NationStates Jolt Archive

The US can do what it likes, but for as long as their double-standards with Israel exist, the hatred towards them will remain. And as long as the Jewish lobby has a hold of the vote with their countless millions of support, there will never be a decent, humane American governement. That is the conclusion of any politically-aware person with their eyes open.

The US gives the most foreign aid to an essentially-apartheid state (Israel) and a dictatorship nearly as brutal as Saddam's regime (Egypt). How is this justified?

I am appalled and distugsted by the US' tacit support of Israel. Day in, day out they slaughter civlilans and the IDF/army make up lies about the situations. The Palestineans have begged for international monitors but the US keeps vetoing any vote for them (along with ANY resolution critical of Israel), whilst the vast majority of the UN members support these resolutions (like a couple hundred to 5-10 on average)!

The recent slaughter of protestors (coincidentally happened the same day the US sent their "congratulations" to that wedding party) really shows how aligned these two goverments are...

http://www.dailycamera.com/bdc/middle_east/article/0,1713,BDC_10836_2900074,00.html

But back to the topic, what's the US govt's PR machine offical line of support for these two nations? I know they talk about Israel needing to defend itself (when it's clearly the Palestineans that need defending) but what about Egypt?!

Let's see, hrmm. The Middle East was dominated by hostile, socialist Soviet client states. The USA, needing an ally in this vitally important region, and a bulwark against the advancement of the Soviets, began to support Israel. The Middle East is now dominated by the same hostile client-states. The USA, needing an ally more reliable than Saudi Arabia (as if they ever were such) supports the country with interests most amicable to our goals. Therefore, the USA supports Israel.

Now stop your wanking.

well I am one of those anti foreign aid types but israels right to exist is constantly threatened in fact recent polls taken of the nations around the world showed only three support israe! Supporting them isn't such a bad thing although I'd prefer we didn't either because frankly they can defend themselves if they are ever attacked etc. we will and should help.

I am saddened every time I see the US President denounce action israel has taken to defend itself :(

I am saddened every time I see the US President denounce action israel has taken to defend itself :(
That's because denouncing anything Israel does is currently in vogue with the neo-hippy scumbags. That will in turn win him votes and maybe ease criticism a bit. It's good politicing. Secretly, of course, Israel's probably getting a wink. The Israelis understand the nature of the game quite well, and undoubtedly expects such actions.

well I am one of those anti foreign aid types but israels right to exist is constantly threatened in fact recent polls taken of the nations around the world showed only three support israe! Supporting them isn't such a bad thing although I'd prefer we didn't either because frankly they can defend themselves if they are ever attacked etc. we will and should help.

I am saddened every time I see the US President denounce action israel has taken to defend itself :(

And I am saddened when unarmed Palestinian protestors are gunned down in the streets, or when thousands of innocent civilians have their homes bulldozed.

There is a balance.

And as long as the Jewish lobby has a hold of the vote with their countless millions of support, there will never be a decent, humane American governement. That is the conclusion of any politically-aware person with their eyes open.

Um... why? :roll:

Self_righteous_tuna: What about Egypt?

There's a difference between *siding* with Israel and giving more foreign aid to them than ANY other single country on this planet and condoning the daily slaughter of civilians, you right-wing neo-scumbag. There are third-world countries that deserve that money way more than those bastards do.

Ever heard of a happy medium?

Josh Collins: "Defending itself"? More euphimisms for the slaughter of innocent civilians. Does shooting missiles into a bunch of protesters count as "defending" itself? Does shooting a missile into an apartment block whilst people are sleeping count as "defending" itself? Does a tank shooting shells into children count as "defending" itself? No other government in the entire world gets away with what they do in terms of killing people of another race (civil wars do not count here).

Tuna has summed it up when it comes to those so-called denoucements. Israel knows what it can do and will get away with. It does it with the US govt's support, and these "dencouncements" are mere verbal slaps on the wrist to appease people like yourself who actually believe the US govt is trying to be fair. Another Sep 11 is going to happen when we least expect it. Just hope all these conservative governments lose in the coming year (a la Spain).

What frustrates me is that if we EVER have a World War 3, I guarantee Israel will be the root cause when it all could have been avoided.

You know, anti-Semitism is still pretty powerful in Europe. Hell, before the Holocaust you had the Russian Pogroms. France is anti-Semitic. Spain has a history of anti-Semitism (look at the inquisition). Such famous figures as Martin Luther even hated the Jews at one point.

My point is this: Africa doesn't like the Jews. Asia doesn't like the Jews. Europe doesn't like the Jews. So if they did get UN monitors in, what do you think they would see? What they wanted to see. Those nations are motivated by their dislike of Israel - a state we all created. Would you let someone into your grandmother's house if you knew that person was going to break her hip? Eh, I don't think so.

And if you think the US is the only one that votes according to its national policy or public opinion, you are lost in space.

Akilliam:
I love that argument. Any criticism of Israel and these entire continents are being labelled as "anti-semetic". These countries have been criticising the government's actions, not the country. Ever wondered why the majoirty of nations criticise Israel? Maybe they're actually doing something wrong? There's a difference between getting some neutral monitors to protect the civilian Palestinian population and the destruction of Israel itself!
Those nations are motivated by their dislike of Israel - a state we all created."
".. motivated by their dislike of Israel"?! Are you serious? Most of their governments still support Israel more than the Palestineans. They're just a bit more balanced than the US in the face of such senseless murder from one of the world's most well-equipped armies.

Israel was created for a number of reasons (some fair, some downright wrong) with thanks to great timing:
-from the guilt of the Holocaust
-from a number of its so-called allies not wanting to take the Jews into their lands
-based on a very dubious religous claim that they are the "chosen" people. Hey, maybe I should start a cult and claim the US as my land from thousands of years before the Inidians? And then I can 'settle' on any additional land that I couldn't steal at time of creation?
-out of British negligence who got out before finishing their promise of partitioning the then-Palestine.
Would you let someone into your grandmother's house if you knew that person was going to break her hip? Eh, I don't think so."
I know why *Israel* won't let the monitors in (ie they're doing most of the killing and don't want anyone else to see it first-hand), but why the States? This isn't the US' grandmother's house we're talking about (to keep with your analogy), it's Israel's "house".

Self_righteous_tuna: What about Egypt?

There's a difference between *siding* with Israel and giving more foreign aid to them than ANY other single country on this planet and condoning the daily slaughter of civilians, you right-wing neo-scumbag. There are third-world countries that deserve that money way more than those bastards do.

Haha, I see that the wanking comment got to you, friend. Just don't let the white stuff get on me. Foreign aid is based on geopolitical need, not some stupid sense of altruism. Get a brain.

Blah blah blah Israel is evil blah blah, I like to wank to thoughts of my own moral superiority and political rightness.

I don't give a damn what people such as yourself say, you and your ilk will contnue to be insignificant whiners while people lacking your incredible naïveté and idiocy get on with the business of life.

As for the unfortunate collateral damage incurred during Israeli self-defense actions, it is regrettable. However, such things will always happen in war. Negotiation other than the sword does not work with terrorists or any other bullies, just think back to your school days.

Anyhow, Dinovski, I was not specifically referring to you when I said "neo-hippy liberal scumbags", I was simply referring to those scumbags who constantly deride Bush's policies solely because Bush originated them.

There is a lot of c**p going on in the middle east, that we can all agree on, as well as the fact that the USA has been supporting Israel for a long time (pretty much since Israel's creation, when Israel was attacked by 5 countries at once, plus the Palestinians. It was the help that the US gave Israel that kept Israel alive to see in 1949. Since Israel returns the favour as it can, the US keeps supporting Israel.

I think that the Palestinians are annoyed so much simply because Palestine was divided in 1947 into Arab and Jewish zones, which were to become two neighbouring nations; when they wanted all the land for themselves. Perhaps the Palestinians would have preferred Adolf Hitler's idea of removing all surviving Jews to Madagascar.

You know, anti-Semitism is still pretty powerful in Europe. Hell, before the Holocaust you had the Russian Pogroms. France is anti-Semitic. Spain has a history of anti-Semitism (look at the inquisition). Such famous figures as Martin Luther even hated the Jews at one point.

My point is this: Africa doesn't like the Jews. Asia doesn't like the Jews. Europe doesn't like the Jews. So if they did get UN monitors in, what do you think they would see? What they wanted to see. Those nations are motivated by their dislike of Israel - a state we all created. Would you let someone into your grandmother's house if you knew that person was going to break her hip? Eh, I don't think so.

And if you think the US is the only one that votes according to its national policy or public opinion, you are lost in space.

Is this how your typical young American thinks of how Europeans and other people think of Israel and the Jews? Maybe you should stop watching Fox 'news', quit reading the bible and get your head out of your arse!

France isn't anti-semetic. Au contraire. Some 700.000 Jews live in France, and they're not about to leave. It's true that there are Muslim youth being anti-semetic, even Jewish graves have been violated (which is a horrible act). But that definitely doesn't reflect French society. Or European society.
You say Spain is anti-semetic because of the Inquisition? Do you live in a backward Amish community, cause that's over half a millenia ago! Martin Luther (I'm surprised you have even heard of him) also lived at that time. Who the hell cares about how the world was then. Even tacitus spoke negatively of the Jews, so what, thats 2 millenia ago.

If Europe is supposed to be anti-semetic, because it was 500 years ago, you're also anti-semetic including all white Americans, cause your great-grand families were still living here. You twat. By your logic I could even accuse the USA of anti-semitism, for failing to bomb the hell out of the German 'Konzentrationslager'. Go back to school...

You get even better when you accuse whole continents with billions of people to be anti-semetic...you're nothing but a sorry example of human failure, not being able to grasp just even a tiny spec of reality. Now go back and read your Left Behind crap...

Simple answer: Israel is our "Outpost of Democracy" in the Middle East and we pay Egypt to allow Israel to stay around. That and half Egypts population (a few tens of millions) would die if we stopped giving them food aid.

Complicated answer: It'd take too long and it's too late.

I'll be honest - Israel is one of those situations which is utterly hilarious, if you think about it. Take away the religion, and there's really no argument. It's just a bunch of egotists on both sides who have to have this "Holy Land", and they won't stop until they have it. Children, really. The Israelites have other nations to go to - the entire world isn't one big ball of Anti-Semitism, despite what some people seem to claim. And the Palestiniens have almost an unlimited amount of options, living right in the middle of their cultural sector. So, in my opinion, let the smart ones move away, and let the stupid ones duke it out alone, until a victory is declared. Let's wash our hands of this affair, and get back to running America. Hell looks like it needs it.

That is the conclusion of any politically-aware person with their eyes open.If you were at all politically or historically aware, you would know how ridiculous this statement is.

Day in, day out they slaughter civlilans and the IDF/army make up lies about the situations. If you define terrorists of a sovereign nation "civilians", I'll give you this one.

...really shows how aligned these two goverments are... Isreal, as a democratic nation (even if you don't like its brand of democracy), is one of the few lights of freedom in an otherwise rights-barren side of the planet.

But back to the topic, what's the US govt's PR machine offical line of support for these two nations? I know they talk about Israel needing to defend itself (when it's clearly the Palestineans that need defending) but what about Egypt?!Egypt has always played a little nicer with the US than most other countries in that part of the world. This allows us to treat them a little better as well. I don't think the US has to worry too much about the ability of Isreal to defend itself. It has a pretty unblemished record in that regard.

Day in, day out they slaughter civlilans and the IDF/army make up lies about the situations. If you define terrorists of a sovereign nation "civilians", I'll give you this one..

If you define unarmed peace protesters as, or just about anyone else who is killed by the IDF as 'terrorists' I'll let you have that one.


...really shows how aligned these two goverments are... Isreal, as a democratic nation (even if you don't like its brand of democracy), is one of the few lights of freedom in an otherwise rights-barren side of the planet.

South Africa under apartheid was classed as a democracy, was that country a 'light of freedom' too?
Rights barren? like the right to return of refugees? the right of farmers who have lost their land due to the wall/settlements?.....

The situation is so incredibly complex that I truly believe only a small minority understand the full scope of it. One cannot make rational or accurate statements on the subject unless they have studied the whole history of it.

That aside, I don't think any country (including the US) other than Israel would object to a withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories. The continuous occupation of a people as Israel has perpetrated for over half a century is NOT the way to prevent terrorism; it only breeds it. The return to the internationally recognised borders would be the biggest step for Israel to make, with the removal of illegal settlements a close second. After that it would be hard to see how terrorists could go on with any kind of widespread support from the Palestinian people. In conflicts such as these - as the British learned with Northern Ireland - the best way towards peace is to pull the carpet from under the terrorists' feet and meet the demands of the disenchanted people. With a free Palestinian state (consisting of the Gaza strip and West Bank), the creation of a truly operational Palestinian security force (police, intelligence services, etc.) with which to combat terrorists inside the country would also be possible (a frequent, rather ludicrous demand of the Palestinian Authority made by the Israeli government - the resources simply don't exist presently).

The US gives Israel more aid than to any other state for two simple reasons

1)It makes good sense- Israel is the only reliable ally for the US in the MidEast- and maybe in the world as well
2) It also makes good cents.

Israel is the only US aid recipient who earns back most, if not all, of what they are given.

Israel is among the top five suppliers of the high tech military hardware to the US.

All of the US aid to Israel is being spent in the US itself.

Joint US-Israeli development programms are simply countless, and in most of them it is Israel that provides the research.

Israel shares their newest military technologies with the US for free- and many of them are superior to the US's own equivalents, like the Arrow is superior to the US Patriot.

Israel assists the US in creating the ultimate anti-missile defense weapon- the THEL laser.

Israel is the second largest high-tech and software producing ground after the Silicon valley. Most of the technologies and software end up at the US market.

Every modern laptop usesing processor, a technology for which was developed in Israel. Every time you use files with formats such as .gif or .zip you use Israeli software. Instant message programms were invented in Israel, as well as firewalls.

Israel has developed more technology for counter-terrorism than any other country in the world- including state of the art identification software that can tell apart even identical twins.

Israel is the third in the world by the number of companies listed on the NASDAQ- after US and Canada.

Quite a worthwhile investment, me thinks.

Israel is a reliable ally?
How have they helped us?
How have they advanced our interests?
How are we better off carrying Israel and the widespread resentment associated with them, than if we just cut them loose?

Israel is a reliable ally?
How have they helped us?
How have they advanced our interests?
How are we better off carrying Israel and the widespread resentment associated with them, than if we just cut them loose?

See that post above your own? Read it.

You know Womb, we all take pride in our country's accomplishments...

But I'm not quite sure as to the point in this regard. It seems that you are stating that the US government is charging it's taxpayers in order to outsource high-value technology jobs to Israel.

Or are you suggesting that Americans couldn't have come up with decent compression algorithm on their own? Even though it took Welsh (an American) to improve the works of Lempel and Ziv to turn it into a truly useable technology?

A good investment? Or just a really, really expensive way to take investment dollars away from the Americans who provided their government with those funds? Besides, it would only count as an investment if the US got some material returns from that investment. Perhaps the patent-holders of Israeli technology should defer some of their revenues to the US government as compensation.....

:wink:

Which is to say - I respect your pride in your countryman's accomplishments, but I'm not sure that it has a direct relevance to the costs of support to the US taxpayers.

-Z-

You know Womb, we all take pride in our country's accomplishments...

But I'm not quite sure as to the point in this regard. It seems that you are stating that the US government is charging it's taxpayers in order to outsource high-value technology jobs to Israel.
On the contrary. They are turning a potential competitor into a companion. Otherwise they would have to compete against these same technologies on the market. And many of the Israeli researchers eventually go to work to the US and pay taxes to US government. And many Israeli start ups, with all patented inventions, are being sold to the US like the legendary Mirabilis.



Or are you suggesting that Americans couldn't have come up with decent compression algorithm on their own? Even though it took Welsh (an American) to improve the works of Lempel and Ziv to turn it into a truly useable technology?
They can. The question is whether they can do it as fast and as cheap.

BTW, did you notice a certain pattern in US weapons development? They adopt an "all American", but bugged design, then spend lots and lots of money on improvement (usually done by foreigners). M14, M16, the Abrams tank, the Stryker as the most recent example...


A good investment? Or just a really, really expensive way to take investment dollars away from the Americans who provided their government with those funds? Besides, it would only count as an investment if the US got some material returns from that investment. Perhaps the patent-holders of Israeli technology should defer some of their revenues to the US government as compensation.....

:wink:
Like I said, the US gets it too. They receive free license for producing all of those. Israel often buys weapons of their own design, like the Tavor rifle, from US manufacturers. Not to mention that the US aid, being spent on buying US weaponry, maintains lots of jobs in the US arms industry.

The truth is, Egypt and Israel beat us in a game of high stakes poker. We're paying off the pot. Really has nothing to do with foreign aid.

The alliances with Israel and Egypt are based on the rather flawed principle that my enemies enemies are my friends (the same idea that gave loads of arms to what is now Al-queda). As mentioned before the Middle East was a very Soviet/British dominated area, so the U.S. needed allies (and it still does). Eygpt was handly within bomber range of major soviet oil production areas. I don't except the idea that the support for Israel comes from some secret 'Jewish lobby,' it's just power politics.

As to the point of Israel defending itself, it's approach is clearly idiotic (wether born out of a genuine desire to stop terror or just to grab land). Most psycologists agree that suicide terrorism is a result of community pressure not ignorance or fanaticism. It is seen as a demi-patriotic duty to attack people occuyping your territory (which is 9 times out of 10 the issue in hand). Thus occupying more territory or attacking more communities is generally the worst thing to do. Following on from this is that terrorism must stop before the Israelis withdraw. This is blatantly never going to happen. Because of Israel's occupation, there is overwhelming support for the terrorists. Thus while they complain about Arafat, it is they who turned him into such an icon.

As to this 'security barrier,' if the Americans were able to smmugle a fair number of people through a heavily defended barrier built by a super power (i.e. Berlin wall), what use is a wall against terrorists?

IMO at least Egypt is more progressive than Israel. Nothing can get done in that area as long as Sharon is in power; I get the feeling that his solution would kinda sound like "screw diplomacy w/the Palestinians; it never worked then so why now? ATTACK!"

Clicky (http://www.markfiore.com/animation/settlers.html)

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

I have given forth on my opinion before on one chance of ending the cycle of death in the Middle East but I'm gonna do it again.
Only the US has the power to at least start a real peace process. What it has always lacked is the will. If the US, just for once, got really tough with both Israel and the Palestinians, people would have to take notice and start thinking outside the revenge envelope. Now obviously what I'm going to say is outlandishly simplified but it's understandable I think.
Suppose the US told (with emphasis on told) Israel and the Palestinian authorities that it is going to do a quick 'Marshall Plan' IE, give them say, $10 billion each, staged on productivity of results. Then with its European allies decides on a proper, fair 'carve-up' of land. It tells Israel that it will station a military unit to guarantee its defence (the US being the only foreign power it would trust), and that Europe will station a military unit in Palestine (the Europeans being the only foreign power(s) it trusts.
Neither Israel nor whatever decent Palestinian authority that such an agreement would throw up would need to worry about its security and neither can afford to refuse the money.
It might take years for all this to came about once begun but all the old arguments and suspicions would erode. The Europeans would quite easily agree to a plan, they would welcome the renewed status it gave them in the area. What is required is the hard-nosed will of the US. The whole area would feel less threatened so oil wouldn't be a problem, and the US and Europe would save $billions in the long term and bring peace and save possibly hundreds of thousands of lives. Surely if the US can go into Afghanistan and Iraq at the cost of who knows how many lives and again, $billions, it could make what would be a far less expensive hard shove into the Israeli and Palestine area? And the world would be behind it too.

Akilliam:
I love that argument. Any criticism of Israel and these entire continents are being labelled as "anti-semetic". These countries have been criticising the government's actions, not the country. Ever wondered why the majoirty of nations criticise Israel? Maybe they're actually doing something wrong? There's a difference between getting some neutral monitors to protect the civilian Palestinian population and the destruction of Israel itself!


So there is no anti-Semitism? Europe has had a long history of anti-Semitism, dating - to some extent - all the way back to Rome. Hell, right after the Great War ended many Germans were already blaming the jews. Do I need to remind you of krystal nacht? It would be absurd to claim that once Germany surrenderd, all traces of anti-Semitism ended right on the spot. And that's just Germany. Russia has had political standings against Jews. So has France. So has Spain.

Now you can say that the nations in question are just attacking the Israeli government. I find it hard to believe that in just sixty years all those centuries of anti-Semitic feelings could just disappear. I'm not saying those nations are out to destroy Israel, but I am saying that their motivations - whether they know it or not - aren't just black and white.

I'll make my point another way: I was raised in the South. Even to this day, feelings toward Blacks can be harsh to say the least. From time to time I catch myself thinking things like 'I've never seen a black guy mow his yard', things along those lines. It's wrong, it's absurd. Did I set out to convince myself that Blacks actually don't tend to their business? No. I was born into an environment where such feelings are present and, unfortunately, I have picked some up along the way.

Now it is safe to assume that leaders of nations encounter similar situations. Am I saying that Jacques Chirac or Gehard Schroeder or Vladimir Putin are anti-Semites? Not really. However, their choices could be motivated by some aspect of their life that they have little awareness of. Can I prove it? No! But I can think it.

Now another issue is the UN itself. We all know it has a long proud history of protecting Israel from destruction dating all the way back. Don't you remember when the UN jumped into the 1948 war? Oh, that's right, they didn't! And then all the other wars started by Arab nations... oh, the UN didn't jump to Israel's aid there either! Goodness gracious! It is my opinion that Israel can not trust the International Community [spit] for their future welfare. That's the way it is, sad but true.

Has Israel done wrong? Yes. Have they done things that are reprehensible? Absolutely. But at the same time the International Community has done things reprehensible to the Jewish people. I guess neither side is right, but it can come down to this: The Jews have suffered at the hands of nations since the world was young. The world has scorned them, time and time again. It's no wonder Israel in turn scorns the world. Wouldn't you? If you got your ass kicked by a Babylonian, a Persian, a Greek, a Roman, a Spaniard, a Russian, and then a German, wouldn't you eventually say 'piss off!' when they tried to jump into your affairs?

At least, that's how I see it.

Akilliam:
I love that argument. Any criticism of Israel and these entire continents are being labelled as "anti-semetic". These countries have been criticising the government's actions, not the country. Ever wondered why the majoirty of nations criticise Israel? Maybe they're actually doing something wrong? There's a difference between getting some neutral monitors to protect the civilian Palestinian population and the destruction of Israel itself!


So there is no anti-Semitism? Europe has had a long history of anti-Semitism, dating - to some extent - all the way back to Rome. Hell, right after the Great War ended many Germans were already blaming the jews. Do I need to remind you of krystal nacht? It would be absurd to claim that once Germany surrenderd, all traces of anti-Semitism ended right on the spot. And that's just Germany. Russia has had political standings against Jews. So has France. So has Spain.

Now you can say that the nations in question are just attacking the Israeli government. I find it hard to believe that in just sixty years all those centuries of anti-Semitic feelings could just disappear. I'm not saying those nations are out to destroy Israel, but I am saying that their motivations - whether they know it or not - aren't just black and white.

I'll make my point another way: I was raised in the South. Even to this day, feelings toward Blacks can be harsh to say the least. From time to time I catch myself thinking things like 'I've never seen a black guy mow his yard', things along those lines. It's wrong, it's absurd. Did I set out to convince myself that Blacks actually don't tend to their business? No. I was born into an environment where such feelings are present and, unfortunately, I have picked some up along the way.

Now it is safe to assume that leaders of nations encounter similar situations. Am I saying that Jacques Chirac or Gehard Schroeder or Vladimir Putin are anti-Semites? Not really. However, their choices could be motivated by some aspect of their life that they have little awareness of. Can I prove it? No! But I can think it.

Now another issue is the UN itself. We all know it has a long proud history of protecting Israel from destruction dating all the way back. Don't you remember when the UN jumped into the 1948 war? Oh, that's right, they didn't! And then all the other wars started by Arab nations... oh, the UN didn't jump to Israel's aid there either! Goodness gracious! It is my opinion that Israel can not trust the International Community [spit] for their future welfare. That's the way it is, sad but true.

Has Israel done wrong? Yes. Have they done things that are reprehensible? Absolutely. But at the same time the International Community has done things reprehensible to the Jewish people. I guess neither side is right, but it can come down to this: The Jews have suffered at the hands of nations since the world was young. The world has scorned them, time and time again. It's no wonder Israel in turn scorns the world. Wouldn't you? If you got your ass kicked by a Babylonian, a Persian, a Greek, a Roman, a Spaniard, a Russian, and then a German, wouldn't you eventually say 'piss off!' when they tried to jump into your affairs?

At least, that's how I see it.
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

I agree. But don't leave out American anti-Semitism. Up until the sixties Jews were excluded from such things as Golf courses, many businesses etc. I am not comparing the attrocious treatment of Jews in some countries with that of America but Jew-hating is growing in America too.
Have look around this site. My God, many Americans subscribe to the theory that Israelis are responsible for 9/11.

Akilliam:
I love that argument. Any criticism of Israel and these entire continents are being labelled as "anti-semetic". These countries have been criticising the government's actions, not the country. Ever wondered why the majoirty of nations criticise Israel? Maybe they're actually doing something wrong? There's a difference between getting some neutral monitors to protect the civilian Palestinian population and the destruction of Israel itself!


So there is no anti-Semitism? Europe has had a long history of anti-Semitism, dating - to some extent - all the way back to Rome. Hell, right after the Great War ended many Germans were already blaming the jews. Do I need to remind you of krystal nacht? It would be absurd to claim that once Germany surrenderd, all traces of anti-Semitism ended right on the spot. And that's just Germany. Russia has had political standings against Jews. So has France. So has Spain.

Now you can say that the nations in question are just attacking the Israeli government. I find it hard to believe that in just sixty years all those centuries of anti-Semitic feelings could just disappear. I'm not saying those nations are out to destroy Israel, but I am saying that their motivations - whether they know it or not - aren't just black and white.

I'll make my point another way: I was raised in the South. Even to this day, feelings toward Blacks can be harsh to say the least. From time to time I catch myself thinking things like 'I've never seen a black guy mow his yard', things along those lines. It's wrong, it's absurd. Did I set out to convince myself that Blacks actually don't tend to their business? No. I was born into an environment where such feelings are present and, unfortunately, I have picked some up along the way.

Now it is safe to assume that leaders of nations encounter similar situations. Am I saying that Jacques Chirac or Gehard Schroeder or Vladimir Putin are anti-Semites? Not really. However, their choices could be motivated by some aspect of their life that they have little awareness of. Can I prove it? No! But I can think it.

Now another issue is the UN itself. We all know it has a long proud history of protecting Israel from destruction dating all the way back. Don't you remember when the UN jumped into the 1948 war? Oh, that's right, they didn't! And then all the other wars started by Arab nations... oh, the UN didn't jump to Israel's aid there either! Goodness gracious! It is my opinion that Israel can not trust the International Community [spit] for their future welfare. That's the way it is, sad but true.

Has Israel done wrong? Yes. Have they done things that are reprehensible? Absolutely. But at the same time the International Community has done things reprehensible to the Jewish people. I guess neither side is right, but it can come down to this: The Jews have suffered at the hands of nations since the world was young. The world has scorned them, time and time again. It's no wonder Israel in turn scorns the world. Wouldn't you? If you got your ass kicked by a Babylonian, a Persian, a Greek, a Roman, a Spaniard, a Russian, and then a German, wouldn't you eventually say 'piss off!' when they tried to jump into your affairs?

At least, that's how I see it.
http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~jeff/earthgifs/world.gif

I agree. But don't leave out American anti-Semitism. Up until the sixties Jews were excluded from such things as Golf courses, many businesses etc. I am not comparing the attrocious treatment of Jews in some countries with that of America but Jew-hating is growing in America too.
Have look around this site. My God, many Americans subscribe to the theory that Israelis are responsible for 9/11.

IMO at least Egypt is more progressive than Israel.

In what context? In terms of democracy, freedom of speech, and human rights, Israel seems to be heads and tails above Egypt. Exactly what progressive issues are you looking at?

Nothing can get done in that area as long as Sharon is in power; I get the feeling that his solution would kinda sound like "screw diplomacy w/the Palestinians; it never worked then so why now? ATTACK!"

That's really not very accurate. Sharon is beecoming increasingly difficult to pigeonhole. He's certainly not a quintessential Israeli rightist, and his political ideology and strategy are much more complex than you give him credit.

It's very important to distinguish between anti-semitism and simply speaking out against a government. I am in no way anti-semitic, but I do disagree with much of the Israeli government's decisions over the years (and America's).

Only real nutcases see the destruction of Israel as the solution to the problem. Many people believe that the creation of the Jewish state was a mistake in retrospect (myself included), but that is irrelevant now. The fact is that millions of Jewish people now live in that region, and they are a part of it. Those who are opposed to it's continued existance are hypocrites. After all, it was British Palestine that was settled by Zionists over the course of ~50 years, driving the Arabs from much of the land. The solution to the problem is to look forward, not back, and see that two seperate states is the only way. That will take concessions from both sides, no matter who believes they are on the moral highground.

Someone mentioned further up this thread about the many contributions Israel has made to the world, and I think that proves that in turn we all have a right to help the people of Israel. The fact however is that no country in the Middle East could possibly threaten Israel militarily. The Palestinians certainly could not. I think something that hasn't been picked up fully is the highly important Jewish vote in America. Despite what many people might think, it *does* affect US foreign policy. Bush isn't a complete idiot :P