NationStates Jolt Archive


Mass destruction of houses in Gazza

Silly Mountain Walks
18-05-2004, 23:55
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?

Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.

BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.

Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?

Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)

Cheers
Coors Light
19-05-2004, 00:38
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.
Silly Mountain Walks
19-05-2004, 01:48
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.

Why sit back and watch?
We did not with the other Apartheid and the other wall?
Collaboration
19-05-2004, 03:35
Somehow this killing machine is supposed to be one of our most valuable allies, whomwe dare not offend.

I don't know why this is; maybe the Mossad has some dirty laundry on our major parties.
Tactical Grace
19-05-2004, 03:42
The day the two state solution fails, the Arabs under Israeli occupation demand the right to vote, Israel refuses, and the US makes uncomfortable noises, I will be laughing.
Stephistan
19-05-2004, 03:42
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.
Coors Light
19-05-2004, 06:10
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.

Why sit back and watch?
We did not with the other Apartheid and the other wall?
The international community is sick of us getting involved in everything, so why not just form an isolationist policy to the rest of the world and let the world solve its own problems?
Womblingdon
19-05-2004, 07:58
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
This is unfortunate, but it does happen in urban combat. Of course, for a clueless net addict whose ideas of what war is like are straight out of Hollywood movies (which covers most of the NS posters), the possibility of accidental killing may seem unlikely, but all I can say to that is a big :roll:

Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Israel is one of the main contributors to the UNRWA- so we DO pay.


Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?
Compensations ARE being paid in such cases. Not right away of course, but through a lawsuit, collective or individual. Of course you don't get to hear about it much in the foreign news- but don't blame us for that :roll:


Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.
You mean focuses even more, increasing the already disproportionate ammount of attention? Did you know, for example, that the Red Cross has 13 offices and 272 people staff in the Palestinian territories for their barely 4 million people, and only ONE office with 10 people staff for the whole of the giant disaster zone that is North Africa? Do you know that there are conflicts of a MUCH larger scale out there that do not receive neither coverage nor attention even remotely comparable to that received by the Palestinians? Ever heard of what is going on in Sudan? More than a MILLION people expelled from their homes over only the last year. But then it doesn't interest you much, does it? Who cares about a million Sudanese when you can protest for 2000 homeless Palestinians? :roll:


BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.
Which, of course, makes it perfectly acceptable for Hamas to kill innocents :roll:


Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?
What, pray tell, is the connection?


Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)
Free killings? That, my friend, is to be proved. Unless you fall into the category described my me when answering your first statement- that of a clueless net addict.


Cheers
Ahh that explains it. You've been drinking, weren't you? :wink:
Kirtondom
19-05-2004, 08:23
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.

Why sit back and watch?
We did not with the other Apartheid and the other wall?
If your talking about the US, yes you bloody well did!
Didn't see you invading South Africa! Or East Germany!
The situation is terrible but the US can't force any nation to do things it has not done it self. It does not even recognise it's mistakes when it kills allies in 'firendly fire' (gung ho shoot em up) actions.
Glass houses, stones and all that.
Kirtondom
19-05-2004, 08:24
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.

Why sit back and watch?
We did not with the other Apartheid and the other wall?
If your talking about the US, yes you bloody well did!
Didn't see you invading South Africa! Or East Germany!
The situation is terrible but the US can't force any nation to do things it has not done it self. It does not even recognise it's mistakes when it kills allies in 'firendly fire' (gung ho shoot em up) actions.
Glass houses, stones and all that.
19-05-2004, 08:44
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.

Why sit back and watch?
We did not with the other Apartheid and the other wall?
If your talking about the US, yes you bloody well did!
Didn't see you invading South Africa! Or East Germany!
The situation is terrible but the US can't force any nation to do things it has not done it self. It does not even recognise it's mistakes when it kills allies in 'firendly fire' (gung ho shoot em up) actions.
Glass houses, stones and all that.
Right, the reason for friendly fire incidents is the gung-ho shoot 'em up mentality of our incredibly barbaric military. Friendly fire has been occuring since the beginning of warfare, the only reason it's become so prominent in US military actions is because of the low number of enemy-inflicted casualties. Fratricide has only increased in proportion to the total number of casualties. Warfare is highly chaotic, it's stupid to think that fratricide is easy to avoid on a battlefield.
New Auburnland
19-05-2004, 09:56
I think non-Americans are sick of the US messing in situations that do not involve us, so we sould just set back and watch the distruction, suicide bombing, and Israeli airstrikes.

Why sit back and watch?
We did not with the other Apartheid and the other wall?
If your talking about the US, yes you bloody well did!
Didn't see you invading South Africa! Or East Germany!
The situation is terrible but the US can't force any nation to do things it has not done it self. It does not even recognise it's mistakes when it kills allies in 'firendly fire' (gung ho shoot em up) actions.
Glass houses, stones and all that.
I guess there would be no more friendly fire incidents if we just let the world go to hell in a hand basket and did nothing about it but make sure the sneaky Canadians don't try to skate across the boarder. I see all those fucking UN resolutions getting passed have done a hell of a lot to bring a peaceful solution to the Isreal/Palestine problem.
Kirtondom
19-05-2004, 10:05
I'm not saying friendly fire incidents will never happen in war. What I am saying is that when they happen a ‘sorry yes that was our fault’ would be nice.
And the point about enemy inflicted casualties is a good one, during both gulf wars the US killed more UK personnel than the Iraqis. :(
It appears to be more a problem eith the air force than with the ground troops. Maybe because on the ground you a more likley to have some one shoot you back.
Smeagol-Gollum
19-05-2004, 10:10
UN resolutions against Israel are continually vetoed by the US.

The facts :

The Jewish Virtual Library records that the US has vetoed UN Security Council resolutions critical of Israel 39 times, including vetoing resolutions to restrain Israel's army in Lebanon during the invasion of that country.

On most occasions, the Security Council voted 13 or 14 to 1 to censure Israel.

The number of times the US has protected Israel from international criticism: 39.

SOURCE.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/15/1084570997484.html.

COMMENT.

One cannot but wonder how far better the situation may have been if the US did more to try to establish peace accords in the Middle East, instead of merely propping up Israel.

Bush has provided nothing but vague and unfulfilled rhetoric.
New Auburnland
19-05-2004, 10:20
The US will never be able to vote for a resolution that would have negative effects on Israel because of the Jewish grip on the media in the USA.
Nebbyland
19-05-2004, 11:16
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
This is unfortunate, but it does happen in urban combat. Of course, for a clueless net addict whose ideas of what war is like are straight out of Hollywood movies (which covers most of the NS posters), the possibility of accidental killing may seem unlikely, but all I can say to that is a big :roll:

You're right it does happen, that doesn't mean that it should, the seemingly random destruction of 90 houses earlier this week (red cross figures, Isreali figures state approx. 40) and the terror that it instilled in those around, the complete destruction of their lives showing them that there is nothing to live for and yet there is still surprise that suicide bombers exist.


Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Israel is one of the main contributors to the UNRWA- so we DO pay.

And as you ask below that makes it ok? Is it alright to kill people and destroy lives entirely provided you pay some of the survivors some money?


Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?
Compensations ARE being paid in such cases. Not right away of course, but through a lawsuit, collective or individual. Of course you don't get to hear about it much in the foreign news- but don't blame us for that :roll:

Oh so once these peoples lives are destroyed, their houses knocked down, their access to jobs removed their villages ileagally occupied so long as they can afford a lawyer they get some money for their dead loved ones.


Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.
You mean focuses even more, increasing the already disproportionate ammount of attention? Did you know, for example, that the Red Cross has 13 offices and 272 people staff in the Palestinian territories for their barely 4 million people, and only ONE office with 10 people staff for the whole of the giant disaster zone that is North Africa? Do you know that there are conflicts of a MUCH larger scale out there that do not receive neither coverage nor attention even remotely comparable to that received by the Palestinians? Ever heard of what is going on in Sudan? More than a MILLION people expelled from their homes over only the last year. But then it doesn't interest you much, does it? Who cares about a million Sudanese when you can protest for 2000 homeless Palestinians? :roll:

Yes more attention should be paid to the troubles in Sudan, that doesn't mean that less time and effort should be spent in Isreal / Palestine. Do you not see the figures that you quote as a chilling indictment of how bad it is.

BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.
Which, of course, makes it perfectly acceptable for Hamas to kill innocents :roll:

No one is claiming that killing innocents is right, infact quite the reverse, however we do expect better than terrorism from a democracy.

Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?
What, pray tell, is the connection?

An evil regeme opressing illegally others. A country doing something that is just morally wrong.

Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)
Free killings? That, my friend, is to be proved. Unless you fall into the category described my me when answering your first statement- that of a clueless net addict.

I'm not a net addict, I cant vouch for the originator of this thread but is there really any need for name calling?


Cheers
Ahh that explains it. You've been drinking, weren't you? :wink:
If they were they came up with some interesting points. I'd like to make it clear that although I object strongly to Isreal's behaviour I in no way condone the actions of Hammas, Islamic Jihad, or any terrorist. I do however expect more respect of human life of a democracy than a terrorist organisation.
Womblingdon
19-05-2004, 13:10
Womblingdon
19-05-2004, 13:12
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
This is unfortunate, but it does happen in urban combat. Of course, for a clueless net addict whose ideas of what war is like are straight out of Hollywood movies (which covers most of the NS posters), the possibility of accidental killing may seem unlikely, but all I can say to that is a big :roll:

You're right it does happen, that doesn't mean that it should, the seemingly random destruction of 90 houses earlier this week (red cross figures, Isreali figures state approx. 40) and the terror that it instilled in those around, the complete destruction of their lives showing them that there is nothing to live for and yet there is still surprise that suicide bombers exist.
At least you were smart enough to add "seemingly" to "random".
The media gives a totally wrong impression on what is going on in Rafah by reporting in such vague terms and not providing maps. The house demolition that goes on now is intended to stop massive arms smuggling from Egypt to Gaza through dozens, if not hundreds, of underground tunnels (I believe there were about 90 of them discovered and destroyed since the beginning of the year). These tunnels' exits are often located in the basements of homes close to the border, and the only way to destroy the tunnel beyond salvaging is by destroying the house. Unfortunate as it is, there is hardly a way around it- though I agree that the house inhabitants should be compensated.
Another group of houses destroyed are those used by Palestinians as firing positions. Again, this is more or less unavoidable.
Finally, the recent destruction of the two Israeli APCs demonstrated that the Philadelphia corridor in its present form (a 125m wide strip of land along the Egyptian border) is not sufficient for effective patrolling, which is why the IDF is planning to widen it to 250m- which will probably affect more Palestinian houses. But again, this is not a "random destruction", but an obvious military necessity, and as such is in no way a violation of any international laws. If it wasn't for Hamas and Islamic Jihad, none of this would be necessery.



Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Israel is one of the main contributors to the UNRWA- so we DO pay.

And as you ask below that makes it ok? Is it alright to kill people and destroy lives entirely provided you pay some of the survivors some money?
I was merely answering a claim that Israel does not pay for damages. Nothing further than that. Besides, your own statement about "killing people and paying some of the survivors" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue discussed as we were talking about property damages, not killings. Way to go :roll:




Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?
Compensations ARE being paid in such cases. Not right away of course, but through a lawsuit, collective or individual. Of course you don't get to hear about it much in the foreign news- but don't blame us for that :roll:

Oh so once these peoples lives are destroyed, their houses knocked down, their access to jobs removed their villages ileagally occupied so long as they can afford a lawyer they get some money for their dead loved ones.
Again the same dishonest manipulation as above, which is why I am not replying. Did you get confused or was it deliberate?



Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.
You mean focuses even more, increasing the already disproportionate ammount of attention? Did you know, for example, that the Red Cross has 13 offices and 272 people staff in the Palestinian territories for their barely 4 million people, and only ONE office with 10 people staff for the whole of the giant disaster zone that is North Africa? Do you know that there are conflicts of a MUCH larger scale out there that do not receive neither coverage nor attention even remotely comparable to that received by the Palestinians? Ever heard of what is going on in Sudan? More than a MILLION people expelled from their homes over only the last year. But then it doesn't interest you much, does it? Who cares about a million Sudanese when you can protest for 2000 homeless Palestinians? :roll:

Yes more attention should be paid to the troubles in Sudan, that doesn't mean that less time and effort should be spent in Isreal / Palestine. Do you not see the figures that you quote as a chilling indictment of how bad it is.[/quote]
I don't. I don't see why the already disproportionately big attention given to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be increased any further if it already dominates the news pushing far larger and more serious events out of the public opinion's focus. At the moment, 40% of all UN resolutions are directed against Israel. Unless you seriously believe that Israel is responsible for 40% of all the wrong doings in the world, it should be obvious that the "world public opinion"s exaggerations and excessive discussion of the Arab-Israeli affairs borders on psychotic obsession, and should be reduced, not increased.



BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.
Which, of course, makes it perfectly acceptable for Hamas to kill innocents :roll:

No one is claiming that killing innocents is right, infact quite the reverse, however we do expect better than terrorism from a democracy.
Of course. The question is whether the moral standards to which you want to hold Israel are realistic and fair. We are in a state of war, you know. It is ridiculous to apply peace time rules and demand that enemy combatants be caught alive at all costs and brought to trial as if they were common burglars.



Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?
What, pray tell, is the connection?

An evil regeme opressing illegally others. A country doing something that is just morally wrong.
Doesn't hold. Silly called Israel an apartheid regime, while there is no ground for such accusation. And it doesn't explain why you desire to single out Israel, of all places where violations of human rights take place, and not other states where the scale of violations is MUCH bigger.


[quote]
Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)
Free killings? That, my friend, is to be proved. Unless you fall into the category described my me when answering your first statement- that of a clueless net addict.

I'm not a net addict, I cant vouch for the originator of this thread but is there really any need for name calling?[/quoet]
My name calling was not aimed at anyone in particular, but at a certain state of mind- that of people who believe that Israel kills Palestinians for the fun of it. It is not a personal offense unless Silly is ready to subscribe to the said view. Besides, name calling would be nothing new between me and Silly, yet in the telegrams we are actually quite friendly ;)
Silly Mountain Walks
28-05-2004, 20:40
[

I'm not a net addict, I cant vouch for the originator of this thread but is there really any need for name calling?[/quoet]
My name calling was not aimed at anyone in particular, but at a certain state of mind- that of people who believe that Israel kills Palestinians for the fun of it. It is not a personal offense unless Silly is ready to subscribe to the said view. Besides, name calling would be nothing new between me and Silly, yet in the telegrams we are actually quite friendly ;)[/quote]


Will reply in a larger post when I am back home (in Bucuresti now after a climb). All the best to ya but, as you can think, I don't agree when you to
say that Israel does pay for it (not a $). About the destuction off 100's of houses because tunnels are under them: the tunnel story is like Saddams WMD's, everybody speeks about them but nobody saw one. BTW, a Israeli minister said that Palestinians moved a 120mm canon trough a manhole tunnel: this has to be the most stupid millitary quote ever. A 120mm "hauwitzer" (his words) is the size of a bulldozer....

About the Apartheid regime: ask the South Africans why they compare en masse Israel and the Apartheid regime...they have experience...


Since when am I a "net addict"? Has been perhaps 3 times on NS last 2 months (wich it was more but I have enough about the right wing domination of NS and lack time).

Indeed, Nebyland I send Womblindon my best wishes and hope that he and his loved ones are safe 8)
Dragoneia
28-05-2004, 20:42
I dont have no clue about almost anything that deals with isreal more than a few months ago..what scares me is they have nukes dont they? :?
Silly Mountain Walks
28-05-2004, 20:43
I dont have no clue about almost anything that deals with isreal more than a few months ago..what scares me is they have nukes dont they? :?

Yes, and it is illegal for them to have them, other countries are invaded for les...
Purly Euclid
28-05-2004, 21:13
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?

Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.

BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.

Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?

Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)

Cheers
Israel needs to defend itself, no question about that. However, the Gaza strip has consistently given Israel more of a headache than the West Bank. Sharon tried conjuring up a withdrawl proposal, but the rest of the Likud party refuses. Sharon, therefore, has to protect Israeli citizens in the area. Sharon is really a victim of the rest of the Likud here. After all, even though many may not be happy with Israel's current action in Gaza, many more would hate it if most of the Israeli settlers were killed. It's really a situation that has spun out of even Sharon's control.
BTW, Israel is a "so-called democracy" for a reason: they're really a republic. I think that the more democratic a government is (beyond a republic, anyhow), the more likely it'll be dysfunctional, and lead to this shit. Israel may be suffering from being too democratic, but it's too early to tell.
Deeloleo
28-05-2004, 21:13
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.That's a fair point. If you believe that, why condemn one and not the other? Do the "disadvantages" of the Palestinians forgive thier attrocities? I don't think so. Why not end all support for either side?
MKULTRA
28-05-2004, 21:25
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.That's a fair point. If you believe that, why condemn one and not the other? Do the "disadvantages" of the Palestinians forgive thier attrocities? I don't think so. Why not end all support for either side?Israel holds all the cards--they can end the whole thing overnite just by doing the right thing--intsead Ariel Sharon forces people to die from never ending terrorist assaults
Silly Mountain Walks
28-05-2004, 21:29
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?

Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.

BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.

Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?

Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)

Cheers
Israel needs to defend itself, no question about that. However, the Gaza strip has consistently given Israel more of a headache than the West Bank. Sharon tried conjuring up a withdrawl proposal, but the rest of the Likud party refuses. Sharon, therefore, has to protect Israeli citizens in the area. Sharon is really a victim of the rest of the Likud here. After all, even though many may not be happy with Israel's current action in Gaza, many more would hate it if most of the Israeli settlers were killed. It's really a situation that has spun out of even Sharon's control.
BTW, Israel is a "so-called democracy" for a reason: they're really a republic. I think that the more democratic a government is (beyond a republic, anyhow), the more likely it'll be dysfunctional, and lead to this shit. Israel may be suffering from being too democratic, but it's too early to tell.

I agree with your view. This makes me think: should not the PM of a country be the PM of all ots citizens, not only the one of his party?
Sharon shows here that the acts of his government will be decided by a minority of the Israeli electors: Likoed. He asks likoed what to do...(how much people of the Israel society is Likoed?..., a minority, just lik ethe other parties).

In fact, this is the pure example of absoltism: you ask your electors to decide (instead of the electors of the gov.coalition).

I thought that it was fashionable to say in the democratic world after you've been elected: "I want to be the President/PM of all of you."

Undoubtly this does not count for Sharon, since gov. decissions depend on one party referendum results...
Deeloleo
28-05-2004, 21:30
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.That's a fair point. If you believe that, why condemn one and not the other? Do the "disadvantages" of the Palestinians forgive thier attrocities? I don't think so. Why not end all support for either side?Israel holds all the cards--they can end the whole thing overnite just by doing the right thing--intsead Ariel Sharon forces people to die from never ending terrorist assaultsWhy does Israel hold all of the cards? Every Muslim nation in the world and seemingly every nation on Earth, besides the US supports the Palestinians. What is this right thing that you wrote about? For the nation of Israel to destroy itsself? That is the stated goal of the Palestinians. If this were a battle for a Palestinian state, they could have had it and refused. Hey, I can see why you think the way you do. Everyone likes an under-dog, unless it is biting them.
Purly Euclid
28-05-2004, 21:56
Do you agree?
Do you agree calling the killing of 3 children "collateral dammage"?(the children that where murdered while taking the loundry in).
Do you agree that the UN pays for this destruction by giving those victims shelter? And not Israel?
Do you think that Israel has to pay those victims instead of not paying a dime like now?

Don't you think it is time now that the world focusses on human rights in Gazza and the West Bank? Even the biggest allie of Israel condems now.

BTW, don't reply with a " Hammas too kills innocents". Off course, but Hammas is not a state, Israel is a so called democracy.

Your opinion? Does the free democracies of the west should boycot like they did with the other apartheid regime in SA?

Lots of questions, what is your opinion (read carefully, it is about the killings of Tsahal, not about the Palestinian acts, I ask your opinion about the free killings of Arrab children by a so called democracy, do you condemn or not?)

Cheers
Israel needs to defend itself, no question about that. However, the Gaza strip has consistently given Israel more of a headache than the West Bank. Sharon tried conjuring up a withdrawl proposal, but the rest of the Likud party refuses. Sharon, therefore, has to protect Israeli citizens in the area. Sharon is really a victim of the rest of the Likud here. After all, even though many may not be happy with Israel's current action in Gaza, many more would hate it if most of the Israeli settlers were killed. It's really a situation that has spun out of even Sharon's control.
BTW, Israel is a "so-called democracy" for a reason: they're really a republic. I think that the more democratic a government is (beyond a republic, anyhow), the more likely it'll be dysfunctional, and lead to this shit. Israel may be suffering from being too democratic, but it's too early to tell.

I agree with your view. This makes me think: should not the PM of a country be the PM of all ots citizens, not only the one of his party?
Sharon shows here that the acts of his government will be decided by a minority of the Israeli electors: Likoed. He asks likoed what to do...(how much people of the Israel society is Likoed?..., a minority, just lik ethe other parties).

In fact, this is the pure example of absoltism: you ask your electors to decide (instead of the electors of the gov.coalition).

I thought that it was fashionable to say in the democratic world after you've been elected: "I want to be the President/PM of all of you."

Undoubtly this does not count for Sharon, since gov. decissions depend on one party referendum results...
Or multiparty action of the Knesset. It's just that most of the legislators in the Knesset are Likud. And I must say, if I were an Israeli a few years back, I'd vote Likud. I'd hate to be terrorized by the Palestinians, and wish for, at the very least, preemptive action.
Stephistan
28-05-2004, 23:18
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.That's a fair point. If you believe that, why condemn one and not the other? Do the "disadvantages" of the Palestinians forgive thier attrocities? I don't think so. Why not end all support for either side?

I would most certainly agree with this position. Either they will all kill each other or they will find a solution.. as long as either side has any support for really what amounts to terrorism on both sides.. it's never going to end.
Silly Mountain Walks
29-05-2004, 02:11
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.That's a fair point. If you believe that, why condemn one and not the other? Do the "disadvantages" of the Palestinians forgive thier attrocities? I don't think so. Why not end all support for either side?Israel holds all the cards--they can end the whole thing overnite just by doing the right thing--intsead Ariel Sharon forces people to die from never ending terrorist assaultsWhy does Israel hold all of the cards? Every Muslim nation in the world and seemingly every nation on Earth, besides the US supports the Palestinians. What is this right thing that you wrote about? For the nation of Israel to destroy itsself? That is the stated goal of the Palestinians. If this were a battle for a Palestinian state, they could have had it and refused. Hey, I can see why you think the way you do. Everyone likes an under-dog, unless it is biting them.


"Every nation in the world is against Israel besides the US", Well rightwing-fascist kiddo, I am done with ya since your point of view says that every neutral view of other western states on Israel is "de facto" one against Israel.

First of all you are of topic and did not respect my questions...(you bring in the pro or contra Israel right wing topic). I tought you could read as the 12 year olld you are...again you are of topic and simplifying the debate to something else..

Let me say to you that most of the free nations debate about this, not about your so called pro or against Israel thing. But I understand that the topic is to difficult for you and I respect your simple thoughts too, please do respect ours too and avoid my topic. Holocaust deniers and extreme propaganda like yours will urge me to ask the mods to close this topic.

My questions was asked at serious debaters, not at the extreme right or the extreme left or other propagandamonsters/liars.

Please abort and stay out of a discussion that is above your level!
Phaedra H
29-05-2004, 02:29
Or multiparty action of the Knesset. It's just that most of the legislators in the Knesset are Likud. And I must say, if I were an Israeli a few years back, I'd vote Likud. I'd hate to be terrorized by the Palestinians, and wish for, at the very least, preemptive action.

I think that you misunderstand this deliberatly. He was talking about the Knesset and the coalition with other parties like Shas aso. Sharon does not listen to the majority but only to his own Likoed. And, like said, Likoed is only the biggest party in the government, not the only one.

With this referendum, Sharon lied to all the governement partners, his actions are only the result of the will of Likoed. By this, Sharon and Likoed showed that he is not the leader "of all Israelis" or the PM of all like PM's say in the free world after elections.

Yes, SMW, he better avoids the topic because he is somewhere lost here and does not know the difference between facts and political propaganda :roll:
Deeloleo
29-05-2004, 02:37
.....And this surprises any one? Not me.. The Israeli's are just the same terrorists that the Palestinians are, they just have better weapons.. they're both the same.That's a fair point. If you believe that, why condemn one and not the other? Do the "disadvantages" of the Palestinians forgive thier attrocities? I don't think so. Why not end all support for either side?Israel holds all the cards--they can end the whole thing overnite just by doing the right thing--intsead Ariel Sharon forces people to die from never ending terrorist assaultsWhy does Israel hold all of the cards? Every Muslim nation in the world and seemingly every nation on Earth, besides the US supports the Palestinians. What is this right thing that you wrote about? For the nation of Israel to destroy itsself? That is the stated goal of the Palestinians. If this were a battle for a Palestinian state, they could have had it and refused. Hey, I can see why you think the way you do. Everyone likes an under-dog, unless it is biting them.


"Every nation in the world is against Israel besides the US", Well rightwing-fascist kiddo, I am done with ya since your point of view says that every neutral view of other western states on Israel is "de facto" one against Israel.

First of all you are of topic and did not respect my questions...(you bring in the pro or contra Israel right wing topic). I tought you could read as the 12 year olld you are...again you are of topic and simplifying the debate to something else..

Let me say to you that most of the free nations debate about this, not about your so called pro or against Israel thing. But I understand that the topic is to difficult for you and I respect your simple thoughts too, please do respect ours too and avoid my topic. Holocaust deniers and extreme propaganda like yours will urge me to ask the mods to close this topic.

My questions was asked at serious debaters, not at the extreme right or the extreme left or other propagandamonsters/liars.

Please abort and stay out of a discussion that is above your level!Well, let me interject this before I am unceremoniously and with absolutely no authority booted from this discussion by you, my oh so arrogant friend, that opposition to the Israelis only recourse against the suicide bombings is, in fact, support for the criminals who commit them. What other method could one employ to combat a suicide attack, other than to punish those who sold the lives of thier loved ones to terrorist organisations?

Second, I didn't respond at all to your post, since I've made my view of this very clear on other ocassaions. And, certainly to discuss wheter or not one supports the Palestinians or the Israelis is a right-wing topic alone. Noone from the left would ever make the claim that US support for Israel is unjust. All the while they do nothing to help those poor , oppressed terroritsts.

Let me say, that most free nations don't have citizens killed by Palestinian terrorists on a regular basis. Your opposition to the Israeli response is nothing more than propaganda. I understand that you only see one side of this. And, I know, the Israelis are monsters, sure. You see things only in moral absolutes. The Israelis deal with these attacks in the only way available.

Now, to sum, try not to directly confront minds more open than your and your widely indoctrinated, left wing view. You will only suceed in making an ass of yourself.
Purly Euclid
29-05-2004, 03:23
Or multiparty action of the Knesset. It's just that most of the legislators in the Knesset are Likud. And I must say, if I were an Israeli a few years back, I'd vote Likud. I'd hate to be terrorized by the Palestinians, and wish for, at the very least, preemptive action.

I think that you misunderstand this deliberatly. He was talking about the Knesset and the coalition with other parties like Shas aso. Sharon does not listen to the majority but only to his own Likoed. And, like said, Likoed is only the biggest party in the government, not the only one.

With this referendum, Sharon lied to all the governement partners, his actions are only the result of the will of Likoed. By this, Sharon and Likoed showed that he is not the leader "of all Israelis" or the PM of all like PM's say in the free world after elections.

Yes, SMW, he better avoids the topic because he is somewhere lost here and does not know the difference between facts and political propaganda :roll:
Well then, this just shows that Israel has, as I feared, teetered toward mob rule. I'd be very angry toward the Palestinians if I were an Israeli, but I'd rather express my opinions, and see how politicians would apply it. However, this is certainly not the case. Rather, the Israeli population, mostly represented by the Likud, are running the country, and they seem to need some strong help.
But the US withdrawing aid isn't the solution. Nor is talking of peace at this stage of the conflict. Rather, the US should act as a mediator on how to reform the government. The Israelis, for example, have no set constitution. Having them draw it up is one. Whatever the case, they need to act now. Otherwise, I fear that with mob rule and ever-increasing division, the Israelis will be driven back into the sea.
Silly Mountain Walks
29-05-2004, 03:57
Well, let me interject this before I am unceremoniously and with absolutely no authority booted from this discussion by you, my oh so arrogant friend, that opposition to the Israelis only recourse against the suicide bombings is, in fact, support for the criminals who commit them. What other method could one employ to combat a suicide attack, other than to punish those who sold the lives of thier loved ones to terrorist organisations?

Again, you are making a fool of yourself an you give the NS community a good example of your low level. Again, this topic is not about sucide bombings but about the houses that are blown up and the innocent people that have to find shelter in the UN camps that are payed with EU money.(extremists like you call the UN and the EU "terrorists"). You, as an extreme left and right wing person (that is where fascisme and Stalinisme are best friends) are shouting very loud at a opinion that condams violism from both sides and you are pro one side, not neutral. Your propaganda speeks for itself, Goebels must have been one of your ancesters.


Second, I didn't respond at all to your post, since I've made my view of this very clear on other ocassaions. And, certainly to discuss wheter or not one supports the Palestinians or the Israelis is a right-wing topic alone. Noone from the left would ever make the claim that US support for Israel is unjust. All the while they do nothing to help those poor , oppressed terroritsts.

I read here that you are quite an underachiever in polical insight since you bring the discussion under the label of "a right wing topic". I understand that you don't understand, it is difficult for some people. Try some information, might help, and I am not talking about your "The daily Midwest Farmer" review. I also mention that you call the terrorist "poor opressed people" and conclude thereby that you support terrorisme (you said it yourself here).


Let me say, that most free nations don't have citizens killed by Palestinian terrorists on a regular basis.
Well, most free people aren't tortured the way like they do in Abu (let's pronounce it like your hero, W. "Abu Grrr...aib") and other example prissons of the US regime. (do you know Amnesty and human right watch or the red cross?, most of your countrymen do, perhaps not in your farm, but the others do know in the FREE WORLD).


Your opposition to the Israeli response is nothing more than propaganda. I understand that you only see one side of this. And, I know, the Israelis are monsters, sure. You see things only in moral absolutes. The Israelis deal with these attacks in the only way available.

Why do you call the Israelis monsters? Nobody here said this so far. I know some fine debaters there like Womblindon. He never calls the opposite site monsters but gives his opinion in a informed way, the opposite of you. With this, you are ridiculising yoourself once again, you put people words in the mouth that they never said. Next thing you will say is that I am a antisemite . Ok you are a young poster but let me say to you that I posted some very painfull things and facts against neonazies like our old "Shorgie"that are showing that I don't belong in the corner that you put me in. Again, that is why you are a communist or the right wing Nazi friend of them.


Now, to sum, try not to directly confront minds more open than your and your widely indoctrinated, left wing view. You will only suceed in making an ass of yourself.


Well, I think you just give the NS community a good example of a frustrated man that does not respect the NS rule that says that a poster starter can ask the Mods to abort the topic when rascists or other extremists like extreme right and extreme left (you match both, Stalin&Hitler). By this a lack of respect to all former posters and the mods that I respect (you just try to denie their authority, that is what I read in your post).

I find it very pitty that I have to ask the mods to close this topic, wich is my right. I would have liked t continue this topic with persons like Womblingdon and other informed posters. But I see that your arrogance and propaganda (yes, your opinion is not neutral, it is all politics, nothing factual) have a will to disturb in the most Goebels like way (fits you) this so far good topic.

Again, learn some respect and try not to put centrist people in a extreme corner of the political specter in wich they don't belong. And do your best to read the original topic and try to find some arguments, your mudtrowing destroyued the topic and putted me against the wall to defend myself as being a non extreme right/lefty person.

My time costs money but I am still prepared to defend myself and other good debaters against spoilerts like you.

In fact, you are a anti semite.
I can explain it why you are, you just gave your extreme right deniers the best ammo they can have. You are the worst defender of Israel and each word of your hate fits the guys that makes the pizza bombhs. I hope that your community will give you the $ to move to a city and study.

It will open your eyes (if you want) and give you the lessons that you will need when you wan't to have a informed, multilinguistic eye on the world.


Womblingdon, sory, i will ask to sto this topic because persons like Deelelo or other extreme communist/fascist tone is destroying this topic.

BE SAFE! (nice to hre from D. that I am a communist now, before some, stupid, guys called me a US Texan :wink: )

BTW you said something like "don't make an ass off yourself"
Ever thought about the opinions in the ass free world? Between you and me, who do you think the posters will find an "ass"...

With all your experience, you will know the answer!

Something for you "Beate paupere spiritu"
And yes you will have to use bablefish aso. for something I know by hart and fits you well :twisted:
Stephistan
29-05-2004, 04:36
Locked at the request of the author of the thread...

Stephanie
Game Moderator