NationStates Jolt Archive

One thing I know. It's not a conscious choice.
(unless one choses in a previous life)

all other answers = I don't know
and/or I don't care and/or more than one of the above
and/or none of the above etc. etc.

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Natural/Birth
Lisp: Some natural, some choice
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: Mostly Choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice.

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Natural/Birth
Lisp: Some natural, some choice
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: Mostly Choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice.

I agree, but I basically am referring to the first of your definitions and therefore I said 'nature'.

Oh, and as for the God aspect... that only matters if in fact you are a believer of God... God gives everyone problems to deal with, whether it is temptation by satan or temptation by nature. Homosexuals have no reason to get off easy with reworkings of the bible that justify their sins.... People who have tendancies to cheat on tests, cheat on wives, lie, steal, kill, abuse, fornicate, rape, masturbate, get drunk, or yell at their parents... they don't get off easy, why should Gays?

Anyway, that's just my little religious rant :)

Gay as in jovial?

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Natural/Birth
Lisp: Some natural, some choice
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: Mostly Choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice.

I agree, but I basically am referring to the first of your definitions and therefore I said 'nature'.When you say "what makes a person gay", you're asking a bunch of things... someone can be straight and have gay thoughts... someone can be gay because they think it's cool, someone can be straight-minded and have gay sex simply because the environment pushes them into it one way or another....

Do you mean gay thoughts, gay actions, gay personality, or gay physical/vocal features?

i also generally agree with the breakdown, except that I think we can influence our desires through meditation and through mental discipline. Therefore even homosexual desire involves some level of choice, because even if one is born with it one can feel the desire much less by intentionally desiring something else. And when I refer to homosexuality I usually refer to homosexual intercourse, so I go with purely choice.

Oh, and as for the God aspect... that only matters if in fact you are a believer of God... God gives everyone problems to deal with, whether it is temptation by satan or temptation by nature. Homosexuals have no reason to get off easy with reworkings of the bible that justify their sins.... People who have tendancies to cheat on tests, cheat on wives, lie, steal, kill, abuse, fornicate, rape, masturbate, get drunk, or yell at their parents... they don't get off easy, why should Gays?

Anyway, that's just my little religious rant :)

You can be happy in life without cheating, committing adultery, stealing, killing, etc., but you are very unlikely to be happy without love.

Also, all of the above behaviors you named have the potential to harm someone else (except masturbation), while being homosexual does not.

lol @ being gay because they think it's cool.


good one

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Mental Defect/Emotional or sexual abuse as a child/ suggestive media
Lisp: Some natural, some choice (agree entirly)
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: personality nature or choice(I know plenty of big, scary Marines who seem a little gay by nature, but are happily married and are very not-gay) Lifestyle: choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice. (Unless your in prison or the airforce)

Oh, and as for the God aspect... that only matters if in fact you are a believer of God... God gives everyone problems to deal with, whether it is temptation by satan or temptation by nature. Homosexuals have no reason to get off easy with reworkings of the bible that justify their sins.... People who have tendancies to cheat on tests, cheat on wives, lie, steal, kill, abuse, fornicate, rape, masturbate, get drunk, or yell at their parents... they don't get off easy, why should Gays?

Anyway, that's just my little religious rant :)

Fine, then, but neither do Mormons who are clearly in violation of Biblical code.

See how easy it is to send people to hell for completely arbitrary reasons?

i also generally agree with the breakdown, except that I think we can influence our desires through meditation and through mental discipline. Therefore even homosexual desire involves some level of choice, because even if one is born with it one can feel the desire much less by intentionally desiring something else. And when I refer to homosexuality I usually refer to homosexual intercourse, so I go with purely choice.

Funny, I've never been able to intentionally desire a person (as in choose the person I find attractive). I've also never been able to intentionally choose to stop being attracted to a person. Intercourse is always a choice but the desire is not.

i also generally agree with the breakdown, except that I think we can influence our desires through meditation and through mental discipline. Therefore even homosexual desire involves some level of choice, because even if one is born with it one can feel the desire much less by intentionally desiring something else. And when I refer to homosexuality I usually refer to homosexual intercourse, so I go with purely choice.

I disagree with that. Obviously, you've never tried to put that though into practice. Let me ask you something. I'll take for granted that you're straight here. So basically, what you're saying is that you could convince yourself to have sex with another man(or woman, if you're a female) if you tried hard enough? Forgive me, but I'm skeptical about that.

However, if you can, more power to you. Although that probably just means you had bisexual potential to begin with.

I don't believe we can influence the desires we feel. One good example is that so-called "gay therapy" some psychiatrists and church ministers are so fond of. They pretend they can cure your homosexuality, but I've yet to hear of someone who's gone through that therapy and lived happily ever after as a good lil straight boy. All that brainwashing does ( because yes, it's conditionning, no more no less) is get the poor souls even more f*cked up about their sexuality that they were before. Five years later nearly all candidates are back into gay bars, practicing unsafe sex and other self-destructive means of having sex because they're choking with guilt of not having been strong enough to resist that "dirty,dirty sinful pulsion".

So no, I don't believe we can control our desires. And what I wrote above is a first-hand account of what happened to one of my friends. I'd love to have statistics to add to that, too, but unfortunately for yall I'm just too lazy to look it up.

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Natural/Birth
Lisp: Some natural, some choice
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: Mostly Choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice.

I agree, but I basically am referring to the first of your definitions and therefore I said 'nature'.When you say "what makes a person gay", you're asking a bunch of things... someone can be straight and have gay thoughts... someone can be gay because they think it's cool, someone can be straight-minded and have gay sex simply because the environment pushes them into it one way or another....

Do you mean gay thoughts, gay actions, gay personality, or gay physical/vocal features?

I mean simply 'having a homosexual orientation'. I see being gay as the orientation of the mind and/or body and nothing to do with behaviour per se, except that people's behaviour generally follows their orientation. In other words at a certain age most people will act on their orientation. Although this may or may not apply to bisexuals who decide to chose one over the other.

lol @ being gay because they think it's cool.


good oneIn the past, many practiced homosexuality because it was easier than the commitments involved in heterosexuality... many still do that because of that today.

lol @ being gay because they think it's cool.


good oneIn the past, many practiced homosexuality because it was easier than the commitments involved in heterosexuality... many still do that because of that today.

Er, so the whole gay marriage thing is just a red herring?

God gives everyone problems to deal with..

Well, I think the most important thing to remember is that some things are between a person and their God. In other words, it is not our 'right' to judge another's behaviour unless that behaviour effects us.

In other words:

Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's
eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

Luke 6:41 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's
eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Natural/Birth
Lisp: Some natural, some choice
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: Mostly Choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice.

I agree, but I basically am referring to the first of your definitions and therefore I said 'nature'.When you say "what makes a person gay", you're asking a bunch of things... someone can be straight and have gay thoughts... someone can be gay because they think it's cool, someone can be straight-minded and have gay sex simply because the environment pushes them into it one way or another....

Do you mean gay thoughts, gay actions, gay personality, or gay physical/vocal features?

I mean simply 'having a homosexual orientation'. I see being gay as the orientation of the mind and/or body and nothing to do with behaviour per se, except that people's behaviour generally follows their orientation. In other words at a certain age most people will act on their orientation. Although this may or may not apply to bisexuals who decide to chose one over the other.LOL Orientation=Who you're looking at for sex=Sexual PREFERENCE=Choice. Having gay thoughts/desires are natural for some... Choosing to give into them/act on them is your choice... pure and simple.

God gives everyone problems to deal with..

Well, I think the most important thing to remember is that some things are between a person and their God. In other words, it is not our 'right' to judge another's behaviour unless that behaviour effects us.

In other words:

Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's
eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

Luke 6:41 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's
eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?I don't recall judging anyone... merely expressing my belief that those who are actually striving to return to heaven have just as many problems as anyone else... I couldn't care less about what non-christians do...

LOL Orientation=Who you're looking at for sex=Sexual PREFERENCE=Choice. Having gay thoughts/desires are natural for some... Choosing to give into them/act on them is your choice... pure and simple.

The problem with this argument is the framing of the question. You frame it as giving into sin whereas others with just as much reason frame it as being honest.

It´s no choice, the only choice is to accept it.

As we are made by God, it´s God himself who makes some of us gay. That´s a fine thing.

Deleted: (see following post)

God gives everyone problems to deal with..

Well, I think the most important thing to remember is that some things are between a person and their God. In other words, it is not our 'right' to judge another's behaviour unless that behaviour effects us.

In other words:

Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's
eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

Luke 6:41 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's
eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?I don't recall judging anyone... merely expressing my belief that those who are actually striving to return to heaven have just as many problems as anyone else... I couldn't care less about what non-christians do...

I wasn't referring to you.

But I would define 'christian' differently than some people do.

That was me.. forgot how I was logged in...

It´s no choice, the only choice is to accept it.

As we are made by God, it´s God himself who makes some of us gay. That´s a fine thing.God makes some of us short-tempered, horny, violent, alcoholic, and/or addicted to smoking/crack at birth... does that mean we should accept that as well?

HEy guess what i am supposed to die today

It´s no choice, the only choice is to accept it.

As we are made by God, it´s God himself who makes some of us gay. That´s a fine thing.God makes some of us short-tempered, horny, violent, alcoholic, and/or addicted to smoking/crack at birth... does that mean we should accept that as well?

Sounds like a hateful God them.

Kind of hard to belive that he soooo bored that he screws with people.

Maybe things happen just without a master plan.

Oh, and as for the God aspect... that only matters if in fact you are a believer of God... God gives everyone problems to deal with, whether it is temptation by satan or temptation by nature. Homosexuals have no reason to get off easy with reworkings of the bible that justify their sins....


*sigh*

You were doing so well up until that last sentence. I'm not reworking the bible to justify my sins, I'm showing you faults in the bible. As you find fault in me.


People who have tendancies to cheat on tests, cheat on wives, lie, steal, kill, abuse, fornicate, rape, masturbate, get drunk, or yell at their parents... they don't get off easy, why should Gays?


You're still equating being gay with.. uhm.. lying, stealing, and raping!?


Anyway, that's just my little religious rant :)

You really have to spend some more time in #NSG - it'll give me an incentive to finish more than the first two "air" chapters on the Satanic Bible quoter. :?

--
Moonshine
CrystalDragon on Espernet IRC

I'm so glad I don't believe in a God like Raysias.

i also generally agree with the breakdown, except that I think we can influence our desires through meditation and through mental discipline. Therefore even homosexual desire involves some level of choice, because even if one is born with it one can feel the desire much less by intentionally desiring something else. And when I refer to homosexuality I usually refer to homosexual intercourse, so I go with purely choice.



I disagree with that. Obviously, you've never tried to put that though into practice. Let me ask you something. I'll take for granted that you're straight here. So basically, what you're saying is that you could convince yourself to have sex with another man(or woman, if you're a female) if you tried hard enough? Forgive me, but I'm skeptical about that.

However, if you can, more power to you. Although that probably just means you had bisexual potential to begin with.

I don't believe we can influence the desires we feel. One good example is that so-called "gay therapy" some psychiatrists and church ministers are so fond of. They pretend they can cure your homosexuality, but I've yet to hear of someone who's gone through that therapy and lived happily ever after as a good lil straight boy. All that brainwashing does ( because yes, it's conditionning, no more no less) is get the poor souls even more f*cked up about their sexuality that they were before. Five years later nearly all candidates are back into gay bars, practicing unsafe sex and other self-destructive means of having sex because they're choking with guilt of not having been strong enough to resist that "dirty,dirty sinful pulsion".

So no, I don't believe we can control our desires. And what I wrote above is a first-hand account of what happened to one of my friends. I'd love to have statistics to add to that, too, but unfortunately for yall I'm just too lazy to look it up.

To be unable to control your desires is not a matter of nature or enviroment, but discipline. If your weak minded and giving into your desires was uncontrollable, then every act of a child molester and rapist would be labled as " their natural sexuality." To say you are unable to control yourself in such matters should constitute criminal bias. Not in the sense that you are commiting a crime, but that you are a threat to those around you because of your lack of control. I.e. if indeed a homosexual individual had an STD or was suspected of the same, his lack of self-control would endanger others. This is obviously an extreme case, but imagine if a person were to be so unable to control himself that he would "hit on someone" in the wrong enviroment, like at work. His inappropriate behavior in the workplace would affect him greatly. If a man can live his life without ever giving into the desire to eat meat or to live a life of comfort, then a simple thing like keeping your emotions in check is a should be easy. To lose your temper or to take advantage of others is the same way. To mortify the flesh (or to suffer) is to advance yourself in discipline. The very act both requires discipline and creates discipline.

Homosexual Tendancies/Ideas/Desires: Natural/Birth
Lisp: Some natural, some choice
Homosexual Personality/Lifestyle: Mostly Choice
Homosexual Activity: Purely choice.

That's a really good explanation, I think.

The strongest determinent is the cascade of hormones in the neonatal stage. For some, it takes a different path; we do not know why. The result is different brain chemistry. The people affected have a choice of chastity or active homosexuality but not heterosexuality.

I think that maybe everybody is bisexual, but due to socialisation people put up all these walls... but once you get past that you realise that there is no reason why you can't have a relationship with anybody you like, irrespective of gender.

people are too obsessed with pigeon-holing and catergorising people- why can't we all just do what makes us happy?

To be unable to control your desires is not a matter of nature or enviroment, but discipline. If your weak minded and giving into your desires was uncontrollable, then every act of a child molester and rapist would be labled as " their natural sexuality." To say you are unable to control yourself in such matters should constitute criminal bias. Not in the sense that you are commiting a crime, but that you are a threat to those around you because of your lack of control. I.e. if indeed a homosexual individual had an STD or was suspected of the same, his lack of self-control would endanger others. This is obviously an extreme case, but imagine if a person were to be so unable to control himself that he would "hit on someone" in the wrong enviroment, like at work. His inappropriate behavior in the workplace would affect him greatly. If a man can live his life without ever giving into the desire to eat meat or to live a life of comfort, then a simple thing like keeping your emotions in check is a should be easy. To lose your temper or to take advantage of others is the same way. To mortify the flesh (or to suffer) is to advance yourself in discipline. The very act both requires discipline and creates discipline.

I may be putting words into someone's mouth here, but I don't believe anyone said you can't control what you do. What was said was that you can't control what you desire. I desire chocolate right now - I didn't do anything to cause that - I just really want it. However, I can control whether or not I go to the store and buy myself some chocolate. By the same token, I look at Brad Pitt and think "Damn, he's hot. Break me off a piece of that!" I didn't force myself to think he's attractive, I just do. But I am in a committed relationship, so is he, and I don't even know him personally - so I would never actually go find him and have sex with him. Understand the difference?

and I certainly wouldn't agree that it's about "giving in" to all these dark urges... I mean, if some bloke only likes blonde women, no-one talks about him resisting that temptation...

Nature and nurture. Choice is not relevant because it is not a cause, but an effect.

It´s no choice, the only choice is to accept it.

As we are made by God, it´s God himself who makes some of us gay. That´s a fine thing.God makes some of us short-tempered, horny, violent, alcoholic, and/or addicted to smoking/crack at birth... does that mean we should accept that as well?

Being short tempered harms a ones personal relationships with other, making it harder to interact in necessary and desired ways with others. It is a setback to the short tempered person and when the short tempered person snaps at someone for very little or no reason, they don't deserve it.

Horny people, as long as they are having consensual sex with partners, neither of who are cheating, are not harming anyone directly. They are missing out on fulfilling relationships, but they are not violating anyone’s rights.

Alcoholism is a disease. It harms the alcoholic, their family, and their friends. Excessive drinking is bad for the health. The bad temper and violent behavior that often accompany it is harmful to everyone the alcoholic interacts with. It is much the same with any chemical addiction. It destroys the body, mind, and relationships, harming both the user and those close to them, especially when a child is born addicted.

Homosexuality, in it of itself, harms no one. A homosexual couple living together, working together, sleeping together, paying the bills together, et cetera in no way harms anyone or takes away anyone’s rights in any more way than a heterosexual relationship does.

Twin studies (http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/timt/papers/twin_studies/) show that homosexuality is a combination of genetic and environmental influence. Exhibiting homosexual behavior is a choice in the exact same way that exhibiting heterosexual behavior is.

To be unable to control your desires is not a matter of nature or enviroment, but discipline. If your weak minded and giving into your desires was uncontrollable, then every act of a child molester and rapist would be labled as " their natural sexuality." To say you are unable to control yourself in such matters should constitute criminal bias. Not in the sense that you are commiting a crime, but that you are a threat to those around you because of your lack of control. I.e. if indeed a homosexual individual had an STD or was suspected of the same, his lack of self-control would endanger others. This is obviously an extreme case, but imagine if a person were to be so unable to control himself that he would "hit on someone" in the wrong enviroment, like at work. His inappropriate behavior in the workplace would affect him greatly. If a man can live his life without ever giving into the desire to eat meat or to live a life of comfort, then a simple thing like keeping your emotions in check is a should be easy. To lose your temper or to take advantage of others is the same way. To mortify the flesh (or to suffer) is to advance yourself in discipline. The very act both requires discipline and creates discipline.

To be unable to control your desires is not a matter of nature or enviroment, but discipline. If your weak minded and giving into your desires was uncontrollable, then every act of a child molester and rapist would be labled as " their natural sexuality." To say you are unable to control yourself in such matters should constitute criminal bias. Not in the sense that you are commiting a crime, but that you are a threat to those around you because of your lack of control. I.e. if indeed a heterosexual individual had an STD or was suspected of the same, his lack of self-control would endanger others. This is obviously an extreme case, but imagine if a person were to be so unable to control himself that he would "hit on someone" in the wrong enviroment, like at work. His inappropriate behavior in the workplace would affect him greatly. If a man can live his life without ever giving into the desire to eat meat or to live a life of comfort, then a simple thing like keeping your emotions in check is a should be easy. To lose your temper or to take advantage of others is the same way. To mortify the flesh (or to suffer) is to advance yourself in discipline. The very act both requires discipline and creates discipline.

It is a two way street. Sexual orientation and self control have literally nothing to do with each other directly. A homosexual person can be as monogamous or as unfaithful as a heterosexual person. It has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, but with their choice of actions.

i don't like the idea of genes and chemicals dictating any part of who a person is. i don't like them, they look seedy, with their double helices and whatnot. i don't have any proof, its just something i beleive to make sense of my world.
but back to the question. i beleive that every human being is bisexual to begin with but from as soon as they are born they are affected on into one of the two 'camps'.
but ultimately, i think it depends on choice, someone can choose to be completely straight, play sports, hate fags and beat wives (not saying this is representitve of most heterosexuals, i'm just taking an extreme here) but its a self-destructive choice, like drug-abuse or even suicide.

I understand the concept of homosexual activity, but why do people persist in saying homosexuality means engaging in homosexual acts? It's not like there aren't gay virgins. Homosexuality refers to the attraction/orientation, not the acting. Hence it is certainly not a choice by any rational understanding.

It´s no choice, the only choice is to accept it.

As we are made by God, it´s God himself who makes some of us gay. That´s a fine thing.God makes some of us short-tempered, horny, violent, alcoholic, and/or addicted to smoking/crack at birth... does that mean we should accept that as well?

Er... if God makes people a certain way, what is there to choose? Are you trying to say God can make some inhumanly violent people who never actually act violently because they don't "accept" it? If you're going to be essentialist about people, don't half-ass it. Either it's in your nature or it isn't; you can't just brush it off.

It´s no choice, the only choice is to accept it.

As we are made by God, it´s God himself who makes some of us gay. That´s a fine thing.God makes some of us short-tempered, horny, violent, alcoholic, and/or addicted to smoking/crack at birth... does that mean we should accept that as well?

Yes we should. We should not however, allow them to harm others, or themselves to a degree.

Oh, and as for the God aspect... that only matters if in fact you are a believer of God... God gives everyone problems to deal with, whether it is temptation by satan or temptation by nature. Homosexuals have no reason to get off easy with reworkings of the bible that justify their sins.... People who have tendancies to cheat on tests, cheat on wives, lie, steal, kill, abuse, fornicate, rape, masturbate, get drunk, or yell at their parents... they don't get off easy, why should Gays?

Anyway, that's just my little religious rant :)

...or for that matter, why should people 'get off easy' who use a social construct, in this case religion, to pontificate and to marginalise people with the help of the invented supreme beings, both 'evil' and 'good', which allow for intellectual laziness and an easy way out of dealing with something they find personally disturbing or beyond their comprehension?

Various factors ingrained in a person by the way they're raised, their social interactions, and even random influences such as television can have a strong influence on how someone's sexuality developes. It may not be a conscious choice, but it is a learned behavior, just like all other sexually abnormal behaviors.

Abnormal is not an insult. It means, not in keeping with the way things happen in the majority of cases.