NationStates Jolt Archive

These things you cannot find in regular media, and if you did, you'd probably believe it to be propaganda. But this is authentic stuff. This is written by an Iraqi. I am telling you, the blogs by Iraqi nationals are VERY worth checking out.


My young cousin is a religious Sunni who goes to the mosque and listens to the cleric there every Friday and believes whatever he says, as he’s still young. My uncle always teased his son about this but never prohibited him from doing that. We were talking about different stuff; the kids’ needs, clerics, Americans and the increase in the average income of most Iraqis. My uncle has a somewhat unusual sense of humor that doesn't fit quite well in his somewhat religious family. He winked at me and turned to his son and asked him "What do you think of the Americans?" His son answered, "They are occupiers". "So you think we should fight them?" his father asked. Ibrahim said "No, but I don’t like them". My uncle said, pretending to change the subject "Do you like your new computer that no one shares with you?" "Yes of course dad". "Ok, are you satisfied with the satellite dish receiver we have or do you need a better one?" "This one is fine but I heard there’s a better one that gets more channels" "ok I’ll get you that next week". Then he said, "Is there anything else you’d like to have son?" "No dad I have all that I need". "Ok but how about a car?" Ibrahim was astounded and said "Really? a..a CAR.. for me!?". "Of course for you! I’m too old to drive now and my eyes are not that well and you are the older son. So whom else would it be for!?" "Oh, dad that will be great! When will that happen?" "Just finish your exams and you’ll have it". "I will dad". "Are you happy now son?" "Yes dad, sure I am!" "Then why do you hate the Americans you son of a b***h!? I couldn’t get you a bicycle a year ago, I could hardly feed you and your brothers and sisters. You didn’t know what an apple or a banana tasted like, I couldn’t buy you a damned Pepsi bottle except in occasions, and now you can have all that you wish, and a car of your own! Who do you think made that possible!?" My cousin’s face turned red and didn’t answer as we laughed and I said "What do you think Ibrahim?" He said, "Well it’s true but it’s our money. They are not giving us a charity" and I said "Of course it’s our money, so let’s forget the Billions of dollars they are giving to rebuild Iraq and the efforts they are making to cut down our debts and lets talk about our money. Why didn’t your father, I, my brothers and all the Iraqis have anything worth mentioning before the Americans came?" He said, "Because Saddam used it to buy weapons and build palaces". "There you have it Ibrahim, but Americans are not touching our money. Can you tell me who’s better; the ‘occupiers’ who are helping us or the ‘patriot’ who did all that you know to us?" He said in a faint voice "They are better than Saddam but still they are not Muslims". "So do you want them to be Muslims?" "I wish they were." "Will you fight them to that?" he said, "No, of course not. I don’t like fighting." We didn’t want to pressure and embarrass him further and didn’t go further, as he’s still young but he’s smart and good-natured and will get it soon.

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/archives/2004_05_01_iraqthemodel_archive.html

Wow, yep I'm convinced.
No need to tell me that the Iraqis are all grateful as hell to have been invaded by those nice yankees.
I just wish someone would tell them that.

:roll:

If it looks like propaganda, smells like propaganda, and comes from a source you cannot verify....well, you guess the rest.

You are obviously carefully ignoring the blogs which show the other side of the story then?

Yeah, pretty much smells like propaganda to me too. It's certainly not what your average Iraqi is thinking these days.. so much for liberation huh.. :?

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

It's an example of invasion and occupation that everyone will know about :)

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

It's an example of invasion and occupation that everyone will know about :)

and the implication was there that the current occupation was as bad as the nazi in poland one

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

It's an example of invasion and occupation that everyone will know about :)

and the implication was there that the current occupation was as bad as the nazi in poland one

Moreso the Nazi fondness for propaganda :wink:

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

It's an example of invasion and occupation that everyone will know about :)

and the implication was there that the current occupation was as bad as the nazi in poland one

Moreso the Nazi fondness for propaganda :wink:

there is no stopping you people comparing the US to nazi germany! how about i compare a country you love to a horrible dictatorship?

Funny looking Arabic.

Not that no Iraqis can write in English, but combined with the fact that there's no way to prove the provenence this is all very dodgy. Livejournal for instance has been swamped by a number of Gods, Satans, dictators and so on and so forth.

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

It's an example of invasion and occupation that everyone will know about :)

and the implication was there that the current occupation was as bad as the nazi in poland one

Moreso the Nazi fondness for propaganda :wink:

there is no stopping you people comparing the US to nazi germany! how about i compare a country you love to a horrible dictatorship?

Oh, you poor thing.
If it didn't have a ring of truth to it, it wouldn't matter.
If you love the US, you should be prepared to see its faults.
Love is never really that blind.

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

another one comparing the US to nazi germany. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE? :?

It's an example of invasion and occupation that everyone will know about :)

and the implication was there that the current occupation was as bad as the nazi in poland one

Moreso the Nazi fondness for propaganda :wink:

there is no stopping you people comparing the US to nazi germany! how about i compare a country you love to a horrible dictatorship?

Oh, you poor thing.
If it didn't have a ring of truth to it, it wouldn't matter.
If you love the US, you should be prepared to see its faults.
Love is never really that blind.

i hate the US government. i still recognise they arent nazi fricken germany

Yet another example of a "post and run".
Why bother posting an article, particularly one which appears as spurious as this, and the do not reply to any other posters.
TRA was deleted for continous "cut and paste", but at least he stuck around for the debate.
This IMHO is far worse.

Yet another example of a "post and run".
Why bother posting an article, particularly one which appears as spurious as this, and the do not reply to any other posters.
TRA was deleted for continous "cut and paste", but at least he stuck around for the debate.
This IMHO is far worse.

Um...I've seen Womblingdon debate on a number of occasions. I find it highly unlikely that what you are suggesting is actually the case. I mean, sure there have been no posts since, but I hardly think you can blame someone for that...not all of us can live online 24/7 right?

Still, I've seen these blogs before on a number of occasions, touted by those championing the justice of the Iraq war. I find them a little dogy, but I have not heard of them being debunked as fiction or actual propaganda. I would be interested in finding out just how many of these have been scrubbed or produced.

I have no doubt that there are Iraqis who feel exactly as the one who wrote this blog does. But there are undoubtedly lost of Iraqis who are willing to kill and be killed to get US soldiers out of there. It's not as if this one blog is proof of the overall mindset of the Iraqi people.

"They are better than Saddam but still they are not Muslims".

Funny...so there will be no Muslims in our military until I join then? Ahh...fascinating...

I have no doubt that there are Iraqis who feel exactly as the one who wrote this blog does. But there are undoubtedly lost of Iraqis who are willing to kill and be killed to get US soldiers out of there. It's not as if this one blog is proof of the overall mindset of the Iraqi people.

But my question is why you would believe the overal mindset is the opposite of the blog?..I mean..all of you who wish to portray the negativity of every little thing going on in Iraq.why can you not possibly consider that a good portion of Iraq is relativel stable, the economy is getting better for them..perhaps at a snail's pace but given the fact that the money that should have gone into their economy went to 37 or so palaces for Saddam....from what I've seen the security issues for the most part revolve around at best 6 cities in the Sunni Triangle that we knew were going to be problems anyway?

There's a couple of reasons. The first is simple--there's no such thing as an overall mindset of any group of people. Hell, you can't get 3 people to agree on where to go for lunch, and this is quite a bit more significant than that.

But more importantly, the situation on the ground convinces me that there's no great love for the US and the other occupiers in Iraq. And I don't blame them one bit. If the US were occupied, even if the occupiers were telling it was for our own good, I'd be doing whatever the hell I had to do to get them out.

Yet another example of a "post and run".
Why bother posting an article, particularly one which appears as spurious as this, and the do not reply to any other posters.
TRA was deleted for continous "cut and paste", but at least he stuck around for the debate.
This IMHO is far worse.

Um...I've seen Womblingdon debate on a number of occasions. I find it highly unlikely that what you are suggesting is actually the case. I mean, sure there have been no posts since, but I hardly think you can blame someone for that...not all of us can live online 24/7 right?

Still, I've seen these blogs before on a number of occasions, touted by those championing the justice of the Iraq war. I find them a little dogy, but I have not heard of them being debunked as fiction or actual propaganda. I would be interested in finding out just how many of these have been scrubbed or produced.

Yes, I too have seen Womblingdon debate on many occassions.
But after posting this one, which I and several other readers have regarded with deep suspicion, we have heard nothing.
I would love nothing more than to see Womlingdon reappear in this thread, and engage in debate.
I maintain that the use of "blogs" is about as reliable and honest as any "internet chat room" or "on-line dating".
I will only quote from reasonably mainstream media, which can be verified.

Yeah, I'll bet the Poles said the same things about their Nazi occupation :roll:

yeh, they probbly did

"They are better than Saddam but still they are not Muslims".

Funny...so there will be no Muslims in our military until I join then? Ahh...fascinating...

You're a Muslim Colombian?

Yet another example of a "post and run".
Why bother posting an article, particularly one which appears as spurious as this, and the do not reply to any other posters.
TRA was deleted for continous "cut and paste", but at least he stuck around for the debate.
This IMHO is far worse.
Post and Run??? First time someone accuses me of that.

I actually have a life, you know. Work, uni, writing my brand new screenplay. I even have a girlfriend who consumes more of my time and energy than all of the above combined. Doesn't leave me much time to burn on online debates. Maybe in july, when I finish the screenplay and my girl goes to Norway, I might invest more effort here.

Besides, this screwed up server isn't really helping any. Takes me half an hour to get through sometimes, until I despair.

Finally, I am yet to see a reaction that would be worth addressing. So far the posts here ranged from indifferent to stupid (see the Nazi comment).

Now to your other comment that actually had some merit. I realize that blogs are problematic as sources to quote. However, I have little reasons to not trust this one, as I came across it through a source I consider reliable. However, the blog author's identity is hard to verify, so your point is taken.

But that is not the issue. My interest was in observing people's reaction to the point of view expressed in the blog and to the possibility that Iraqis might actually be better off under US rule than they were under Saddam. Well, scroll up and observe the reaction- knee jerk denial, susipicion and accusations that I "carefully ignore" the negative points of view. Not a single person among the posters is ready to doubt his views on Iraqis being overwhelmingly and uniformly opposed to US presence and sympathetic to the "resistance" that kills ten times more Iraqis than they kill Americans. It has become somewhat of an axiom that needs no confirmation. What, pray tell, makes you so sure?

What does it take to make you aware how close minded you have become?

Hey wait a minute... Of course the iraqis like having computers and cars. This is exactly why Saddam expelled the UN inspectors, because there was no end in sight to the sanctions. Now don't tell me they had to bomb the hell out of 50 000 iraqis to end the sanctions. This is why they are hated. The iraqis love cars and hate occupiers. Many of them don't expect much better than Saddam from the americans BTW.

Hey wait a minute... Of course the iraqis like having computers and cars. This is exactly why Saddam expelled the UN inspectors, because there was no end in sight to the sanctions. Now don't tell me they had to bomb the hell out of 50 000 iraqis to end the sanctions. This is why they are hated. Th iraqis love cars and hate occupiers.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?

Hey wait a minute... Of course the iraqis like having computers and cars. This is exactly why Saddam expelled the UN inspectors, because there was no end in sight to the sanctions. Now don't tell me they had to bomb the hell out of 50 000 iraqis to end the sanctions. This is why they are hated. Th iraqis love cars and hate occupiers.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?

Did you honestly expect the sanctions to harm those in power? That's the whole point of Saddam being a bastard, he grew fat whilst his people starved.

It's why I have to shake my head in amazement at those who crow at Iraq being a great military victory. I think puffing ones chest up with pride and defeating a malnourished army of conscripts who had the choice of fighting for Saddam or having their families killed, telling about the mentality of those who do so.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?Of course it didn't. Saddam had the money to import anything he wanted on the black market.

Hey wait a minute... Of course the iraqis like having computers and cars. This is exactly why Saddam expelled the UN inspectors, because there was no end in sight to the sanctions. Now don't tell me they had to bomb the hell out of 50 000 iraqis to end the sanctions. This is why they are hated. Th iraqis love cars and hate occupiers.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?
It is nice to paint a recovering picture of Iraq, resplendent with all the trappings of western culture, but the fact remains that the Iraqi economy is going to be hijacked by foreign investors thanks to Bremer's Orders in general and Order 39 in specifics.

The interim constitution, signed two weeks ago, states that, "The laws, regulations, orders, and directives issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority ..... shall remain in force." The laws include Mr. Bremer's Order 39, which drastically changes Iraq's previous constitution to allow foreign companies to own 100 per cent of Iraqi assets (except in natural resources), and to take 100 per cent of their profits out of the country, paving the way for massive privatizations.

Defying Mr. Bremer's orders won't be an option after the "handover." The interim constitution clearly states that the only way these laws can be changed is by a three-fourths vote by the Iraqi transitional government. According to the same constitution, that body won't exist until elections are held in early 2005.

In other words, on June 30, the occupation won't end, it will simply be outsourced to a group of hand-picked Iraqi politicians with no democratic mandate or sovereign power.

http://www.rense.com/general50/sosdi.htm

From another source:

On September 19, Bremer enacted the now infamous Order 39. It announced that 200 Iraqi state companies would be privatized; decreed that foreign firms can retain 100% ownership of Iraqi banks, mines and factories; and allowed these firms to move 100% of their profits out of Iraq. The Economist declared the new rules a "capitalist dream".

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1107-09.htm

So I guess that the inlaid gold bathrooms will be gone, along with the wealth required to build them, which will be transferred to foreign investors.

Democracy----yeah right.

Hey wait a minute... Of course the iraqis like having computers and cars. This is exactly why Saddam expelled the UN inspectors, because there was no end in sight to the sanctions. Now don't tell me they had to bomb the hell out of 50 000 iraqis to end the sanctions. This is why they are hated. Th iraqis love cars and hate occupiers.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?
It is nice to paint a recovering picture of Iraq, resplendent with all the trappings of western culture, but the fact remains that the Iraqi economy is going to be hijacked by foreign investors thanks to Bremer's Orders in general and Order 39 in specifics.

The interim constitution, signed two weeks ago, states that, "The laws, regulations, orders, and directives issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority ..... shall remain in force." The laws include Mr. Bremer's Order 39, which drastically changes Iraq's previous constitution to allow foreign companies to own 100 per cent of Iraqi assets (except in natural resources), and to take 100 per cent of their profits out of the country, paving the way for massive privatizations.

Defying Mr. Bremer's orders won't be an option after the "handover." The interim constitution clearly states that the only way these laws can be changed is by a three-fourths vote by the Iraqi transitional government. According to the same constitution, that body won't exist until elections are held in early 2005.

In other words, on June 30, the occupation won't end, it will simply be outsourced to a group of hand-picked Iraqi politicians with no democratic mandate or sovereign power.

http://www.rense.com/general50/sosdi.htm

From another source:

On September 19, Bremer enacted the now infamous Order 39. It announced that 200 Iraqi state companies would be privatized; decreed that foreign firms can retain 100% ownership of Iraqi banks, mines and factories; and allowed these firms to move 100% of their profits out of Iraq. The Economist declared the new rules a "capitalist dream".

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1107-09.htm

So I guess that the inlaid gold bathrooms will be gone, along with the wealth required to build them, which will be transferred to foreign investors.

Democracy----yeah right.

Hijacked?...or merely allowed for free enterprise and the market to dictate the economy...natural resources will still be in the hands of the people..so their supply of capital will still be unchanged?..I fail to see your problem...even with the interim administration it will at one point end. For God's sake..we dictated to the Germans for 5 yrs..and the Japanese for 10 yrs how, what, where, and when with their entire society...and we all know how well they turned out..quit hoping for instant-everything, nothing ventured, nothing gained...growing pains are painful but in the end you have a healthier economy.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?

Perhaps he used the billions of dollars the US gave him in the 1980s?

Funny looking Arabic.

Not that no Iraqis can write in English, but combined with the fact that there's no way to prove the provenence this is all very dodgy. Livejournal for instance has been swamped by a number of Gods, Satans, dictators and so on and so forth.

OF course eome iraqis can write in english, they would have learnt it as a foreign language

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?

Perhaps he used the billions of dollars the US gave him in the 1980s?

No..he used that in an 8 yr war as our proxy to fight a theocratic thugocracy that would have enveloped the entire region in fundamentalist revolution and anarchy, all in the name of Allah, a fate we forestalled for at least 15 yrs..to that end..yes.he was a patsy..but he was broke by the time he invaded Iraq..he wore himself out against Iran..needed a diversion from his crumbling economy, so he waved the flag of nationalism and invaded Kuwait.

Hijacked?...or merely allowed for free enterprise and the market to dictate the economy...natural resources will still be in the hands of the people..so their supply of capital will still be unchanged?..I fail to see your problem...even with the interim administration it will at one point end. For God's sake..we dictated to the Germans for 5 yrs..and the Japanese for 10 yrs how, what, where, and when with their entire society...and we all know how well they turned out..quit hoping for instant-everything, nothing ventured, nothing gained...growing pains are painful but in the end you have a healthier economy.Germany and Japan paid reparations because they were the attackers. Here you are asking reparations to the iraqis.

]Hey wait a minute... Of course the iraqis like having computers and cars. This is exactly why Saddam expelled the UN inspectors, because there was no end in sight to the sanctions. Now don't tell me they had to bomb the hell out of 50 000 iraqis to end the sanctions. This is why they are hated. Th iraqis love cars and hate occupiers.

Really...seems like the sanctions didn't stop Saddam from building 37 palaces with gold inlaid in their bathrooms now did it?...Didn't stop his own family from living high off the hog now did it?
It is nice to paint a recovering picture of Iraq, resplendent with all the trappings of western culture, but the fact remains that the Iraqi economy is going to be hijacked by foreign investors thanks to Bremer's Orders in general and Order 39 in specifics.

The interim constitution, signed two weeks ago, states that, "The laws, regulations, orders, and directives issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority ..... shall remain in force." The laws include Mr. Bremer's Order 39, which drastically changes Iraq's previous constitution to allow foreign companies to own 100 per cent of Iraqi assets (except in natural resources), and to take 100 per cent of their profits out of the country, paving the way for massive privatizations.

Defying Mr. Bremer's orders won't be an option after the "handover." The interim constitution clearly states that the only way these laws can be changed is by a three-fourths vote by the Iraqi transitional government. According to the same constitution, that body won't exist until elections are held in early 2005.

In other words, on June 30, the occupation won't end, it will simply be outsourced to a group of hand-picked Iraqi politicians with no democratic mandate or sovereign power.

http://www.rense.com/general50/sosdi.htm

From another source:

On September 19, Bremer enacted the now infamous Order 39. It announced that 200 Iraqi state companies would be privatized; decreed that foreign firms can retain 100% ownership of Iraqi banks, mines and factories; and allowed these firms to move 100% of their profits out of Iraq. The Economist declared the new rules a "capitalist dream".

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1107-09.htm

So I guess that the inlaid gold bathrooms will be gone, along with the wealth required to build them, which will be transferred to foreign investors.

Democracy----yeah right.

Hijacked?...or merely allowed for free enterprise and the market to dictate the economy...natural resources will still be in the hands of the people..so their supply of capital will still be unchanged?..I fail to see your problem...even with the interim administration it will at one point end. For God's sake..we dictated to the Germans for 5 yrs..and the Japanese for 10 yrs how, what, where, and when with their entire society...and we all know how well they turned out..quit hoping for instant-everything, nothing ventured, nothing gained...growing pains are painful but in the end you have a healthier economy.
You know Salishe, I would love to give you the benefit of the doubt here but there are some major inherent differences between Germany of WW 2 and Iraq of present.

1. Iraq wasn't going around invading all it's neighbours.

2. Iraq has been relatively quite the past 12 years since getting her butt kicked in the Gulf War.

3. Iraq was not at war with anyone when the US illegally invaded.

4. Iraq was no real threat to the US.

5. Germany initiated WW2.

6. Germany and Japan were far more westernized than the Iraq of today, although Iraq is/was more westernized than other Islamic nations.

One of the major causes for WW2? Reparation payments by Germany to countries that had been damaged during WW1.

Coming out of WWI, Germany was suffering immense inflation. Their dollar value, as a result of brutal WWI reparations to the Allies, reduced the German Mark to 4,200,000,000,000 Marks to the Dollar. This lead to widespread poverty going into the Nazi era.

Reform groups and nationalists began to rise, which lead to the rise of Hitler, but it was economic market loosening by the Allies and a revalued Mark based on gold - not Hitler reforms - which saw a strengthened German economy. It wasn't until the Nazis took power that they found ways to bolster the economy

If the US sucks money out of the Iraqi economy vis-a-vis foreign control of Iraqi businesses, the citizens will be no more than labourers in a sweatshop environment, and will always be dependent upon the imperialists who control their destiny from afar. This didn't happen to Germany or Japan after WW2, so your comparison falters on the above factors.

There is already a legion of outside interests who are carving out their slice of the Iraqi pie. Free enterprise.......yeah right.