NationStates Jolt Archive

Rumsfeld approved interrogation methods: report
May 16, 2004

The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq and ultimately led to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker has reported.

Rumsfeld, who has been under fire for the prisoner abuse scandal, gave the green light to methods previously used in Afghanistan for gathering intelligence on members of al-Qaeda, which the United States blames for the September 11, 2001, attacks, the magazine reported on its Web site.

Pentagon spokesman Jim Turner said he had not seen the story and could not comment. The article hits US newsstands on Monday.

US interrogation techniques have come under scrutiny amid revelations that prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad were kept naked, stacked on top of one another, forced to engage in sex acts and photographed in humiliating poses.

Rumsfeld, who has rejected calls by some Democrats and a number of major newspapers to resign, returned yesterday from a surprise trip to Iraq and Abu Ghraib prison, calling the scandal a "body blow". Seven soldiers have been charged.
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The abuse prompted worldwide outrage and has shaken US global prestige as President George W. Bush seeks re-election in November. Bush has backed Rumsfeld and has said the abuse was abhorrent but was the wrongful actions of only a few soldiers.

The US military had now prohibited several interrogation methods from being used in Iraq, including sleep and sensory deprivation and body "stress positions", defence officials said yesterday.

The New Yorker said the interrogation plan was a highly classified "special access program", or SAP, that gave advance approval to kill, capture or interrogate so-called high-value targets in the battle against terror.

Such secret methods were used extensively in Afghanistan but more sparingly in Iraq - only in the search for former President Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction. As the Iraqi insurgency grew and more US soldiers died, Rumsfeld and Defence Undersecretary for Intelligence, Stephen Cambone, expanded the scope to bring the interrogation tactics to Abu Ghraib, the article said.

The magazine, which based its article on interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, reported that the plan was approved and carried out last year after deadly bombings in August at the UN headquarters and Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad.

A former intelligence official quoted in the article said Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, approved the program but may not have known about the abuse.

The rules governing the secret operation were "grab whom you must. Do what you want", the unidentified former intelligence official told the New Yorker.

Rumsfeld left the details of the interrogations to Cambone, the article quoted a Pentagon consultant as saying.

"This is Cambone's deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program," said the Pentagon consultant in the article.

US officials have admitted the abuse may have violated the Geneva Convention, which governs treatment of prisoners of war.

The New Yorker said the CIA, which approved using high-pressure interrogation tactics against senior al-Qaeda leaders after the 2001 attacks, balked at extending them to Iraq and refused to participate.

After initiating the secret techniques, the US military began learning useful intelligence about the insurgency, the former intelligence official was quoted as saying.

Reuters

SOURCE
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/16/1084646057396.html

COMMENT

Remember when it was "only a few isolated incidents".
Then, it was only "minor abuse"
Then, more details of what had actually occured were revealed, but it was not sanctioned by the authorities.
But, all those caught, mysteriously, adopted the "Nuremberg Defence" (I was only following orders).
And Bush rapidly jumped in to support Rumsfeld.
Stay tuned folks, I'm sure this will go on and get messier.

Rumsfeld approved interrogation methods: report
May 16, 2004

The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq and ultimately led to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker has reported.

Rumsfeld, who has been under fire for the prisoner abuse scandal, gave the green light to methods previously used in Afghanistan for gathering intelligence on members of al-Qaeda, which the United States blames for the September 11, 2001, attacks, the magazine reported on its Web site.

Pentagon spokesman Jim Turner said he had not seen the story and could not comment. The article hits US newsstands on Monday.

US interrogation techniques have come under scrutiny amid revelations that prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad were kept naked, stacked on top of one another, forced to engage in sex acts and photographed in humiliating poses.

Rumsfeld, who has rejected calls by some Democrats and a number of major newspapers to resign, returned yesterday from a surprise trip to Iraq and Abu Ghraib prison, calling the scandal a "body blow". Seven soldiers have been charged.
Advertisement Advertisement

The abuse prompted worldwide outrage and has shaken US global prestige as President George W. Bush seeks re-election in November. Bush has backed Rumsfeld and has said the abuse was abhorrent but was the wrongful actions of only a few soldiers.

The US military had now prohibited several interrogation methods from being used in Iraq, including sleep and sensory deprivation and body "stress positions", defence officials said yesterday.

The New Yorker said the interrogation plan was a highly classified "special access program", or SAP, that gave advance approval to kill, capture or interrogate so-called high-value targets in the battle against terror.

Such secret methods were used extensively in Afghanistan but more sparingly in Iraq - only in the search for former President Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction. As the Iraqi insurgency grew and more US soldiers died, Rumsfeld and Defence Undersecretary for Intelligence, Stephen Cambone, expanded the scope to bring the interrogation tactics to Abu Ghraib, the article said.

The magazine, which based its article on interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, reported that the plan was approved and carried out last year after deadly bombings in August at the UN headquarters and Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad.

A former intelligence official quoted in the article said Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, approved the program but may not have known about the abuse.

The rules governing the secret operation were "grab whom you must. Do what you want", the unidentified former intelligence official told the New Yorker.

Rumsfeld left the details of the interrogations to Cambone, the article quoted a Pentagon consultant as saying.

"This is Cambone's deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program," said the Pentagon consultant in the article.

US officials have admitted the abuse may have violated the Geneva Convention, which governs treatment of prisoners of war.

The New Yorker said the CIA, which approved using high-pressure interrogation tactics against senior al-Qaeda leaders after the 2001 attacks, balked at extending them to Iraq and refused to participate.

After initiating the secret techniques, the US military began learning useful intelligence about the insurgency, the former intelligence official was quoted as saying.

Reuters

SOURCE
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/16/1084646057396.html

COMMENT

Remember when it was "only a few isolated incidents".
Then, it was only "minor abuse"
Then, more details of what had actually occured were revealed, but it was not sanctioned by the authorities.
But, all those caught, mysteriously, adopted the "Nuremberg Defence" (I was only following orders).
And Bush rapidly jumped in to support Rumsfeld.
Stay tuned folks, I'm sure this will go on and get messier.Well, I'd say sleep deprivation is a far cry away from the things that have happened over there. Yes, he approved using interrogation methods, but not the ones used. There's a major difference.

A similar article appeared in my newspaper today. If it was that big a deal, it wouldn't have been on page 13.

Face it. Rumsfeld approved the things listed above (sleep deprivation, etc.) The troops got carried away, and now they're gonna pay for it. Quit trying to pin it on Rumsfeld and Bush.

Look at it this way: if a lowly accountant in a large firm were caught laundering money, would you fire the CEO who started the project that the accountant was working on when he broke the rules?

Look at it this way: if a lowly accountant in a large firm were caught laundering money, would you fire the CEO who started the project that the accountant was working on when he broke the rules?
If the project was flawed in a manner conductive to fraud, hell yeah.

I still haven't seen anything about George Tenent?!? He's the head intelligence man for Bush, and he's got far fewer links in the chain of command going down to the prison abuse. If what was "approved" had any raison d' etre, it was for intelligence gathering. Media seems to be focused on Rumsfeld... I don't understand why this is.

Face it. Rumsfeld approved the things listed above (sleep deprivation, etc.) The troops got carried away, and now they're gonna pay for it.

You really believe that the following is just a case of "soldiers getting carried away"?! :shock:

- Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

- Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

- Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

- Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

- Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

- Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

- Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

- Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; …

- Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture;

- A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

- Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee …

- Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

- Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

- Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

- Threatening male detainees with rape; …

- Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

photos shown in english papers tunred out to be a fake. The editor of the offending peice of tripe.. i mean tabloid.. (the mirror) Piers Morgan has been sacked.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/05/15/iraq.abuse.uk/vert.mirror.sorry.jpg

http://members.tripod.co.uk/matttwamasi/vert.mirror.sorry.jpg

it was just the most disreputable rubbish newspaper in egnland kicking up fuss to get their falling circulation up. there a re celebratoions all round now as that evil man had been removed from power, i hope he rots inm jail for his crimes. Yes i dont like Piers Morgan... (comedy drum roll)

Maybe it's like WMD? Fake evidence, real issue? :lol:

Face it. Rumsfeld approved the things listed above (sleep deprivation, etc.) The troops got carried away, and now they're gonna pay for it.

You really believe that the following is just a case of "soldiers getting carried away"?! :shock:

- Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

- Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

- Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

- Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

- Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

- Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

- Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

- Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; …

- Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture;

- A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

- Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee …

- Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

- Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

- Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

- Threatening male detainees with rape; …

- Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.Oh, so while we're talking about that, I say we should have had Winston Churchill and Theodore Roosevelt step down for war atrocities:
1) machine-gunning shipwrecked Japanese and German sailors
2) on-the-spot execution of POWs in the field
3) use of WMD on the Empire of Japan
4) mass bombings of civilian targets (factories, etc.)
...

Abe Lincoln ought to go, too:
1) insufficient medical and food supplies going to POW camps, thousands starve to death, disease rampid.
...
:roll: :roll: :roll:
See how rediculous this is?
These leaders didn't order the troops to commit these horrendus acts, but they happened anyway. The same applies to this situation. Saying that Rumsfeld ordered the actions listed above is like saying that Abe Lincoln ordered POWs to be starved to death, when he merely said to detain them. The arguement against Rumsfeld is weak at best.

You know what I think (and if you think about it too, you most likely will come to the same conclusion) the only reason this is being over-publicized like it is is for the following reason:
Election year.

You notice something? NObody is talking about what these people have done to get in that prison. And I know that it's impossible that
EVERY
LAST
ONE
was a case of wrong place-wrong time.
I heard, for example, that a group was arrested for plotting to blow up a tank. They won't get any sympathy from me. Before throwing all this bleeding-heart crap my way, I'd like to hear what they are all there for.

I'm not justifying the abuse; it cannot be justified, and I am aware that some were arrested wrongfully, as happens in every war. Hundreds have recently been released. I just want to know what they were arrested for, cuz they can't all be innocent as the media wants us to believe.

I'm posting this link to Sy Hersh's story in The New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

There's another thread on the board with links to other stories about this topic.

The fact is that Rumsfeld is the instigator in this, but kept both Rice and Bush in the loop. The military leaders were ordered to comitt these acts and then ordered to keep quiet about it and are now so mad about it that they're willing to testify in front of Congress that not only did Rumsfeld and Wolfwitz sign off on this, but Bush and Rice knew it was happening. Additionally, when other troops saw these abuses going on, the climate of the place changed and unauthorized uses of Copper Green style force occured because troops thought it was business as usual.

As for what "these people have done to get in that prison," the sad fact is that, depending on if you listen to us (we put the figure at 60%) or if you listen to the International Red Cross (they put the figure at 90%), they have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than be Iraqis in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were picked up in random checkpoint sweeps across the country and held on no charge with no particular reason to think they had done anything. This is born out by the fact that 300 prisoners were just released. Are some inmates of the prison deserving of being there? Perhaps, but the fact of the matter is, no matter if you believe us or them, the majority of prisoners were there for no other reason than they were Iraqis.