracy huh.. :|

Now..I know what some of you will think...I'm the "apologist" on this post too..on the contrary...I think the pilot screwed up..relied on faulty intel and was given a mission that should have been investigated with recon on the ground...Now..since I do not believe the pilot is guilty of pre-meditated murder, he should be charged with manslaughter in the first degree and punished accordingly. Accordingly, everyone up his chain of command who authorized the mission should receive charges as well. This is a monumental FUBAR...now in this instance the Army is clearly covering their collective asses..granted..the area is known as a drug smuggler's route and infiltration point for foreign fighters.but that is irrevelent..more recon on the ground should have been conducted.

Did I suprise anyone?...

So if the army is trying to cover thier own asses on this one, why does the other issue, wich to me seems like the attempt to scapegoat a group, much the same situation.

Elven, here you go.....


http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

Perhaps that will answer some questions about the 2000 election?

Great link and all true, I watched it go down live on CNN at the time.. Some democracy huh.. :|

what an eye-opener! you americans really screwed that election up, huh?

Now..I know what some of you will think...I'm the "apologist" on this post too..on the contrary...I think the pilot screwed up..relied on faulty intel and was given a mission that should have been investigated with recon on the ground...Now..since I do not believe the pilot is guilty of pre-meditated murder, he should be charged with manslaughter in the first degree and punished accordingly. Accordingly, everyone up his chain of command who authorized the mission should receive charges as well. This is a monumental FUBAR...now in this instance the Army is clearly covering their collective asses..granted..the area is known as a drug smuggler's route and infiltration point for foreign fighters.but that is irrevelent..more recon on the ground should have been conducted.

Did I suprise anyone?...

I really don't think it's the pilot's fault. When he is told to go eliminate some resistance in an area, he can't tell what's going on down there.

We've even had cases were Marines were killed by A-10s. Occasionaly, bad intelligence will get the wrong people killed...

And in some cases, bad intelligence will get a whole country invaded.

Now..I know what some of you will think...I'm the "apologist" on this post too..on the contrary...I think the pilot screwed up..relied on faulty intel and was given a mission that should have been investigated with recon on the ground...Now..since I do not believe the pilot is guilty of pre-meditated murder, he should be charged with manslaughter in the first degree and punished accordingly. Accordingly, everyone up his chain of command who authorized the mission should receive charges as well. This is a monumental FUBAR...now in this instance the Army is clearly covering their collective asses..granted..the area is known as a drug smuggler's route and infiltration point for foreign fighters.but that is irrevelent..more recon on the ground should have been conducted.

Did I suprise anyone?...

Actually, I have no beef with the soldiers who hit a target as directed.

My beef is with the automatic "cover-up" machine that goes into high gear when mistakes DO get made. I imagine "further investigation" will eventually discover that it WAS a wedding, and the families will be compensated.

But when they say that the troops went in and didn't see what AP clearly videotaped in the rubble, it just stinks.

It's like they are so afraid of bad press that they try and present a perfect image. Which is just not believable which then makes EVERYTHING they say suspect. A dumb way to run your PR if you ask me.


-Z-

About the firing guns into the air thing, It's not really that unusual. The west does it too, Anyone heard of a twenty one gun salute?

Now..I know what some of you will think...I'm the "apologist" on this post too..on the contrary...I think the pilot screwed up..relied on faulty intel and was given a mission that should have been investigated with recon on the ground...Now..since I do not believe the pilot is guilty of pre-meditated murder, he should be charged with manslaughter in the first degree and punished accordingly. Accordingly, everyone up his chain of command who authorized the mission should receive charges as well. This is a monumental FUBAR...now in this instance the Army is clearly covering their collective asses..granted..the area is known as a drug smuggler's route and infiltration point for foreign fighters.but that is irrevelent..more recon on the ground should have been conducted.

Did I suprise anyone?...

I really don't think it's the pilot's fault. When he is told to go eliminate some resistance in an area, he can't tell what's going on down there.

We've even had cases were Marines were killed by A-10s. Occasionaly, bad intelligence will get the wrong people killed...
The first Iraqi war was a bit of a turning point for me politically. I was essentially my fathers son and listened to Rush Limbuagh (on behalf of Sacramento, where his show was right before it went national, I'm sorry. I was there when it happened, ugh). One of the creepiest things I saw was footage after the war from a helicopter that accidentally fired on an American truck...when they went to use the guns to finish off the drivers the guns jammed. Seconds later they where able to get the correct position from the GPS to find out that they had fired on a friendly. The second the missles where away, the pilot said "I really hope those aren't our guys..."

That's f'n horrifying. I can't imagine being in that position. I do lay something on the people to think about what they are doing, but more on the people who are supposed to keep things in line so that the troops aren't put in those situations, and own up when they fall short. So it's not so much the guys in the helicopter as the guys who sent the helicopter.

Well, that's what happens when you shoot guns in the air during a wedding in Iraq. Stupid habit to me.
That is an Islamic custom, much like westerners like to honk horns, and ring church bells.

BTW, I understand that this is the 4th wedding that US planes have attacked. Previously there were 3 others in Afghanistan. The web site is not very professional looking, so I am looking for more reliable sources:

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Covert_Actions/US_Bombs_Another_Afghan_Wedding:_120_Killed

Westerners also have a celebration that is much louder than firing rifles into the air. It is called a 21 gun salute.

*Edit to change number of weddings attacked and location.

Elven, here you go.....


http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

Perhaps that will answer some questions about the 2000 election?
You know that after seeing videos like this one and the one on Saddam Hussein that it becomes more and more difficult to keep an open mind. I am certainly becoming more cynical with each passing day, and each new intrigue.

The sad part is both the videos that I saw are very plausible and if they are true, what does it say about democracy in the US and for that matter all western civilization?

The advent of technology just might be more of a detriment than a benefit to the "freedoms" that we THINK we enjoy today.

Scary stuff indeed.

Well, that's what happens when you shoot guns in the air during a wedding in Iraq. Stupid habit to me.

the attacks began long after the celebration winded down though.
the planes weren't flying overhead as the people were firing weapons.
Where did you read that info?

Actually, I have no beef with the soldiers who hit a target as directed.
Assuming the pilots are acting on orders here to the best of their ability, I would like to know WHO designated the site for a bomb attack? The person that made that call is ultimately responsible?

My beef is with the automatic "cover-up" machine that goes into high gear when mistakes DO get made. I imagine "further investigation" will eventually discover that it WAS a wedding, and the families will be compensated.

But when they say that the troops went in and didn't see what AP clearly videotaped in the rubble, it just stinks.

It's like they are so afraid of bad press that they try and present a perfect image. Which is just not believable which then makes EVERYTHING they say suspect. A dumb way to run your PR if you ask me.

I agree. Covering up the mistake with untruths only ends up being a double whammy.

I have to admit..it has shades of My Lai bout the whole thing...not once but twice have we hit muslim weddings..makes me wonder...ahmm..guys..don't you think you should have on-site reconnaissance BEFORE you launch a mission?

I recall with clarify when we at Firebase Vandergift heard the stories coming in over at My Lai...I remember my platoon sergeant going..."Well, the Army's shit has hit the fan now hasn't it?'...and we all knew the Army was going to round the wagons faster then you can say "Plausible Denialabilty"..when it was apparent they couldn't do that...they make Lt. Daley a scrapegoat...that's not totally right...they WERE the actual perpetrators of the whole massacre..but there were factors that might have changed the outcome of that whole thing...

One can not second-guess yourself in combat else it might get you killed, but...a little foresight might ensure that you don't become embroiled in one helluva FUBAR operation. Right now that pilot is being told by his superiors..."Keep your mouth shut, any questions are to be relayed to the Public Affairs Officer, your Board of Review will convene soon"...Which means..."You're screwed..and your career is over..at the very least you're going to get your wings clipped"

I have to admit..it has shades of My Lai bout the whole thing...not once but twice have we hit muslim weddings..makes me wonder...ahmm..guys..don't you think you should have on-site reconnaissance BEFORE you launch a mission?

I recall with clarify when we at Firebase Vandergift heard the stories coming in over at My Lai...I remember my platoon sergeant going..."Well, the Army's shit has hit the fan now hasn't it?'...and we all knew the Army was going to round the wagons faster then you can say "Plausible Denialabilty"..when it was apparent they couldn't do that...they make Lt. Daley a scrapegoat...that's not totally right...they WERE the actual perpetrators of the whole massacre..but there were factors that might have changed the outcome of that whole thing...

One can not second-guess yourself in combat else it might get you killed, but...a little foresight might ensure that you don't become embroiled in one helluva FUBAR operation. Right now that pilot is being told by his superiors..."Keep your mouth shut, any questions are to be relayed to the Public Affairs Officer, your Board of Review will convene soon"...Which means..."You're screwed..and your career is over..at the very least you're going to get your wings clipped"

In this day and age, if they clip the pilot from dropping the pickle in the designated barrel - then that is rediculous. It was different in Afghanistan when the pilot violated his rulebook and nailed the troops on exercises in a designated restircted area without waiting for confirmation - but if a pilot gets assigned a target and nails it, I don't see any way they can legitimately go after him...

but then again - the brown stuff does flow downhill....

But if they nail him for it - I'll just be even more disappointed in it all.

-Z-

I have to admit..it has shades of My Lai bout the whole thing...not once but twice have we hit muslim weddings..makes me wonder...ahmm..guys..don't you think you should have on-site reconnaissance BEFORE you launch a mission?

I recall with clarify when we at Firebase Vandergift heard the stories coming in over at My Lai...I remember my platoon sergeant going..."Well, the Army's shit has hit the fan now hasn't it?'...and we all knew the Army was going to round the wagons faster then you can say "Plausible Denialabilty"..when it was apparent they couldn't do that...they make Lt. Daley a scrapegoat...that's not totally right...they WERE the actual perpetrators of the whole massacre..but there were factors that might have changed the outcome of that whole thing...

One can not second-guess yourself in combat else it might get you killed, but...a little foresight might ensure that you don't become embroiled in one helluva FUBAR operation. Right now that pilot is being told by his superiors..."Keep your mouth shut, any questions are to be relayed to the Public Affairs Officer, your Board of Review will convene soon"...Which means..."You're screwed..and your career is over..at the very least you're going to get your wings clipped"

In this day and age, if they clip the pilot from dropping the pickle in the designated barrel - then that is rediculous. It was different in Afghanistan when the pilot violated his rulebook and nailed the troops on exercises in a designated restircted area without waiting for confirmation - but if a pilot gets assigned a target and nails it, I don't see any way they can legitimately go after him...

but then again - the brown stuff does flow downhill....

But if they nail him for it - I'll just be even more disappointed in it all.

-Z-

The pilot may just make it out of this without losing his wings...but..and this is a HUGE but...I'm doubtful that his career is going to last much longer...mistakes like this normally don't get a whole lot of support, being an officer also means you're part political animal..no young Captain or Major is going to be able to withstand the fallout from this...I'm afraid we've lost one more pilot to politics.

now, i didnt bother to read all of the other posts, (I did read the first one :wink: ) but was the wedding/celebration taking place under the tent? If so, then perhaps it would have looked rather suspicious to recon planes or what have you. I'm not sure what happened, but i really doubt US soldiers went "look a wedding, lets blow it to hell and back".

now, i didnt bother to read all of the other posts, (I did read the first one :wink: ) but was the wedding/celebration taking place under the tent? If so, then perhaps it would have looked rather suspicious to recon planes or what have you. I'm not sure what happened, but i really doubt US soldiers went "look a wedding, lets blow it to hell and back".

The area is a known drug smugglers route from Syria...also foreign fighters have in fact used the route to infiltrate into Iraq...now whether or not the Bedouin clan that uses that area for water/grazing is in cahoots with drug smugglers or taking money to ferry infiltrators into the area is anybody's guess..but there is no mistake...it was a wedding.