NationStates Jolt Archive

link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&u=/ap/20040517/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sarin_2&printer=1)

28 minutes ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq - A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq (news - web sites). "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.

edited to fix window

CNN Report (http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Car+bomb%A0kills+Iraqi+Governing+Council+leader+-+May+17%2C+2004&expire=&urlID=10271581&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2004%2FWORLD%2Fmeast%2F05%2F17%2Firaq.main%2Findex.html&partnerID=2006)

Coalition forces in Iraq find sarin gas device
Car bomb kills Iraqi Governing Council leader


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- American-led coalition forces in Iraq found sarin gas in an artillery round that was rigged as an improvised explosive device, U.S. Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Monday.

The device went off before it could be disabled, Kimmitt said, causing a "small dispersal" of the nerve agent. Two members of an explosives ordnance team were treated for minor exposure, he said.

Kimmitt said the artillery round was of an old style that Saddam Hussein's regime had declared it no longer had after the Persian Gulf War. He said it was designed to explode after being fired from an artillery piece and that its effectiveness as an improvised explosive device was "limited."

Kimmitt did not say where the weapon was found nor did he say if it originated in Iraq.

(edited to fix window)

Hmm this could be scary.. if terrorists are now bringing into Iraq chemical weapons.. the stakes could get a whole lot higher! :shock:

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33195-2004May17.html), Bloomberg
(http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=ay_W0ZyuIB6Q&refer=top_world_news), and msnbc (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808/) also reporting.

Several accounts say "several days ago".

Hmm this could be scary.. if terrorists are now bringing into Iraq chemical weapons.. the stakes could get a whole lot higher! :shock:

Who said they brought it in?..the IED came from a 155 mm artillery shell, which could only come from a chemical munitions depot..the type of shell that Iraq had in it's possesion at one time....Odds are this shell came from in-country itself..possibly from a bunker of the very WoMD's that everyone says isn't there.

Definitely troubling. Still, I'm not quite sure if it's the tip of an iceberg or simply something that had been hanging around for awhile and finally managed to get itself used.

Hmm this could be scary.. if terrorists are now bringing into Iraq chemical weapons.. the stakes could get a whole lot higher! :shock:

Who said they brought it in?..the IED came from a 155 mm artillery shell, which could only come from a chemical munitions depot..the type of shell that Iraq had in it's possesion at one time....Odds are this shell came from in-country itself..possibly from a bunker of the very WoMD's that everyone says isn't there.

Yep. All the reports are syaing it was a 155mm shell of the type used by the Iraqi army.

And, while I don't think I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist, given the current panic mode in the White House, I am rather suspicious of the timing of this incident.

The reports are saying the event happened "several days ago", which adds to the suspicious nature...

I smell a rat... timing seems a little suspect to me.. Zeppistan and I have talked about this very thing many times..

Stephanie - So what do you think will happen if people start figuring out what a lying sack of chit Bush is?

Zeppistan - Well they'll plant WMD in Iraq of course, if people buy it, that might even help him to try and justify the war

Stephanie - Yeah, but people wouldn't really be that stupid to believe after all this time all of a sudden in the heat of a scandal NOW they find WMD?

Zeppistan- Look at what they got them to believe from the get go.

Stephanie - Indeed.

I'm not buying it came from Iraq for two seconds!

And, while I don't think I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist, given the current panic mode in the White House, I am rather suspicious of the timing of this incident.

Or mebbe that the insurgents are getting more desperate....the Iraqi General we got has Fallujah almost secured...that leaves Karbala, and Najaf and we're routing them there...that pretty much raps up the Mahdi Army of Al-Sadr...

No...this baby is an Iraqi baby...no getting around that.

CNN tends to report news like that 2-3 days after it actually happens. Suscribe to one of the free military net work services if you want that sort of data right away, or try BBC.

BBC, my favorite news source, is also running with the story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3722255.stm

They're reporting a senior coalition source as saying the round dated back to the Iraq-Iran war and it's possible whoever had it didn't even know what they had.

I smell a rat... timing seems a little suspect to me.. Zeppistan and I have talked about this very thing many times..

Stephanie - So what do you think will happen if people start figuring out what a lying sack of chit Bush is?

Zeppistan - Well they'll plant WMD in Iraq of course, if people buy it, that might even help him to try and justify the war

Stephanie - Yeah, but people wouldn't really be that stupid to believe after all this time all of a sudden in the heat of a scandal NOW they find WMD?

Zeppistan- Look at what they got them to believe from the get go.

Stephanie - Indeed.

I'm not buying it came from Iraq for two seconds!

Ya know..you two just won't concede anything will ya..geesh...just mebbe..just mebbe your conspiracy theories are the crap that they are...and just mebbe..just mebbe....former Iraqi Republican Guard managed to cough up a chemical warhead from an old munitions depot, my feeling is..Gods...no on just puts up one shell...a typical bunker can hold a few hundred of those shells...

meh... It's only one shell. It could have been stolen several years ago from an Iraqi truck. Someone just got around to trying to use it.
Fortunately with not much success. It doesn't indicate a smoking gun.

BBC, my favorite news source, is also running with the story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3722255.stm

They're reporting a senior coalition source as saying the round dated back to the Iraq-Iran war and it's possible whoever had it didn't even know what they had.


I'm personally not into conspiracy theories myself, they make for a good read and that's about it.. but two points.

1) Timing.. very suspect

2) Even if it was an old shell left over from 89.. that doesn't mean Saddam knew it existed.. and Sarin of all agents is probably the most harmless. If treated quickly most people recover just fine.. and this was not enough to justify the war even if they do manage to pull this off.. (which every fiber of my being is telling me this is a set-up or it was brought into Iraq recently)

After all that has happened, this current administration have proven they can't be trusted to tell the truth. Why should any of us believe a word they say? They have NO crediblity left.

meh... It's only one shell. It could have been stolen several years ago from an Iraqi truck. Someone just got around to trying to use it.
Fortunately with not much success. It doesn't indicate a smoking gun.

Oh..I'm not saying it's the "smoking gun"...it may be something that came from an old stockpile...but then again....chemical shells are not stored with the timer...they must be placed separately...so for this one to have an active timer means they had it recently activated...which means there are more of them.

I smell a rat... timing seems a little suspect to me.. Zeppistan and I have talked about this very thing many times..

Stephanie - So what do you think will happen if people start figuring out what a lying sack of chit Bush is?

Zeppistan - Well they'll plant WMD in Iraq of course, if people buy it, that might even help him to try and justify the war

Stephanie - Yeah, but people wouldn't really be that stupid to believe after all this time all of a sudden in the heat of a scandal NOW they find WMD?

Zeppistan- Look at what they got them to believe from the get go.

Stephanie - Indeed.

I'm not buying it came from Iraq for two seconds!

I see what you're saying, Steph, and I agree with you and Zepp, however I'm just not sure that's what this particular incident is. While the timing of this discovery is, to say the least, suspiciously coincidental, at present it seems a much more probably answer is that whoever rigged this IED using this shell had no idea what they actually had on their hands. I would think that, when BushCo is finally willing to stoop low enough to actually plant WMDs in Iraq, they would want something a little...well, you know, flashier. There was only a small amount of agent released and it was an old shell, neither of these really gives a justification for invasion. Now, if they somehow magically "CSI" this to a secret underground stockpile of neurotoxins, infectious agents, nuclear warheads and the Lindberg Baby, then I'm gonna have to call BS on it.

Hmm this could be scary.. if terrorists are now bringing into Iraq chemical weapons.. the stakes could get a whole lot higher! :shock:

Who said they brought it in?..the IED came from a 155 mm artillery shell, which could only come from a chemical munitions depot..the type of shell that Iraq had in it's possesion at one time....Odds are this shell came from in-country itself..possibly from a bunker of the very WoMD's that everyone says isn't there.

But, but, but.. If it wasn't Terrorists, then it would mean that Saint Saddam, the rightful ruler of the Middle East, was LYING when he said he had no more weapons of Mass Destruction! Entire Political Careers could be ruined if we ever admit that Saddam had them all along! So, yeah, it HAD to have been terrorists importing it from some vicious, neighboring country, like, Israel, maybe... :wink:

I smell a rat... timing seems a little suspect to me.. Zeppistan and I have talked about this very thing many times..

Stephanie - So what do you think will happen if people start figuring out what a lying sack of chit Bush is?

Zeppistan - Well they'll plant WMD in Iraq of course, if people buy it, that might even help him to try and justify the war

Stephanie - Yeah, but people wouldn't really be that stupid to believe after all this time all of a sudden in the heat of a scandal NOW they find WMD?

Zeppistan- Look at what they got them to believe from the get go.

Stephanie - Indeed.

I'm not buying it came from Iraq for two seconds!

One big problem with this line of reasoning...
Where did the Sarin come from, then?
Or, are you claiming that there was no IED at all, and the entire incident is faked?
We don't have any more stockpiles of the stuff, and nobody else in the region was making it in those quantities....

On the other hand, the general tactic you discussed worked VERY well for 'Slick Willy', every time there was a headline about Monica Lewinsky, we suddenly 'found' a terrorist plot that we had to respond to with cruise missiles...

Steph..Zep....believe me...I would love to be proved without a shadow of a doubt I was wrong for supporting a war that could have gotten my sons killed...I would hope by now that despite some outburts of temper you'd realize I'm not some bloodthirsty savage..err..wait a minute I'm descended from bloodthirty savages so let's say I didn't welcome this war but it nonetheless came upon us.

You see..I understand your positions on the war hinge on the fact that there were ZERO WoMD's in Iraq..and that any such find must therefore come from outside the country...else your position starts getting weak. So any find of WoMD's is automatically held suspect, even you have said so...so even if a genuine find is found you will discount it saying it was planted..when just mebbe..just mebbe it was an Iraqi weapon..it did come from an Iraqi bunker...and it was there during the time Saddam said he had ZERO WoMD's

Oh yes, because one "minor" amount of Sarin gas found in "one" shell was worth 200 Billion dollars of the American tax payers money, was worth over 700 young American lives and for what? What does the US really get out of all this? They've unseated one man.. and found one shell with a minor amount of Sarin gas in it. Oh yeah, I'm sure that was well worth it. When the likely end of this will be first civil war and then followed by a theocracy.. way to go Bush! You just made the problem worse!

What is wrong with people? Oh right... they're not actually the ones having to die for Bush's lies! This small (not even deadly amount) find doesn't negate the fact that this administration is full of dishonest lying people. I have other words for them, but there are children on this site.

One big problem with this line of reasoning...
Where did the Sarin come from, then?
Or, are you claiming that there was no IED at all, and the entire incident is faked?
We don't have any more stockpiles of the stuff, and nobody else in the region was making it in those quantities....Well I think that the implication is that it came from America

On the other hand, the general tactic you discussed worked VERY well for 'Slick Willy', every time there was a headline about Monica Lewinsky, we suddenly 'found' a terrorist plot that we had to respond to with cruise missiles...See. It worked before, why wouldn't they use it now?

It's interesting the timing on all this. First we have the prison abuse scandal breaking, then we have the Nick Berg tape, then came a huge rash of anti-Rumsfeld/Bush stories in conservative papers like the NY Post as well as an article by Sy Hersh (which I'm going to drone on until someone tells me why it isn't enough evidence to have Rummy, Wolfie and Rice all fired and Bush impeached) linking not only the abuses to the White House, but discovering a systemic breaking of Geneva Conventions endorsed by Rummy, then we have the issue of the unexploded shell with Sarin in it and now we have the assassination of the head of the Iraqi governing council and efforts by Bush and Blair to accelerate the creating of Iraqi security forces and a drive to speed-up the change over process. All of this has broken within the last two weeks.

What the hell is going on over there? :shock:

(lets see if the server will co-operate this time - I have been trying 20 minutes to post... :evil:)

The IED appears to have been a 155mm artillery shell wraped in platic explosives. Because of this, it did not explode "properly", preventing the full effect of the bianary agents.

I think its pretty clear whoever did this was not familiar with the handling of these weapons. Either the bomber either did not know he had, or did not know how to use it.
The US military has "mislocated" some chemical weapons (mostly old weapons disposed of by burial). Considering the efficacy of most militaries, it would not be surprising if Iraq had some number of lost shells running around. Therfore, it was most likely an old shell either forgotten in an invantory or lost somewhere along the line. Not the "major stockpiles" used as a pretense for the war, but not the non-existant WMDs either.

Oh yes, because one "minor" amount of Sarin gas found in "one" shell was worth 200 Billion dollars of the American tax payers money, was worth over 700 young American lives and for what? What does the US really get out of all this? They've unseated one man.. and found one shell with a minor amount of Sarin gas in it. Oh yeah, I'm sure that was well worth it. When the likely end of this will be first civil war and then followed by a theocracy.. way to go Bush! You just made the problem worse!

What is wrong with people? Oh right... they're not actually the ones having to die for Bush's lies! This small (not even deadly amount) find doesn't negate the fact that this administration is full of dishonest lying people. I have other words for them, but there are children on this site.

Sorry, but WMD was never the real reason behind the war, it was just an excuse...
The real reason was that Saddam really, really, needed to go...
and if you don't see the reason behind that, you really need to examine just what the man was doing to his own country...

Is George an honest, decent person? Probably not (he did become President, after all...)!
Does that mean that we must oppose EVERYTHING he does, regardless of the facts? Probably not...

One big problem with this line of reasoning...
Where did the Sarin come from, then?
Or, are you claiming that there was no IED at all, and the entire incident is faked?
We don't have any more stockpiles of the stuff, and nobody else in the region was making it in those quantities....Well I think that the implication is that it came from America

On the other hand, the general tactic you discussed worked VERY well for 'Slick Willy', every time there was a headline about Monica Lewinsky, we suddenly 'found' a terrorist plot that we had to respond to with cruise missiles...See. It worked before, why wouldn't they use it now?

Well, of COURSE, why didn't I think of that?
Never mind that we DID destroy our Stockpiles of Sarin back before Saddam even took office... It MUST have come from America!
After all, we all know that Saddam was as pure as the driven snow...

Come on, guys, get real!
Saddam declared that he had destroyed EVERY shell with nerve gas in it, and now we find one...
Chemical rounds do NOT remain inert without lots of maintenance!
The gas would have leaked out through the seals if it had been 'left over' since 1989, or 'fallen off a truck somewhere'...

Reality might interfere with your pet Conspiracy Theories, but, I'm sorry, that does not allow you to ignore everything that does not fit in with those theories...
and this particular one is giving Conspiracy Theorists a bad name!

Now, if you want to talk to me about how Bush was nvolved in planning the 9/11 attacks, as a means of getting the 'Patriot Act' passed, I'm all ears... :wink:

I'm not buying it came from Iraq for two seconds!

See my post above. It is quite reasonable to assume the shell was Iraqi.

One big problem with this line of reasoning...
Where did the Sarin come from, then?
Or, are you claiming that there was no IED at all, and the entire incident is faked?
We don't have any more stockpiles of the stuff, and nobody else in the region was making it in those quantities....


On the otherhand, we still have fairly significant stockpiles, as we have only disposed of something like 20% of our Category 1 chemical weapons.

http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/cw.htm

By the way, the amount of Sarin, if properly released, in a 155mm shell is NOT 'minor'... It could have killed a LOT of people, in, say, a railway tunnel...

It was 'minor exposure' to the people trying to dispose of the ordnance, and defuse the warhead...
That means, they were successful in keeping it from going off (else they WOULD be dead!), but that traces of the contents affected them enough to make a Hospital trip a good idea...

It was not for lack of trying to kill us that we didn't lose more good people...

By the way, the amount of Sarin, if properly released, in a 155mm shell is NOT 'minor'... It could have killed a LOT of people, in, say, a railway tunnel...

It was 'minor exposure' to the people trying to dispose of the ordnance, and defuse the warhead...
That means, they were successful in keeping it from going off (else they WOULD be dead!), but that traces of the contents affected them enough to make a Hospital trip a good idea...

It was not for lack of trying to kill us that we didn't lose more good people...

No, actually, if you read all the articles, they are all say that a "minor" amount of Sarin was released from the shell, which argues that it was an old shell, improperly maintained and less than fully potent. The articles are also saying that it did indeed "go off".

Bianary shells are designed for long term storage. Bianary agents are designed to be mixed via the rotation of the shell after being fired, not after being laid on the side of a road and blown up.

http://globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040517-sarin-iraq.htm

Saddam Hussein admitted he produced between 790 and 812 tons of sarin. But much of the early production of the chemical was contaminated and incapable of being stored for long periods. The United Nations destroyed 70 tons of Iraq's sarin stockpile from 1992 to 1994.

Hans Blix and David Kay, two former United Nations weapons inspectors, suggested Monday the shell the Army discovered was likely to be a stray scavenged by militants from a weapons dump.

At GlobalSecurity.org, Pike noted U.S. troops last year discovered stray mustard gas rockets, so the discovery of a stray sarin shell would not be unprecedented.

But during Saddam's regime, Pike said chemical weapons were probably under the close control of Saddam's elite Special Security Organization or the Special Republican Guards who now are among the militants continuing the fight against U.S. forces.

Plus all you ever wanted to know about [url=http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/cw-nerve.htm]nerve agents[/quote] but were afraid to ask.

Hmm this could be scary.. if terrorists are now bringing into Iraq chemical weapons.. the stakes could get a whole lot higher! :shock:

Who said they brought it in?..the IED came from a 155 mm artillery shell, which could only come from a chemical munitions depot..the type of shell that Iraq had in it's possesion at one time....Odds are this shell came from in-country itself..possibly from a bunker of the very WoMD's that everyone says isn't there.

One shell with Sarin gas.

Just one.

You tell me...
How hard would it be for Saddam to misplace ONE shell.
If such a bunker exists, why wouldnt we have found it after all that searching?

Is it, or is it not, just as likely to have come from another country?

This may be the only one found.

If so, would you then say that Bush's invasion of Iraq was justified with the exscuse of him possessing WMD's?

Keep in mind also, that it would have released "a very small amount" of Sarin.
Thats hardly a "weapon of mass destruction is it?

One shell with Sarin gas.

Just one.

You tell me...
How hard would it be for Saddam to misplace ONE shell.
If such a bunker exists, why wouldnt we have found it after all that searching?
Yes one shell has been found. How many does the US have to find before you will admit Saddam lied about not having ANY WMD? What if it was 100 shells found? Or just one atomic warhead? Would that classify as WMD to you? Sarin if used correctly can be very deadly. Just ask Tokyo.

Even if he did "misplace" it, our Intel said he had WMD, when he said he did not. We were right, he was either wrong or lying.

One shell with Sarin gas.

Just one.

You tell me...
How hard would it be for Saddam to misplace ONE shell.
If such a bunker exists, why wouldnt we have found it after all that searching?
Yes one shell has been found. How many does the US have to find before you will admit Saddam lied about not having ANY WMD? What if it was 100 shells found? Or just one atomic warhead? Would that classify as WMD to you? Sarin if used correctly can be very deadly. Just ask Tokyo.

Even if he did "misplace" it, our Intel said he had WMD, when he said he did not. We were right, he was either wrong or lying.

So you honestly think that the discovery of ONE shell..with a SMALL AMOUNT of Sarin gas..constitutes Saddam possessing weapons (PLURAL) of MASS destruction?

Arent you in the military?

Shouldnt you know better?

That shell could have come from anywhere.....even Hans Blix says that it was likely scavenged.
If there were any more...Saddam would have used them when he had the chance.
Oh guess what.......he didnt.

Thats like one guy in a crowd having a slingshot....and Bush saying that "THE CROWD WAS ARMED!"

You are grasping at the thinnest of straws.

One shell with Sarin gas.

Just one.

You tell me...
How hard would it be for Saddam to misplace ONE shell.
If such a bunker exists, why wouldnt we have found it after all that searching?

Is it, or is it not, just as likely to have come from another country?

This may be the only one found.

If so, would you then say that Bush's invasion of Iraq was justified with the exscuse of him possessing WMD's?

Keep in mind also, that it would have released "a very small amount" of Sarin.
Thats hardly a "weapon of mass destruction is it?

It would be extremely easy for Iraq to have loose chemical shells floating around. As I said above, the US has lost chemical shells. Most US lost weapons were buried when burial was considered to be proper disposal.

It only released a small amount because it was detonated and not fired. As I explained immediately above your post, the rotation involved in being fired is needed to mix the bianary agent.

Aren't we jumping to conclusions a little too early?

It's ONE WMD, not enough to determine if it was the original work of Saddam, terrorists, or the U.S.

One shell with Sarin gas.

Just one.

You tell me...
How hard would it be for Saddam to misplace ONE shell.
If such a bunker exists, why wouldnt we have found it after all that searching?
Yes one shell has been found. How many does the US have to find before you will admit Saddam lied about not having ANY WMD? What if it was 100 shells found? Or just one atomic warhead? Would that classify as WMD to you? Sarin if used correctly can be very deadly. Just ask Tokyo.

Even if he did "misplace" it, our Intel said he had WMD, when he said he did not. We were right, he was either wrong or lying.

US intel as presented, appears to have been way off. The claims were of huge stockpiles and an immediate danger.
Most likely there were a few small, hidden stockpiles, but nothing of the nature claimed by Bush and Co.

[So you honestly think that the discovery of ONE shell..with a SMALL AMOUNT of Sarin gas..constitutes Saddam possessing weapons (PLURAL) of MASS destruction?

Arent you in the military?

Shouldnt you know better?
As posted in the other thread, the military term for WMD is NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical). Saddam had NBC, he lied or "didn't know" he had it, so either way, the US & Co. were justified in the Iraq War.

Yes I am in the military

I am sure it was not just one projectile Saddam misplaced. I just hope our soldiers don't stumble upon any more of these NBC IEDs for their sake and for the safty and health of the Iraqi citizens.

And for those who are claiming it was the US, consider that if it was, the truth will out. Such a stunt would be extraordinarily stupid.

And for those who are claiming it was the US, consider that if it was, the truth will out. Such a stunt would be extraordinarily stupid.
especially considering the outbreak of the Abu Garib photos

One shell with Sarin gas.

Just one.

You tell me...
How hard would it be for Saddam to misplace ONE shell.
If such a bunker exists, why wouldnt we have found it after all that searching?

Is it, or is it not, just as likely to have come from another country?

This may be the only one found.

If so, would you then say that Bush's invasion of Iraq was justified with the exscuse of him possessing WMD's?

Keep in mind also, that it would have released "a very small amount" of Sarin.
Thats hardly a "weapon of mass destruction is it?

It would be extremely easy for Iraq to have loose chemical shells floating around. As I said above, the US has lost chemical shells. Most US lost weapons were buried when burial was considered to be proper disposal.

It only released a small amount because it was detonated and not fired. As I explained immediately above your post, the rotation involved in being fired is needed to mix the bianary agent.

Right.

So its equally possible that this particular shell may have come from anywhere, and may not have been part of any such "hidden repository" of wmd's that have not been discovered.

In fact, would it not be true that it would be far less likely to indeed have come from just such a place?

And for those who are claiming it was the US, consider that if it was, the truth will out. Such a stunt would be extraordinarily stupid.

It amuses me when people think the Iraq war as all a giant conspiracy. They can't even keep what happens in the white house a secret. They can't keep prisoner abuse secret and they've failed to make their president look even remotely like he knows what he's doing.

And for those who are claiming it was the US, consider that if it was, the truth will out. Such a stunt would be extraordinarily stupid.

It amuses me when people think the Iraq war as all a giant conspiracy. They can't even keep what happens in the white house a secret. They can't keep prisoner abuse secret and they've failed to make their president look even remotely like he knows what he's doing.

Exactly. "Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence, and stupidity."

Definitely troubling. Still, I'm not quite sure if it's the tip of an iceberg or simply something that had been hanging around for awhile and finally managed to get itself used.

I think this is exactly right, left overs from the cold war fights where we supplied them with the stuff or left over from the Iran iraq war. I most of the time refuse to be a consparcy theroyist, but the timing is very suspect. There is too much creadable evidence to give it a go yet, but if there are more, then I will change my view.

I think this is exactly right, left overs from the cold war fights where we supplied them with the stuff or left over from the Iran iraq war. I most of the time refuse to be a consparcy theroyist, but the timing is very suspect. There is too much creadable evidence to give it a go yet, but if there are more, then I will change my view.

There have been others:
36 mortar rounds filled with mustard gas were discovered by Danish troops back in January. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1120720,00.html

I believe some empty chemical shells have also been found.

This is why no one cares

It seems they had been buried for at least 10 years.

This is why no one cares

It seems they had been buried for at least 10 years.

Thank you. That is exactly the point I have been repeating through much of this thread. These kinds of shells are most likely in buried dumps or disposal sites scattered around the country. Not in the huge quantities claimed by the Bush administration. But in the small amounts like that.

That is exactly the point I have been repeating through much of this thread. These kinds of shells are most likely in buried dumps or disposal sites scattered around the country. Not in the huge quantities claimed by the Bush administration. But in the small amounts like that.
I think the reason they are buried is not some evil Islamic conspiracy, but because no-one really gives a damn. Say some facility fell into neglect after 1988, got damaged or destroyed during the 1991 war, all the junk and rubble got bulldozed into pits, all the personnel moved on and ended up all over the place doing random stuff, or being dead, and now some insurgents tried their luck knowing the site used to be a munitions dump. And got unlucky, because clearly a conventional explosive shell would have been far more effective, as the chemicals have long since lost their potency.

What I am describing is not exactly a flight of fancy, in fact it is a hell of a lot more credible than massive WMD conspiracies. Why build a conspiracy when simple incompetence and apathy explains everything? Unless the conspiracy is more politically expedient.

There have been others:
36 mortar rounds filled with mustard gas were discovered by Danish troops back in January. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1120720,00.html

I believe some empty chemical shells have also been found.
Except subsequent tests showed the readings were in error. Field diagnostic equipment always errs on the side of caution. The mortar rounds were empty.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

They found more shells with mustard gas...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

They found more shells with mustard gas...

Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group (search) — a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass destruction — and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the gas "ineffective."
Seems like the Iraqis are WMD n00bs.

>"OMG LMAO WE N00K J00!!!"

}"Bring it on!"

>"Um...*poof*...sigh"

:roll:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

They found more shells with mustard gas...
Mortar rounds with mustard gas could hardly be called WMD not when the US and UK are dropping 1000lb bombs. Yes they are chemical agents but not what anyone would call a WMD.
As for the Sarin thing, one shell! Do you know how easy sarin is to make?
Sadam was an evil man but there were no weapons of mass destruction to be found, he was evil, not stupid.
But I stand ready to be proved wrong.