NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

Personally? I'm saving up for one of those hybrids! My current Mazda POS gets about 20 MPG. I doubt I count though. I hate SUVs and everything they stand for.

I noticed in traffic that all SUVs have bumpers about head-hight when I'm in my car. Hope I don't get hit by one, 'cause I'd get a lot shorter.

I plan on buying a hybrid quite soon. As much as I love my Ford F-150, it's obviously not too bright to drive it very often.

I remember seeing a bumper sticker that said "Drive an SUV, Drive for Saddam" before the invasion. I hadn't been that amused in a long time.

*Raises arms over head*

THIS high!

I don't know. All I know is if I see one more little hybrid car that says "What Would Jesus Drive?" I will beat them screaming "JESUS WOULDN'T DRIVE! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO FOR A KLONDIKE BAR!"

IF we drill in Alaska, gas prices will drop down to a dollar, and with our drilling techniques today, their will be minimal enviromental damage. I support it. Somewhat.

Look at the majestic moose.

If you hate the high gas prices come here to california. We pay the most in the U.S.


*Damn anti-pollution additives*

*Raises arms over head*

THIS high!

I don't know. All I know is if I see one more little hybrid car that says "What Would Jesus Drive?" I will beat them screaming "JESUS WOULDN'T DRIVE! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO FOR A KLONDIKE BAR!"

IF we drill in Alaska, gas prices will drop down to a dollar, and with our drilling techniques today, their will be minimal enviromental damage. I support it. Somewhat.

Look at the majestic moose.

lmao.

For God so loved Klondike Bars, he gave his only begotten Son...

I drive a toyota corolla which is a pretty effecient car, but i still pay about 50 dollars a month for gasoline, and that will probably rise next year since i will be driving more. I pay about 2.26 per gallon here in California. I think that the gas companies pretty much can charge whatever they want because people will always be driving.

*Raises arms over head*

THIS high!

I don't know. All I know is if I see one more little hybrid car that says "What Would Jesus Drive?" I will beat them screaming "JESUS WOULDN'T DRIVE! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO FOR A KLONDIKE BAR!"

IF we drill in Alaska, gas prices will drop down to a dollar, and with our drilling techniques today, their will be minimal enviromental damage. I support it. Somewhat.

Look at the majestic moose.

WWJD? That there is almost enough reason to find another way! But, I must think of the children.

http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/wilderness/animals/moose.jpg

SHL

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

Well, gas prices around here are about 1/2 what they are in Britain. So our cars should be ~ half as fuel efficient, right?

Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV.

Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV.

oxymoron

Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV.

That's kind of an oxymoron :)

Like the fucking Lexus RS300 is a Sport Utility vehicle.

Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV.

That's kind of an oxymoron :)
Well they are.

...Who cares about what Jesus would have done??? In his time they didnt have gas and cars and all of that crap. Everbody had to walk or ride a donkey or mule or camel or horse. Im sure Jesus would have been crusing down the freeway in his BMW.

But anyways, back to gas prices...This same thing happened in the 70's. The prices went sky high for a while, then the gas companies started having gas price wars. They were trying to get the lowest price to get more customers, and still gain a profit. I give it about 2 months, then they will start to fall. I also noticed that going to school today at a gas station, the price was $1.82 for regular gas. Comming home tonight, I then noted that prices had dropped a cent at the same gas station, the reason being because every other gas station in town chages $1.82, so they got smart and decided to go a penny lower to get more customers.

My Buick gets 30 miles per gallon. Even at $2.05 a gallon here in West Virginia I'm paying over 100 dollars a week from all the driving I have to do. Clinton's last year in office I was paying 87 cents a gallon. Boy do I miss that.

Drilling in Alaska wouldn't drop gas prices by more than a dime. And even the most environmental friendly drilling practices would obliterate one of the last pristine wildlife areas left on this continent. The cost of drilling and shipping from Alaska for a temporary fix of less than 2 years...

Or we could spend that same money on equipping new buildings with solar panelling and get a more permanent fix.

Get a life. Walk.

A recent informal survey of SUV drivers in NYC asked that question of men and women. The answer was that even at $3.00 or better they wouldn't give up their SUV's.

Personally I would like to see there be a move by the feds to create incentives for a hydrogen production/distribution network. The technology needs further development to lower the cost to something comparable to oil.

Hydrogen will be able to be used for heating as well as an energy source for vehicles.

The fuel proposed target date is about 2010 with full production of vehicles planned to kick in for about 20 years. That is way too long a time frame.

SHL

A recent informal survey of SUV drivers in NYC asked that question of men and women. The answer was that even at $3.00 or better they wouldn't give up their SUV's.

Personally I would like to see there be a move by the feds to create incentives for a hydrogen production/distribution network. The technology needs further development to lower the cost to something comparable to oil.

Hydrogen will be able to be used for heating as well as an energy source for vehicles.

The fuel proposed target date is about 2010 with full production of vehicles planned to kick in for about 20 years. That is way too long a time frame.

SHL

However, Hydrogen power isn't clean unless it is properly refined. Also, creating the proper infrastructure to distribute it will take hella long. I say we all go buy Segways.

Nah, I'm all for fueling cars with good ole West Virginia Coal! C'mon people, help my fellow statespeople out!

I was planning on making my next car a fuel efficient one anyway--it's the responsible and patriotic thing to do. But right now I find myself largely using electrically powered buses and trains.

And while I did own an SUV in the past, it was a real off road vehicle--a Jeep Cherokee that I used to go camping throughout the southwest. In other words, I used it for what it was intended, and not as a status symbol.

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!

I know.

"I live alone in the quiet suburbs and commute to work over two miles of unbusy streets. So of course I need an SUV that can seat twelve and is equipped to drive over arctic tundra!"

/Somewhat botched GTA3 commercial

"I live alone in the quiet suburbs and commute to work over two miles of unbusy streets. So of course I need an SUV that can seat twelve and is equipped to drive over arctic tundra!"

This image just cracks me up for some reason. My neighbor just bought an Escalade for that very purpose.

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!Shut up, please.

The plan for Iraqi oil was never for the short term--it was for the long term. The fact is that gas prices are high because the oil supply is shrinking and because other countries--China most of all--are using a lot more. You know the law of supply and demand, right? Get used to it kicking your ass as far as gas prices are concerned.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

I am going to get a Honda Civic sometime in the near future. 30+ MPG, yay!

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!Shut up, please.

The plan for Iraqi oil was never for the short term--it was for the long term. The fact is that gas prices are high because the oil supply is shrinking and because other countries--China most of all--are using a lot more. You know the law of supply and demand, right? Get used to it kicking your ass as far as gas prices are concerned.

Very true. OPEC announced that it was going to give less crude oil to America. So immediately gas prices went up. China and other countries with more people are wanting fuel too. So, with the demand higher in China, who will OPEC sell to? Basic economics. China of course, supply and demand.

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!Shut up, please.

The plan for Iraqi oil was never for the short term--it was for the long term. The fact is that gas prices are high because the oil supply is shrinking and because other countries--China most of all--are using a lot more. You know the law of supply and demand, right? Get used to it kicking your ass as far as gas prices are concerned.

Very true. OPEC announced that it was going to give less crude oil to America. So immediately gas prices went up. China and other countries with more people are wanting fuel too. So, with the demand higher in China, who will OPEC sell to? Basic economics. China of course, supply and demand.

Yes, I do know the laws of supply and demand. I'm just saying that if we were using the oil in Iraq for ourselfs, the prices wouldn't be so high. Our supply would go up, causing prices not to be so high.

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!Shut up, please.

The plan for Iraqi oil was never for the short term--it was for the long term. The fact is that gas prices are high because the oil supply is shrinking and because other countries--China most of all--are using a lot more. You know the law of supply and demand, right? Get used to it kicking your ass as far as gas prices are concerned.

Very true. OPEC announced that it was going to give less crude oil to America. So immediately gas prices went up. China and other countries with more people are wanting fuel too. So, with the demand higher in China, who will OPEC sell to? Basic economics. China of course, supply and demand.

Yes, I do know the laws of supply and demand. I'm just saying that if we were using the oil in Iraq for ourselfs, the prices wouldn't be so high. Our supply would go up, causing prices not to be so high.

We need to think of other prices than money here. Not that less expensive gas is a bad thing.

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!Shut up, please.

The plan for Iraqi oil was never for the short term--it was for the long term. The fact is that gas prices are high because the oil supply is shrinking and because other countries--China most of all--are using a lot more. You know the law of supply and demand, right? Get used to it kicking your ass as far as gas prices are concerned.

*****************
OPEC has cut back production. I think it is their way of trying to punish President Bush by getting people to vote for Senator Kerry.

I sure wish there was a nice and cost effective commuter electric vehicle out there. 100 miles between charges is plenty for me. Maybe throw some solar panels on the roof to charge the batteries while the car bakes in the sun. Ya! Free electricity.

BTW...These high gas prices just go to show that we arent getting our oil from Iraq. So all those people that said we were going over there for oil, I want YOU to pay for MY gas, then tell me that we fought the war for their oil!!Shut up, please.

The plan for Iraqi oil was never for the short term--it was for the long term. The fact is that gas prices are high because the oil supply is shrinking and because other countries--China most of all--are using a lot more. You know the law of supply and demand, right? Get used to it kicking your ass as far as gas prices are concerned.

Very true. OPEC announced that it was going to give less crude oil to America. So immediately gas prices went up. China and other countries with more people are wanting fuel too. So, with the demand higher in China, who will OPEC sell to? Basic economics. China of course, supply and demand.

Yes, I do know the laws of supply and demand. I'm just saying that if we were using the oil in Iraq for ourselfs, the prices wouldn't be so high. Our supply would go up, causing prices not to be so high.

Actually, you know that pretty much everyone in the Bush adminstration is an oil person right? So exactly what would it profit them to cut back on gas prices by making more oil available? :?

OPEC has cut back production. I think it is their way of trying to punish President Bush by getting people to vote for Senator Kerry.

I sure wish there was a nice and cost effective commuter electric vehicle out there. 100 miles between charges is plenty for me. Maybe throw some solar panels on the roof to charge the batteries while the car bakes in the sun. Ya! Free electricity.Well, Prince Bandar in an interview right after Bob Woodward's book came out admitted that Saudi Arabia favored Bush's reelection--nothing really sinister, just that they prefer stability. I imagine if they had their druthers they'd rather deal with a system like their own.

I think they're just pushing up the cost because they can. They've got the biggest supply of the thing that the rest of the world can't do without. The danger they face is that enough people will get tired of paying through the nose and will look for another option. But that will take time, and until then, we've got to pay.

OPEC has cut back production. I think it is their way of trying to punish President Bush by getting people to vote for Senator Kerry.

Just wait: Right before the election, the oil prices will inexplicably take a tumble.

A recent informal survey of SUV drivers in NYC asked that question of men and women. The answer was that even at $3.00 or better they wouldn't give up their SUV's.

Personally I would like to see there be a move by the feds to create incentives for a hydrogen production/distribution network. The technology needs further development to lower the cost to something comparable to oil.

Hydrogen will be able to be used for heating as well as an energy source for vehicles.

The fuel proposed target date is about 2010 with full production of vehicles planned to kick in for about 20 years. That is way too long a time frame.

SHL

However, Hydrogen power isn't clean unless it is properly refined. Also, creating the proper infrastructure to distribute it will take hella long. I say we all go buy Segways.

Segways need to be charged. What is used to generate the electricity?

That said, I would love to see Manhattan filled with Segways. The people would all be on their ass from collisions but the Segs would just stand there like a robotic butler wait for them to get back on.

We would have Seg Rage. Pimped out Segs with ground effects and 1000 watt sound systems blasting meringue for all to 'enjoy'. Police Segs with the party light atop their helmets. SU Segs with giant tires that elevate the rider to twice the height of everyone else's Seg being driven by under endowed men and women. we would ha...

I'm sorry. Did I drift off topic there?

My Bad!

SHL

OPEC has cut back production. I think it is their way of trying to punish President Bush by getting people to vote for Senator Kerry.

Just wait: Right before the election, the oil prices will inexplicably take a tumble.

well stock up them ;)

I've heard that theory too...

However, the reason that prices have continued to stay high is not that Iraq's oil isn't being exported. It's that oil companies will take any excuse to hike prices, and see no need to drop them as long as people are still buying.

Which they will.

I've heard that theory too...

However, the reason that prices have continued to stay high is not that Iraq's oil isn't being exported. It's that oil companies will take any excuse to hike prices, and see no need to drop them as long as people are still buying.

Which they will.

"If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."
John Wayne

"When you've got them by their SUVs, their wallets will follow."
Prince Bandar

OK, he really didn't say that - that I know of.

SHL

Speaking of SUVs, anyone else see the PBS Frontline special last night on the development of the SUV and the problems with rollover? Quite informative in a despicable sort of way.

Speaking of SUVs, anyone else see the PBS Frontline special last night on the development of the SUV and the problems with rollover? Quite informative in a despicable sort of way.

A well known fact here in the US. The center of gravity is usually too high and some people driving this 'truck' tend to think it's a Maserati.

SHL

Well...gas prices are going from $2.00 - $2.30 (the cheapest brand of gas) here in California

Well...gas prices are going from $2.00 - $2.30 (the cheapest brand of gas) here in California

Man I wish I was paying that much. In Alberta (aka Texas jr.) we pay 87.9 cents/litre, which works out to about $2.50/gal US.

I wish gas prices where $7 an hour and shipping ran on biodesiel (so goods wouldn't be as effected, and it's renewable).

Then only enthusiasts would be on the road...and rich bastards...can't do anything fun without rich bastards ruining it all....

I'm in one of those binds because I love cars and driving them, but understand that the are pariah. Ideally I'd like the impact to be menial, which goes beyond just changing the fuel systems. But I also want to launch a car from corner to corner at the edge. It's like being a heroin addict.

I remember seeing a bumper sticker that said "Drive an SUV, Drive for Saddam" before the invasion. I hadn't been that amused in a long time.

i liked crimethinc's gas pump stickers (http://www.crimethinc.com/cards/blood_med.gif). i had a nice little pile of them that i, um, distributed across three states.

Well...gas prices are going from $2.00 - $2.30 (the cheapest brand of gas) here in California

NYC is about par with that. Fortunately I go to New Jersey on business often enough so they are at about $1.85 regular by the crossings. A bit cheaper inland.

SHL

Well...gas prices are going from $2.00 - $2.30 (the cheapest brand of gas) here in California

Barrow, Alaska is at $3.19

I wish gas prices where $7 an hour and shipping ran on biodesiel (so goods wouldn't be as effected, and it's renewable).

Then only enthusiasts would be on the road...and rich bastards...can't do anything fun without rich bastards ruining it all....

Meanwhile screwing people like me. My job is 20 miles west of me, and my girlfriend is 20 miles south of me.

OPEC has cut back production. I think it is their way of trying to punish President Bush by getting people to vote for Senator Kerry.

I sure wish there was a nice and cost effective commuter electric vehicle out there. 100 miles between charges is plenty for me. Maybe throw some solar panels on the roof to charge the batteries while the car bakes in the sun. Ya! Free electricity.Well, Prince Bandar in an interview right after Bob Woodward's book came out admitted that Saudi Arabia favored Bush's reelection--nothing really sinister, just that they prefer stability. I imagine if they had their druthers they'd rather deal with a system like their own.

I think they're just pushing up the cost because they can. They've got the biggest supply of the thing that the rest of the world can't do without. The danger they face is that enough people will get tired of paying through the nose and will look for another option. But that will take time, and until then, we've got to pay.

++++++++++++++++

Nope! We did not learn our lesson in the first part of the '70's when there were gas lines and the price of gas more than doubled.

Nope! We did not learn our lesson in the first part of the '70's when there were gas lines and the price of gas more than doubled.

Oddly enough, when adjusted for inflation, prices are currently about half of what they were in 79.

Well...gas prices are going from $2.00 - $2.30 (the cheapest brand of gas) here in California

Barrow, Alaska is at $3.19

I wish gas prices where $7 an hour and shipping ran on biodesiel (so goods wouldn't be as effected, and it's renewable).

Then only enthusiasts would be on the road...and rich bastards...can't do anything fun without rich bastards ruining it all....

Meanwhile screwing people like me. My job is 20 miles west of me, and my girlfriend is 20 miles south of me.

Barrow, eh? How's that tan coming along?

SHL

Nope! We did not learn our lesson in the first part of the '70's when there were gas lines and the price of gas more than doubled.

Oddly enough, when adjusted for inflation, prices are currently about half of what they were in 79.

**************
A gallon of gas in 1974 was around $.75, which translates into $2.60 in today's dollars (per the inflation index). This can be misleading though. Some think that hours worked to get a product is a much better measurement.

Auch ich kippe glaube unseren Gaspreisen in Deutschland

I do not see how Americans can complain about rising gasoline prices.

Here in Australia if we were to buy a gallon (3.79 L) of petrol, it would currently cost $4.13. And this is spite our dollar going up from $0.49 US in 2001 to $0.76 US today.

And who profits from all this? The Arabs and the petrol stations.

Time to pull the plug on oil and find new energy sources. Then we can tell the Arab world what they can do with their damn oil!

(i speak from an economic, not enviornmental, perspective)

In oregon, because of the recent demand for Hybrid cars, they're thinking about dropping the gas tax, and making a mileage tax... how stupid is that?! It'd be cheaper then to own a bloody SUV over a Prius/Insight/Focus!

I do not see how Americans can complain about rising gasoline prices.

Here in Australia if we were to buy a gallon (3.79 L) of petrol, it would currently cost $4.13. And this is spite our dollar going up from $0.49 US in 2001 to $0.76 US today.

And who profits from all this? The Arabs and the petrol stations.

Time to pull the plug on oil and find new energy sources. Then we can tell the Arab world what they can do with their damn oil!

(i speak from an economic, not enviornmental, perspective)

+++++++

There are a few variables in the price of gas:

1.) Taxes

2.) Supply

3.) Cost of raw material

4.) Production costs

5.) Greed

When it is profitable to go to non-petroleum source of energy it will be developed and used. Alternate sources are still to expensive.

I do not see how Americans can complain about rising gasoline prices.

Here in Australia if we were to buy a gallon (3.79 L) of petrol, it would currently cost $4.13. And this is spite our dollar going up from $0.49 US in 2001 to $0.76 US today.

And who profits from all this? The Arabs and the petrol stations.

Time to pull the plug on oil and find new energy sources. Then we can tell the Arab world what they can do with their damn oil!

(i speak from an economic, not enviornmental, perspective)

+++++++

There are a few variables in the price of gas:

1.) Taxes

2.) Supply

3.) Cost of raw material

4.) Production costs

5.) Greed

When it is profitable to go to non-petroleum source of energy it will be developed and used. Alternate sources are still to expensive.Big ones you missed:

6) Location (how close to freeway exists?)

7) Self-Service/Full Service

8] Location (how close to ports?)

9) Gas quality/additives

10) Location (How close to another gas station (that is probably owned by the same company?)?)

i just payed $110 to fill up my f150....both tanks

:( :( :(

i just payed $110 to fill up my f150....both tanks

:( :( :(how many gallons total?

When it is profitable to go to non-petroleum source of energy it will be developed and used. Alternate sources are still to expensive.

There are many profitable energy sources...but most are patented or political parties are given sizeable donations by generous corporations (of course this has no bearing on continued dependence on oil :wink: )

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

I know that your no dummy TG, but not all americans drive gas guzzling SUV's ya know.
I for one drive a Ford Tempo.
It gets about 30 miles to the gallon or so on the highway.
Thats decent, but nowhere near as efficient as the hybrids or one of the gas sipping newer models.

If I could afford to buy a new car, I cetainly would buy a gas/ electric hybrid.
Not for ecological reasons.....for economical ones.

If the prices get much higher....people who rely on their cars for income..(like me) will only suffer.

Auch ich kippe glaube unseren Gaspreisen in Deutschland

Wieviel ist Benzin in Deutschland?

If I could afford to buy a new car, I cetainly would buy a gas/ electric hybrid.
Not for ecological reasons.....for economical ones.


It's worth pointing out, however, that if something goes wrong with a hybrid's battery-system, you are seriously screwed. Aparently they're several thousand dollars.

Personally, I've got a Focus, so while not highly efficient, it's hardly a Monstah Truck either.

If I could afford to buy a new car, I cetainly would buy a gas/ electric hybrid.
Not for ecological reasons.....for economical ones.


It's worth pointing out, however, that if something goes wrong with a hybrid's battery-system, you are seriously screwed. Aparently they're several thousand dollars.

Personally, I've got a Focus, so while not highly efficient, it's hardly a Monstah Truck either.


Oh thats just great.

There always has to be a catch doesnt there?

How many problems of this nature have you heard about?

Hybrids and electrics are nice but right now their isn't a decent infrastructure put into place as regards repairs...upgrades..etc...and plus..they are all SMALL..goodness..if you're 5'8 I'm sure the cars are spacious..but what if you're 6'3"?......your damn knees would go up against the steering wheel.

I know a lot of men who buy the F-150, Chevy Silverado, or Dodge Ram trucks simply because they are sized decently for tall or heavy men to be able to sit up right and to slide into them rather then having to bend or contort to get into the vehicle.

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Not that easy walking to and from work which is 10 miles apart carrying briefcases

(America is a spread out kinda nation. Not the cramped up England)

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Pizza delivery man.

Car= payed bills.

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Not that easy walking to and from work which is 10 miles apart carrying briefcases

(America is a spread out kinda nation. Not the cramped up England)

Never bothered me. 10 miles is a hobby.

Jim

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Not that easy walking to and from work which is 10 miles apart carrying briefcases

(America is a spread out kinda nation. Not the cramped up England)

Never bothered me. 10 miles is a hobby.

Jim

With briefcases? A suit or uniform? In the dead heat? To and fro?

Oh thats just great.

There always has to be a catch doesnt there?

How many problems of this nature have you heard about?

Only once, and the car was still under warente, so it wasn't a disaster, but it's certainly something to ask about when considering buying one.

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Not that easy walking to and from work which is 10 miles apart carrying briefcases

(America is a spread out kinda nation. Not the cramped up England)

Never bothered me. 10 miles is a hobby.

Jim

With briefcases? A suit or uniform? In the dead heat? To and fro?

Let see, Record? about 16 miles. In full gear. Record for fun? All day just because I could. {edit} I don't know the milage{edit}

Squatch: Payed bills and gass prices payed into Pop-culture.

Jim

Heres a very good solution to rising gas prices: learn to WALK

Jim

Not that easy walking to and from work which is 10 miles apart carrying briefcases

(America is a spread out kinda nation. Not the cramped up England)

Never bothered me. 10 miles is a hobby.

Jim

With briefcases? A suit or uniform? In the dead heat? To and fro?

Let see, Record? about 16 miles. In full gear. Record for fun? All day just because I could.

Squatch: Payed bills and gass prices payed into Pop-culture.

Jim

That's awesome. When you feel like walking two hyperactive kids to soccer practice like that, gimmie a call

Colodia: If you walked them to practice, then maybe they wouldn't be so hyper-active.

Hmmm :?:

Jim

Colodia: If you walked them to practice, then maybe they wouldn't be so hyper-active.

Hmmm :?:

Jim

:roll: :lol:

*dies of uncontrollable laughter*

*runs out of topic sobbing with laughter*

Squatch: Payed bills and gass prices payed into Pop-culture.

Pop Culture or not.....this boy has to eat now and then, just like everyone else.
Food costs money.
Electricity costs money.
Rent costs money.
Cigarettes cost money...( ya I know, shaddap!)

I dont care if its trendy or not......I get hungry too, and this job pays my bills, and unfortunately we live in a material society.

No money....you eat out of trash cans, and live in a cardboard box.

Squatch: Payed bills and gass prices payed into Pop-culture.

Pop Culture or not.....this boy has to eat now and then, just like everyone else.
Food costs money.
Electricity costs money.
Rent costs money.
Cigarettes cost money...( ya I know, shaddap!)

I dont care if its trendy or not......I get hungry too, and this job pays my bills, and unfortunately we live in a material society.

No money....you eat out of trash cans, and live in a cardboard box.

OK you make your living through driving and the price increase has to hurt. Given.

I always rode a Motorcycle. Wrecked my last one so now I walk.

Jim

i just payed $110 to fill up my f150....both tanks

:( :( :(how many gallons total?

about 50 a 27 and a 22

Auch ich kippe glaube unseren Gaspreisen in Deutschland

Ich möchte aber, daß ihr alle in Sprachen redet, mehr aber [noch], daß ihr weissagt. Wer aber weissagt, ist größer, als wer in Sprachen redet, es sei denn, daß er es auslegt, damit die Gemeinde Erbauung empfange.
SHL

We are starting to pay over $1 per litre in Australia.
AND 50% of the cost is tax ...

Squatch: Payed bills and gass prices payed into Pop-culture.

Pop Culture or not.....this boy has to eat now and then, just like everyone else.
Food costs money.
Electricity costs money.
Rent costs money.
Cigarettes cost money...( ya I know, shaddap!)

I dont care if its trendy or not......I get hungry too, and this job pays my bills, and unfortunately we live in a material society.

No money....you eat out of trash cans, and live in a cardboard box.

OK you make your living through driving and the price increase has to hurt. Given.

I always rode a Motorcycle. Wrecked my last one so now I walk.

Jim

Fortunately you still can.

I live in the city so walking comes naturally. The distances are rarely more a mile or so at a clip. I have family that live in a semi rural area and it is almost 2 miles to a small shop/gas station and about 15 miles to the shopping center proper. Work for the primary income earner is about 25 miles away and there is no provision for walking on the side of the interstate. Now in a truly rural area these distances are much greater.

SHL

I look at it this way.

The earth population is projected to hit about 9 billion in the next thirty years, even assuming a declining birth rate. Our economic outlook presumes expansion. Cars are starting to become very popular in developing countries. (cough, cough), that's good, more markets...

How thick does the smog have to get before we start rethinking transit?
Do we really want a planet of 9 billion people automobile dependent, or are we just assuming the poor will always be among us and we can count on a reasonable proportion of the nine billion to remain nonplayers? Remember we are already outsourcing our jobs all over the planet, and the cars can't be far behind the jobs.

The price of gas is already a lot higher than we think. The figure on the pump is an illusion.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.
I'd get real worried if they hit somewhere above $5 dollars. And since full-service gas in some places in California has topped $3 bucks, that may not be too far-fetched.
However, I've noticed that the CEOs of the big three auto giants, as well as quite a few conservative columnists, are endorsing a gas tax as the best way to cut on consumption, and thus, scale back prices for those who need gas most, like truckers and farmers. So, I support one myself. $.50/gallon seems reasonable. And it would, of course, exclude truckers, hybrids, and those that can genuinely prove they can't afford it. And of course, additional tax breaks should be awarded to those individuals and organizations that install their own solar panels or wind mills.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.
I'd get real worried if they hit somewhere above $5 dollars. And since full-service gas in some places in California has topped $3 bucks, that may not be too far-fetched.
However, I've noticed that the CEOs of the big three auto giants, as well as quite a few conservative columnists, are endorsing a gas tax as the best way to cut on consumption, and thus, scale back prices for those who need gas most, like truckers and farmers. So, I support one myself. $.50/gallon seems reasonable. And it would, of course, exclude truckers, hybrids, and those that can genuinely prove they can't afford it. And of course, additional tax breaks should be awarded to those individuals and organizations that install their own solar panels or wind mills.

:wink: Golly gee! Cars with windmills? If I walk and use a beanie with a propeller will I get a tax break too? :lol:

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.
I'd get real worried if they hit somewhere above $5 dollars. And since full-service gas in some places in California has topped $3 bucks, that may not be too far-fetched.
However, I've noticed that the CEOs of the big three auto giants, as well as quite a few conservative columnists, are endorsing a gas tax as the best way to cut on consumption, and thus, scale back prices for those who need gas most, like truckers and farmers. So, I support one myself. $.50/gallon seems reasonable. And it would, of course, exclude truckers, hybrids, and those that can genuinely prove they can't afford it. And of course, additional tax breaks should be awarded to those individuals and organizations that install their own solar panels or wind mills.

:wink: Golly gee! Cars with windmills? If I walk and use a beanie with a propeller will I get a tax break too? :lol:
Yeah. Maybe a few cents. The details and legal language, of course, will be handled if and when something like this becomes law.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.
I'd get real worried if they hit somewhere above $5 dollars. And since full-service gas in some places in California has topped $3 bucks, that may not be too far-fetched.
However, I've noticed that the CEOs of the big three auto giants, as well as quite a few conservative columnists, are endorsing a gas tax as the best way to cut on consumption, and thus, scale back prices for those who need gas most, like truckers and farmers. So, I support one myself. $.50/gallon seems reasonable. And it would, of course, exclude truckers, hybrids, and those that can genuinely prove they can't afford it. And of course, additional tax breaks should be awarded to those individuals and organizations that install their own solar panels or wind mills.

:wink: Golly gee! Cars with windmills? If I walk and use a beanie with a propeller will I get a tax break too? :lol:
Yeah. Maybe a few cents. The details and legal language, of course, will be handled if and when something like this becomes law.

SHL sez;

YIPPEEEEEEEEE!

Http://www.geekculture.com/geekculturestore/webstore/webstoreimages/macgeniusbeaniemini.gif
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Oh, god, I go to sleep and now we're talking about BEANIES!

Speaking of SUVs, anyone else see the PBS Frontline special last night on the development of the SUV and the problems with rollover? Quite informative in a despicable sort of way.

A well known fact here in the US. The center of gravity is usually too high and some people driving this 'truck' tend to think it's a Maserati.

SHL

http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2004/05/10/7_die_when_suv_crashes_in_attempt_to_pass_cars/

CARMEL, Maine -- Seven people, including at least three young children, were killed yesterday when their sport utility vehicle crashed on Interstate 95 after speeding into the breakdown lane to pass two cars, state police said.
The accident occurred about 2:45 p.m. in the northbound lanes about 10 miles west of Bangor.

The Ford Explorer went out of control after clipping one of the cars it was trying to pass, said Stephen McCausland, spokesman for the Maine Department of Public Safety. It then turned sideways, became airborne, slammed into some trees in the median and came to rest on its roof, he said.

All of the women were believed to be from Maine. "The assumption is that so were the children," McCausland said. Three of the children were under age 10, he said.

Police initially reported the death toll at five, but the number was raised to seven after a wrecker was able to lift the vehicle into a position where state troopers could look inside.

Police had no immediate estimate as to how fast the Explorer was going, but McCausland said it was traveling at a high rate of speed.

Troopers quoted witnesses as saying one car was in the travel lane and the other was passing it in the passing lane when the Explorer came up quickly from behind. "They told the troopers that the Explorer came up initially at a high rate of speed in the passing lane and then veered into the breakdown lane and passed both, clipping one of them," McCausland said.

Oh, god, I go to sleep and now we're talking about BEANIES!

**AHEM**

Ok everybody. Breaks over. Back to grim reality.

SHL

i just payed $110 to fill up my f150....both tanks

:( :( :(how many gallons total?

Usually 2 25 gallon tanks.

I know a lot of men who buy the F-150, Chevy Silverado, or Dodge Ram trucks simply because they are sized decently for tall or heavy men to be able to sit up right and to slide into them rather then having to bend or contort to get into the vehicle.

Exactly. I am 16 years old and 6'2. I have a younger brother who is also tall for his age. Currently my mom, dad, and step-mom all have SUV's because those will fit everyone into them comfortably. My dad and step mom used to have a mini-van when I was younger, try 4th-7th grade. I was not comfortable anywhere in that car because there was not enough room to stretch out.

We also happen to live in Massachusetts and it happens to SNOW and get icy here, meaning that four wheel drive is almost neccesary when its early in the morning and the roads are not cleared or treated. This can be the case from mid-october to late-april.

Steps that the US government/individual should take

1. Promote alternate sources of energy. Give tax credits dollar for dollar up to $5,000 for solar panels.Get solar panels on your house for electricity or hot water. It will save you a lot in the winter because your furnace wont have to work very much. One day of sunshine equals 3 days of hot water.
2. Raise the tax on SUV's for re-fueling and buying them.
3. Promote biodesiel
4. Place tarrifs on import cars requiring that they be made in the United States, not mexico or central america, that way the workers will buy a car that has to follow EPA regualtions. (example, a mexican worker buys a car that does not have to meet regualtions of any type)

I say that we need to enforce some German-like autobahn laws. There would be a lot less incidentsw with your license revoked forever if you screwed up once, and it would cut down on our stupid person population with no speed limits! Also, we need to promote mass transit systems.

I say that we need to enforce some German-like autobahn laws. There would be a lot less incidentsw with your license revoked forever if you screwed up once, and it would cut down on our stupid person population with no speed limits! Also, we need to promote mass transit systems.

u r smartttttttt1!!!!!!!!!!!111111111

it would cut down on our stupid person population with no speed limits!

u r smartttttttt1!!!!!!!!!!!111111111

I say that we need to enforce some German-like autobahn laws. There would be a lot less incidentsw with your license revoked forever if you screwed up once, and it would cut down on our stupid person population with no speed limits! Also, we need to promote mass transit systems.
The problem with mass transit, however, is that it's too inconvinient. The trains and buses run off schedule all the time, and they never take you to exactly where you want to go. It's just far more convinient to get directly from point A to point B when one wants to.
Fortunatly, that may soon change. Some Minneapolis city concilmen support a concept create there of mass transit. It's on elevated tracks crisscrossing the city, like trains. Unlike the trains, however, they'd have small cars on them. They'd have only one row and some trunk space. The person would go to one of the stations that are as easier to get to as hailing a cab. Then, slide the credit card through the register at the station, and a car waiting on the side of these tracks comes. There's a little computer on the dashboard where you type in the address, and it takes you right there.
It sounds futuristic and impractical, but for such a radical concept, it surprised me that its pricetag for Minneapolis wouldn't be over a billion dollars. It'd be just $600-800 million, and as it's so convinient, the system would pay for itself in a few years. The technology, and a prototype, allready exist. All that needs to be done is to build one.

CARMEL, Maine -- Seven people, including at least three young children, were killed yesterday when their sport utility vehicle crashed on Interstate 95 after speeding into the breakdown lane to pass two cars, state police said...

The Ford Explorer went out of control after clipping one of the cars it was trying to pass...

Oh My God! Evil sentient SUV's! It kidnapped some people and drove like a maniac on the expressway! Why wasn't somebody driving?!

Oh... someone was? Then why weren't they blamed for this accident?

...or at least mentioned?

The problem with mass transit, however, is that it's too inconvinient. The trains and buses run off schedule all the time, and they never take you to exactly where you want to go. It's just far more convinient to get directly from point A to point B when one wants to.
Fortunatly, that may soon change. Some Minneapolis city concilmen support a concept create there of mass transit. It's on elevated tracks crisscrossing the city, like trains. Unlike the trains, however, they'd have small cars on them. They'd have only one row and some trunk space. The person would go to one of the stations that are as easier to get to as hailing a cab. Then, slide the credit card through the register at the station, and a car waiting on the side of these tracks comes. There's a little computer on the dashboard where you type in the address, and it takes you right there.
It sounds futuristic and impractical, but for such a radical concept, it surprised me that its pricetag for Minneapolis wouldn't be over a billion dollars. It'd be just $600-800 million, and as it's so convinient, the system would pay for itself in a few years. The technology, and a prototype, allready exist. All that needs to be done is to build one.

Now that's a really interesting idea. Maybe that could be incorporated into the mass transit of cities in NS.

The price of gas would not immediately make me change my vehicle. It's far easier to keep spending tens of dollars on gas, than it is to invest tens of thousands in a new vehicle. I'm happy if what I'm driving gets at least 25mpg.

On the subject of SUVs and trucks...in my country, all vehicles over the size of a passenger car would have to made of glass. This has a number of positive effects:
1) they are less of a hazard because normal vehicle's drivers can see through the damn things.
2) they are much lighter than when made of metals, so they use less gas.
3) the inconsiderate, over-bearing bastards and power-mad housewives that drive them now have to be CAREFUL, lest they annihilate themselves by driving like morons, as per usual.

Oh, and Jesus would never drive a BMW, because he could never pass the asshole certification required at the dealership prior to purchasing.

>:)

Today's gas prices.
http://www.amyletter.com/weblog/hello/126/894/400/arm%20and%20leg.jpg

What I don't understand is why people started buying SUV's AFTER they knew full well that prices would rise. Did they not believe it and think it was some stupid marketing ploy or something?

I'm happy with my Corolla for now...gas mileage is decent, but I hope to get a hybrid when I get the funds set aside.

(post by Angelina)

Alright you know what sucks. The gas mileage on my Porsche Boxster.

Or maybe it is just the bad gas prices. I have an MBA, and I think that the gas prices in California may top $3 over summer for the premium gas. Not so bad here on the east coast thank god.

The Daily Show put it best
"Gas prices in America rose once again today, making them only half what they are in Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, Britain, and the rest of this small region (Picture of the world)."

I'm also tired of hearing that it's "patriotic" to drive a hybrid, or "What would Jesus Drive". Honestly, get better tactics to convince people to drive hybrid.

It's like this, Gaeltach--us Americans aren't necessarily stupid so much as we lack foresight and we're easily convinced by tv commercials. Okay, maybe we are largely stupid--I don't know.

But we really do lack foresight, and quite honestly, I don't give a rat's ass if some Hummer driver has to drop a c-note in gas every week. We've been paying too little for gas for far too long, and it's about damn time we joined the rest of the world. Maybe the prices will force real movement on CAFE standards again, a closure of the SUV loophole, and movement toward alternative energy sources.

(post by Angelina)

I have an MBA, and I think that the gas prices in California may top $3 over summer for the premium gas. So...why did you tell us you have an MBA?

It's like this, Gaeltach--us Americans aren't necessarily stupid so much as we lack foresight and we're easily convinced by tv commercials. Okay, maybe we are largely stupid--I don't know.

But we really do lack foresight,
Speak for yourself.

The Daily Show put it best
"Gas prices in America rose once again today, making them only half what they are in Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, Britain, and the rest of this small region (Picture of the world)."
It's just God's / the Market's way of telling America that it is uncompetitive. :lol:

Seriously, it needs to get a grip on itself. OK, so people drive long distances. But with a fleet averaging 20mpg, jeez, it's no wonder the energy situation sucks.

(post by Angelina)

I have an MBA, and I think that the gas prices in California may top $3 over summer for the premium gas. So...why did you tell us you have an MBA?

Just so people know I come from an economics background.

It's like this, Gaeltach--us Americans aren't necessarily stupid so much as we lack foresight and we're easily convinced by tv commercials. Okay, maybe we are largely stupid--I don't know.

But we really do lack foresight,
Speak for yourself.Nah-I think I prefer speaking for everyone. It's my way.

And thanks for not bothering to actually comment on any of the more substantive parts of my post.

(post by Angelina)

I have an MBA, and I think that the gas prices in California may top $3 over summer for the premium gas. So...why did you tell us you have an MBA?

Just so people know I come from an economics background.Bah, you silly business types.
Should have taken a real degree, like engineering. :wink:

It's like this, Gaeltach--us Americans aren't necessarily stupid so much as we lack foresight and we're easily convinced by tv commercials. Okay, maybe we are largely stupid--I don't know.

But we really do lack foresight,
Speak for yourself.Nah-I think I prefer speaking for everyone. It's my way.

And thanks for not bothering to actually comment on any of the more substantive parts of my post.What, that you believe we've been paying too little for gas?
That's your opinion, hardly needs commenting on.

Or perhaps the part concerning CAFE standards, closure of the SUV loophole, and movement toward alternative energy sources.

Perhaps I didn't comment there because I didn't disagree with you concerning that statement.

Don't assume too much.
I didn't say speak for yourself in some attempt to discredit your arguement, simply a request that you speak for yourself.

I work in construction, I own a small Ford Ranger which gets decent gas mileage, and I spend about 80-100 dollars on gas a month. If I could get a small little hybrid, I would probably do it, but unfortuantly I make jack shit for money and I'm ultra poor so new vehicles are a impossibility for me. Hell even maintaining the one I currently own is next to impossible.

(post by Angelina)

I have an MBA, and I think that the gas prices in California may top $3 over summer for the premium gas. So...why did you tell us you have an MBA?

Just so people know I come from an economics background.Bah, you silly business types.
Should have taken a real degree, like engineering. :wink:

Well I'm a woman making $125K a year.

And my husband and the owner of this character, that silly businessman is making $5.3 million a year on average.

(post by Angelina)

I have an MBA, and I think that the gas prices in California may top $3 over summer for the premium gas. So...why did you tell us you have an MBA?

Just so people know I come from an economics background.Bah, you silly business types.
Should have taken a real degree, like engineering. :wink:

Well I'm a woman making $125K a year.

And my husband and the owner of this character, that silly businessman is making $5.3 million a year on average.Yeah, but....damn.
Well, I've got interesting classes...wait, no, my aero/astro prof. hates his students something fierce.
Argh!

All that money and can't afford a digital camera, eh?

All that money and can't afford a digital camera, eh?

Never said I couldn't afford one. I just don't bother to buy one because I don't care about all that stupid technology.

It's not that we don't want to switch to somthing else, it's just that there is no mass produced viable alternative to the gasoline automobile.

It's not that we don't want to switch to somthing else, it's just that there is no mass produced viable alternative to the gasoline automobile.

It's not that we don't want to switch to somthing else, it's just that there is no mass produced viable alternative to the gasoline automobile.

And it would cost a load in research and development to get a good one out there.

It's not that we don't want to switch to somthing else, it's just that there is no mass produced viable alternative to the gasoline automobile.

And it would cost a load in research and development to get a good one out there.

Gonna have to do it sometime.

It's not that we don't want to switch to somthing else, it's just that there is no mass produced viable alternative to the gasoline automobile.

And it would cost a load in research and development to get a good one out there.

Gonna have to do it sometime.You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, it usually takes high prices for a long time in order to jumpstart that kind of action, and coupled with the diminishing supplies and the greater usage by countries like China, gas prices are going to stay high and get higher for the foreseeable future.

:arrow: Toyota Corolla - MSRP = $15,000 MPG = 29

:arrow: Toyota Prius - MSRP = $20,000 MPG = 44

Hybrid costs $5,000 more and gets 15 MPG more than the Corollla

Drive 100,000 miles: Corolla gallons of gas used = 3449
Prius gallons of gas used = 2273

Prius saves you from buying 1176 gallons of gas, which at $3 a gallon
that equals $3528 and at $4 it is $4704.

Counting the extra cost of the Prius, extra taxes, larger loan payment and the cost of replacing the batteries every 5 years or so, equals a bad deal for a Prius buyer.

I was planning on making my next car a fuel efficient one anyway--it's the responsible and patriotic thing to do.

Patriotic thing to do? :shock:

CARMEL, Maine -- Seven people, including at least three young children, were killed yesterday when their sport utility vehicle crashed on Interstate 95 after speeding into the breakdown lane to pass two cars, state police said...

The Ford Explorer went out of control after clipping one of the cars it was trying to pass...

Oh My God! Evil sentient SUV's! It kidnapped some people and drove like a maniac on the expressway! Why wasn't somebody driving?!

Oh... someone was? Then why weren't they blamed for this accident?

...or at least mentioned?

I was just pointing out the dangerous nature of SUV's. My dad, step-mom, and mom all have an SUV, they dont drive 103 MPH in rural maine. (The followup story in the paper yesterday revealed the speed)

OMG!!! The gas prices r soo high now!

I saw on a poll that most Americans will use more fuel efficient cars when gas reaches $3.50.

Initially, I was very angry as prices began to rise....not because it was hurting me (I have a pretty fuel-efficient car, 29 mpg), but because I viewed it as more price-gouging by the oil companies (Bush's friends, don't you know)...

But I have since come to see it as opportunity. I am convinced that the majority of Americans WILL NOT switch to more fuel efficient cars unless they are literally forced to by economics. So if gasoline becomes more expensive, maybe they'll stop buying gigantic SUVs and purchase more environmentally friendly vehicles.

This may sound un-American. Perhaps it is. But look, ladies and gentlemen...this rampant consumerism that America currently espouses is NOT sustainable. This is not liberalism talking, it's pure common sense. The Earth is a finite resource. There is only so much oil (among other natural resources) to go around. Indeed, the OIL-based economy is a temporary one. Planetary oil reserves may be depleted within some of our lifetimes. Considering that oil is used for many other things besides driving cars (it's used in making plastics, medicines, electrical power, exc), we should act decisively and NOW to streamline all sectors of our economy that use oil. This will not only benefit our environment AND give us more time to devise a long term solution; it will ALSO decrease the amount of money we need to spend buying foreign oil.

Americans, the ball is in your court. Our beloved United States is the world's LARGEST consumer of oil. We need to buckle down and do this thing as an example to the rest of the world. Don't wait for gas prices to go sky-high....invest in more fuel-efficient cars NOW and demand higher standards from your elected public officials. In a consumer economy like ours, YOU have the last say, ultimately, because you can vote with both your ballot and your dollar.

I was really mad at first about gas prices getting so high, too...because we can't afford to go on a really awesome summer car trip. But in the end, the environment matters a lot more than a vacation. So I'm looking forward to seeing if people begin to push for advances in fuel cell research to make it more efficient, so we won't have to bother with mineral extraction at all.
Another thing-apparently a hybrid SUV is being put on the market this summer. How ironic is that?

Currently in Dallas, gas is about $1.98 a gallon. :shock:

I guess as soon as I can save up to get one.

a million dollars :wink:

Currently in Dallas, gas is about $1.98 a gallon. :shock:

I guess as soon as I can save up to get one.

Almost 2 bucks.

Man, once I move to college I'm using my road bike to get me everywhere, not some clunky car. Get some panniers attached and it'll be so sweet.

I've been reading about this more and more--the issue seems to be one of the time it takes for the effects of higher gas prices to filter down through the system, especially to US manufacturers.

I remember the gas crunch in the 70s, although not as a driver, and I also remember that what literally forced US manufacturers to make fuel efficient cars was the loss of market share to the Japanese because of high gas prices--but it took the US at least 5 years first to recognize the problem and then to offer real alternatives. By then, the market share the Japanese had grabbed was never coming back.

Hopefully, they're not so shortsighted anymore, but I doubt it. But here's an example of how the market has changed. Just yesterday, a friend of mine who was given a Mazda Tribute--a small SUV--got tired of the gas it was using and so bought a Scion--Toyota's new brand. They sacrificed some interior room, although not much, because it gets nearly twice as many miles to the gallon. And the Toyota hybrid is being sold in most dealerships at or above the sticker cost because it's so in demand.

Ouch...what about the Ford Pinto? Forced economy ain't always good.

As for me, I plan on driving the Peterbilt 351 from Duel and laughing at you all in your little cars - until I see the fuel bills.

I want an electric commuter car with solar panels on it's roof. 100 mile full charge range and get up to 75 MPH. Keep it under $15K and I'd be the first one in line. These Hybrids are a waste of time and money.

Most people require a short range car to get to work and do some shopping. Solor panels for recharging at home is better than charging the vehicle using "the fossil fuel burning GRID".

Use the gas burners for long trips.

:arrow: Toyota Corolla - MSRP = $15,000 MPG = 29

:arrow: Toyota Prius - MSRP = $20,000 MPG = 44

Hybrid costs $5,000 more and gets 15 MPG more than the Corollla

Drive 100,000 miles: Corolla gallons of gas used = 3449
Prius gallons of gas used = 2273

Prius saves you from buying 1176 gallons of gas, which at $3 a gallon
that equals $3528 and at $4 it is $4704.

Counting the extra cost of the Prius, extra taxes, larger loan payment and the cost of replacing the batteries every 5 years or so, equals a bad deal for a Prius buyer.
Not such a bad deal if faced with physical shortage (which in the coming years is enevitable). In that case, you will have made the initial payment already, and lost money over the life of the car, but your more fuel efficient car will actually have fuel in it during a supply interruption, while SUVs will burn through their tank quickly, and be left going nowhere.

Besides, new technology is usually crap when it starts. Surely you're not suggesting we don't bother looking into alternatives just because they are not good value for money from the very beginning? That truly is self-defeating.

The numbers are a little off--according to the Toyota website, the Prius is closer to 21 grand than 20, but averages 55 mpg overall, 60 in the city and 51 on the highway. There is a Corolla for around 15K, and it does get 29 mpg in the city, 38 on the highway, for an average of 34 mpg.

Hybrid costs 6K more and gets, on average, 21 mpg more. And depending on the kind of driving you do, that number can vary wildly, since the Prius does better in the city while the Corolla does better on the highway.

Over 100K miles, the Corolla uses 2941 gallons.

Over 100K miles, the Prius uses 1818 gallons, for a difference of 1123 gallons. At $3 a gallon, that's a difference of $3369.00. At $4 a gallon, that's $4492.00.

The gap is closing between the two. Factor in the lower emissions from the Prius, the tax breaks for buying one available in some states, and the fact that Toyota has improved the technology twice in terms of better mileage and engine power since introducing the car, and the Prius looks better and better all the time.

I've been reading about this more and more--the issue seems to be one of the time it takes for the effects of higher gas prices to filter down through the system, especially to US manufacturers.

I remember the gas crunch in the 70s, although not as a driver, and I also remember that what literally forced US manufacturers to make fuel efficient cars was the loss of market share to the Japanese because of high gas prices--but it took the US at least 5 years first to recognize the problem and then to offer real alternatives. By then, the market share the Japanese had grabbed was never coming back.

Hopefully, they're not so shortsighted anymore, but I doubt it. But here's an example of how the market has changed. Just yesterday, a friend of mine who was given a Mazda Tribute--a small SUV--got tired of the gas it was using and so bought a Scion--Toyota's new brand. They sacrificed some interior room, although not much, because it gets nearly twice as many miles to the gallon. And the Toyota hybrid is being sold in most dealerships at or above the sticker cost because it's so in demand.
This time, if such an oil shock hits us, both Japanese and American auto companies will loose out. While the Japanese have more fuel-efficient cars overall, they have been led into thinking that they didn't need to be as fuel efficient as they used to be, thanks to relatively low oil prices.
However, this may change with the advant of hybrids. While they may not be as large of a market as some like to think, relax a little. In the past five years, the marketshare of hybrids has grown astronomically, and since Toyota has actually figured out how to make hybrids reliable cars, growth has only accelarated. GM, Ford, and Diamler-Chrysler have all chipped in on developing hybrids, though slower than Toyota. Slated to appear in showrooms in the next three years are some hybrid pickups, vans, even SUVs. They may not be as great as other models yet, but they have come a long way.
Of course, my biggest fear is selling them fast enough. My biggest fear is that both Asian and US autos will decline against European models. Sure, they're super-efficient. However, most of the ones I've seen are tiny, and give very little legroom even to drivers (and I'm 6'). I'd rather loose market share to Brazilian autos instead of those things.

A recent informal survey of SUV drivers in NYC asked that question of men and women. The answer was that even at $3.00 or better they wouldn't give up their SUV's.

Personally I would like to see there be a move by the feds to create incentives for a hydrogen production/distribution network. The technology needs further development to lower the cost to something comparable to oil.

Hydrogen will be able to be used for heating as well as an energy source for vehicles.

The fuel proposed target date is about 2010 with full production of vehicles planned to kick in for about 20 years. That is way too long a time frame.

SHL

However, Hydrogen power isn't clean unless it is properly refined. Also, creating the proper infrastructure to distribute it will take hella long. I say we all go buy Segways.
The only byproduct of hydrogen power is water.

It's not exactly on topic but for those of us that can't run out and pay tens of thousands of dollars for a hybid car, here are some simple and inexpensive ways to improve the fuel efficiency of your car.

Check the air pressure in your tires. Tire pressure guages are very cheap. You don't need any skill or apptritude to check tire pressure. If your tires are not inflated properly you will burn more fuel and wear out tires quickly. Tires are made from oil. The price of tires increases with the price of oil.

Maintain your car's engine. That light by the speedometer that says 'service engine soon' or something similar isn't a decoration. Check your engine oil regularly. If your engine is well lubricated it will be more efficient. Change your oil according to manufacturers suggestion. Keeping your engine oil at the proper level and making sure your oil is clean will increase gas mileage and keep your car running longer.

Check your transmission fluid and change your transmission filter or have it changed. If the fluid level of your transmission is low your engine has to work harder to change gears if you have an automatic transmission. If your transmission filter is dirty your engine will work harder as well.

If you have $30000 burning a hole in your pocket go out and buy a new car. If not take care of the car you have.

On the subject, I guess $4 a gollon would make me take a serious look at a small, boring, bland car.

The only byproduct of hydrogen power is water.
Only if you are looking at the tail end of the energy system. Looking at the entire system, there are byproducts from the energy sources used to extract and compress the hydrogen, as well as the systems used during the construction of the hydrogen plants. Otherwise, it's a bit like saying that the only byproduct of electricity is heat and electromagnetic fields.

I love cars. Always have, probably always will. They represent freedom and individuality. I grew up in the musclecar era and was a serious wrenchhead. I love the technicological and esthetic developement classics throughout the years represent. I just don't like the internal combustion engine and don't think it's a practical aplication to human transportation needs for our future

The internal combustion engine is just an elaborate harnessing of mans old friend, Fire. Haven't we progressed beyond that? I mean it's the 21st century people, anyone but me think it's about time to embrace methods of transportation that don't involve keeping a fire fueled? I mean we're able to harness the energy that binds molecules together and you people are still talking about how efficiently you can burn something for energy.

I love a restored muscle car, the big powerful engines and shiny paint. But I look upon them the same way I do ornate, shiny suits of armour. They are tributes to craftmanship and achievements in technological advance, but they are relics of the past that have no practical aplication in our daily lives, objects d'art kept for their esthetic, historical and nostalgic value.

It's time to let go of this outdated method of propulsion completely and embrace the future. The only thing holding us back is the intrenched infastructure, the profitable industries that feed off this beast and will try to coerce us into maintaining it so they don't loose a seat at the table. We have to send the message that we won't accept that and they must adapt or perish, because we are changing.

The only byproduct of hydrogen power is water.
Only if you are looking at the tail end of the energy system. Looking at the entire system, there are byproducts from the energy sources used to extract and compress the hydrogen, as well as the systems used during the construction of the hydrogen plants. Otherwise, it's a bit like saying that the only byproduct of electricity is heat and electromagnetic fields.
Well, as you said, most technologies are bad when they start off. Hybrids you think have some defects, but they've come a long way since their introduction in 2000. Similarly, hydrogen fuel cells have advanced in leaps and bounds, and the making of hydrogen is getting better. So far, ERTs have reached 0.8, far higher than before. Of course, as you'll point out, it'll never compete with oil's ERT of 100. But it's no reason not to hope. It's really a start.

Good points, minor correction; the energy returned on invested for oil was 100 at the start of the oil era, but it is down to 10 now and dropping. It varies a bit, of course, in the US it fell through 4 a while back and has pretty much reached parity, except for a few locations.

Still, 10:1 is a hell of a lot better than pretty much everything out there, which is why anything but the most gradual move imaginable is so problematic. It isn't a massive corporate conspiracy like some people say, it is a simple matter of competition, and oil is so damn good.

Hybrids have indeed come a long way, and it will take some more, pretty radical changes, spread over a long period of time, for oil to be replaced or at least largely displaced as automotive fuel, assuming it it achievable, and Mankind actually achieves it. Not to mention oil gradually becoming a less attractive energy investment. That side of the situation actually helps, assuming everything is managed correctly. After the unimaginable infrastructure considerations, my biggest source of scepticism about a new, oil-less industrial civilisation, is that Mankind may simply not cut it.

If you hate the high gas prices come here to california. We pay the most in the U.S.


*Damn anti-pollution additives*

Talk to your elected officials about your high gas prices, they are the ones who don't allow ethanol products.

In South Dakota our prices are always below the national average, why? Because ethanol prices, like diesel, don't vary as much as regular gas. It always cost about the same to produce ethanol, so the prices always stay about the same, the national average is about what? $2.09? Ours is only $1.90, some places sell for cheaper because they rely on pop sales and what not to make money, they can sell gas at a loss if it attracts more people. I can get gas for as low as $1.82 at some places, I always by a pop or candy bar from those places to help out.

Besides, compared to the rest of the World we pay very little for gas, but we also drive alot more than the rest of the world. In Britain for example, the price of gas is like $5 a gallon, but then again they don't really drive anywhere, a trucker could go all the way accross the country and be home by supper. (assuming the unloading doesn't take long) It could take a week for a trucker to go from NY to LA and back again. So we all pay the same amount total, the US just pays less per gallon.

The numbers are a little off--according to the Toyota website, the Prius is closer to 21 grand than 20, but averages 55 mpg overall, 60 in the city and 51 on the highway. There is a Corolla for around 15K, and it does get 29 mpg in the city, 38 on the highway, for an average of 34 mpg.

Hybrid costs 6K more and gets, on average, 21 mpg more. And depending on the kind of driving you do, that number can vary wildly, since the Prius does better in the city while the Corolla does better on the highway.

Over 100K miles, the Corolla uses 2941 gallons.

Over 100K miles, the Prius uses 1818 gallons, for a difference of 1123 gallons. At $3 a gallon, that's a difference of $3369.00. At $4 a gallon, that's $4492.00.

The gap is closing between the two. Factor in the lower emissions from the Prius, the tax breaks for buying one available in some states, and the fact that Toyota has improved the technology twice in terms of better mileage and engine power since introducing the car, and the Prius looks better and better all the time.

++++++++++++++++++++
My stats come from Consumer Reports, which I trust a whole lot more than the manufacturors. For most people a hybrid does not make financial sense - let the well to do and the practicing enviromentalist buy them. 100,000 miles is 8-10 years for a lot of people, and you still have to replace the batteries, which are about $2,400 - today.

See my earlier note about an electric car.

OMG!!! The gas prices r soo high now!

++++++++++++++++++

Gas is cheaper today at 2 dollars a gallon than it was back in 1975.

Retail gas per gallon prices adjusted for inflation in 2004 dollars:

1950 = $2.92
1980 = $2.85
2004 = $2.00

We are just spoiled with low prices but then again we don't get taxed up the wazoo like Europeans.

Yes, $2 is well below past peaks. I think maybe start complaining once it passes through $3. At present, these prices are some of the lowest in the world, and it all rings hollow.

I love cars. Always have, probably always will. They represent freedom and individuality. I grew up in the musclecar era and was a serious wrenchhead. I love the technicological and esthetic developement classics throughout the years represent. I just don't like the internal combustion engine and don't think it's a practical aplication to human transportation needs for our future

The internal combustion engine is just an elaborate harnessing of mans old friend, Fire. Haven't we progressed beyond that? I mean it's the 21st century people, anyone but me think it's about time to embrace methods of transportation that don't involve keeping a fire fueled? I mean we're able to harness the energy that binds molecules together and you people are still talking about how efficiently you can burn something for energy.

I love a restored muscle car, the big powerful engines and shiny paint. But I look upon them the same way I do ornate, shiny suits of armour. They are tributes to craftmanship and achievements in technological advance, but they are relics of the past that have no practical aplication in our daily lives, objects d'art kept for their esthetic, historical and nostalgic value.

It's time to let go of this outdated method of propulsion completely and embrace the future. The only thing holding us back is the intrenched infastructure, the profitable industries that feed off this beast and will try to coerce us into maintaining it so they don't loose a seat at the table. We have to send the message that we won't accept that and they must adapt or perish, because we are changing.

+++++++++++++++++

Sooooo, when are you going to market this new propulsion system of yours. I wait with baited breathe.

Oh and while I am waiting - if you happen to have around 20 million bucks lying around, I could use it to perfect my idea for an electric cars. :?

I say we drill Alaska all the way.....people are worried about the poor caribou.....i say we feed them to the homeless...

I say we drill Alaska all the way.....people are worried about the poor caribou.....i say we feed them to the homeless...
Heh, you're looking at a best probable case of 7GB total recoverable resource, a peak flow rate not exceeding 200kb/d, more likely little more than half that, and lots of new Arctic pipeline. World consumption is over 80mb/d, America's is a quarter of that, so it will be a drop in the ocean. One last big field, in a swiss-cheesed continent.

I say we drill Alaska all the way.....people are worried about the poor caribou.....i say we feed them to the homeless...
Heh, you're looking at a best probable case of 7GB total recoverable resource, a peak flow rate not exceeding 200kb/d, more likely little more than half that, and lots of new Arctic pipeline. World consumption is over 80mb/d, America's is a quarter of that, so it will be a drop in the ocean. One last big field, in a swiss-cheesed continent.

+++++++++++++++++++

There are no caribou involved. The land is as barren as the Sahara Desert.

Where did you get those stats?

Where did you get those stats?
Don't know exactly, probably the New Scientist magazine. I tend to stay well-informed about these things, I study engineering, plan to go into the energy industry. I am the Official Voice of Energy Market Pessimism on these forums, LOL.

Oh, the world statistics, off the US EIA website.

Where did you get those stats?
Don't know exactly, probably the New Scientist magazine. I tend to stay well-informed about these things, I study engineering, plan to go into the energy industry. I am the Official Voice of Energy Market Pessimism on these forums, LOL.

Oh, the world statistics, off the US EIA website.

+++++++++++++++++++++=

Try this on for size:

:arrow: http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm

That is dated in 2003.

Ha! Mah pimpmobile costs me about $50 per week when I drive it. And that is just pimpin around!

Oh btw Ive got the bling blingest idea for electric cars, but i cant put it here cos i aint copyrighted it yet and i know u will all steal it.

Oh btw Ive got the bling blingest idea for electric cars, but i cant put it here cos i aint copyrighted it yet and i know u will all steal it.

++++++++++++++++++++++

You mean patent.

I hope I will be driving your idea next year and saving myself thousands of dollars in fuel cost.

Excuse me if I do not hold my breathe...

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

I can't speak for the American people. I speak for the Italian people. We are tired of capitalism! :!:

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.
My dream car is a pimped out Geo Metro, so none of this applies to me.

Mmmm... big fat man in a little black Geo, bouncing on hydralics, stereo bumping...

The numbers are a little off--according to the Toyota website, the Prius is closer to 21 grand than 20, but averages 55 mpg overall, 60 in the city and 51 on the highway. There is a Corolla for around 15K, and it does get 29 mpg in the city, 38 on the highway, for an average of 34 mpg.

Hybrid costs 6K more and gets, on average, 21 mpg more. And depending on the kind of driving you do, that number can vary wildly, since the Prius does better in the city while the Corolla does better on the highway.

Over 100K miles, the Corolla uses 2941 gallons.

Over 100K miles, the Prius uses 1818 gallons, for a difference of 1123 gallons. At $3 a gallon, that's a difference of $3369.00. At $4 a gallon, that's $4492.00.

The gap is closing between the two. Factor in the lower emissions from the Prius, the tax breaks for buying one available in some states, and the fact that Toyota has improved the technology twice in terms of better mileage and engine power since introducing the car, and the Prius looks better and better all the time.

++++++++++++++++++++
My stats come from Consumer Reports, which I trust a whole lot more than the manufacturors. For most people a hybrid does not make financial sense - let the well to do and the practicing enviromentalist buy them. 100,000 miles is 8-10 years for a lot of people, and you still have to replace the batteries, which are about $2,400 - today.

See my earlier note about an electric car.That's fair as far as your numbers are concerned, but you're crazy if you think it takes 8-10 years to run up 100K miles on a car now. Average mileage for a dealer who is reselling a car is 12-15K miles a year--low mileage is 10K miles a year. And when I was selling cars a few years ago, the average was closer to 25K a year for what we took in as trades.

As to your remark about the well-to-do buying the hybrids, well, $21K for a car isn't a lot in today's market. The well-to-do that I deal with these days don't look at a car below $40K. The nice thing about these particular hybrids is that you don't have to be rich to be able to afford one.

it's sad...

they've begun measuring SUVs' fuel mileage in gallons per mile.

of course, no one in Europe is complaining because everyone has a tiny coupe with about a 5 gallon tank, so it's only costing about, what, 25 euros a fillup?

i think the SUVs should have additional tanks in the cargo room behind 2nd row seats... who has 8 people to carry around all the time anyway? at least this way the tank would last it until the next fueling station.

Why are we being told the same old line about running out of oil all of the time. We were suppose to be out of oil 30 years ago and then it was 20 years ago - now it is 2030 or is it 2040.

Why does California have a shortage of electricity - because they wouldn't allow power plants to be built. Why will we run out of oil in the USA - because we will not allow oil companies to drill for oil.

:idea: Let's drill for oil in Alaska and offshore.

I love cars. Always have, probably always will. They represent freedom and individuality. I grew up in the musclecar era and was a serious wrenchhead. I love the technicological and esthetic developement classics throughout the years represent. I just don't like the internal combustion engine and don't think it's a practical aplication to human transportation needs for our future

The internal combustion engine is just an elaborate harnessing of mans old friend, Fire. Haven't we progressed beyond that? I mean it's the 21st century people, anyone but me think it's about time to embrace methods of transportation that don't involve keeping a fire fueled? I mean we're able to harness the energy that binds molecules together and you people are still talking about how efficiently you can burn something for energy.

I love a restored muscle car, the big powerful engines and shiny paint. But I look upon them the same way I do ornate, shiny suits of armour. They are tributes to craftmanship and achievements in technological advance, but they are relics of the past that have no practical aplication in our daily lives, objects d'art kept for their esthetic, historical and nostalgic value.

It's time to let go of this outdated method of propulsion completely and embrace the future. The only thing holding us back is the intrenched infastructure, the profitable industries that feed off this beast and will try to coerce us into maintaining it so they don't loose a seat at the table. We have to send the message that we won't accept that and they must adapt or perish, because we are changing.

+++++++++++++++++

Sooooo, when are you going to market this new propulsion system of yours. I wait with baited breathe.

Oh and while I am waiting - if you happen to have around 20 million bucks lying around, I could use it to perfect my idea for an electric cars. :?Thanks for the credit but it's not my propulsion system. Fuel cell technology and electric drive trains have advanced to the point to be a viable option for our future needs. Billions of dollars are spent just convincing us that the fossil fuel industry is our friend and our hope for the future and the car manufacturers are producing the best, newest thing and we should buy it and convincing our politicians that the oil industry knows whats best for us and that truck sized passenger vehicles are entitled to pollute as much as trucks (which they convinced us are entitled to pollute more than cars because we need trucks to keep america working or something like that). If we could somehow divert those funds into R+D on alternate propulsion systems to the internal combustion engine and an infastructure to support them, you could probably buy a fuel cell vehicle at your local Ford dealer by midsummer.

The numbers are a little off--according to the Toyota website, the Prius is closer to 21 grand than 20, but averages 55 mpg overall, 60 in the city and 51 on the highway. There is a Corolla for around 15K, and it does get 29 mpg in the city, 38 on the highway, for an average of 34 mpg.

Hybrid costs 6K more and gets, on average, 21 mpg more. And depending on the kind of driving you do, that number can vary wildly, since the Prius does better in the city while the Corolla does better on the highway.

Over 100K miles, the Corolla uses 2941 gallons.

Over 100K miles, the Prius uses 1818 gallons, for a difference of 1123 gallons. At $3 a gallon, that's a difference of $3369.00. At $4 a gallon, that's $4492.00.

The gap is closing between the two. Factor in the lower emissions from the Prius, the tax breaks for buying one available in some states, and the fact that Toyota has improved the technology twice in terms of better mileage and engine power since introducing the car, and the Prius looks better and better all the time.

++++++++++++++++++++
My stats come from Consumer Reports, which I trust a whole lot more than the manufacturors. For most people a hybrid does not make financial sense - let the well to do and the practicing enviromentalist buy them. 100,000 miles is 8-10 years for a lot of people, and you still have to replace the batteries, which are about $2,400 - today.

See my earlier note about an electric car.That's fair as far as your numbers are concerned, but you're crazy if you think it takes 8-10 years to run up 100K miles on a car now. Average mileage for a dealer who is reselling a car is 12-15K miles a year--low mileage is 10K miles a year. And when I was selling cars a few years ago, the average was closer to 25K a year for what we took in as trades.

As to your remark about the well-to-do buying the hybrids, well, $21K for a car isn't a lot in today's market. The well-to-do that I deal with these days don't look at a car below $40K. The nice thing about these particular hybrids is that you don't have to be rich to be able to afford one.

++++++++++++++++++++

That was when gas was preceived as being cheap. People will be driving less until they get use to the new elevated price. Just like in the mid 70's when gas prices more than doubled - people started driving less and then buying a higher mpg vehicles. It took about 5 years for people to start driving more. Two decades later they started buying bigger vehicle again.

I personally drive about 14k a year - though I will be cutting back soon if the price of gas doesn't dip soon.

I define well to do as having some bucks left over after the mortgage, car payment, food, energy payment, health insurance and IRA. To a lot of people - 21k is their yearly GROSS salary, if they work overtime.

I love cars. Always have, probably always will. They represent freedom and individuality. I grew up in the musclecar era and was a serious wrenchhead. I love the technicological and esthetic developement classics throughout the years represent. I just don't like the internal combustion engine and don't think it's a practical aplication to human transportation needs for our future

The internal combustion engine is just an elaborate harnessing of mans old friend, Fire. Haven't we progressed beyond that? I mean it's the 21st century people, anyone but me think it's about time to embrace methods of transportation that don't involve keeping a fire fueled? I mean we're able to harness the energy that binds molecules together and you people are still talking about how efficiently you can burn something for energy.

I love a restored muscle car, the big powerful engines and shiny paint. But I look upon them the same way I do ornate, shiny suits of armour. They are tributes to craftmanship and achievements in technological advance, but they are relics of the past that have no practical aplication in our daily lives, objects d'art kept for their esthetic, historical and nostalgic value.

It's time to let go of this outdated method of propulsion completely and embrace the future. The only thing holding us back is the intrenched infastructure, the profitable industries that feed off this beast and will try to coerce us into maintaining it so they don't loose a seat at the table. We have to send the message that we won't accept that and they must adapt or perish, because we are changing.

+++++++++++++++++

Sooooo, when are you going to market this new propulsion system of yours. I wait with baited breathe.

Oh and while I am waiting - if you happen to have around 20 million bucks lying around, I could use it to perfect my idea for an electric cars. :?Thanks for the credit but it's not my propulsion system. Fuel cell technology and electric drive trains have advanced to the point to be a viable option for our future needs. Billions of dollars are spent just convincing us that the fossil fuel industry is our friend and our hope for the future and the car manufacturers are producing the best, newest thing and we should buy it and convincing our politicians that the oil industry knows whats best for us and that truck sized passenger vehicles are entitled to pollute as much as trucks (which they convinced us are entitled to pollute more than cars because we need trucks to keep america working or something like that). If we could somehow divert those funds into R+D on alternate propulsion systems to the internal combustion engine and an infastructure to support them, you could probably buy a fuel cell vehicle at your local Ford dealer by midsummer.

+++++++++++++

Ahhh. The old "Oil Company Conspiracy THEORY". If there is money to be made then someone will do it. If YOU think it is possible - then why don't you use up some shoe leather and make it possible? Maybe because it is easier to bitch than to do.

Fuel cells are still to fragile for automobiles, but not for long. How does one make hydrogen without fossil fuels? Photocells are not yet cost effective, but not for long. Please not windmills!

Try this on for size:

:arrow: http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm

That is dated in 2003.
No-one in the energy industry treats USGS statistics with anything but frustration and contempt.

Try this on for size:

:arrow: http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm

That is dated in 2003.
No-one in the energy industry treats USGS statistics with anything but frustration and contempt.

As opposed to what? The conspiracy theories that the oil is going to run out really soon?

I asked one guy that worked for the gas companies and he said drillable oil may run out but we have other sources(shale) that we can get it. Just takes longer to convert.

No-one in the energy industry treats USGS statistics with anything but frustration and contempt.

As opposed to what? The conspiracy theories that the oil is going to run out really soon?

I asked one guy that worked for the gas companies and he said drillable oil may run out but we have other sources(shale) that we can get it. Just takes longer to convert.
The reasons for the derision of USGS statistics are more to do with the way they were compiled. If you feel like looking up the criticisms that have been made, feel free to do so. The short story is, they distorted Monte Carlo simulations in order to produce flawed data. Their methodology was political rather than scientific.

The conspiracy theories, are not theory but a reality to which the oil companies are gradually facing up. The simple fact is that discoveries have virtually ceased, and have been stagnant for many, many years, while demand grows to record levels. "Running out" is a senationalist over-simplification used to undermine the more complex underlying reality.

Shale oil isn't even oil anyway, it is organic material that never made it. That sort of thing, and tar sands, is a mining, not a drilling operation. The energy return on energy invested is pitiful - that is far more important than economic considerations.

$100 a barrel for oil is being quoted by leading economists as something to be expected in the next year or so ... if America can't get over its love of gas-guzzling and the Chinese economy goes on expanding at such a rate that it will soon overtake the USA ...

$100 a barrel for oil is being quoted by leading economists as something to be expected in the next year or so ... if America can't get over its love of gas-guzzling and the Chinese economy goes on expanding at such a rate that it will soon overtake the USA ...
At the start of the next decade, perhaps. $50 per barrel is not likely to be exceeded on the timescale you suggest.

No-one in the energy industry treats USGS statistics with anything but frustration and contempt.

As opposed to what? The conspiracy theories that the oil is going to run out really soon?

I asked one guy that worked for the gas companies and he said drillable oil may run out but we have other sources(shale) that we can get it. Just takes longer to convert.
The reasons for the derision of USGS statistics are more to do with the way they were compiled. If you feel like looking up the criticisms that have been made, feel free to do so. The short story is, they distorted Monte Carlo simulations in order to produce flawed data. Their methodology was political rather than scientific.

The conspiracy theories, are not theory but a reality to which the oil companies are gradually facing up. The simple fact is that discoveries have virtually ceased, and have been stagnant for many, many years, while demand grows to record levels. "Running out" is a senationalist over-simplification used to undermine the more complex underlying reality.

Shale oil isn't even oil anyway, it is organic material that never made it. That sort of thing, and tar sands, is a mining, not a drilling operation. The energy return on energy invested is pitiful - that is far more important than economic considerations.

Mind you I am hardly an "expert" on the subject. I have heard the doom and gloom stuff before. But it is usally from people who for some reason hate this country and see the oil depleation as the doom of this nation. That usually makes me go :roll:

I would not know where to look up the data. Have a link?

Things are changing here. Hybrid cars are becoming the "in thing" It's not perfect but it's a big start.

The $100 a barrel prediciton? I remember hearing that back in the oil embargo.

With our press, if oil was running out; they would be running it for the sensationlistic aspects.....

China? I don't see how they are going to be able to handle the car levels. Even 1 car per household would make the roads unusable. I would tend to think their Goverment would pull a Singapore rulling on that one......

Try this on for size:

:arrow: http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm

That is dated in 2003.
No-one in the energy industry treats USGS statistics with anything but frustration and contempt.

++++++++++++++++

I would accept your opinion if you had wrote most instead of no-one, because almost all statements like yours are false.

Fact: If you do not drill for a new source of oil, you will not get anymore oil.

Fact: Most oil fields already drilled are on the down slope of production or will be in the next 10 years.

Fact: US oil production is on a downslope because the US will not allow the drilling of new oil finds.

Fact: The US has become more dependant on foreign oil because we will not allow oil companies to drill new oil finds.

Opec has indicated that other factors, like the situation in Iraq, are pushing up oil prices.

The 11-member cartel supplies about a third of the world's oil. Its daily output target is 23.5 million barrels per day, but members are already outstripping that by at least 2 million barrels a day, or 2.5% of global demand.

Opec president Purnomo Yusgiantoro said recently that the cartel could do little to pull prices back within Opec's target range of $22-28 a barrel.

Global demand for oil is growing rapidly.

The US is trying to replenish stock piles of petrol, which have fallen unusually low ahead of peak summer holiday demand, and Asian nations are trying to protect themselves from future price shocks by establishing their own strategic reserves.

All this activity has pulled speculative money into the oil market, pushing up prices further.

Also, the dollar has declined over the last three years or so, and oil is priced in the US currency.

A weak dollar is a universal concern among Opec members.


But the willingness to accept a price well above the target range is probably not just about the decline of the dollar.

They really rather like it.

Opec insists that the oil price is not the key to global economic performance.

UAE Minister Obaid al Nasseri says growth is stronger now than in 2002 despite the higher oil price.

Saudi Arabia is the big power in Opec.

It is by far the group's largest producer and has much larger known reserves than any other country.

The Saudi attitude to prices has evolved in the last few years.

A couple of years ago, the Petroleum Minister Ali al-Naimi was seen as a "price dove"; as being prepared to live with a relatively moderate oil price.

He always said that $25 a barrel for the Opec basket was about right - the middle of the group's official target range.

And yet, he came to Vienna an enthusiastic advocate of going ahead with the previously agreed output cut, even though prices are already well above the target.

Leo Drollas of the Centre for Global Energy Studies says the Saudis are no longer price doves.

The reason, he says, is that the government is spending more at home and needs a minimum price of around $30 a barrel for its spending plans this year.

He says they have to keep many constituencies, or interest groups, happy - the Royal Family, the middle classes and the religious establishment - and at the same time prevent fundamentalists doing real damage.

So there is a lot of spending on social welfare, hospitals, education and "to keep the security services on the tail of the terrorists".

Doing all that requires a lot of revenue from Saudi oil and that means a relatively high price.

Stuff by an energy industry banker on Cheney's Energy Task Force and an advisor to President Bush: http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches

Presentation by a petroleum geologist with 40 years' experience: http://energycrisis.org/de/lecture.html (Search for his name to see tons of stuff)

Index of various experts: http://www.hubbertpeak.com/experts/

And, well, you get the idea. Not your average conspiracy nuts, many of them have worked for the world's biggest oil companies for decades.

Fact: If you do not drill for a new source of oil, you will not get anymore oil.

Fact: Most oil fields already drilled are on the down slope of production or will be in the next 10 years.

Fact: US oil production is on a downslope because the US will not allow the drilling of new oil finds.

Fact: The US has become more dependant on foreign oil because we will not allow oil companies to drill new oil finds.
True.
True.
False.
False.

Thanks for the credit but it's not my propulsion system. Fuel cell technology and electric drive trains have advanced to the point to be a viable option for our future needs. Billions of dollars are spent just convincing us that the fossil fuel industry is our friend and our hope for the future and the car manufacturers are producing the best, newest thing and we should buy it and convincing our politicians that the oil industry knows whats best for us and that truck sized passenger vehicles are entitled to pollute as much as trucks (which they convinced us are entitled to pollute more than cars because we need trucks to keep america working or something like that). If we could somehow divert those funds into R+D on alternate propulsion systems to the internal combustion engine and an infastructure to support them, you could probably buy a fuel cell vehicle at your local Ford dealer by midsummer.

+++++++++++++

Ahhh. The old "Oil Company Conspiracy THEORY". If there is money to be made then someone will do it. If YOU think it is possible - then why don't you use up some shoe leather and make it possible? Maybe because it is easier to bitch than to do.

Fuel cells are still to fragile for automobiles, but not for long. How does one make hydrogen without fossil fuels? Photocells are not yet cost effective, but not for long. Please not windmills! What theory? It's fact and common sense that they will try to perpetuate the system that is making them rich.

A little money for development will turn those "not for long" problems into "not anymore". And whats wrong with windmills? True, they're not the magic cure but they are highly effective in appropriate areas.

And I don't just bitch about it. I am an avid and vocal advocate of the noblest invention and most efficient method of human transportation, the bicycle. It is my prefered and regular method of commuting and I actually spend more time in the saddle than I do behind the wheel. I would just prefer that the rest of you find a method of hauling your lazy butts around that polluted my planet less, thank you.

I say we drill Alaska all the way.....people are worried about the poor caribou.....i say we feed them to the homeless...

its one of the last pristine wilderlands in the country.

it's sad...

they've begun measuring SUVs' fuel mileage in gallons per mile.

of course, no one in Europe is complaining because everyone has a tiny coupe with about a 5 gallon tank, so it's only costing about, what, 25 euros a fillup?

i think the SUVs should have additional tanks in the cargo room behind 2nd row seats... who has 8 people to carry around all the time anyway? at least this way the tank would last it until the next fueling station.

1. Thats a joke from the 70's

2. No one has to drive anywhere, most europeans live in cities and drive little cars. Everything is measured in liters there

3. Most people have SUV's because they need to carry things in there. Like the emergency roadside supplies, or sports equipment. My dad and step mom regularly carry 5 people around in their SUV's, an Explorer, or an MDX. I dont see why everyones solution is small cars because for anyone with kids it doesnt physically work.

Why does California have a shortage of electricity - because they wouldn't allow power plants to be built. Why will we run out of oil in the USA - because we will not allow oil companies to drill for oil.

:idea: Let's drill for oil in Alaska and offshore.

1. It was because of the high tech boom in silicon valley, the computers and servers all require power, as do air conditioners to cool them.

2. There is not enough oil in the ANWR to bother drilling there. If there was oil offshore than it would be drilled right now.

Why does California have a shortage of electricity - because they wouldn't allow power plants to be built. Why will we run out of oil in the USA - because we will not allow oil companies to drill for oil.

:idea: Let's drill for oil in Alaska and offshore.

1. It was because of the high tech boom in silicon valley, the computers and servers all require power, as do air conditioners to cool them.

2. There is not enough oil in the ANWR to bother drilling there. If there was oil offshore than it would be drilled right now.

it's sad...

they've begun measuring SUVs' fuel mileage in gallons per mile.

of course, no one in Europe is complaining because everyone has a tiny coupe with about a 5 gallon tank, so it's only costing about, what, 25 euros a fillup?

i think the SUVs should have additional tanks in the cargo room behind 2nd row seats... who has 8 people to carry around all the time anyway? at least this way the tank would last it until the next fueling station.

1. Thats a joke from the 70's

2. No one has to drive anywhere, most europeans live in cities and drive little cars. Everything is measured in liters there

3. Most people have SUV's because they need to carry things in there. Like the emergency roadside supplies, or sports equipment. My dad and step mom regularly carry 5 people around in their SUV's, an Explorer, or an MDX. I dont see why everyones solution is small cars because for anyone with kids it doesnt physically work.

Why does California have a shortage of electricity - because they wouldn't allow power plants to be built. Why will we run out of oil in the USA - because we will not allow oil companies to drill for oil.

:idea: Let's drill for oil in Alaska and offshore.

1. It was because of the high tech boom in silicon valley, the computers and servers all require power, as do air conditioners to cool them.

2. There is not enough oil in the ANWR to bother drilling there. If there was oil offshore than it would be drilled right now.

$100 a barrel for oil is being quoted by leading economists as something to be expected in the next year or so ... if America can't get over its love of gas-guzzling and the Chinese economy goes on expanding at such a rate that it will soon overtake the USA ...

If china consumed gas at the rate the US does, than the entire known reserves of the world would be depleted in 5 years.

Just an interesting fact I read in the economist.

++++++++++++++++

I would accept your opinion if you had wrote most instead of no-one, because almost all statements like yours are false.

Fact: If you do not drill for a new source of oil, you will not get anymore oil.

Fact: Most oil fields already drilled are on the down slope of production or will be in the next 10 years.

Fact: US oil production is on a downslope because the US will not allow the drilling of new oil finds.

Fact: The US has become more dependant on foreign oil because we will not allow oil companies to drill new oil finds.

true


true


false the only oil left is too expensive to drill at the current prices

No, we used it all. There is not an infinite supply.

Stuff by an energy industry banker on Cheney's Energy Task Force and an advisor to President Bush: http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches

Presentation by a petroleum geologist with 40 years' experience: http://energycrisis.org/de/lecture.html (Search for his name to see tons of stuff)

Index of various experts: http://www.hubbertpeak.com/experts/

And, well, you get the idea. Not your average conspiracy nuts, many of them have worked for the world's biggest oil companies for decades.
I'm beginning to have my doubts about this. I read a National Geographic Article concerning the peak of oil production, but also other issues about oil. In fact, I don't know if they printed it in their UK edition, but I'd think you'd enjoy this article.
Anyhow, it said two things that I see you fail to consider. A.) Oil will not literally run out in a few decades, but rather, get a little expensive, and B.) new sources are being found.
They started off talking about the Gulf of Mexico. The oil drilled there hasn't peaked yet, like other oil fields. Rather, it'll soon supply nearly half of the US's oil production figures before their peak in 2008. While it may not be a big find in the grand scheme of things, it does prove a point: there is still oil to be found.
There was another source that oil companies are looking in to, and as you know, it's tar sands. The energy investment required isn't as bad as it once was, as less energy is now needed to extract and refine the oil than it actually provides, and that figure may improve once Alberta builds their nuclear power plant they want to supply steam to these mines.
The production costs are also relatively cheap at $10/barrel, about the cost it takes to extract a barrel of oil in the US. As energy companies invest more into these oil fields, however, that price may also come down.
The reason, according to some energy analysts they interviewed, that more oil hasn't been found is because oil companies and OPEC members aren't interested in finding any more. They fear a price collapse. When the last price shock happened back in the seventies, oil was being tapped in Norway and Mexico. Prices dropped further after the Cold War because of Russia flooding the market. In the past few years, as prices have inched higher, oil companies have explored farther and farther from shore in the Gulf of Mexico. Today, the biggest finds in the US in thirty years are being made.
Now, much oil isn't being found simply because no one is looking. The only reason the revision of Canadian reserves hasn't lowered prices is because it's uneconomical, though not energy defficient, to extract. It'll probably remain that way for a few years, which is why I applaud the Canadian government for the nuclear power plant proposal. That'll lower production prices a lot.
I also think that it isn't outside the realm of possibility, therefore, that OPEC nations have reserves they're affraid to declare. Esspecially those near the Gulf, who have no incentive to look for new reserves, anyhow.

If china consumed gas at the rate the US does, than the entire known reserves of the world would be depleted in 5 years.

Just an interesting fact I read in the economist.


++++++++++++++++++

Not true - we can't pump the oil out that fast.

If china consumed gas at the rate the US does, than the entire known reserves of the world would be depleted in 5 years.

Just an interesting fact I read in the economist.


++++++++++++++++++

Not true - we can't pump the oil out that fast.
Sounds like the US Geological Survey's report in 1919. It predicted that the world would see an end to oil within nine years.

Fact: If you do not drill for a new source of oil, you will not get anymore oil.

Fact: Most oil fields already drilled are on the down slope of production or will be in the next 10 years.

Fact: US oil production is on a downslope because the US will not allow the drilling of new oil finds.

Fact: The US has become more dependant on foreign oil because we will not allow oil companies to drill new oil finds.
True.
True.
False.
False.

Been having trouble posting lately - the site disappears.

Anyway- why false?

Anyway- why false?
US domestic oil production is falling in accordance with well-established production constraints at the reservoir itself. With the exception of a few small patches, everything that is worth drilling, has been drilled. The decline drivers are not drilling bans but geology and fluid mechanics. If all the drilling bans got repealled, most of those places would never see a drill bit, because the geology is wrong. Virtually all oil the US had has been found, and is being exploited as we speak. The vast majority has been used up.

Similarly, the US's increasing dependence on imports is as a result of out of control demand and falling domestic supply, arising from the fact that most has been used up, and what's left is making a slurping sound so loud, the Saudis can hear it.

In 2010, the US will be using at least as much oil as it is using today, it will be importing a higher proportion of it than it does today, at least two thirds, and its domestic production will be well down, to the extent that it will be falling out of the top 10 world producers.

A little money for development will turn those "not for long" problems into "not anymore". And whats wrong with windmills? True, they're not the magic cure but they are highly effective in appropriate areas.

And I don't just bitch about it. I am an avid and vocal advocate of the noblest invention and most efficient method of human transportation, the bicycle. It is my prefered and regular method of commuting and I actually spend more time in the saddle than I do behind the wheel. I would just prefer that the rest of you find a method of hauling your lazy butts around that polluted my planet less, thank you.

++++++++++++++++=
Billions of dollars spent in research. The government has slated another billion to research. Patience is required unless you know the secret to fixing all the problems. Fuel Cells and Photo Electric Cells are the keys. When they become cost effective then OPEC had better start getting worried.

So know it is YOUR planet. I am not going to bicycle 22 miles to my work place. If you can find me a job closer to my home that pays the same- please do. Get me an electric car with PECs and I will use it.

++++++++++++++++

I would accept your opinion if you had wrote most instead of no-one, because almost all statements like yours are false.

Fact: If you do not drill for a new source of oil, you will not get anymore oil.

Fact: Most oil fields already drilled are on the down slope of production or will be in the next 10 years.

Fact: US oil production is on a downslope because the US will not allow the drilling of new oil finds.

Fact: The US has become more dependant on foreign oil because we will not allow oil companies to drill new oil finds.

true


true


false the only oil left is too expensive to drill at the current prices

No, we used it all. There is not an infinite supply.

++++++++++++++

Then why do they want to drill in ANWR and multiple offshore sites.

Never wrote that there is an infinite supply - the question is how much drillable oil is there left, since it is a moving target... upwards.

Anyway- why false?
US domestic oil production is falling in accordance with well-established production constraints at the reservoir itself. With the exception of a few small patches, everything that is worth drilling, has been drilled. The decline drivers are not drilling bans but geology and fluid mechanics. If all the drilling bans got repealled, most of those places would never see a drill bit, because the geology is wrong. Virtually all oil the US had has been found, and is being exploited as we speak. The vast majority has been used up.

Similarly, the US's increasing dependence on imports is as a result of out of control demand and falling domestic supply, arising from the fact that most has been used up, and what's left is making a slurping sound so loud, the Saudis can hear it.

In 2010, the US will be using at least as much oil as it is using today, it will be importing a higher proportion of it than it does today, at least two thirds, and its domestic production will be well down, to the extent that it will be falling out of the top 10 world producers.

+++++++++++++++++++

Like I said if you do not drill for NEW oil then production will fall off. Which does NOT make my statement false but true. If the geology is all wrong, then why do they want to drill? I guess oil companies like to throw money away in drilling equipment and labor.

US demand is not out of control. Gas is cheap - even at 2 dollars. When demand goes past supply, the price of gas will go up and people will use less of it. If someone wants to buy a vehicle that gets 15 MPG then let them. When gas prices get to high for them, let them cry in their beer, while I drive around in my new ELECTRIC VEHICLE.

The "experts" pop out of the woodwork everytime oil prices go up, warning us that we will be out of oil within the next 10 years. They have been wrong everytime for the past 80+ years. They are wrong again.

I won't buy a car just to deter gasoline prices. If I buy a car, I'm going to buy it based on what I like and what's not efficient. It may not be the cheapest thing to do, but in the long run, gas prices will go down a lot sooner before I find a non-gas guzzler to purchase.

A little money for development will turn those "not for long" problems into "not anymore". And whats wrong with windmills? True, they're not the magic cure but they are highly effective in appropriate areas.

And I don't just bitch about it. I am an avid and vocal advocate of the noblest invention and most efficient method of human transportation, the bicycle. It is my prefered and regular method of commuting and I actually spend more time in the saddle than I do behind the wheel. I would just prefer that the rest of you find a method of hauling your lazy butts around that polluted my planet less, thank you.

++++++++++++++++=
Billions of dollars spent in research. The government has slated another billion to research. Patience is required unless you know the secret to fixing all the problems. Fuel Cells and Photo Electric Cells are the keys. When they become cost effective then OPEC had better start getting worried.

So know it is YOUR planet. I am not going to bicycle 22 miles to my work place. If you can find me a job closer to my home that pays the same- please do. Get me an electric car with PECs and I will use it.Yeah, it is my planet, I just happpen to share it with 6 billion others, But that doesn't lessen my devotion to it's protection and health. Your's is the excuse of countless others, and it translates to basically your too lazy. Well most public transportation now accomidates bicycles so lard-asses like you don't actually have to ride the bulk of your commute. Bottom line is you can't be bothered, right? You just aren't that concerned with the health of our planet to actually do anything that is inconvienient. Patience isn't what's required, it's motivation. Get off your butt and actaully do something about the problem, even if it's just not personally contributing to the problem, because if your not part of the problem, you just might be part of the solution.

Praise be to the gods for the New York Mass Transit System!

I won't buy a car just to deter gasoline prices. If I buy a car, I'm going to buy it based on what I like and what's not efficient. It may not be the cheapest thing to do, but in the long run, gas prices will go down a lot sooner before I find a non-gas guzzler to purchase.Sorry, but you won't be seeing gas prices going down again. They're only going up from here on out.

I agree. A lot of flippant comments are made by people working from a superficial understanding of the history, who have no real understanding of the energy industry. It is a lot more complicated than people think, and there is a lot less room for optimism, too.

Nah, I'm all for fueling cars with good ole West Virginia Coal! C'mon people, help my fellow statespeople out!
no! let them rot. It's a beautiful place- stop tearing it up!! That's the only thing WV has going for it...I hate you (well, not you personally, just the state) but sorry, I'm letting my personal life get in the way.
My car gets pretty good gas mileage, but I live in the south, and thus I am not used to spending $30 to fill up my little car. We do severely need to figure out a better plan. Personally, I think we need more competition. As of now, American car companies don't have all that much incentive to try something new because foreign hybrids are so expensive. If the hybrids were more accessable, then the car companies would have to come up with something revolutionary to keep their business.
(errr...sorry if my facts aren't straight...it's late at night, and I didn't read all the posts on this thread, and I have been brainwashed)

Hybrids may seem more expensive if you're not in a position to buy a new car. I'm not, so they're currently out of reach for me as well, since they haven't been around long enough to drop sufficiently in the used car market.

But if you can afford a new car, they're moderately priced--both the Prius and the Civic hybrids start in the $21K range, and they're your average small sedan, seating 4 comfortably, five if you like each other. And if you're really able to spend some money, Ford is supposed to offer a hybrid SUV this year on the Escape platform.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

I already purchased and ride a motorcycle. How is that for economy ? Two weeks of driving for under $7.00 US.

Here's a question for Americans.

How high, and for how long, would gasoline prices have to go, for you to switch to a smaller and more fuel efficient car?

For example, 12 months at what price level?

I'm just interested in seeing what people think.

I already purchased and ride a motorcycle. How is that for economy ? Two weeks of driving for under $7.00 US.That's pretty damn good. Not practical for everyone, but good in your case.

I don't have a car, so I don't pay for gas. I spend $45 a month on a fast pass that lets me use the public transportation throughout the city as much as I want. How's that for economy? Not as good as you, I imagine, but better than most drivers, I wager, especially when you factor in insurance, upkeep and the like.

I agree. A lot of flippant comments are made by people working from a superficial understanding of the history, who have no real understanding of the energy industry. It is a lot more complicated than people think, and there is a lot less room for optimism, too.
The one thing the energy industry will never run out of, however, is options. There's a lot of potential to find an energy source other than oil. And if we devoted enough energy to finding such a solution, we'll find it in a few years, maybe less.

I agree. A lot of flippant comments are made by people working from a superficial understanding of the history, who have no real understanding of the energy industry. It is a lot more complicated than people think, and there is a lot less room for optimism, too.

+++++++++++++++

Flippant remarks seem to be made by people who hear or read the lies, half truths, and gossip instead getting to the facts. A lot of people think that if you throw more money at a problem the solution will come faster. It didn't work for the public school system and it will not work for our energy needs. Research takes time to reach critical mass - even in this age of almost instant information. Ideas have to swim around in the brain cage bumping into other ideas.

Personally, I think our great-great grandchildren will think it odd that we burned fossil fuel to get around and heat and cool our homes.

I can see my electric vehicle peeking over the horizon - a pretty shiny green one. Is that red one next to it yours? :wink:

I believe that reducing oil dependency is essential for the long-term prospects of humanity, sadly the market has not done a very good job of stimulating research in this area. Government intervention would speed things up a bit, but it seems that energy policy is something no government can agree on. If we are to have that bright happy shining future, there had better be consensus. Right now, many governments are still at the stage of denial and procrastination.

The US government is trying to get off the oil tit. It has spent billions of dollars for research and tax credits on alternate energy sources. Like a lot of Americans, you want it now. As the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water...".

How much would our energy use go down if we got rid if 12 million plus illegal immigrants?

We need practical solutions, not foot stomping and whining. What is your practical solution to the problem? No, it is not cars that get higher gas mileage - we already did that and people just drove more and used the same amount of gas. :?

The US government is trying to get off the oil tit. It has spent billions of dollars for research and tax credits on alternate energy sources. Like a lot of Americans, you want it now. As the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water...".

How much would our energy use go down if we got rid if 12 million plus illegal immigrants?

We need practical solutions, not foot stomping and whining. What is your practical solution to the problem? No, it is not cars that get higher gas mileage - we already did that and people just drove more and used the same amount of gas. :?Boy, you're ignorant. How many billions has the US government spent on alternative energy sources compared to the giveaways they've provided for traditional energy companies? Traditional energy, especially during the present administration, has received thousands times more in the form of tax cuts and other incentives.

As far as your idiotic comment about higher gas mileage is concerned, while it is true that CAFE standards were raised in the late 70s, the increases that were scheduled to continue were basically phased out, and car manufacturers drove the SUV through a giant loophole in the law, a loophole Congress has never seen fit--aided by lots of money from car manufacturers--to close.

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. :roll:

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. Shut up. Let's assume for a moment that the people being discussed here aren't in the US but are rather in Mexico--do they not drive cars in Mexico? The gas is still being used, is it not? So what exactly has changed?

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. Shut up. Let's assume for a moment that the people being discussed here aren't in the US but are rather in Mexico--do they not drive cars in Mexico? The gas is still being used, is it not? So what exactly has changed?

mexicans ride donkeys, and eat tacos and drink bad water

Oil prices tend to climb until somebody with a lot of political power says that maybe we should research alternate energy and do some oil exploration, and then by some "miracle" oil prices fall...

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. Shut up. Let's assume for a moment that the people being discussed here aren't in the US but are rather in Mexico--do they not drive cars in Mexico? The gas is still being used, is it not? So what exactly has changed?

that they're in America

hybrids have a wussy, liberal connotation to them, so they'd prolly hafta go a buck or two higher for me to switch, but i dont drive that often lving in the city.

Fuel economy is still pitiful. The US auto fleet gets 20mpg. That's ridiculous. There should be a crunch point where the government says, if a new vehicle in a particular category can't meet a certain fuel economy standard, it doesn't get sold - back to the drawing board. Also the price that people pay: $2 is nothing, stick on a dollar of tax, and spend that on R&D and new energy infrastructure. The price of gasoline should be such that people cannot drive as far as they can today. This will be an incentive to reorganise urban planning, which has been a cock-up of immense proportions from the beginning. If people have to go across town to get a newspaper and cereal, that needs correcting, and you cannot change the configuration of cities without a serious incentive. The goal should be higher efficiency, I'm talking double, and massive demand destruction.

Regarding economic impacts, in the short to medium term, an economic hit from this is unavoidable. There is probably no magic way of reorganising the energy system of almost a whole continent in less than two decades. I am not in favour of foot stomping, I am in favour of the government taking proper command of the energy situation. Not market signals, but effectively setting boundaries and issuing orders. There are precedents: the Manhattan Project, the Apollo project, Stalin's 5-year plans, I am talking about that level of state intervention, however fantastical or distasteful as it may seem. Because left to their own devices, all people will do is carry on saying "If only..." and get nothing done.

The gas prices have not been so bad as to compel me to stop driving my old Jeep Cherokee. The prices will in all likelyhood go down eventually, and I'm better off driving my SUV than a small politically-correct rolling coffin mousemobile. Besides, I need that thing to haul large loads around anyways. To answer your question, any hike in prices that would cause me to switch from my SUV to car would be an increase of such magnitude that I could not afford to drive cars, either.

You know TG, I'd just be happy if they closed the damn SUV loophole and forced automakers to figure their SUVs in with the rest of their fleet when they're building them. But what are the chances of that happening? As my Daddy used to say, slim and none and slim just left town.

Automakers spend billions on lobbyists each year just to ensure that doesn't happen. About the only thing that will force automakers to build more fuel efficient vehicles is exactly what's happening right now--high-ass gas prices. SUVs are rotting on the lots right now because nobody's buying them. And you know something? I'm glad.

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. Shut up. Let's assume for a moment that the people being discussed here aren't in the US but are rather in Mexico--do they not drive cars in Mexico? The gas is still being used, is it not? So what exactly has changed?

++++++++++++++

The price of gas goes down due to more supply and less demand. I'll try and keep it simple for you.

Step 1: Get oil.
Step 2: Refine oil to gas, diesel, jet fuel ...
Step 3: Sell refined product.

12 million less people means less refined products being used in US. That means the US refineries can keep up with demand without building more refineries(if enviromentalist will even let a refinery be built or upgraded), less capital investment required - that makes refined products cheaper to sell. Why do think the electric companies are on the conservation bandwagaon? Answer: Less capital investment with the same return.

Go take an economics class.

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Billions of dollars spent in research. The government has slated another billion to research.

Another Billion is not enough, bush put 1 Billion towards it over a few years, meaning that because of inflation millions of dollars will be lost. The government should be spending the money on research and then selling it to the corporations to recoup the cost, the corporations shouldnt be doing the work.

I agree. A lot of flippant comments are made by people working from a superficial understanding of the history, who have no real understanding of the energy industry. It is a lot more complicated than people think, and there is a lot less room for optimism, too.

Exactly.

+++++++++++++++
A lot of people think that if you throw more money at a problem the solution will come faster. It didn't work for the public school system and it will not work for our energy needs. Research takes time to reach critical mass - even in this age of almost instant information. Ideas have to swim around in the brain cage bumping into other ideas.

It does take time for solutions to come about, but the solutions for this are largely monetary, more money means more experiments, and higher technology, maybe we should build cars with carbon, but at the moment it is too expensive to build a car out of kevlar or a carbon polymer.

The US government is trying to get off the oil tit. It has spent billions of dollars for research and tax credits on alternate energy sources. Like a lot of Americans, you want it now. As the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water...".

How much would our energy use go down if we got rid if 12 million plus illegal immigrants?


Tax credits are like corporate tax loopholes, only the big guys benefit, but they would be researching the stuff anyways because they know oil is going to run out.

I dont think illeagal immigrants have anything to do with this.

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The price of gas goes down due to more supply and less demand. I'll try and keep it simple for you.

Step 1: Get oil.
Step 2: Refine oil to gas, diesel, jet fuel ...
Step 3: Sell refined product.

12 million less people means less refined products being used in US. That means the US refineries can keep up with demand without building more refineries(if enviromentalist will even let a refinery be built or upgraded), less capital investment required - that makes refined products cheaper to sell. Why do think the electric companies are on the conservation bandwagaon? Answer: Less capital investment with the same return.

Go take an economics class.

Yeah, but most immigrants dont drive, seeing as they live in cities, or make practically nothing, they cant even afford a car making $4 an hour.

So, to get oil prices we would have to have zero/negative population growth? There has not been a need for more refineries or power plants since the last big expansion, that was in the 1970s and then we started to conserve.

That restructuring of infrastructure that TG was talking about just wouldn't work in the US. Much in the same way that public transportation is impractical here and for the same reasons, trying to move buildings closer to people is simply not practical.

Adding $1 tax to the price of gas? Yikes! Fuel prices are already an economic burden on, I think it was, 4 of 5 Americans in a recent poll. In an economy that isn't in the best of shape adding a dollar to the price of gas would be a disaster. Americans don't drive because we like, but some like myself do, we drive because we have to.

the ideas of others on the forum may have been overly simple, but yours could use work as well.

I rejoice over high fuel costs. It has many benefits:

1) Fewer nimrods on the road.

2) Alternative fuels become more competitive and therfore attractive.

3) Less cars=less emissions

4) Less travel = better local economies

#2 is my favorite. I really hope they don't mandate more efficient petrol mpg. So long as petrol tech is continually refined other fuels, which are not nearly as widely used and therefore have much smaller R+D budgets, will have higher and higher hurdles to cross for efficiency.

If todays electric powered cars were compared to autos from the 1950s they would be competitive. So long as the bar keeps getting raised there will never be enough demand, and therefore r+d, to make other fuels competitive.

++++++++++++++

The price of gas goes down due to more supply and less demand. I'll try and keep it simple for you.

Step 1: Get oil.
Step 2: Refine oil to gas, diesel, jet fuel ...
Step 3: Sell refined product.

12 million less people means less refined products being used in US. That means the US refineries can keep up with demand without building more refineries(if enviromentalist will even let a refinery be built or upgraded), less capital investment required - that makes refined products cheaper to sell. Why do think the electric companies are on the conservation bandwagaon? Answer: Less capital investment with the same return.

Go take an economics class.

Yeah, but most immigrants dont drive, seeing as they live in cities, or make practically nothing, they cant even afford a car making $4 an hour.

So, to get oil prices we would have to have zero/negative population growth? There has not been a need for more refineries or power plants since the last big expansion, that was in the 1970s and then we started to conserve.

+++++++++++++

Most ILLEGAL immigrants do not live in the city, and they do drive, though a lot do carpool.

You had better do your homework - there has and is a need for refineries and power plants lately. Have you seen a 40% increase in other oil based products like plastic cups, plates, toasters?

prices in America really aren't that high...the garage down the road from me is charging nearly £1 a litre, which is roughly £4 a gallon, which I think is somewhere around $6 a gallon...

prices in America really aren't that high...the garage down the road from me is charging nearly £1 a litre, which is roughly £4 a gallon, which I think is somewhere around $6 a gallon...

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How much of that is due to taxes/fees?

In Canada it is 51%.

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. Shut up. Let's assume for a moment that the people being discussed here aren't in the US but are rather in Mexico--do they not drive cars in Mexico? The gas is still being used, is it not? So what exactly has changed?

++++++++++++++

The price of gas goes down due to more supply and less demand. I'll try and keep it simple for you.

Step 1: Get oil.
Step 2: Refine oil to gas, diesel, jet fuel ...
Step 3: Sell refined product.

12 million less people means less refined products being used in US. That means the US refineries can keep up with demand without building more refineries(if enviromentalist will even let a refinery be built or upgraded), less capital investment required - that makes refined products cheaper to sell. Why do think the electric companies are on the conservation bandwagaon? Answer: Less capital investment with the same return.

Go take an economics class.Listen, moron--you didn't answer my question. Get rid of those 12 million people and the jobs they do will still have to be done, and that takes up the majority of the fuel they use, either in the course of their work or in their travel to and from work. The demand will still be there--the only difference will be in who is supplying the human labor force. So tell me again why getting rid of illegal immigrants will make one iota of difference in the amount of fuel usage in the US?

prices in America really aren't that high...the garage down the road from me is charging nearly £1 a litre, which is roughly £4 a gallon, which I think is somewhere around $6 a gallon...

++++++++++

How much of that is due to taxes/fees?

In Canada it is 51%.


80% i think over here

And what the hell does immigration have to do with any of this? Not a goddamn thing.

your right. Mexicans don't use electricity or cars. In fact, all they do is fall on the floor with big hats. Shut up. Let's assume for a moment that the people being discussed here aren't in the US but are rather in Mexico--do they not drive cars in Mexico? The gas is still being used, is it not? So what exactly has changed?

++++++++++++++

The price of gas goes down due to more supply and less demand. I'll try and keep it simple for you.

Step 1: Get oil.
Step 2: Refine oil to gas, diesel, jet fuel ...
Step 3: Sell refined product.

12 million less people means less refined products being used in US. That means the US refineries can keep up with demand without building more refineries(if enviromentalist will even let a refinery be built or upgraded), less capital investment required - that makes refined products cheaper to sell. Why do think the electric companies are on the conservation bandwagaon? Answer: Less capital investment with the same return.

Go take an economics class.Listen, moron--you didn't answer my question. Get rid of those 12 million people and the jobs they do will still have to be done, and that takes up the majority of the fuel they use, either in the course of their work or in their travel to and from work. The demand will still be there--the only difference will be in who is supplying the human labor force. So tell me again why getting rid of illegal immigrants will make one iota of difference in the amount of fuel usage in the US?

++++++++++++

Sorry I thought it was a rhetorical question, since I am a moron compared to you and I thought you could do the simple computations.

These are rounded numbers being used.

Step 1:

10 million barrels of oil used a day divided by 290 million people in USA equals 0.0345 barrels per person.

Step 2:

147 million in labor force times 5.6 percent of unemployment rate equals 8.3 million people.

Step 3:

12 million illegal immigrants minus 8.3 million unemployed equals 3.7 million people working overtime. ( I thought I would throw this in to show energy could be saved because less people would be going to and from work)

Step 4:

12 million illegal immigrants times 0.0345 barrels per person equals 414 thousand barrels of oil a day saved.


Just because someone is not working, does not mean they are not consuming energy - they do have money from unemployment or welfare.

I'm glad I don't drive a car, but if I did, it would be a small European-type car.

prices in America really aren't that high...the garage down the road from me is charging nearly £1 a litre, which is roughly £4 a gallon, which I think is somewhere around $6 a gallon...

++++++++++

How much of that is due to taxes/fees?

In Canada it is 51%.


80% i think over here

++++++++

We average 38 cents a gallon here in the US (Each State has its own rate). The tax is set per gallon - not a percentage.

I looked up Englands tax rate and it was 50 pence per liter, which is about $2.80 per gallon American. So why are you guys paying $2.80 a gallon before taxes, where we pay $1.70 per gallon before taxes?

Looks like you need to be the one taking the economics class, IT. Or maybe you should just look at what happens to economies that actually approach full employment--which, by the way, is when the unemployment rate approaches 3%.

And yet, you still haven't addressed my main point--which is that reagardless of whether immigrants are legal or illegal, they are people in the US using these resources. Even your ridiculous overtime example makes no sense--people working more hours consume more resources than they do working an average work week.

So again, prove how illegal immigration makes one bit of difference in the amount of resources we currently use a nation or would use if they were either not in the country or not illegal.

Looks like you need to be the one taking the economics class, IT. Or maybe you should just look at what happens to economies that actually approach full employment--which, by the way, is when the unemployment rate approaches 3%.

And yet, you still haven't addressed my main point--which is that reagardless of whether immigrants are legal or illegal, they are people in the US using these resources. Even your ridiculous overtime example makes no sense--people working more hours consume more resources than they do working an average work week.

So again, prove how illegal immigration makes one bit of difference in the amount of resources we currently use a nation or would use if they were either not in the country or not illegal.

He's just a whacked out redneck trying to relate this to his debunked policies of racism and immigration restriction.

I went back and checked my sources - I mixed up the total oil used by the US with internally produced. The US uses 20 million barrels a day not 10. So the oil saved in the US would be 828 thousand barrels a day.

Factory is open 24 hours and uses 12 people to run it - 4 per 8 hour shift. Management of factory cannot get 12 people to work, only 8 people can be found - so they work 4 per 12 hour shift. Less energy used because there are 4 less people going to work at the factory in a 24 hour period.

Below is related to oil, not getting rid of illegal immigrants to save resources.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/042903_media_lies.html

I almost forgot the question after reading through all these pages.

I do not know how much gas prices will rise before I get a more fuel-efficient vehicle. Right now, my Aerostar is getting around 10-12 mpg. I only have to make a five minute trip to school or a friend's house. Lately, it costs about thirty dollars to fill up two hundred miles worth of gas. It's only filled up once or twice a month, though, so I don't mind. So in conclusion, until the end of next year when college starts, I don't plan on replacing my beloved vehicle.

I forgot to enter a space somewhere here. Try to guess where I added it.

Yes we have gotten off the original question a bit.

Personally, the price have gas would have to go to 4-5 bucks before it would be economically in my favor to get a more fuel efficient vehicle.