NationStates Jolt Archive

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,4386,252261,00.html?

America deserves some love and respect
Stop bashing the US and all things American just because you do not agree with Washington's policies

By Roger Mitton

EARLIER this week, a reception was held to mark the launch in America of a book highlighting the negotiations that led to the US-Singapore Free Trade Agreement.


SOUTH KOREA: Protesters rallying against US Vice-President Dick Cheney's visit this year.
Among those speaking at the event were the chief negotiators for each side, Mr Ralph Ives, the Assistant US Trade Representative for the Asia-Pacific, and Singapore's Ambassador at Large, Professor Tommy Koh.

Both ladled praise on each other.

At a time when it is fashionable, both here and around the world, to lambast the United States for pretty well everything, it provided a rare interlude of gracious amity.

One of Prof Koh's comments stood out. He recalled that many people had asked how a little country like Singapore can negotiate with a superpower like the US.


INDIA: Activists from the Communist Party (Marxist-Leninist) torching an American flag in a demonstration against the killings in Iraq.
Well, despite the disparity in size, that is exactly what happened.

'I never felt bullied or intimidated during the two years of negotiation,' said Prof Koh. 'The United States treated Singapore with great respect.'

That reciprocity of respect should not be disparaged or taken for granted.

In referring to it, Prof Koh's remark echoed a statement made earlier the same day at an Asia Foundation panel discussing America's role in Asia.

One of Prof Koh's colleagues, Dr Kim Kyong-won, a former South Korean ambassador in Washington, noted that the US currently has excellent government-to-government relations with all the countries of North-east Asia, except North Korea.

But, said Dr Kim, if you walk outside the government offices and ask ordinary Chinese, South Koreans or Japanese what they think of the US, the answer will not be positive.


GAZA: Palestinian militants burning a US flag during a protest against violence in Iraq. -- AFP-
Nowadays, it seems the whole world hates America.

The fact that the US is the only dominant superpower in the post-Cold War age does not help matters. No one likes to be dominated, either directly or indirectly.

And unfortunately, even with the best of intentions, America does often give the impression that it seeks a kind of soft domination, a desire for all the world to be built in its image.

That was exemplified by a comment in The New York Times earlier this week by Mr Nicholas Kristof, one of the more objective and measured columnists in that most sophisticated of newspapers.

Bearing in mind America's goal to democratise the Middle East, he recounted a recent trip to Iran.

Mr Kristof wrote: 'Ordinary people are proving themselves irrepressible, and they will triumph someday and forge a glistening example of a Muslim country that is a pro-American democracy in the Middle East.'

It was that 'pro-American' that stuck in the craw. In an unsubtle way, it epitomised why America brings such opprobrium upon itself.

We all want to be democratic, and we all want the citizens of Iran and other nations to be democratic. But that does not mean they have to be pro-American.

Americans would do the world a favour if they would understand this better. But their frantic desire for everyone to love and respect them, and to be like them, gets in the way.

Of course, to a degree, every country seeks the same thing.

In his talk earlier this week, Prof Koh pleaded for the US to show South-east Asia a little more love and respect.

Frankly, however, what is needed now is some reverse flow. Life is a two-way street, and in these times of rabid anti-US sentiment, Americans would welcome a little more love and respect from South-east Asia and the rest of the world.

They deserve it. For there is no more generous and loving people on earth.

That is often forgotten when the daily press headlines prisoner abuse and bomb attacks on civilians.

Sure, their government and military make horrendous mistakes. But it pays to remember that the disparity Dr Kim referred to in North-east Asia between official government views and those of ordinary people is also prevalent here.

If you walk onto the street of any American town and ask the plain folks what they think about the government in Washington, you will get a right earful.

Just look at the plummeting approval ratings of President George W. Bush.

No one lambasts the US government more than Americans themselves.

So, let's keep things in perspective.

Others should not bash Americans and all things American simply because they oppose US government policies.

Frankly, it is hard for any right-thinking person not to be offended by many of those policies.

For example, the hypocrisy of bringing out an annual human rights report condemning others for detention without trial and similar abuses when the US itself is detaining 600 innocents at Guantanamo is an outrage.

The execution of a mentally-ill person in Texas this week defies comprehension in the world's most developed nation.

The sight of dozens of homeless people sleeping on the streets of the US capital every night is shameful, as are the long queues at charity kitchens every morning.

You see, it is not hard to find fault with America. At the same time, it is hard not to be offended by this ugly global epidemic of anti-Americanism. It has gone too far and it needs a corrective.

So let me say, upfront, that I still like America despite all its flaws. And I actually like the people.

In my opinion, it's time they were cut some slack.

They too deserve a little love and respect.

The author is a journalist working for The Straits Times newspaper in Singapore.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"It was that 'pro-American' that stuck in the craw. In an unsubtle way, it epitomised why America brings such opprobrium upon itself.

We all want to be democratic, and we all want the citizens of Iran and other nations to be democratic. But that does not mean they have to be pro-American."

The man hits it right on the spot.I am going to repost and edit the original
"reasons they people hate America" list I put up a few days back.to make it more factual.

Oh,and to give an example of how good relations between our 2 countries are,here's something.Singapore is the only country in the world to have a military base/detachment activaly training on a long-term basis with the USA.

Quite simply, the USA needs to be accountable for its actions, and more responsive to international opinion.

To dismiss, successively, the UN, Geneva Convention, and Red Cross as irrelevant and outmoded because they object to USA unilaterlaism is a pretty poor track record.

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other.

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it

You can't call yourself an American if you can't criticize the country!

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other. Love is a wonderful thing.

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other. Love is a wonderful thing.

that's why the relationship between singapore and the usa cannot be called love.

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other. Love is a wonderful thing.

that's why the relationship between singapore and the usa cannot be called love. Why not?

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other.

The "totalitarian" regime is in fact an authoritarian democracy.Things are changing in the political,social and economic landscape here.As for Malaysia,we do not rely on them for water.We have enough desalination plants and water recycling(we recycle sewage water to make it into drinking water) facilities to ensure that.Do not comment on what you do not know about.We have our own deficiencies without some ignorant american like you commenting on MY country's INTERNAL and REGIONAL affairs,thank you very much.And very true,we use each other as we benefit each other,thats reality.

We do not take advantage of an ally like the USA though,though the USA does the converse when you regard the protectionist stance it takes against British steel.The "problems" between Malaysia and Singapore are between two separate neighbouring nations,and we do not need Americans to back us up.We are quite capable of holding our own with either Indonesia or Malaysia,or any country in South East Asia,without American help. Do not comment fully on what you do not understand.

Just as I tend not to comment on internal American politics or shit like that as I do not understand it anyway,with all this Republican or Democrat nonsense flying around,you do not comment on MY countrys affairs or the manner in which we conduct them within our own territories.

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other.

The "totalitarian" regime is in fact an authoritarian democracy.Things are changing in the political,social and economic landscape here.As for Malaysia,we do not rely on them for water.We have enough desalination plants and water recycling(we recycle sewage water to make it into drinking water) facilities to ensure that.Do not comment on what you do not know about.We have our own deficiencies without some ignorant american like you commenting on MY country's INTERNAL and REGIONAL affairs,thank you very much.And very true,we use each other as we benefit each other,thats reality.

We do not take advantage of an ally like the USA though,though the USA does the converse when you regard the protectionist stance it takes against British steel.The "problems" between Malaysia and Singapore are between two separate neighbouring nations,and we do not need Americans to back us up.We are quite capable of holding our own with either Indonesia or Malaysia,or any country in South East Asia,without American help. Do not comment fully on what you do not understand.

Just as I tend not to comment on internal American politics or shit like that as I do not understand it anyway,with all this Republican or Democrat nonsense flying around,you do not comment on MY countrys affairs or the manner in which we conduct them within our own territories. Awww our puppet countries think they can go it alone. Isn't it cute?

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. --Thomas Jefferson

and

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not
warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance?" --Thomas Jefferson

No offence, Emperor Joe, but I'll take Jefferson's words over yours any day of the week.

Saudir, I'm not American, but you can guess where I come from.

Come on, let's admit it, the Singapore government isn't that likeable.

single party state
hefty fine for littering (which has its bad sides too)
no political freedom
paranoid of invasion

How about the Canada-US relationship?

The US has protected us for nearly a hundred years and not even a few nasty words or trade agreements can break the bond between our two nations. Canada, a population of 30 million, can negotiate on equal terms with the US, a nation of 300 million.

I think most nation's relationships are derived out of mutual desire to use the other for their own gain. However, the US has developed a good relationship with many nations that are not about that. US and Britain, Canada, Israel, maybe even Japan, Singapore, Mexico, and others.

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it

I kinda like the way Al Franken put it in his book: "You see, they (conservatives) love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow."

There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

Here's what a certain president who talked about "walking softly and carrying a big stick" had to say on this subject:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-President Theodore Roosevelt

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

If this guy can get paid money to write articles like this then I can be a bloody superstar.

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it

Well put. A glance at the polls shows a rising tide of discontent and a willingness to vote out the current administration.

What I haven't seen said by anyone is that Bush has been given much more play by Americans because of the attacks of 9-11. America was in shock, then the anthrax right on top of that didn't help. The natural flight or fight response was stilted toward fight because there was no flight available to the citizenry. So tremendous anger and resolve flooded the air itself. I would dare say that the level of nationalism and concern had not been so strong since the confrontational days of Kruschev v Kennedy.

Bush said the right things and seemed to show the right resolve to quash further attacks. For the most part the world understood going after the Taliban and bin Laden. Then a strong case was made regarding another attack, this time at the hands of Iraqi sponsored terrorism. I doubt at this point any other nation would have responded differently.

But Americans have a deep sense of fair play. We get really pissed when someone turns out to be a liar. Especially when we feel manipulated. It just cuts across the grain of the average person struggling to get through this week, this month, raising our kids to be decent people - hopefully with a good education. Most people do not have the time to keep up with it all. But it has become apparent to most that at the very least Bush is not the leader we want or need. Come November, short of some redeeming development, Bush & Co. will be on the way out when we, with our fingers crossed on the left hand while the right holds our nose, will hand Kerry a mandate for dramatic change of direction.

SHL

dammit, dont tell me this one is gonna get locked too!

Ahh well...

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

I think you're over-reacting a little; he didn't say only America.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

I think you're over-reacting a little; he didn't say only America.

Yes, perhaps I was. My backs up and I'm a little quick to jump on people who I normally agree with. Must be the weather.

Quite simply, the USA needs to be accountable for its actions, and more responsive to international opinion.

To dismiss, successively, the UN, Geneva Convention, and Red Cross as irrelevant and outmoded because they object to USA unilaterlaism is a pretty poor track record.
Oh, yeah. Right. If they wouldn't help us, we wouldn't do anything. I am ashamed of some of the people in this world... Notebley people like you, Saddam, Osama... :evil:

Why people are trying to get Bush out of office - Kerry's lies. Dugh.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

I think you're over-reacting a little; he didn't say only America.

Yes, perhaps I was. My backs up and I'm a little quick to jump on people who I normally agree with. Must be the weather.

The best way to criticize is calmly and carefully.

Quite simply, the USA needs to be accountable for its actions, and more responsive to international opinion.

To dismiss, successively, the UN, Geneva Convention, and Red Cross as irrelevant and outmoded because they object to USA unilaterlaism is a pretty poor track record.

Please clearify. The citizens of the United States are not to blame for these actions, the government is.

The best way to criticize is calmly and carefully.

I usually do. It's been a long week.

How about the Canada-US relationship?

The US has protected us for nearly a hundred years

Protected us from what? The only country that has ever tried to inavde Canada is the United States.. We have had no need for "protection" no one hates us.. ;)

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

What is your definition of love of country?

I love the America that is the the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Free has in it the duty to be watchful of those in power. Totalitarianism calls for blindly following the leader.

Brave are those, who motivated by a deep and abiding love of the principles that set us apart, have the balls to stand by their convictions and fight for them. Cowards go with the path of least resistence and rather than using their head for more than a hat rack, blindly try to shout out the calm voices of reason with the raging chant of the mob.

As for this so called Patriot Act, it is unbecoming of Americans to set aside their freedoms, or the freedoms of others, in a vain attempt to buy some false security. Those who first fought for America's independence (http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.1.html#245.note2) put it well, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I am concerned with holding at bay the tyrants who would come in and destroy try to destroy America. But it may well be that while looking out for them we turn a blind eye to the tyrants within who would sell our liberties on the cheap and shrivel the concept of our, "government of the people, by the people, for the people . . ." until it perishes from the earth.

SHL

That was a mildly bizzare article. The author documented very well all of America's wrongs and mentioned everything we do wrong, but somehow expects everybody to give America more love and respect. hmm.

Obviously, because the vast majority of people in America don't really give a crap what goes on in Washington as long as they have something to eat and a place to live, we have a representative government so the entire population doesn't have to decide on the country's actions. But that republican structure (i.e. a republic, not neccessarily the political party) also means that the government's actions are determined directly by the general will of the assembly of our government. However, it's not as if government officials never leave their jobs, they go home and are influenced by the general will of the public, which affects their decisions while they are at work.
When we started our invasion of Afghanistan, and later of Iraq, most of America was in favor of military action, or else the President, having an election upcoming, would have been discouraged enough to not engage his forces and would have saved his popularity ratings. However, American culture is not entirely practical, and especially in this day and age where everything is instantaneous (i sound old and wizened here), the general American mindset is that victory should be instantaneous too. The media seems to think that we should've gotten Osama bin Laden about a week after 9/11, and is equally quick to point out each and every casualty in Iraq while conveniently ignoring the fact that we are at war, and, shocking as it may seem, people have a tendency to die in wars. *snort*

if we Americans want to get any respect, we should have some for our own government first. Before we reflexively point at Bush whenever anything goes wrong, we should consider the hellish, logistical mess that is reality, and rather than bash him for not getting everything done perfectly we should have respect for the immense task it is to be the commander-in-chief of the most powerful standing army on the planet.

Before we reflexively point at Bush whenever anything goes wrong, we should consider the hellish, logistical mess that is reality, and rather than bash him for not getting everything done perfectly we should have respect for the immense task it is to be the commander-in-chief of the most powerful standing army on the planet.

We went into Iraq because of an immediate threat that turned out to be the result of a combination of incompetance as the commander-in-chief of the most powerful standing army on the planet, a prediliction to get Hussein and the acceptance of really shaky intelligence as an urgent basis for war.

I don't have Saddam snugglies, the man was a horror. But what is the real agenda here? It is hardly a war on terror at this point.

SHL

*Hugs America*

*Hugs America*

*hugs China*

I don't have Saddam snugglies, the man was a horror. But what is the real agenda here? It is hardly a war on terror at this point.

SHL

i believe that the month or so that Bush spent trying to wrangle the UN gave Saddam plenty of time to get rid of anything and everything he might've had in the country at the time, or at least get his weapons mobile. The idea of weapons inspectors randomly popping in for a visit was a good idea, but the UN isn't exactly known for lightning decisiveness, and by the time Hans Blix and his buddies got there Saddam had already covered his tracks.

you have a point, nevertheless, and i always have been disappointed by the infinitely cliche, yet valid, lack of solid intelligence before the invasion. but spare me from claims that the whole thing is all for the oil.

I don't have Saddam snugglies, the man was a horror. But what is the real agenda here? It is hardly a war on terror at this point.

SHL

i believe that the month or so that Bush spent trying to wrangle the UN gave Saddam plenty of time to get rid of anything and everything he might've had in the country at the time, or at least get his weapons mobile. The idea of weapons inspectors randomly popping in for a visit was a good idea, but the UN isn't exactly known for lightning decisiveness, and by the time Hans Blix and his buddies got there Saddam had already covered his tracks.

you have a point, nevertheless, and i always have been disappointed by the infinitely cliche, yet valid, lack of solid intelligence before the invasion. but spare me from claims that the whole thing is all for the oil.

I don't have Saddam snugglies, the man was a horror. But what is the real agenda here? It is hardly a war on terror at this point.

SHL

i believe that the month or so that Bush spent trying to wrangle the UN gave Saddam plenty of time to get rid of anything and everything he might've had in the country at the time, or at least get his weapons mobile. The idea of weapons inspectors randomly popping in for a visit was a good idea, but the UN isn't exactly known for lightning decisiveness, and by the time Hans Blix and his buddies got there Saddam had already covered his tracks.

you have a point, nevertheless, and i always have been disappointed by the infinitely cliche, yet valid, lack of solid intelligence before the invasion. but thanks for sparing me from claims that the whole thing is all for the oil.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

It was not intended as a bait, but was posted in response to someone who wished to state what America deserved.

If I had wished to bait I would have said that America deserves regime change.

bump

:lol: Just because Singapore wants to use the US to pressure Malaysia to continue selling her water, or to make sure the totalitarian regime stays in power.

They're both using each other.

The "totalitarian" regime is in fact an authoritarian democracy.Things are changing in the political,social and economic landscape here.As for Malaysia,we do not rely on them for water.We have enough desalination plants and water recycling(we recycle sewage water to make it into drinking water) facilities to ensure that.Do not comment on what you do not know about.We have our own deficiencies without some ignorant american like you commenting on MY country's INTERNAL and REGIONAL affairs,thank you very much.And very true,we use each other as we benefit each other,thats reality.

We do not take advantage of an ally like the USA though,though the USA does the converse when you regard the protectionist stance it takes against British steel.The "problems" between Malaysia and Singapore are between two separate neighbouring nations,and we do not need Americans to back us up.We are quite capable of holding our own with either Indonesia or Malaysia,or any country in South East Asia,without American help. Do not comment fully on what you do not understand.

Just as I tend not to comment on internal American politics or shit like that as I do not understand it anyway,with all this Republican or Democrat nonsense flying around,you do not comment on MY countrys affairs or the manner in which we conduct them within our own territories. Awww our puppet countries think they can go it alone. Isn't it cute?

We can bloody well go it alone because we are independent.Our alignment with the USA is necessary for survival,just like Israel.We have never been and will never be a puppet of the USA.We are equal partners and associates.Do not think you can take advantage of us just because of our size and our pro-american government.We do what is necessary for survival.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

It was not intended as a bait, but was posted in response to someone who wished to state what America deserved.

If I had wished to bait I would have said that America deserves regime change.

Smeagol,thar someone you are referring to is me.I did not state that America deserved respect and love.If you look at some earlier topics of mine,you know that I am anti-american,mainly of their government.

I just felt that the article I posted had some relevance and balanced out some earlier articles I posted.Do NOT make the mistake of accusing me of being pro-American.I try to be a realist.America right now is a necessary evil in my region and remains so for my country for at least a decade more.I am pragmatic.I feel that America should REALLY get rid of Bush.For God's sake,at least Clinton knew something about what he was doing.

Saudir, I'm not American, but you can guess where I come from.

Come on, let's admit it, the Singapore government isn't that likeable.

single party state
hefty fine for littering (which has its bad sides too)
no political freedom
paranoid of invasion

yes,I admit it.Our country isn't perfect.even I am critical of some of the domestic policies of my govt.but,here's my comment on this as.As a patriot,I will defend to the deat my homeland.the government is a different matter.And I can hazard a guess as to your origins;Singapore/Hong Kong/China/Malaysia/Indonesia. Thats all I can think of.

single party state:true enough.but its a single party government.other parties still exist.of course,there is only 1 opposition seat in parliament.the PAP are very intelligent.You have to give them credit where it is due.of course,sme of their policies are.....not to public liking,but then again,they have done some necessary but hard decisions in our long-term interests.I admire and respect them but am very critical of many of their policies.

hefty fine for littering:hey,benefits the environment.that is the culture of the people in Singapore sadly.unless you use the stick approach in regards to this,they won't listen.the fine for littering is necessary.that's my position.people need to be told some basic things and drill it into them.

no political freedom:i wouldn't say NO political freedom,but rather RESTRICTED political freedom.still,the government has a tendency to sue its opponents into the ground.a very negative policy of the government.you need political diversity to survive.imo,thats slowly changing.very slowly.

paranoid of invasion:yes,definitely agree.because of that,i am being conscripted at the end of the year.honestly,we have over 200 MBT's,several "silver bullets"(if Israel has 500 nukes,Singapore has "silver bullets" as last resort weapons.I don't know what they are,but probably WMD/last resort weapons,to ensure victory in desperate situations,as well as stealth frigates and cruise missiles).every year,at least a quarter of the budget is given over to the military for expenditure.i think that our armed forces is taking the concept of overkill a BIT too far.

still,it sure as hell makes pretty parade pieces on National Day.

there's my position on that.true enough,no country or govt is perfect.but give credt where credit is due.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

It was not intended as a bait, but was posted in response to someone who wished to state what America deserved.

If I had wished to bait I would have said that America deserves regime change.

Smeagol,thar someone you are referring to is me.I did not state that America deserved respect and love.If you look at some earlier topics of mine,you know that I am anti-american,mainly of their government.

I just felt that the article I posted had some relevance and balanced out some earlier articles I posted.Do NOT make the mistake of accusing me of being pro-American.I try to be a realist.America right now is a necessary evil in my region and remains so for my country for at least a decade more.I am pragmatic.I feel that America should REALLY get rid of Bush.For God's sake,at least Clinton knew something about what he was doing.

My apologies if my poverty of expression has caused offence or misunderstanding.

I do not regard myself as anti-American, but I do believe that the present US government is doing harm to America's reputation abroad (I am an Aussie). I am concerned that the US has taken its eye of the ball by becoming entagled in Iraq, instead of fighting Al Qaeda. I am concerned that the Iraq war will merely prove a recruiting bonus for Al Qaeda, particulary in light of the latest revelations from there. But I still believe that the US can recover from its current situation, although I doubt if that would be possible under its present administaration.
Seems we are basically on the same side. Peace.

America does not, at the moment, deserve love and respect.

Instead, it needs to earn some love and respect.

And what nation doesn't?

You know, Smeagol, this type of comment is just as baiting and just as destructive as the kind made by those idiots that think the US can do no wrong.

It was not intended as a bait, but was posted in response to someone who wished to state what America deserved.

If I had wished to bait I would have said that America deserves regime change.

Smeagol,thar someone you are referring to is me.I did not state that America deserved respect and love.If you look at some earlier topics of mine,you know that I am anti-american,mainly of their government.

I just felt that the article I posted had some relevance and balanced out some earlier articles I posted.Do NOT make the mistake of accusing me of being pro-American.I try to be a realist.America right now is a necessary evil in my region and remains so for my country for at least a decade more.I am pragmatic.I feel that America should REALLY get rid of Bush.For God's sake,at least Clinton knew something about what he was doing.

My apologies if my poverty of expression has caused offence or misunderstanding.

I do not regard myself as anti-American, but I do believe that the present US government is doing harm to America's reputation abroad (I am an Aussie). I am concerned that the US has taken its eye of the ball by becoming entagled in Iraq, instead of fighting Al Qaeda. I am concerned that the Iraq war will merely prove a recruiting bonus for Al Qaeda, particulary in light of the latest revelations from there. But I still believe that the US can recover from its current situation, although I doubt if that would be possible under its present administaration.
Seems we are basically on the same side. Peace.

Sorry if it was too strongly worded.So you're Aussie?Guess what,I'm a Singaporean,but I'm based in Sydney.A proud Sydneysider.SYDNEY ROCKS!.

good to meet an aussie bloke on these forums.So,yeah,we are basically on the same side.ok.

Without America all you guys would be Islam and worshipping Osama.

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.

Without America all you guys would be Islam and worshipping Osama.

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.

So many things are wrong with that post....I have lost the energy to correct them.

Without America all you guys would be Islam and worshipping Osama.

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.

So many things are wrong with that post....I have lost the energy to correct them.

LOL. Agree fully. :lol:

I could care less about world opinion. If they dont like us so much thats their loss. Sure we have screwed up..more than we would like to admit but at least i can admit that!Im an american and i am proud of my country its not perfect and the is school system in my opinion is corrupt but its better than alot of places else where like pakistan or those area's in africa where warlords rule by the gun and not negotiations. Until we start getting shot at by these anti-american activists i dont care! besides they have the right to say what they want do they not? 1sts amendment is free speech and even that would be protceted by it. I would just like to see less arrogance from both foriegners and fellow americans. 8)

If any one feels like sending me a Telegram go ahead

Ilham,

You're nearly there guessing my origin. :wink:

i think Singapore's a prime place, just its government and education system i dislike. ever watch "i not stupid"? that's the bit of education system i dislike. i've been through it myself at some stages in life, and i hated it.

draft? poor you. i withdrew from PR-ship ages ago and they still want to draft me. CATCH ME IF YOU CAN! :P

Without America all you guys would be Islam and worshipping Osama.

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.

So many things are wrong with that post....I have lost the energy to correct them.

LOL. Agree fully. :lol:

Somehow,I am VERY tired of the attitude of Runica.It is wrong on SO many levels.Agreed as well that I have absolutely no energy to correct that sort of post.You will always have your ignorant Americans like Runica.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oh,Dragon,where the hell r u from?let me add-

Taiwan/Phillipines/India/Nepal/Vietnam/Myanmar/Thailand/Indonesia/Hong Kong/China/USA/Japan/Pakistan/Cambodia/Iran/Australia/New Zealand/Russia/Israel/Korea/Central Asian countries.?

Is it somewhere in there?PLEASE TELL ME!THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME!ARRGGHHHH!

-----------------------------
btw,I am actually one of those crazy ones looking forward to serving NS,as I am looking forward to serving with one of the elite units/special forces units like Guards(think a combination of Marines and Rangers),Commando's or NDU(Naval Divers Unit aka Navy Seals LITE).I basically qualify physically,though not sure about psychologically.

Ilham,
Why do you feel the need to point out that he is American. America in no way has the market cornered on people with bad political ideas and poor spelling skills.

Someone metioned that America is appparently "harming it's international reputation at the moment". But who exactly is becoming more critical? Notably, France, Germany, the new Spanish government and Arabic nations. Let's look at their tarck records, though, and see if they are really in any position to criticise us:

America has had over 200 years if uninterupted democracy.

France has not even had 100 years of uninterupted democracy.

France's first attempt at democracy resulted in a bloodbath and an Emperor

Germany has only been a uinified country for around 130 years.

In that time, Germany has starte Two World Wars (see War guilt clause: Treaty of Versialles)

Both France and Germany, at the heght of their power, used their poewr to build empires.

Spain was ruled by a dictator until the 1970's.

Even Britain was continued to be ruled undemocraticaly well into the 1800's.

There is not a singly fairly or freely elected Arabic government.

All of the Arabi governments have internal demestic policies that violate their peoples' human rights.

Now, are these really the sort of people who can go all "holier-than thou" to us? The cold war is over. We no longer need to make everyone like us for fear of an approaching 3rd World War.

(And franky, most of those countries never really liked us anyway :D )

Ilham, I'll keep the suspense going. :wink: does celeborne know?

I have no clue. I think that you have mentioned it before, but to my shame, I have forgotten.

I have no clue. I think that you have mentioned it before, but to my shame, I have forgotten.

:P just for celeborne, i'm going to disclose that I come from Hong Kong.

Someone metioned that America is appparently "harming it's international reputation at the moment". But who exactly is becoming more critical? Notably, France, Germany, the new Spanish government and Arabic nations. Let's look at their tarck records, though, and see if they are really in any position to criticise us:

America has had over 200 years if uninterupted democracy.

France has not even had 100 years of uninterupted democracy.

France's first attempt at democracy resulted in a bloodbath and an Emperor

Germany has only been a uinified country for around 130 years.

In that time, Germany has starte Two World Wars (see War guilt clause: Treaty of Versialles)

Both France and Germany, at the heght of their power, used their poewr to build empires.

Spain was ruled by a dictator until the 1970's.

Even Britain was continued to be ruled undemocraticaly well into the 1800's.

There is not a singly fairly or freely elected Arabic government.

All of the Arabi governments have internal demestic policies that violate their peoples' human rights.

Now, are these really the sort of people who can go all "holier-than thou" to us? The cold war is over. We no longer need to make everyone like us for fear of an approaching 3rd World War.

(And franky, most of those countries never really liked us anyway :D )

And your point is what exactly????
None of the things that you have mentioned impact in any way on what damage is being done to the US, both now and for the future.
You have no need to make everyone like you at all.
But surely it is in your own best interests to cultivate friends instead of enemies for the future.

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

What is your definition of love of country?

I love the America that is the the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Free has in it the duty to be watchful of those in power. Totalitarianism calls for blindly following the leader.

Brave are those, who motivated by a deep and abiding love of the principles that set us apart, have the balls to stand by their convictions and fight for them. Cowards go with the path of least resistence and rather than using their head for more than a hat rack, blindly try to shout out the calm voices of reason with the raging chant of the mob.

As for this so called Patriot Act, it is unbecoming of Americans to set aside their freedoms, or the freedoms of others, in a vain attempt to buy some false security. Those who first fought for America's independence (http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.1.html#245.note2) put it well, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I am concerned with holding at bay the tyrants who would come in and destroy try to destroy America. But it may well be that while looking out for them we turn a blind eye to the tyrants within who would sell our liberties on the cheap and shrivel the concept of our, "government of the people, by the people, for the people . . ." until it perishes from the earth.

SHL Are you done? Why did you go off on that little PA attack? Did I call for a restriction of freedom? Did I say worship the goverment? No, I said if you don't like it, leave. Our country permits that.

Someone metioned that America is appparently "harming it's international reputation at the moment". But who exactly is becoming more critical? Notably, France, Germany, the new Spanish government and Arabic nations. Let's look at their tarck records, though, and see if they are really in any position to criticise us:

America has had over 200 years if uninterupted democracy.

France has not even had 100 years of uninterupted democracy.

France's first attempt at democracy resulted in a bloodbath and an Emperor

Germany has only been a uinified country for around 130 years.

In that time, Germany has starte Two World Wars (see War guilt clause: Treaty of Versialles)

Both France and Germany, at the heght of their power, used their poewr to build empires.

Spain was ruled by a dictator until the 1970's.

Even Britain was continued to be ruled undemocraticaly well into the 1800's.

There is not a singly fairly or freely elected Arabic government.

All of the Arabi governments have internal demestic policies that violate their peoples' human rights.

Now, are these really the sort of people who can go all "holier-than thou" to us? The cold war is over. We no longer need to make everyone like us for fear of an approaching 3rd World War.

(And franky, most of those countries never really liked us anyway :D )

And your point is what exactly????
None of the things that you have mentioned impact in any way on what damage is being done to the US, both now and for the future.
You have no need to make everyone like you at all.
But surely it is in your own best interests to cultivate friends instead of enemies for the future. Bull.We don't need nobody.

Someone metioned that America is appparently "harming it's international reputation at the moment". But who exactly is becoming more critical? Notably, France, Germany, the new Spanish government and Arabic nations. Let's look at their tarck records, though, and see if they are really in any position to criticise us:

America has had over 200 years if uninterupted democracy.

France has not even had 100 years of uninterupted democracy.

France's first attempt at democracy resulted in a bloodbath and an Emperor

Germany has only been a uinified country for around 130 years.

In that time, Germany has starte Two World Wars (see War guilt clause: Treaty of Versialles)

Both France and Germany, at the heght of their power, used their poewr to build empires.

Spain was ruled by a dictator until the 1970's.

Even Britain was continued to be ruled undemocraticaly well into the 1800's.

There is not a singly fairly or freely elected Arabic government.

All of the Arabi governments have internal demestic policies that violate their peoples' human rights.

Now, are these really the sort of people who can go all "holier-than thou" to us? The cold war is over. We no longer need to make everyone like us for fear of an approaching 3rd World War.

(And franky, most of those countries never really liked us anyway :D )

And your point is what exactly????
None of the things that you have mentioned impact in any way on what damage is being done to the US, both now and for the future.
You have no need to make everyone like you at all.
But surely it is in your own best interests to cultivate friends instead of enemies for the future. Bull.We don't need nobody.

Your nation, much to your distaste I'm sure, happens to share the same planet.

"Don't need nobody" is a double negative, only capable of resolution by the "do not need nobody, therefore need somebody" application of logic.

Other than that, your post is exceptionally well presented and argued.
:roll:

I don't have Saddam snugglies, the man was a horror. But what is the real agenda here? It is hardly a war on terror at this point.

SHL

i believe that the month or so that Bush spent trying to wrangle the UN gave Saddam plenty of time to get rid of anything and everything he might've had in the country at the time, or at least get his weapons mobile. The idea of weapons inspectors randomly popping in for a visit was a good idea, but the UN isn't exactly known for lightning decisiveness, and by the time Hans Blix and his buddies got there Saddam had already covered his tracks.

you have a point, nevertheless, and i always have been disappointed by the infinitely cliche, yet valid, lack of solid intelligence before the invasion. but thanks for sparing me from claims that the whole thing is all for the oil.

I'll take this last post as the one you meant since it is the most accurate.

It is exactly that disappointment that has caused me to stop and wonder what the devil is he up to. There may be good reasons that go beyond the easy target of oil. Perhaps there are issues that for valid national security reasons must be kept quiet. But the public statements are so far from even a semblance of truth that I am inclined to believe that there is some gene in the Bush family that snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.

I would like to see greater focus on the containment, if not abolishment, of terrorism before western countries become the Israel/Palestine of the next fifty years. The only way that will happen is by multilateral collaboration, not unilaterally responding in kind.

There has to be a middle ground found. One between the inherently stifled ineffectiveness of the UN, an organization rife with supporters of and appeasers to this criminal behavior, the brash impulsiveness Bush has displayed.

SHL

Without America all you guys would be Islam and worshipping Osama.

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.

So many things are wrong with that post....I have lost the energy to correct them.

Very Funny!

Now who's gonna clean up all this coffee on my keyboard?

Anybody have a kleenex?

SHL

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

What is your definition of love of country?

I love the America that is the the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Free has in it the duty to be watchful of those in power. Totalitarianism calls for blindly following the leader.

Brave are those, who motivated by a deep and abiding love of the principles that set us apart, have the balls to stand by their convictions and fight for them. Cowards go with the path of least resistence and rather than using their head for more than a hat rack, blindly try to shout out the calm voices of reason with the raging chant of the mob.

As for this so called Patriot Act, it is unbecoming of Americans to set aside their freedoms, or the freedoms of others, in a vain attempt to buy some false security. Those who first fought for America's independence (http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.1.html#245.note2) put it well, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I am concerned with holding at bay the tyrants who would come in and destroy try to destroy America. But it may well be that while looking out for them we turn a blind eye to the tyrants within who would sell our liberties on the cheap and shrivel the concept of our, "government of the people, by the people, for the people . . ." until it perishes from the earth.

SHL Are you done? Why did you go off on that little PA attack? Did I call for a restriction of freedom? Did I say worship the goverment? No, I said if you don't like it, leave. Our country permits that.

How about, "If you don't like it vote him out?"

Short enough?

SHL

Without America all you guys would be Islam and worshipping Osama.

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.

So many things are wrong with that post....I have lost the energy to correct them.

Very Funny!

Now who's gonna clean up all this coffee on my keyboard?

Anybody have a kleenex?

SHL

I'll tell you what the US deserves... *rolls up newspaper*

:twisted:

I'll tell you what the US deserves... *rolls up newspaper*

:twisted:

Reduce that to many USAians, and I will get my baseball bat and join you... :D

That was a mildly bizzare article. The author documented very well all of America's wrongs and mentioned everything we do wrong, but somehow expects everybody to give America more love and respect. hmm.

I think it was sarcasim, but I'm not completely sure. Given the aggresive American-baiting tone of Ilham's other posts, I found it very hard to credit that this was meant as anything other than the same old "Let's Bash America Because All The Cool Kids Are Doing It" vein.


Obviously, because the vast majority of people in America don't really give a crap what goes on in Washington as long as they have something to eat and a place to live, we have a representative government so the entire population doesn't have to decide on the country's actions. But that republican structure (i.e. a republic, not neccessarily the political party) also means that the government's actions are determined directly by the general will of the assembly of our government. However, it's not as if government officials never leave their jobs, they go home and are influenced by the general will of the public, which affects their decisions while they are at work.

But when they go home, do they go to the average house with the average family and get an accurate picture of the average will and life? I think not. Career politicians tend to start out priveledged and maintain that status throughout their lives. They live in the rarified and abstract environment of Washington where all information comes with a spin. While they claim to sympathize and represent their consitutencies, rarely if ever do they actually experience the daily lives and concerns of them. In the end, their mostly influenced by their insulated circle of people who share similar beliefs and goals and the occasional activist who has the time to actually try and batter at their ivory tower. Most people, like you said, are too busy working, raising a family, figuring out where dinner's coming from and trying to see to their own to take the time to really affect their leader's actions or even get truly informed on the issues. This is the greatest threat to US society, an uninformed populace and there's enough blame to go around. In order to preserve the freedoms and rights that we cherish, we as citizens must make the time to get informed and demand our government be accountable to us. However, those in control know that it is easier to maintain power over a frazzled, harried and, ultimately, ignorate public, so they do all in their power to dissuade the populace from educating itself. As these two attractors become more focused, US society swings around widely and, if we're not careful, will someday soon be shot out into the void and completely irretrievable.


When we started our invasion of Afghanistan, and later of Iraq, most of America was in favor of military action, or else the President, having an election upcoming, would have been discouraged enough to not engage his forces and would have saved his popularity ratings.

But, as we are learning now, the reason they were in favor of military action was because they were willfully misinformed by a government that is supposed to promote trust, but instead promotes control. I'm not saying it's completely the government's fault, becase it is the duty of every American who actually cares about the future of their country and the world to seek out correct information and demand sufficient justification for governmental actions. We have always been much to quick as a society to embrace the easy, quick version of "the truth" because we have so much else on our plates that the amount of time it takes to unravel political spin is daunting and overwhelming. If we want to see not only our country, but the very essence of our way of life survive, however, we must be willing to make that time and find those answers, no matter how uncomfortable or upsetting they may be. We are as guilty for believing the spin as the government is for using it and a price must be paid by all of us for this.


However, American culture is not entirely practical, and especially in this day and age where everything is instantaneous (i sound old and wizened here), the general American mindset is that victory should be instantaneous too.

Again, though, this is part and parcle with the duping of society. We believe things should be instantaneous because we're told they should be and we like the sound of that. There's complicity on both sides of the equation. We were told in a distant, abstract way that both the War on Terror and the invasion of Iraq would be long, hard slogs, but at the very same time we are constantly told that we not only possess the best military in the world, but that we have God on our side as well. To the Average Joe American, who's raising 2.5 kids, making mortgage and car payments, wondering how high next month's electricity bill will be and possibly, in this age of layoffs/outsourcing/downsizing, looking for a job, it's much easier to believe the second than try and comprehend the first. The leaders themselves either don't know the ramifications and extent of their actions (how much will this war cost, how long will we have to be there, how high will the death toll rise, etc.) or are willing to gloss over them with a pat on the head and a mutter of "There, there, we're big and strong and everything will be fine...eventually."


The media seems to think that we should've gotten Osama bin Laden about a week after 9/11, and is equally quick to point out each and every casualty in Iraq while conveniently ignoring the fact that we are at war, and, shocking as it may seem, people have a tendency to die in wars. *snort*

But, officially, we're not at war. No war has been declared and the last thing that even resembled a declaration of war ended last May with a photo op on an aircraft carrier and a banner that said, "Mission Accomplished." This doublespeak is beginning to make people wonder exactly what's going on and why, when we were told that we were liberating and freeing and securing, we are now abusing, imprisoning and destabilizing and, most importantly, dying.


if we Americans want to get any respect, we should have some for our own government first.

I have tremendous respect for our government and it is because of this respect for our government that by exercising my duty and my right to question the administration that currently controls it. The Bush administration is not "the government of the United States of America," when they are gone, our government will still exist and for as long as our country stands, our government will still exist. If an administration is being true to the spirit and ideals of the US Constitution, which is a much more accurate representation of our government than any passing political force, then that administration should have no fear of being held accountable for it's actions. This administration has shown from day one a distinct desire to avoid exactly that type of accountability. They have turned one of the hallmarks of our society, the right to freely question the current ruling administration and demand they be responsible with our money, our lives and our honor, into a parriah. This blocking action alone, to my way of thinking, should be enough to have them tarred and feathered and sent out of town on a rail. The fact that they have now sullied our reputation and perverted the very funamental values of a great and noble nation is simply the outward symptom of the rotten core. Not our government, which I will believe in until the day I die, but this administration.


Before we reflexively point at Bush whenever anything goes wrong, we should consider the hellish, logistical mess that is reality, and rather than bash him for not getting everything done perfectly we should have respect for the immense task it is to be the commander-in-chief of the most powerful standing army on the planet.

But the problem is that with that command comes the responsibility of one's actions. As the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility. It must, otherwise the ruler is little better than a tyrant or a petty, fascist dictator, willing to squander the honor and lives at his command to suit whatever personal agenda he's advancing. No leader is capable of perfection. Humanity is prone to mistakes, because that's one of the most powerful ways we learn. However, a good leader is able to be humble about those mistakes, acknowledge them, apologize for them and then seek to rectify the situation as fast as possible. This administration does none of these things because they perceve them as being "weak" or "anti-American". Or, more sinisterly, they choose not to admit to mistakes because they do not consider them to be for the sole reason that, as they are the ones doing them, they must be right. Either way, it smacks of a damaged and flawed leadership that is out of touch with both the reality of the world and the ideals of the country which gave them a chance to exercise their power in the first place.

I agree that being President of an extremely powerful country (which I believe the US is, regardless of what others on this board might think) and Commander in Chief of a hideously effective and large military is a rough job. But that's what he signed on for and, frankly, if it's too much for him to take critisim when he's obviously wrong (or even when he's right, for that matter), then I would give him the same advice that I would give anyone doing a job that is far above their abilities: quit. If the Bush administration is truly acting in the U.S.'s best interests, and not for their personal gain, then their actions should be able to withstand the scrutiny of the people they are elected to serve (and they are elected to serve us, not the other way around). If they have something to hide or have betrayed the very values which this country was built on, then that is exactly why we must be incredibly focused and judgemental of their actions, in order to root out the cancer and have it removed before it kills the body of state.

EDIT: I think I spelled "fascist" wrong. :cry:

Just wanted to say : well said!! And I agree 100%.

There's a saying that those who are willing to criticize their country are actually more loving of it than those who blindly support it There is also a saying that Those who criticze need to live somewhere else.

What is your definition of love of country?

I love the America that is the the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Free has in it the duty to be watchful of those in power. Totalitarianism calls for blindly following the leader.

Brave are those, who motivated by a deep and abiding love of the principles that set us apart, have the balls to stand by their convictions and fight for them. Cowards go with the path of least resistence and rather than using their head for more than a hat rack, blindly try to shout out the calm voices of reason with the raging chant of the mob.

As for this so called Patriot Act, it is unbecoming of Americans to set aside their freedoms, or the freedoms of others, in a vain attempt to buy some false security. Those who first fought for America's independence (http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.1.html#245.note2) put it well, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I am concerned with holding at bay the tyrants who would come in and destroy try to destroy America. But it may well be that while looking out for them we turn a blind eye to the tyrants within who would sell our liberties on the cheap and shrivel the concept of our, "government of the people, by the people, for the people . . ." until it perishes from the earth.

SHL Are you done? Why did you go off on that little PA attack? Did I call for a restriction of freedom? Did I say worship the goverment? No, I said if you don't like it, leave. Our country permits that.

How about, "If you don't like it vote him out?"

Short enough?

SHL Who said I didn't like Bush? Fogging the issue may gain you points in the circle of friends you like to keep but it don't get far elseware.

Are you done? Why did you go off on that little PA attack? Did I call for a restriction of freedom? Did I say worship the goverment? No, I said if you don't like it, leave. Our country permits that.

Blah, screw that. What is this mentality of "If you don't like it, leave," or "If the going gets tough, just give up and go elsewhere?" What ever happened to, "If you don't like it, work for change and respect the ideals of your society?" I don't approve of what this administration is doing, but far from making me want to leave my Nation, which I hold near and dear to my heart, it makes me want to fight to protect her and that for which she stands.

This whole attitude of giving up or fleeing in the face of hardship is more a threat to the institution of marriage than allowing Joe and Jim to tie the knot.

I'll tell you what the US deserves... *rolls up newspaper*

:twisted: Well well well. Look at what we got here *Aims shotgun.*

I'll tell you what the US deserves... *rolls up newspaper*

:twisted: Well well well. Look at what we got here *Aims shotgun.*

Ever so mature and rational and arguement.

"There are only two means by which men can deal with one another: guns or logic. Force or persuasion. Those who know that they cannot win by means of logic, have always resorted to guns."---Ayn Rand.

Have a geeky quote:

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Isaac Asimov, Salvor Hardin in "Foundation"

Collaboration:
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Isaac Asimov, Salvor Hardin in "Foundation"

Is that what u think of the Patriots from the American War of Independance?

I'll tell you what the US deserves... *rolls up newspaper*

:twisted: Well well well. Look at what we got here *Aims shotgun.*

Ever so mature and rational and arguement.

"There are only two means by which men can deal with one another: guns or logic. Force or persuasion. Those who know that they cannot win by means of logic, have always resorted to guns."---Ayn Rand.

From Sun Tzu's Art Of War(edited and annotated sayings,1995): "War is the result of the failure of diplomacy"

So many things are wrong with that post....I have lost the energy to correct them.

For starters,you could point out the abusive ad hominem in the following line:

NOt really maybe but still America isnt evil you guys just dont like how its the strognest country kind alike Britain a few hundred years ago.