NationStates Jolt Archive

Here is a simplized definition of communism and capitalism.

IN communism every one works as hard as they can and do it for the nation. What they get is based on their needs. Usually what happens is you and your neighbour argue about who is more needy and you both forget about work.

In capitalism everyone earns as much as they can and this means people actually work and dont complain about it. In the end the big coporate companies hire the poor and give them low wages while everyone gets richer and then poor cannot start their own business as the banks do not want to lend them money as the have nothing to put down as collateral.

SO how can communism be considered as evil and capitalism as good. When it comes down to it isn't a countries true greatness in the way it treats its poorest citizen?

Communism violates peoples' rights to property, free choice (eg. religion) free speech and freedom of movement.
Capatilism doesn't. End of debate.

(and evey communist state has treated it's people appallingly badly, whereas only most capitalist nations treat their people apallingly badly -USA not included - so capitalism wins again)

Communism violates peoples' rights to property, free choice (eg. religion) free speech and freedom of movement.
Capatilism doesn't. End of debate.

(and evey communist state has treated it's people appallingly badly, whereas only most capitalist nations treat their people apallingly badly -USA not included - so capitalism wins again)

OK - it has a bad reputattion, but in theory, communism is better. The idea that everyone is equal should theoretically work.

Socialism = Communism right?

Actually not all of the communist states have treated their people that bad. China has he quickest and largest growing economy in the world and compared with the state of living before communism, it's much better now. Unfortunately under Chairman Mao it kinda sucked :P. Also Cuba did not mistreat it's citizens in the beginning, the cuban revolution was there to help it's average citizen from the tyranny of the dictatorship then there, and then it did, until all the revolutionaries died apart from Fidel Castro who turned bad. Therefore it is not communism which mistreats it's people it's the corruption of the people in charge which is the problem e.g. Stalin, Chairman Mao, Fidel Castro and that bloke from North Korea.

Communism could work, if it weren't for human corruption and greed, now if we had a computer controlled state... that would work.

Communism violates peoples' rights to property, free choice (eg. religion) free speech and freedom of movement.
Capatilism doesn't. End of debate.

(and evey communist state has treated it's people appallingly badly, whereas only most capitalist nations treat their people apallingly badly -USA not included - so capitalism wins again)

OK - it has a bad reputattion, but in theory, communism is better. The idea that everyone is equal should theoretically work.

Socialism = Communism right?

Communism has abad reputation becuase all communist counrties are now worse off then when they started, and got there via a trail of bodies. Communism takes the idea of "equality" too far. Equality is everyone has the same rights, not making everyone identical (e. government-allocated property, collective farming). Even in a perfect world, communism's a bad idea.

and Socialism is differnt. It's kind of "ok, we're concerned about the ordianary people so we'll take some money from the better off via taxes, but not too much as we don't want to be called communist."

Actually not all of the communist states have treated their people that bad. China has he quickest and largest growing economy in the world and compared with the state of living before communism, it's much better now. Also Cuba did not mistreat it's citizens in the beginning, the cuban revolution was there to help it's average citizen from the tyranny of the dictatorship then there, and then it did, until all the revolutionaries died apart from Fidel Castro who turned bad. Therefore it is not communism which mistreats it's people it's the corruption of the people in charge which is the problem e.g. Stalin, Chairman Mao, Fidel Castro and that bloke from North Korea.

Communism could work, if it weren't for human corruption and greed, now if we had a computer controlled state... that would work.

Actually, China still treats it's people very poorly *cough*Tianamen Square*cough*. There is still a large secret police dedicated to hunting down "dissidents" (eg. anyone with religious beliefs not controlled by the government) and do u think that all those people in Tibet actually WANT to be in China?

And the communists in Cuba may have not been very bad at first, but let's not foget that the original revolutionaries were not communist exactly (that came later and involved foreign aid and the USSR). It turned bad, as u said, when allt he revolutionaries died (except fr Castro, who seems to have found the Fountain of Life, if not of youth -he's 81!!), and who took over when they died? the actual communists. And the beatings began...

I believe that communism is a good way for the greedy, corrupt people u mentioned to get into power. Even if they weren't, I'd oppose communism on the grounds of rights to property and free speech (and I'd probably get executed for it, which isn't a good thing, as I'm not a very inspiring martyr :D ).

Food for thought.

the idea that averyone is created equal doen't stand up. Some people have needs and need to be protected and helped. I didn't ask to be born with a herditary heart condition but i've got one. My capitalist government (uk) has been kind enough to impose a welfare state for me and every other citizen, nice of em i think.

In a communist country id probably be working in a mine somewhere, for a pitence just like my ancestors did.

Capitalism 1
Communism 0

also, in a single party system you don't have a say. In a multi party system you do! even if you are a of a different political belief! How novel!

Capitalism 2
Communism 0

well i've convinced myself at least. :?

I hereby refuse to take part in another draining and pointless Capitalism vs. State Captalism debate! All the arguments are heard-before and sterile.
Adeu!

is there a middle ground?

It may be that we as a species have not yet evolved high enough on a purely social/cohesive level in order for communism and socialism (in it's pure form) to work effectively as yet. Perhaps in a 1000 or 10,000 years from now, who knows.

As eveyone knows communism looks great on paper but does not work as yet (over the long run, anyway) due to the reason above.

We are in essence to wrapped up in "having" over "being".

is there a middle ground? No.

I think capitalism/socialism mix is fine. E.g. only socialised in certain areas, like public transport, healthcare, etc.

Socialism = Communism right?

Not at all.

Socialism is democratic and somewhat pragmatic. Communism is an inflexible ideology which can only be imposed under strict command.

It may be that we as a species have not yet evolved high enough on a purely social/cohesive level in order for communism and socialism (in it's pure form) to work effectively as yet.

Instead, i would suppose that it is the evolution of science and technology that is the main fetter on there ever being a genuine communist society, as the most important precondition for a communist revolution is the elimination of scarcity.

"the idea that averyone is created equal doen't stand up"

Everyone IS created equal UNDER THE LAW, so that the law should be BLIND and EQUALLY APPLIED no matter what physical or mental deficiencies or differences a citizen may be suffering from OR enjoying, so that NO ONE should be above the law.

There is NO other implication to the phrase "averyone[sic] is created equal".


Thus speaks His Most Fairest Excellency, His Majesty Vilmos The Just and Reasonable, King of Kandino

Heads is capitalism, tails is communism.

*flips a coin*

Hmmm...it came up heads. I guess I'll go with capitalism.

Communism violates peoples' rights to property

Who says that people need to own lots of things? Capitalist societies, that's who.

Communism violates peoples' rights to property, free choice (eg. religion) free speech and freedom of movement.
Capatilism doesn't. End of debate.

(and evey communist state has treated it's people appallingly badly, whereas only most capitalist nations treat their people apallingly badly -USA not included - so capitalism wins again)

The end result of communism, the ideal, put forth by Karl Marx is no government, basically anarchy, but not really... To each according to his needs and each according to his abilities... Everything is communal...

I do agree that all communist states have treated their people appallingly bad, however, in the beginning stages of capitalism, conditions for the working class in all capitalistic, industrializing nations were horrendous. The conditions still remain horrendous for illegal immigrants and other bottom-rung people...

Imagine this, you are starving, barely can get up, working on a farm on a capitalist country. Here comes the Commies and declares everyone equal. Now you get the wage everyone is getting, money to get yourself food, but a heavier work.

Communism 1-0 Capitalism

Capitalism is not good. It leads an easy way to bankrupcy for a country. Dont you know why Africa is struggling right now? All the rich ppl have taken their money away and live in other countries. If Communism was there, they would be working like the rest of the country

Communism 2-0 Capitalism

Remmember, anything that falls into wrong hands is a threat. Giving a baby a gun wont result in good ending. Giving a country like US to Bush didnt result in good thing either. Its just that wrong people were at the wrong time, with too much fame

Also, many of you are mixing Stalinism with Communism. Stalinism is more like fascist beliefs, and opposes almost all of Marxist beliefs.

"the idea that averyone is created equal doen't stand up"

People do not have equal needs, but they have an equal right to have those needs satisfied.

is there a middle ground?

Market socialism.

In a communist country id probably be working in a mine somewhere, for a pitence just like my ancestors did.

Actually, in pure capitlalism, you would.

also, in a single party system you don't have a say. In a multi party system you do! even if you are a of a different political belief! How novel!

Or you can get rid of parties and have the people make the decisions rather than a government.

IN communism every one works as hard as they can and do it for the nation. What they get is based on their needs. Usually what happens is you and your neighbour argue about who is more needy and you both forget about work.

Actually, people work only as hard as it has been determined necessary, so work hours are much shorter.

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Free your mind!

You know what... People who haven't read the Communist Manifesto and are blasting Communism, should walk away and read Marx's ideas...

Actually, China is a state capitalist country in many ways, not communist. A surprising amount (including some healthcare) is privatised, so you're really complaining about the oppression of capitalism when you're arguing about the evils of China.

Poverty is not a fact of life; it is a fact of capitalism.

Communism is a "Garden of Eden" system, i.e it could work but you have to make sure that no-one gets into power... ten things become complicated as again things would revert back to a more capitalist society, so it'd have to be private buisness outlawed, but some sort of collective body that keeps an eye on production, distribution of rations etc etc, Communism i suppose cannot work well on a country sized basis... perhaps community wise... but not on a country like the USSR

I feel that communism is a great theory but it leads to a thing I like to call the strong man takes power. People have tried communism multiple times but they have all failed due to the fact that dictator would be able to take power and in the end the country would be destroyed. look at Russia or Romania. They are still recovering from the effects. Also there has never been a succesful communist society but most European country's and america has worked.

Capitalism: Incredibly good for those who make it to the top, incredibly harsh to those on the bottom (and there must be those on the bottom for capitalism to work).

Communism: The ideal, equality for all. However its easily corrupted by dictatorship rule in today's society.

Socialism: The most equal economic system possible today without extreme corruption. Handing the means of production to those producing things.

Yay for socialism!

Here is a simplized definition of communism and capitalism.

IN communism every one works as hard as they can and do it for the nation. What they get is based on their needs. Usually what happens is you and your neighbour argue about who is more needy and you both forget about work.

In capitalism everyone earns as much as they can and this means people actually work and dont complain about it. In the end the big coporate companies hire the poor and give them low wages while everyone gets richer and then poor cannot start their own business as the banks do not want to lend them money as the have nothing to put down as collateral.

SO how can communism be considered as evil and capitalism as good. When it comes down to it isn't a countries true greatness in the way it treats its poorest citizen?

Capitalism is better. Communism, even in theory, supports the weak and is anti-animalistic tendancies. Let us face it, humans are animals and always will be. Communism supports the weak at the expense of the strong. So of the two, I support capitalism more.

Though I am more of a liberal capitalist (or capitalistic socialist, if that makes sense...). I believe that the basics should be equal no matter what (education, heathcare, etc). Yes, you can go to private schools and hospitals, but the public schools would be heavily supported and so on. This will give people a more equal chance to rise and fall according to their abilities.

Capitalism is not good. It leads an easy way to bankrupcy for a country. Dont you know why Africa is struggling right now? All the rich ppl have taken their money away and live in other countries. If Communism was there, they would be working like the rest of the country

Africa is in such a hole because there is almost nothing in terms of a justice system and police force. All the countries are on a fiat money system, so the governments print money like crazy to pay for services, which are usually military related, which leads to inflation and hence the reason why everyone is poor. Mugabe's attempts to form a socialist society are proof of this.

Your view on capital is flawed. An economy does not have a finite amount of captial. Money can be created and destroyed.

Africa is in such a hole because there is almost nothing in terms of a justice system and police force. All the countries are on a fiat money system, so the governments print money like crazy to pay for services, which are usually military related, which leads to inflation and hence the reason why everyone is poor. Mugabe's attempts to form a socialist society are proof of this.

As well as because the West lent them so much moneyin the past, and now almost everything they produce goes to paying off their debt. CANCEL WORLD DEBT, I say!

i think capitalism is better.

Africa is in such a hole because there is almost nothing in terms of a justice system and police force. All the countries are on a fiat money system, so the governments print money like crazy to pay for services, which are usually military related, which leads to inflation and hence the reason why everyone is poor. Mugabe's attempts to form a socialist society are proof of this.

As well as because the West lent them so much moneyin the past, and now almost everything they produce goes to paying off their debt. CANCEL WORLD DEBT, I say!

When the leaders get loaned the money, they either embezzle it or spend it on some stupid war. Those who spend it honestly spend it on economic growth programs, usually agriculture. However, they are still disadvantaged by American and European farm subsidies, which keep the price for argriculture products low artifically.

there is no shortage of glaring unsustainable flaws in both economic fanaticism and the honest and sincere though imperfect effort of carl marx to come up with a better alternative to it.

the future belongs to neither, though communALism, was the source of our comming down from the trees and out of our caves and starting villages of more then one kinship/moity.

both make the mistake of begining and ending with the coerciveness and emotional attatchments of human society, ignoring the natural realities upon which the very existence of the human species is utterly dependent.

my 'barter and potlatchings' are on sustainable eco-socialist high tec low stress do it yourself potlatching para-anarchy.

the printing of money is already a waste of money to do so. it may take the generality of joe sixpacks a few more decades to realize this. or it may take only a VERY few (potentialy painful) more years.

=^^=
.../\...

No, I understand communism, and I hate it for that reason, not because the US tells me to.

When it comes down to it isn't a countries true greatness in the way it treats its poorest citizen?
No.

It may be that we as a species have not yet evolved high enough on a purely social/cohesive level in order for communism and socialism (in it's pure form) to work effectively as yet. Perhaps in a 1000 or 10,000 years from now, who knows.

As eveyone knows communism looks great on paper but does not work as yet (over the long run, anyway) due to the reason above.

Communism will never work. It doesn't even work in theory unless you take the view that 2+2=5 works on paper.

Actually, China is a state capitalist country in many ways, not communist. A surprising amount (including some healthcare) is privatised, so you're really complaining about the oppression of capitalism when you're arguing about the evils of China.

Poverty is not a fact of life; it is a fact of capitalism.
Are you drunk? It's the communist government, not the capitalist entrepeneurs, who are opressing the Chinese people. Poverty is a fact of capitalism? Well, lets see: E. Germany vs W. Germany, Hong Kong and Taiwan vs China, N. Korea vs S. Korea, W. Europe vs E. Europe......

I'm very left wing, but Communism just doesn't work. Restricted Capitalism is the way to go.

You know what... People who haven't read the Communist Manifesto and are blasting Communism, should walk away and read Marx's ideas... I did and if anything it made your side seem worse.

Are you drunk? It's the communist government, not the capitalist entrepeneurs, who are opressing the Chinese people. Poverty is a fact of capitalism? Well, lets see: E. Germany vs W. Germany, Hong Kong and Taiwan vs China, N. Korea vs S. Korea, W. Europe vs E. Europe......

China isn't a Communist country. The USSR was not. E. Germany, Cuba, N. Korea, Vietnam...there's never been one. Never in history (except for some small group whose name escapes me). The reason: people are stupid, greedy, dangerous animals, and the only way to stop that is to have tight control over them - at which point you no longer have Communism.

Now, as for the debate. You want to compare capitalism and Communism, you're looking in the wrong places. The USSR was essentially a closed economy (within Comintern/Comecon and the Warsaw Pact) whereas the West has a much more open, global economy. Net result: The former USSR and WP is poor because its' capitalist system (and yes it was capitalist; there were HUGE discrepancies in living standards and wages, despite the hefty state social support system) was concentrated within its' borders. The West, meanwhile, is rich. It's rich off the backs off people elsewhere. Think of the West as encompassing its' own manufacturing and material extraction areas, and the west, or rather the capitalist nations, become a giant version of today's Eastern Europe.

Finally, Africa: Give an African leader a million dollars; in two days a million dollars' worth of rifles will be in the country.

Capitalism works because it plays into the flaws of humans, their natural desires, and the fact that competition produces better results.

In communism, there is no incentive to produce...and in Communism, regardless of contribution to society, everyone receives equal benefits, rather than those who work more and contribute more receiving their due.

The only area in which a communist form of some sort is sustainable is in the family unit. No matter how little a five-year-old contributes, he gets his equal share...it doesn't work.

First, it is equal freedom to satisfy needs, not equal share. Second, reputation and prestige still exist, they just don't come from owning the most stuff.

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"Beside him is a beautiful androgyne called SWITCH, aiming a large gun at Neo."--Script of The Matrix (I love The Matrix, but that is still funny.)
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!
http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/eddy_the_great/steatopygia.jpg

Eek, didn't get through my edit...

Well, I suppose total communist nirvana could exist, and we might be happy with it...however, that kind of anarchy would require the entire world to be a part of it.