NationStates Jolt Archive

The topic of the existence of Jesus as a real historical figure has cropped up a couple of times and I don't want to cover old ground. As I'm not a religious scholar or historian I thought I'd expand the topic and am curious to know the answers.

Is there secular proof for the existence of the following:

Noah
Abraham
Moses
Mohammed
Khadija

I don't want to argue theology, were they really prophets, did God really speak to them, did they really perform miracles etc etc, that's a whole other topic.

Are these people real historical people and what's the evidence please?

Go!

Mohammed is a real historical figure; he's documented as having indeed put forward a book known as the Quran, a merchant and a warleader. Noah almost certainly did not exist, however; Abraham and Moses are also doubtful, thoug Moses may have existed (i'd bet against Abraham, though: more likely it's no more than a Semitic or Hebrew foundation myth).

Noah almost certainly did not exist, however; Abraham and Moses are also doubtful, though Moses may have existed

I've heard the theory of Flood Legend proliferation which suggests Moses with his access to the courts of Egypt read the Gilgamesh version and appropriated that for his book.

Nobody else?

We don't have to limit it to these people, I'll accept answers on David, Pontius Pilate etc etc

Noah - No proof outside of the Bible that I have heard of. However, he lived so long ago...

Abraham - I'm sure that even if you don't trust the Bible as God's word, you can trust its detailed geneologies in I Chronicles that trace heratige. The Bible was one of the first sources on the Hittite civilization, for instance. Some 19th century sceptics didn't believe in the Hittite civilization because the only source of it was in the Bible. Now no intelectual would deny the existance of the Hittites.

Moses - He's either real or (arguably) the most popular myth in the world.

Mohammed - He was a real man, but I don't think he was a real prophet.

Khadija - *shrugs*

I'm dissapointed. It's normally quite a scholary bunch here on NS

They're still looking into this, but I saw a documentary on the History channel saying they've found something they believe to be a huge ship in the mountains of Turkey, which may be the Ark.

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I heard that there is evidence for a great flood. The Dardanelles broke so the Mediterranean filled the black sea. They were looking for sediment information. They also say Noah most likely existed because there appears to be a similar myth in either Indian or Mesopotamian religions.

The Goat boy, the same goes for Jesus and Abraham etc...except that they'll always be people trying to profit from others, and some of them will be charismatic enough to become "prophets".

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I heard that there is evidence for a great flood. The Dardanelles broke so the Mediterranean filled the black sea. They were looking for sediment information. They also say Noah most likely existed because there appears to be a similar myth in either Indian or Mesopotamian religions.
Oh, the flood's for certain, it was one of the five big extinction events, can't remember which one. The similarity of myths is applicable to all Indo-European religions, though, and accepting it as proof would be ridiculous. Unless you consider the similarity of pantheons to be the proof there's a guy up there who's called Odhinn, or Woden, or Jupiter, or Zeus, and that he's really the king of the Gods who live on a moutain sometimes called Olympus and sometimes Asgardr(to only use the names i'm more familiar with, and taking into account a logical distortion of mythology over time and space).

Then again, it is very difficult to tell...

I'm unreligious, but, I do think that because the doctrines of Islam, Judaism and Christianity have been translated and re-translated so many times over thousands of years that there was probably something lost along the way between one version and the next...

Also, there are no real records of birth and death until the Catholic church came along. They were really the first to start recording such things.

Oh, the flood's for certain, it was one of the five big extinction events, can't remember which one. I am sure I am reading this wrong, but there is none of the five big extinction events has been a flood. And of all the moments of mass extinction through history, the only one during the existence of humankind has been the habitat destruction right now and has been caused by humans.

They're still looking into this, but I saw a documentary on the History channel saying they've found something they believe to be a huge ship in the mountains of Turkey, which may be the Ark.

Oh yeah, I saw the pictures. It doesn't even look like a boat.

They're still looking into this, but I saw a documentary on the History channel saying they've found something they believe to be a huge ship in the mountains of Turkey, which may be the Ark.

Oh yeah, I saw the pictures. It doesn't even look like a boat.

Something under wear and tear since biblical times shouldn't look like what it originally was.

Not really proof of existence but this article about a real life Jonah amused me.

"In February, 1891, the whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands when it encountered a large sperm whale. After the attack one of the seamen, named James Bartley, could not be found. The whale had been killed, and the sailors worked all day and part of the night removing the blubber.

"Next morning they attached some tackle to the stomach, which was hoisted on to the deck. The sailors were startled by something in it, which gave spasmodic signs of life, and presently disclosed James Bartley, doubled up and unconscious.

"He was revived, but remained for two weeks a raving lunatic. At the end of the third week he recovered.

"While he was in the whale's body his flesh was bleached by gastric juice to a deadly whiteness and became like parchment. He remembered the sensation of being thrown out of the boat into the sea, and of slipping along a smooth passage that seemed to move and carry him forward.

"His hands touched yielding, slimy substance that shrank from his touch. The heat was terrible, but he could breathe. It seemed to open the pores of this skin and draw out his vitality. He became weak and sick. The next he remembered was being in the captain's cabin.

"His skin never recovered its natural colour, but his health was not permanently affected."

http://www.shetlandseafoodnews.com/history/hisdec01.htm

Also, there are no real records of birth and death until the Catholic church came along. They were really the first to start recording such things.Actually, most major religions have some type of timeline or genealogy. Judaism was recording such events long before Jesus was born. I think Noah is the only one on the list that they would have a hard time pointing to historical evidence as to whether there was ever an actual person like that.

I think what we all agree on is that Adam & Eve aren't historically accurate figures.

Moses is a mysterious, shadowy figure.
His name can be translated as "Junior"; hardly a name at all, really.
His children and heirs are not heard from after the people cross the Jordan into the promised land. Why is that? Wouldn't his family have been honored, sought out for leadership?
The exact location of his tomb is unknown.
He had a foreign wife.
He comes to Egypt out of the desert, and never enters the lands of Israel.
His brother is the spokesman; he stays in the background.
Later passages which mention Abraham skimp Moses and vice versa, as if they were representative of two competing schools of doctrine.

Oh, the flood's for certain, it was one of the five big extinction events, can't remember which one. I am sure I am reading this wrong, but there is none of the five big extinction events has been a flood. And of all the moments of mass extinction through history, the only one during the existence of humankind has been the habitat destruction right now and has been caused by humans.
not a flood, per se-but of course, to say 'extinction event' is a misnomer, since they all were combinations of factors( by example, the K/T limit is marked by massive volcanic trapps and two major meteoric impacts close together, added to an already very high, in relative terms, percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere)-but a flood(or general rise of sea levels all over, if you prefer, did mark one(at least) of the big events. But as you pointed out, that did not occur within human memory, so it's all irrelevant; the flood referenced to in legends must be one of the lesser regional floods(which happen frequently in geological terms as ocean levels fluctuate accross the globe), or perhaps the creation of the modern mediterranean sea.

Moses is a mysterious, shadowy figure.
He name can be translated as "Junior"; hardly a name at all, really.
His children and heirs are not heard from after the people cross the Jordan into the promised land. Why is that? Wouldn't his family have been honored, sought out for leadership?
The exact location of his tomb is unknown.
He had a foreign wife.
He comes to Egypt out of the desert, and never enters the lands of Israel.
His brother is the spokesman; he stays in the background.
Later passages which mention Abraham skimp Moses and vice versa, as if they were representative of two competing schools of doctrine.

Ohhh I didn't know that.

Moses - The secret life? Intruiging.