NationStates Jolt Archive

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment

Kinda shows how "civilized" we got the past 2000 years or so, doesn't it? ;)

I'm currently reading this history book about the relationship between Rome and Egypt, basically it comes down to Egypt paying whatever price Rome demanded, only because "might is right". And that is what reading that article reminded me off; might is as much right in 2004 as it was 50 B.C.. And no one can argue about this, there simply is too much empirical evidence to back it up. :(

And that is what reading that article reminded me off; might is as much right in 2004 as it was 50 B.C.. And no one can argue about this, there simply is too much empirical evidence to back it up. :(

You're right. I can't argue that point. It will still be the same in another
2000 years (if the human race is still around!). That's because the people
who believe that might makes right always end up in power. That's the flaw with pacifism and extreme liberalism. They won't work as long as people have a greed for power and/or money. Even though the teachers unions have been doing there best to teach socialism in America for the past 30 years, America is more materialistic than ever.

EDIT: Sorry Steph... I got a little off topic with that post!
My feeling on your topic is that Isreal and the Palestinians will continue to
try to kill one another until one of the 2 parties has been removed from the face of the earth.

thanks for sharing Steph!

yeah I never doubted the cruelty and racism of the power-hungry/land-hungry Israeli govt.

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment

Steph, a question I just thought of for debate's sake ...
Information in this article stated that this was a known combat zone.

What responsibilities do the protestors have for their placing themselves and their children in danger?

Would you enter into, or worse yet take your children, into a known combat zone for the purpose of protest?

Yes it is shocking. and I don't think it can be really defended, but as a Parent I would never let my child be placed in at that kind of risk. If Iknew someone was likley to be shooting my kids would be anywhere but there.
Don't take this as any sort of defence but you have to ask yourself why were children marching in what is in effect a war zone?

Steph, a question I just thought of for debate's sake ...

Information in this article stated that this was a known combat zone.

What responsibilities do the protestors have for their placing themselves and their children in danger?

Would you enter into, or worse yet take your children, into a known combat zone for the purpose of protest?

From the reports I have seen none of these people were armed. It was clearly a protest. Is there really any where in the occupied territory that isn't a war zone? I mean really.. they just bulldoze down peoples houses, shoot to kill what were obvious protestors... Sorry.. coming up empty on a way to justify what they did. They knew what they were doing don't kid yourself..It was an obvious protest. No excuse.

I would say it is because the conditions they live in are aweful and they are looking out for their childrens future by doing the only thing they can by protesting things that only promise to make their lives worse.

When you live in poverty and fear and have no bright future to look forward to, then you need to take drastic actions sometimes.

Given the fact that both Hamas and Al-Asqa Matyrs Brigade routinely use children, women, and old men as shields to the movement of armed terrorists, and that snipers can and would use the march as cover and concealment for their actions...or for the infiltration of the Rajah neighborhood to reinforce militants inside the area of operations...is it so diffficult to believe the IDF personnel became concerned for their safety as a huge crowd pressed near their positions?

Now..was this way over the top..I would venture so..but just as some don't condone Palestinian bombers but sympathize with them...I don't condone the IDF actions but I do understand them...

From the reports I have seen none of these people were armed. It was clearly a protest. Is there really any where in the occupied territory that isn't a war zone? I mean really.. they just bulldoze down peoples houses, shoot to kill what were obvious protestors... Sorry.. coming up empty on a way to justify what they did. They knew what they were doing don't kid yourself..It was an obvious protest. No excuse.

Steph ... I'll ask again ... would you place yourself or your children in the middle of an obviously active combat zone?

Let me just state for the record that I'm not taking sides on this issue i.e. Israel is justified, Palestinians are justified ... it is a tragedy no matter how you look it... there are no true winners!

With that said, there are a few other thoughts in response to the points you mentioned ...
"None of these people were armed"
You're a soldier for the "other side" these people are in a known combat zone and could have a bomb strapped under their clothing -- how would you know? You're in the military and trained to defend and take appropriate defensive measures.

The protestors know the environment and the risks ... what is their responsibility for placing themselves in this situation?

From the reports I have seen none of these people were armed. It was clearly a protest. Is there really any where in the occupied territory that isn't a war zone? I mean really.. they just bulldoze down peoples houses, shoot to kill what were obvious protestors... Sorry.. coming up empty on a way to justify what they did. They knew what they were doing don't kid yourself..It was an obvious protest. No excuse.

Steph ... I'll ask again ... would you place yourself or your children in the middle of an obviously active combat zone?

Let me just state for the record that I'm not taking sides on this issue i.e. Israel is justified, Palestinians are justified ... it is a tragedy no matter how you look it... there are no true winners!

With that said, there are a few other thoughts in response to the points you mentioned ...
"None of these people were armed"
You're a soldier for the "other side" these people are in a known combat zone and could have a bomb strapped under their clothing -- how would you know? You're in the military and trained to defend and take appropriate defensive measures.

The protestors know the environment and the risks ... what is their responsibility for placing themselves in this situation?

So umm what do you suggest? They leave their homeland? The occupied territory IS a war zone. No where is safe for the Palestinians.. don't you get that? Or have you not been paying attention? Sure they could leave their homeland.. I'm sure Israel would love that. Most are too damn poor to though. It doesn't matter where they are.. People complain about suicide bombers.. agreed.. bad people.. but so then they try to protest peacefully and Israel still kills them? Your argument is one of semantics.. you find a safe place to take your children in Palestine.. Good-Luck!

I think it was the heavy handedness of the response which is the most sickening.

Okay so there are a crowd of protesters in a "war zone" (even though, like Steph said its ALL a war zone, even when you're in your own home).

This crowd is coming a bit too close to the soldiers. You warn them first and say, "dont get too close or we'll open fire" (which hopefully they did, and I will imagine that that is what happened).

5 or 6 get too close so what happens is "tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles".

You can say well maybe half or even the entire crowd of protestors ran toward them. IF that is so the Army would have made such a comment to justify their actions.

It doesnt sound to me like they were protecting themselves but mass murdering innocent protesters.

I think it was the heavy handedness of the response which is the most sickening.

Okay so there are a crowd of protesters in a "war zone" (even though, like Steph said its ALL a war zone, even when you're in your own home).

This crowd is coming a bit too close to the soldiers. You warn them first and say, "dont get too close or we'll open fire" (which hopefully they did, and I will imagine that that is what happened).

5 or 6 get too close so what happens is "tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles".

You can say well maybe half or even the entire crowd of protestors ran toward them. IF that is so the Army would have made such a comment to justify their actions.

It doesnt sound to me like they were protecting themselves but mass murdering innocent protesters.

Really..and if half ran TOWARD the IDF personnel..instead of backing away as any sane person would do..is it too unreasonable to assume that some of those protesters were in fact suicide bombers, armed militants, or snipers...we have no way of knowing for sure..some on here take the Israelis side..some take the Pals side..me..I take the troops side.

In Vietnam...we had a 19 yr old prostitute manage to charm two young Marines into a hooch for a party..or so they thought..she was a sapper, and blew herself and the Marines to pieces....in a crowd of children Charlie had hidden a .12.7mm machine gun nest..the children parted as soon as a convoy came up the road...the machine gun opened fire, killing 10 soldiers, and wounding 14 others and blowing up the lead deuce and a half. Truth is..you don't know just how the Pals act until you're either dead or wounded yourself.

I think it was the heavy handedness of the response which is the most sickening.

Okay so there are a crowd of protesters in a "war zone" (even though, like Steph said its ALL a war zone, even when you're in your own home).

This crowd is coming a bit too close to the soldiers. You warn them first and say, "dont get too close or we'll open fire" (which hopefully they did, and I will imagine that that is what happened).

5 or 6 get too close so what happens is "tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles".

You can say well maybe half or even the entire crowd of protestors ran toward them. IF that is so the Army would have made such a comment to justify their actions.

It doesnt sound to me like they were protecting themselves but mass murdering innocent protesters.

Really..and if half ran TOWARD the IDF personnel..instead of backing away as any sane person would do..is it too unreasonable to assume that some of those protesters were in fact suicide bombers, armed militants, or snipers...we have no way of knowing for sure..some on here take the Israelis side..some take the Pals side..me..I take the troops side.

There is no evidence to suggest this is what happened. In fact most reports I have seen this morning suggest they simply opened fire on them. Sorry.. nice speculation, but no evidence to back it up.

I was merely suggesting that you could take out the ones coming at you with machine guns only....

tank shells and helicopter missiles is going way too far.

Remember Salishe... the Army had no comment. If they had a line of defense, don't you think they would have spouted it?

I think it was the heavy handedness of the response which is the most sickening.

Okay so there are a crowd of protesters in a "war zone" (even though, like Steph said its ALL a war zone, even when you're in your own home).

This crowd is coming a bit too close to the soldiers. You warn them first and say, "dont get too close or we'll open fire" (which hopefully they did, and I will imagine that that is what happened).

5 or 6 get too close so what happens is "tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles".

You can say well maybe half or even the entire crowd of protestors ran toward them. IF that is so the Army would have made such a comment to justify their actions.

It doesnt sound to me like they were protecting themselves but mass murdering innocent protesters.

Really..and if half ran TOWARD the IDF personnel..instead of backing away as any sane person would do..is it too unreasonable to assume that some of those protesters were in fact suicide bombers, armed militants, or snipers...we have no way of knowing for sure..some on here take the Israelis side..some take the Pals side..me..I take the troops side.

There is no evidence to suggest this is what happened. In fact most reports I have seen this morning suggest they simply opened fire on them. Sorry.. nice speculation, but no evidence to back it up.

Well..I've not seen any "evidence"...what I have seen are reports from the Pals side which I take with the same consideration they could be biased that I consider the Israelis...and I stand by my conclusion that the Pals are no different then the VietCong was in being deceitful and sneaky in how they manage to kill their opposites. They'll use children, old men, women, ambulances..you name it..they've done it.

Since you weren't there either Steph..and neither was I..I say we ask Womblington..who is an Israeli and closer to the scene then either you or I and ask him if he has anything more concrete on the situation?

I think it was the heavy handedness of the response which is the most sickening.

Okay so there are a crowd of protesters in a "war zone" (even though, like Steph said its ALL a war zone, even when you're in your own home).

This crowd is coming a bit too close to the soldiers. You warn them first and say, "dont get too close or we'll open fire" (which hopefully they did, and I will imagine that that is what happened).

5 or 6 get too close so what happens is "tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles".

You can say well maybe half or even the entire crowd of protestors ran toward them. IF that is so the Army would have made such a comment to justify their actions.

It doesnt sound to me like they were protecting themselves but mass murdering innocent protesters.

Really..and if half ran TOWARD the IDF personnel..instead of backing away as any sane person would do..is it too unreasonable to assume that some of those protesters were in fact suicide bombers, armed militants, or snipers...we have no way of knowing for sure..some on here take the Israelis side..some take the Pals side..me..I take the troops side.

There is no evidence to suggest this is what happened. In fact most reports I have seen this morning suggest they simply opened fire on them. Sorry.. nice speculation, but no evidence to back it up.


Since you weren't there either Steph..and neither was I..I say we ask Womblington..who is an Israeli and closer to the scene then either you or I and ask him if he has anything more concrete on the situation?

Well, I'm sure Wom wasn't there either.. but the camera crews were.. I'm not sure what reports you have seen.. but the ones I have seen were caught live on camera. What are you going to believe? The camera? Or your own speculation?

So umm what do you suggest? They leave their homeland? The occupied territory IS a war zone. No where is safe for the Palestinians.. don't you get that? Or have you not been paying attention? Sure they could leave their homeland.. I'm sure Israel would love that. Most are too damn poor to though. It doesn't matter where they are.. People complain about suicide bombers.. agreed.. bad people.. but so then they try to protest peacefully and Israel still kills them? Your argument is one of semantics.. you find a safe place to take your children in Palestine.. Good-Luck!

There's a difference though in putting yourself smack into an active military zone.

Unfortunately the occupied territory is the current environment for this region and the locals have knowledge of which zones are more dangerous at a particular time than another. These people have had to adapt to this type of environment and have learned survivial tactics - one of which I'm sure is to not go in force to protest into an area that has open combat occurring.

What purpose is the protest going to accomplished at that place and time other than to put people on both sides at greater risk and to cause more pain and destruction for both sides?

It's not semantics, it's a valid question and it's a deliberate (or just plain ignorant?) action on the part of the parents by allowing children to participate in this type of forum.

So umm what do you suggest? They leave their homeland? The occupied territory IS a war zone. No where is safe for the Palestinians.. don't you get that? Or have you not been paying attention? Sure they could leave their homeland.. I'm sure Israel would love that. Most are too damn poor to though. It doesn't matter where they are.. People complain about suicide bombers.. agreed.. bad people.. but so then they try to protest peacefully and Israel still kills them? Your argument is one of semantics.. you find a safe place to take your children in Palestine.. Good-Luck!

There's a difference though in putting yourself smack into an active military zone.

Unfortunately the occupied territory is the current environment for this region and the locals have knowledge of which zones are more dangerous at a particular time than another. These people have had to adapt to this type of environment and have learned survivial tactics - one of which I'm sure is to not go in force to protest into an area that has open combat occurring.

What purpose is the protest going to accomplished at that place and time other than to put people on both sides at greater risk and to cause more pain and destruction for both sides?

It's not semantics, it's a valid question and it's a deliberate (or just plain ignorant?) action on the part of the parents by allowing children to participate in this type of forum.

I'm sorry I can't agree...Every human being should have a right to protest for what they believe in. They should also have a reasonable expectation that they won't be fired upon and or killed for doing so by a government that claims to be a democracy. The Americans daily send their children off to fight for other countries (i.e. Iraq) Should Palestine not be allowed to be heard? I suppose by your argument I could call American parents irresponsible for allowing their children to enlist in the army.. or to protest against what they see as unjust. These people didn't try to move outside of their own borders..

A little update...

By Cynthia Johnston

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Israeli forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing at least 10 Palestinians and raising the death toll to 33 in Israel's bloodiest raid in Gaza in years.


Israeli media said at least 22 bodies, most of them school children, had been counted after the strike in the Rafah camp, which some witnesses said was carried out by helicopter gunships and others blamed on firing by tanks.


People fled screaming, some dragging bloodied comrades and others carrying wounded children in their arms.


"It was horrifying," said Mahmoud Abu Hashem, 35. "There was one person with his intestines coming out. Another had blood covering his face and you couldn't even make out his features."


Medics said 10 people were killed and 50 wounded in Rafah in southern Gaza, which raised the two-day death toll to one of the highest in three and a half years of conflict.


The Palestinian Authority branded the attack a "war crime" and demanded international protection for the Palestinian people.


The Israeli army said it was investigating but that it was too soon to say what had happened.

The bloodshed seemed certain to bring fresh international pressure on Israel to end its assault, which began Tuesday with the stated goal of rooting out militants and uncovering tunnels used to smuggle weapons across the border from Egypt.

The protesters aren't wandering into an active warzone - they are beseiged in their refugee camp and were protesting this.

EDIT: can't stay and argue unfortunately. Gotta rush. Cheers the noo!

The protesters aren't wandering into an active warzone - they are beseiged in their refugee camp and were protesting this.

Exactly...

Fired on a large crowd of Palestinians? With tanks, machine-guns and helicopters it seems that 10 dead and 40 wounded would indicate that the IDF fired of a small segment of a large crowd. If this were a wanton slaughter the numbers of dead and wounded could have been huge. It would apprear to me that a few in the crowd were fired on.

These are the actions of a small group of soldiers acting under highest authority, an isolated incident until you look at all the other similar incidents, which is not the fault of the Israeli government which consists of bloodthirsty madmen.

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper:

Military sources said that troops had spotted the approaching demonstrators, among them armed men, and asked a helicopter to fire a warning missile at an open field. But when the crowd continued to march, a tank fired three shells at the nearby abandoned building to ward the protesters off.

Senior IDF officers said that if there was indeed a mistake in the firing of the shell, it would be a grave fault that would affect the continuation of the ongoing military operation in the Gaza Strip.

The IDF expressed deep sorrow at the incident in which innocent people were killed and offered the Palestinians to transport casualties for treatment in Israeli hospitals.

These are the actions of a small group of soldiers acting under highest authority, an isolated incident until you look at all the other similar incidents, which is not the fault of the Israeli government which consists of bloodthirsty madmen.

Ya, you get it.. ;)

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Oh.and there is zero anti-semitism historically in british media circles...nope...

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Oh.and there is zero anti-semitism historically in british media circles...nope...

Well, thus far I have seen most reporting by Canadian sources.. and you're going to have to pull a rabbit out of your butt before you can claim Canada anti-Semitic..

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Oh.and there is zero anti-semitism historically in british media circles...nope...

Well, thus far I have seen most reporting by Canadian sources.. and you're going to have to pull a rabbit out of your butt before you can claim Canada anti-Semitic..

I'll grant you that...have to read up on just what exactly the Canadians are saying, compare it with Israelis and see if the Canadians have anything in common or are just reflecting the Pals point of view.

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources? Now that's a stretch.

But then again, here's a BBC for you:

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brig Gen Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"Tank shells were fired at [an abandoned] structure, at no point in the direction of the demonstrators," she said, although she admitted that it was possible that there may have been "casualties as a result of the tank shells".

"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," she added.

I am going to wait for investigation results before I pass any judgements.

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources? Now that's a stretch.

But then again, here's a BBC for you:

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brig Gen Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"Tank shells were fired at [an abandoned] structure, at no point in the direction of the demonstrators," she said, although she admitted that it was possible that there may have been "casualties as a result of the tank shells".

"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," she added.

I am going to wait for investigation results before I pass any judgements.

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Oh.and there is zero anti-semitism historically in british media circles...nope...

What kind of time-scale are we referring to here? That's an interesting claim...

I'll stress here that I'll side with Womblingdon and wait for the smoke to clear before leaping to any conclusions.

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources? Now that's a stretch.

But then again, here's a BBC for you:

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brig Gen Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"Tank shells were fired at [an abandoned] structure, at no point in the direction of the demonstrators," she said, although she admitted that it was possible that there may have been "casualties as a result of the tank shells".

"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," she added.

I am going to wait for investigation results before I pass any judgements.

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Or it could be a shell gone astray. Or it could be a Palestinian explosive device, since the area is ridden with them. You automatically suggest intent, while it is not at all clear if there was one.

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

Unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources? Now that's a stretch.

But then again, here's a BBC for you:

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brig Gen Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"Tank shells were fired at [an abandoned] structure, at no point in the direction of the demonstrators," she said, although she admitted that it was possible that there may have been "casualties as a result of the tank shells".

"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," she added.

I am going to wait for investigation results before I pass any judgements.

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Or it could be a shell gone astray. Or it could be a Palestinian explosive device, since the area is ridden with them. You automatically suggest intent, while it is not at all clear if there was one.

I'm not sure what they're showing over in Israel and I know they aren't showing much on American TV.. Here in Canada they showed the footage.. It was certainly the Israeli's firing on them, that is not disputed by the camera footage I've seen..

Steph, a question I just thought of for debate's sake ...

Information in this article stated that this was a known combat zone.

What responsibilities do the protestors have for their placing themselves and their children in danger?

Would you enter into, or worse yet take your children, into a known combat zone for the purpose of protest?

From the reports I have seen none of these people were armed. It was clearly a protest. Is there really any where in the occupied territory that isn't a war zone? I mean really.. they just bulldoze down peoples houses, shoot to kill what were obvious protestors... Sorry.. coming up empty on a way to justify what they did. They knew what they were doing don't kid yourself..It was an obvious protest. No excuse.

Not defending this incident Steph, but there are numerous incidents were there were unarmed protestors doing their thing and a gunman infiltrates. He pops up and starts cranking off rounds.....

The media rarely mentions that as it is better news to see big bad soldiers firing on women and children.

Just like you rarely hear about "good" Palistineans.

Steph, a question I just thought of for debate's sake ...

Information in this article stated that this was a known combat zone.

What responsibilities do the protestors have for their placing themselves and their children in danger?

Would you enter into, or worse yet take your children, into a known combat zone for the purpose of protest?

From the reports I have seen none of these people were armed. It was clearly a protest. Is there really any where in the occupied territory that isn't a war zone? I mean really.. they just bulldoze down peoples houses, shoot to kill what were obvious protestors... Sorry.. coming up empty on a way to justify what they did. They knew what they were doing don't kid yourself..It was an obvious protest. No excuse.

Not defending this incident Steph, but there are numerous incidents were there were unarmed protestors doing their thing and a gunman infiltrates. He pops up and starts cranking off rounds.....

The media rarely mentions that as it is better news to see big bad soldiers firing on women and children.

Just like you rarely hear about "good" Palistineans.

Well, at this point, I think I'm going to follow Wom's lead to at least wait till more info comes out. However, there is no doubt that it was the Israeli's firing on them, I seen the footage with my own two eyes.

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper:

Yeah,Haaretz is as left-wing as the Washington Times. :roll:


Military sources said that troops had spotted the approaching demonstrators, among them armed men, and asked a helicopter to fire a warning missile at an open field. But when the crowd continued to march, a tank fired three shells at the nearby abandoned building to ward the protesters off.

Senior IDF officers said that if there was indeed a mistake in the firing of the shell, it would be a grave fault that would affect the continuation of the ongoing military operation in the Gaza Strip.

The IDF expressed deep sorrow at the incident in which innocent people were killed and offered the Palestinians to transport casualties for treatment in Israeli hospitals.

I'm sorry,but a warning "missile"?! That's like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. I don't care what the situation is,you don't do overkill if you only want to "warn people away." Only in Likud-run Israel,which wrote the book on targeted assassination (you know,the kind where you only take out the intended target),would someone come up with a ludicrous concept like a "warning missile." :roll:

Now don't get me wrong,I'm all for Israel's right to exist,but this sort of thing is what keeps the cycle of violence going,and makes the two-state ideal solution an ever more distant mirage.

Oh.and there is zero anti-semitism historically in british media circles...nope...

What kind of time-scale are we referring to here? That's an interesting claim...
Very very recently, actually. The Guardian had been guilty of it quite a lot.

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Amazing how fast you went from "Israel deliberately kills innocent civilians" to "Some one messed up, that's obvious". Also interesting is how you refuse to believe the Israeli newspaper while trusting Yahoo which quotes "Palestinian security sources". I don't know what you saw or you think you saw in that video, but if 4 missiles and some tank shells would've been fired directly at a the crowd, do you really think only 10 people would've died?

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper:

Yeah,Haaretz is as left-wing as the Washington Times. :roll:
Don't know about Washington Times, but Haaretz is as pro-Palestinian as they come. Most of the stories in which Israel bashers love so much to jump come from Haaretz.



Military sources said that troops had spotted the approaching demonstrators, among them armed men, and asked a helicopter to fire a warning missile at an open field. But when the crowd continued to march, a tank fired three shells at the nearby abandoned building to ward the protesters off.

Senior IDF officers said that if there was indeed a mistake in the firing of the shell, it would be a grave fault that would affect the continuation of the ongoing military operation in the Gaza Strip.

The IDF expressed deep sorrow at the incident in which innocent people were killed and offered the Palestinians to transport casualties for treatment in Israeli hospitals.

I'm sorry,but a warning "missile"?! That's like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. I don't care what the situation is,you don't do overkill if you only want to "warn people away." Only in Likud-run Israel,which wrote the book on targeted assassination (you know,the kind where you only take out the intended target),would someone come up with a ludicrous concept like a "warning missile." :roll:

Now don't get me wrong,I'm all for Israel's right to exist,but this sort of thing is what keeps the cycle of violence going,and makes the two-state ideal solution an ever more distant mirage.
I am not saying that it was the right thing to do. Someone must have seriously misjudged the situation. Its the first time ever that I hear about helicopters used for riot control (though, to be fair, they did spend enough time firing harmless flares as a warning). Well, like I said, I am not defending the action as such. It was idiocy, and I want heads to roll. Ideally, I would want the IAF chief of staff to resign.

Here's a nice current article from that pro-Palestinian HaAretz (I always thought it was a respectable old moderate paper).
Just like soccer in Iraq: Peace through SPORT!


Background / The Israeli Arab as Winner

By Yair Ettinger, Haaretz Correspondent



A few hours before the Israeli Arab Bnei Sakhnin soccer squad was to take the field against Hapoel Haifa for the State Cup late Tuesday, a Haifa resident telephoned a call-in program on the regional A-Shams radio station.




"Bnei Sakhnin should keep away from the game," he warned. The Sakhnin team must not "endanger itself" by showing up for a contest that could bring it a national symbol of the State of Israel, the caller declared, and from the president, yet.

The next caller, speaking in an emotional tone, attacked the Haifa fan. "We're proud that our team is competing for the State Cup."

The host of the program asked the second caller to identify himself.

"I am all of Sakhnin," the caller replied. "All Sakhnin is proud today."

Even before the end of the 90 minutes of regulation play, the reservoir of verbal crowns applicable to Bnei Sakhnin had already run dry. "Historic" is not a word generally used in connection with a state soccer cup.

But in the Israeli Arab Galilee town, they spoke Tuesday of a "Sacred Day - The Independence Day of the Palestinian Arabs of Israel."

Others, like Bnei Sakhnin Chairman Mazen Ghnaem, said that it a day of pride for the State of Israel, and that for the first time, they were proud to be Israelis.

The historic achievement, of course, lies in the arrival of the Arabs - tens of thousands came to the stadium - that made their way from the very fringes of the margins to the very center of events, and in the role of the winners.

Immediately after the Arab captain of the Arab team held aloft the golden cup trophy, Shawki Khatib, chairman of the Israeli Arab umbrella group, the Higher Monitoring Committee for Arab Affairs in Israel, said: "This is a beef against all those who voice beefs against the Arabs all year long, who have a beef with us from every direction. This is a beef with the state, saying that despite all the discrimination, we can compete as equals for the State Cup."

The sweet taste of victory came mixed with other flavors, of course. There were those who felt confusion as they watched Bnei Sakhnin players drape themselves with the Israeli flag as they took their victory lap around Ramat Gan Stadium. There were those who felt ill at ease, with Palestinian casualties mounting in Rafah and this week's Arab commemoration of Naqba (Catastrophe) Day, the anniversary of the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel.

The community of Sakhnin itself has made its way through long years of struggle with the state, in the course of which lands were confiscated and young people killed in violent confrontations. In the Sakhnin bleachers in Ramat Gan, blue-and-white flags were waved along with portraits of two Sakhnin residents shot dead by police in the outskirts of the city in October 2000.

A-Shams Radio and other Arab media outlets stopped dealing with these issues Tuesday, however. They focused instead on the carnival of the Israeli Arab public. Author and journalist Salem Joubran, editor of the Sakhnin-based Al-Ahli newspaper, said that he had never had the slightest interest in soccer, but that at the final whistle of the Tuesday came, he shed a tear.

"This is the greatest of joyous occasions, a joyous occasion that bridges between the Jews and the Arabs," Joubran said.

"This can be a breakthrough," he said of the victory by the Sakhnin team, which has both Arabs and Jews on its roster. "If Jews and Arabs can play together and win a cup, they can also do business together, and simply live together.

Now, Joubran continued, "one needn't be a big ideologue in order to engage in Arab-Jewish cooperation. We can - and we should - be together."

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Amazing how fast you went from "Israel deliberately kills innocent civilians" to "Some one messed up, that's obvious"

Oh don't get me wrong, I still stand by this was deliberately done..

I'm sorry I can't agree...Every human being should have a right to protest for what they believe in. They should also have a reasonable expectation that they won't be fired upon and or killed for doing so by a government that claims to be a democracy. The Americans daily send their children off to fight for other countries (i.e. Iraq) Should Palestine not be allowed to be heard? I suppose by your argument I could call American parents irresponsible for allowing their children to enlist in the army.. or to protest against what they see as unjust. These people didn't try to move outside of their own borders..

To clarify, the children of American parents who enlist to serve are over the age of eighteen (adults) who understand the responsibility and consequences of their service. The protesters brought along children who are not of an age of consent. These parents are legally, morally, and ethically responsible for their childrens'well-being. Involving children in these types of activities increasing risk and the majority of people would argue is an irresponsible action of a parent.

There are other venues that have and can be used for protesting offering far less risk than this one. [quote]

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Amazing how fast you went from "Israel deliberately kills innocent civilians" to "Some one messed up, that's obvious"

Oh don't get me wrong, I still stand by this was deliberately done..

You mean someone deliberately messed up? :lol:

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment
Heavy handed tactics that result in the death of innocent people is a scourge on our society and should be condemned. By the same token, I do not condone suicide bombers either.

The UN Security Council should pass a Resolution to send UN forces into the occupied territories to keep the two factions at bay a DMZ if you will.

Israel has already agreed to the transfer of most of the disputed lands and that should happen forthwith and then the Israelis and Palestinians should be forced to sit down and discuss the remaining areas of dispute and work on a peaceful solution.

If Israel balks at such a set of conditions, then the US should withdraw all financial aid, and the UN should impose economic sanctions.

The solution is there and it needs to be addressed before the Israelis wipe out the Palestinians. God knows the Palestinians have no way of matching Israel's firepower.

This stuff is truly sickening.

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment
Heavy handed tactics that result in the death of innocent people is a scourge on our society and should be condemned. By the same token, I do not condone suicide bombers either.

The UN Security Council should pass a Resolution to send UN forces into the occupied territories to keep the two factions at bay a DMZ if you will.

Israel has already agreed to the transfer of most of the disputed lands and that should happen forthwith and then the Israelis and Palestinians should be forced to sit down and discuss the remaining areas of dispute and work on a peaceful solution.

If Israel balks at such a set of conditions, then the US should withdraw all financial aid, and the UN should impose economic sanctions.

The solution is there and it needs to be addressed before the Israelis wipe out the Palestinians. God knows the Palestinians have no way of matching Israel's firepower.

This stuff is truly sickening.



AGREED!

Why the hell hasn't this hapened yet?

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Amazing how fast you went from "Israel deliberately kills innocent civilians" to "Some one messed up, that's obvious"

Oh don't get me wrong, I still stand by this was deliberately done..

You mean someone deliberately messed up? :lol:

Play on my words if you must. I was saying that some one messed up by giving this order.. that doesn't mean it wasn't deliberately done, now please grow up..

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment
Heavy handed tactics that result in the death of innocent people is a scourge on our society and should be condemned. By the same token, I do not condone suicide bombers either.

The UN Security Council should pass a Resolution to send UN forces into the occupied territories to keep the two factions at bay a DMZ if you will.

Israel has already agreed to the transfer of most of the disputed lands and that should happen forthwith and then the Israelis and Palestinians should be forced to sit down and discuss the remaining areas of dispute and work on a peaceful solution.

If Israel balks at such a set of conditions, then the US should withdraw all financial aid, and the UN should impose economic sanctions.

The solution is there and it needs to be addressed before the Israelis wipe out the Palestinians. God knows the Palestinians have no way of matching Israel's firepower.

This stuff is truly sickening.



AGREED!

Why the hell hasn't this hapened yet?

No way of matching their firepower?...Seems to me they've done ok for the last 50 yrs..You equate high tech firepower with invincibility...a flawed method of thinking...Because they have a 10 million dollar attack helicopter you forget that a $10,000 hand-held ground to air missile can bring it down..because they have tanks, you forget that anti-tank mines are not only cheap from the manufactured ones but the Pals are adept at IED's that can take out two heavily armored APC's as recently seen. Because they do not have 155mm artillery pieces you negate the damage a cheaper 81mm mortar can do..and it's much more mobile.put it on a improvised truck and you have a mobile piece...artillery tend to be fixed emplacements....I'd rather be mobile with a 60mm or 81mm mortar which also do not rely on line of sight targeting.

The Pals are also by experience extremely capable infantrymen with a vast experience with small-arms....

In short...if they so choose they could make life very uncomfortable for the ID, and could give them a run for their money....what they lack is the guts to target the IDF and follow thru with an assault....because by assaulting a military objective they might fail in that objective...brain-washing a suicide bomber is cheaper, and more affective if you send them after civilians.

Play on my words if you must. I was saying that some one messed up by giving this order.. that doesn't mean it wasn't deliberately done, now please grow up..

So now you're saying, if I understand the wording correctly, that someone in the IDF or maybe even in the government gave the order to kill innocent Palestinians without realizing that on the whole, it'd be a bad move?

Play on my words if you must. I was saying that some one messed up by giving this order.. that doesn't mean it wasn't deliberately done, now please grow up..

So now you're saying, if I understand the wording correctly, that someone in the IDF or maybe even in the government gave the order to kill innocent Palestinians without realizing that on the whole, it'd be a bad move?

Umm yeah, it would be a war crime.. equal to Hamas.

I still support Israel...

I still support Israel...

Wouldn't happen to be Jewish would ya? ;)

Play on my words if you must. I was saying that some one messed up by giving this order.. that doesn't mean it wasn't deliberately done, now please grow up..

So now you're saying, if I understand the wording correctly, that someone in the IDF or maybe even in the government gave the order to kill innocent Palestinians without realizing that on the whole, it'd be a bad move?

Umm yeah, it would be a war crime.. equal to Hamas.

You missed the point. What I was trying to say was that however cruel, bloodthirsty and generally monstrous you think we Israelis are, we're still sane and not entirely stupid. Hell, you don't have to be that smart to understand the world will frown upon the killing of innocents. So either the person who gave the order and all those directly below him in the chain of command are lunatics, or no such order was given.

I still support Israel...

Wouldn't happen to be Jewish would ya? ;)

LoL, that's the second time you've asked me that, I'm not.

The conflict between Israel and Palistinians is never ending. One week, a suicide bomber kills 12 Israelis, the next Israelis kill Palistinians.

Although I'm sure many will be horrified that Israel killed civilians, it's happened before.

Israelis and Palistinians will always hate and kill each other, the media ought to just stop reporting these stories they happen so often. However, I support Israel because they will help my nation if we need to go to war in the Middle East. Sure it sounds like a bad reason, but really, that's the whole reason Americans support Israel...

I have no sense of morals and I will side with anyone regardless of whether they are right or wrong so long as they are willing to help us in our conquest for oil.
'Nuff said.

ariel sharon is killing more israelis by actively promoting more terrorism bulldozing peoples houses as well--also sharon is provoking many incidents of antisemitism in europe as well cause of all the war crimes hes committing--Sharon is bringing Israel down just like Bush is destroying everything good about america with his idiocy

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment

Steph, a question I just thought of for debate's sake ...
Information in this article stated that this was a known combat zone.

What responsibilities do the protestors have for their placing themselves and their children in danger?

Would you enter into, or worse yet take your children, into a known combat zone for the purpose of protest?
These people did not come from far and wide. They were in a refugee camp.

SHL

I still support Israel...

Wouldn't happen to be Jewish would ya? ;)

I'm very surprised to hear such an intolerant comment pass your lips. You seemed to be such a champion of human rights.

I know Jews in TRW that are sick and tired of how things are handled in Israel and I know fundi Christians that are knee jerk apologists for Israel. In fact there is a diverse range of people that support or oppose Israel's policies.

SHL

ariel sharon is killing more israelis by actively promoting more terrorism bulldozing peoples houses as well--also sharon is provoking many incidents of antisemitism in europe as well cause of all the war crimes hes committing--Sharon is bringing Israel down just like Bush is destroying everything good about america with his idiocy

Ah what? :?

Sharon is making Europe anti-semitic? :shock:

Sorry no man has that ability. Let me tell you a secret!

The people commiting the incidents were already Anti-Semitic.

I am not sure what to think yet. It sure looks bad. Whoever gave that order, I want heads to roll all the way up the chain of command. Howver, Steph, I am afraid you are way too quick to jump to conclusions.

You seem to have carefully chosen sources that do not suggest any other explanation than a deliberate attack on a crowd. Here are some of the other reports that you have omitted:

From Haaretz, a generally pro-Palestinian left wing Israeli newspaper

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think [/u] I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources[/u]..

Unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources? Now that's a stretch.

But then again, here's a BBC for you:

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brig Gen Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"Tank shells were fired at [an abandoned] structure, at no point in the direction of the demonstrators," she said, although she admitted that it was possible that there may have been "casualties as a result of the tank shells".

"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," she added.

I am going to wait for investigation results before I pass any judgements.

Listen, some one messed up, that's obvious, question remaining is.. how far up did the order go? Or, were these just some zealots within your armed forces? That's the only question I really have left..

Then this must be the close of the matter for you. Because it will be the Israelis who investigate the matter. If they come to the conclusion that the soldiers were justified but erred by way of target selection or trajectory or tactics employed. Will you not then insist it is a coverup?

I am not familiar with Woblingdon's source, Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=51345&contrassID=61&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0) but it is interesting that you discount whatever they may say since it is published in Israel.

Seems a little selective. But I guess the "istan" should have been a clue.

SHL

From the looks of most of your posts, I'd say this is the anti-Israel forum. I personally favour the Israelis on this conflict for one reason: the Arabs have the rest of the darn Middle East. They have Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Turkey, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Qatar, Kuwait, U.A.E, and Bahrain. I also didn't count the Muslim nations in Africa or in the former Soviet Union. Israel is a small, dusty piece of land that even I wouldn't want to live on, so why do the Arabs want so much? Because they are bent on destroying anything that is associated with the USA or it's allies. The Arabs are the ones who are power hungry, they have a huge chunk of land. Besides, i'm suspecious what Arafat would do if he got that land, likely make it training bases for Hamas. I'm not anti-Muslim, i'm anti-hard core Muslims, who blow themselves up in a mall and kill 400 innocent people. I know Jewish soldiers kill Arabs, but freedom and saftey come at a cost. Oh and btw way I'm not Jewish, I just don't feel all that comfortable lately with the way some Muslims seem to be going with their religion.

Well whoever was in that tank was 1) an idiot for firing a shell at a building the protestors were standing next to and 2) a sicko for firing shells at the people after they started running away.

That said, the Palestinians were morons for trying to mob troops on an active mission. Even more idiotic for bringing their kids along. Demonstrations are fine and all, but who ever heard of demonstrating soldiers on a combat mission? And did the warning shot fired by the helicopter into an adjacent field not tip them off that these people weren't just goofing around?

Quarter the gunner or whatever, but why would these people be so stupid?

From the looks of most of your posts, I'd say this is the anti-Israel forum. I personally favour the Israelis on this conflict for one reason: the Arabs have the rest of the darn Middle East. They have Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Turkey, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Qatar, Kuwait, U.A.E, and Bahrain. I also didn't count the Muslim nations in Africa or in the former Soviet Union. Israel is a small, dusty piece of land that even I wouldn't want to live on, so why do the Arabs want so much?

Um, it's the Palestinians who want it so much. They don't seem to belong to any of the other Arab states. Certainly the Arab states don't want the Palestinians. The Palestinians want the land because it was their home.

From the looks of most of your posts, I'd say this is the anti-Israel forum. I personally favour the Israelis on this conflict for one reason: the Arabs have the rest of the darn Middle East. They have Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Turkey, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Qatar, Kuwait, U.A.E, and Bahrain. I also didn't count the Muslim nations in Africa or in the former Soviet Union. Israel is a small, dusty piece of land that even I wouldn't want to live on, so why do the Arabs want so much? Because they are bent on destroying anything that is associated with the USA or it's allies. The Arabs are the ones who are power hungry, they have a huge chunk of land. Besides, i'm suspecious what Arafat would do if he got that land, likely make it training bases for Hamas. I'm not anti-Muslim, i'm anti-hard core Muslims, who blow themselves up in a mall and kill 400 innocent people. I know Jewish soldiers kill Arabs, but freedom and saftey come at a cost. Oh and btw way I'm not Jewish, I just don't feel all that comfortable lately with the way some Muslims seem to be going with their religion.

Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran are not Arab.

Persians live in Iran and part of Afghanistan, ethnic Indians live in Pakistan and the rest of Afghanistan and Turks live in Turkey.

All this thread has served to do is provide evidence that liberal wankers comprise the vast majority of forum denizens.

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment


John Kerry said Israel always takes the moral highground, yeah right.

First, I'd like to point out I don't support the action in question.

That said, in regard to this:

Every human being should have a right to protest for what they believe in. They should also have a reasonable expectation that they won't be fired upon and or killed for doing so by a government that claims to be a democracy.

Shouldn't Israelis, by the same token, have a reasonable expecatation they they won't be blown up when they go on a bus or get a piece of pizza?

I didn't "omit" any thing... you think (regardless of how "left-wing" you claim) that I'm going to trust an Israeli source? Hardly credible given the circumstance. Thanks, I think I'll stick to the unbiased journalism of Canadian and UK sources..

You're extremely naive if you think that there's anything such as "unbiased journalism". If humans are involved in reporting it, there's a bias.

Incidentally, isn't saying you wouldn't trust an Israeli source, no matter how "whatever", just a tad biased in of itself? Maybe even prejudicial?

Yeah,Haaretz is as left-wing as the Washington Times.

I find Haaretz quite left-wing. And apparently it's even more left-wing in its Hebrew edition.

You apparently disagree. Why?

ariel sharon is killing more israelis by actively promoting more terrorism bulldozing peoples houses as well--also sharon is provoking many incidents of antisemitism in europe as well cause of all the war crimes hes committing--Sharon is bringing Israel down just like Bush is destroying everything good about america with his idiocy

In that case, what would you say Arafat and Hamas et al. are doing for the Palestinians?

Also, I personally don't really buy the "Sharon causes antisemitism in Europe argument". That sounds more like a lame excuse than anything else.

So are we to believe now that innocent protestors are now members of Hamas? I don't think so. So the next time you're told that Israel doesn't deliberately kill innocent civilians, you may tell them to get stuffed! I don't think even Womblingdon can defend this one. Although, some thing tells me he will try.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.


An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp.


The army had no immediate comment
Heavy handed tactics that result in the death of innocent people is a scourge on our society and should be condemned. By the same token, I do not condone suicide bombers either.

The UN Security Council should pass a Resolution to send UN forces into the occupied territories to keep the two factions at bay a DMZ if you will.

Israel has already agreed to the transfer of most of the disputed lands and that should happen forthwith and then the Israelis and Palestinians should be forced to sit down and discuss the remaining areas of dispute and work on a peaceful solution.

If Israel balks at such a set of conditions, then the US should withdraw all financial aid, and the UN should impose economic sanctions.

The solution is there and it needs to be addressed before the Israelis wipe out the Palestinians. God knows the Palestinians have no way of matching Israel's firepower.

This stuff is truly sickening.



AGREED!

Why the hell hasn't this hapened yet?
Perhaps the Israel's don't want to give up the occupied lands?

Perhaps the Israel's don't want peace?

Perhaps the Israel's would prefer to destroy the Palestinians?

After the Hollocaust of WW 2, the world was very sympathetic towards the plight of the Jews, as was I. I cheered for the Israeli's when they beat back the Arab world in the Six Day War, but then I hear about the above story, and read stories like the one below and my goodwill towards their plight gets lost on their evil deeds.

This is not how you win friends:

"No one refused an order to take down a house. When they told me to destroy a house I exploited that in order to destroy a few more homes. On the loudspeaker [the Palestinian residents] were warned to get out before I came in. But I didn't give a chance to anyone. I didn't wait. I'm sure that people died inside of those houses. From my perspective we left them a football field, they should play there. The 100x100 [meter cleared area] was was our present to the camp. Jenin will not return to be what it was."

- Moshe Nissim, winner of a Israeli Medal of Honour, who operated a bulldozer for 75 straight hours in the Palestinian Jenin refugee camp, as quoted in Yedioth Ahronot, 31st May 2002

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Perhaps the Israel's don't want to give up the occupied lands?

Perhaps the Israel's don't want peace?

This has been disproven by poll after poll from the past ten years. An overwhelming majority of Israelis want peace and prefer a 2-state solution. The problem is implementation, politicians, and ideologues.

Perhaps the Israel's would prefer to destroy the Palestinians?

Some probably would. The fact, however, that many more continually say they want a 2-state solution seems to preclude the whole "genocide" thing.

After the Hollocaust of WW 2, the world was very sympathetic towards the plight of the Jews, as was I. I cheered for the Israeli's when they beat back the Arab world in the Six Day War, but then I hear about the above story, and read stories like the one below and my goodwill towards their plight gets lost on their evil deeds.

I similarly am troubled by some disturbing Israeli activities. But I do not think it is right to condemn them as a people or a country. I condemn the policies, certain ideologies, and actions. Just as I do with the Palestinians.

I still support Israel...

Wouldn't happen to be Jewish would ya? ;)
Umm wow. Lower and lower, eh Steph? You wouldn't mind being labelled an ant-Semite for this snide, offensively generalizing comment implying that all Jews think alike, would you dear?