NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, I am neither condemning nor praising Europe for what I am about to say. Further, I hope this does not become a flame war (though it probably will be...).

I am just curious: for many centuries, Europe was one of the most religious continents in the world. In the last, hmm, 1500 years, the religion mainly found in Europe has been Christianity. Love it or hate it, I think we can all accept that as fact. During those years, a great many religious texts were written (by those few who could actually write...) and church was a part of everyday life. Sometimes too much so: the cruel excesses of Christianity are well known to just about everyone here. Anyway, from Luther to Lewis, religion greatly influenced European life.

In the last fifty years, however, that has almost completely reversed itself, at least in Western Europe. In many nations, people are discomforted by open talk of religion, and offended by religious policies (the more extreme ones, at least). France, for example, deported a Muslim cleric recently because of his discussion of his rather far-right interpretations of the Qur'an.

What I'm asking is, in the past fifty to one hundred years (or perhaps longer; I'm not sure) how did Europe become so secular? What happened between then and now in the churches, governments, and general mindset of the people?

I should say that I am American (and please, please don't look at this as cause for my mention of France above; I like it as much as any other European nation), and we still tend to view religion as a more open thing. I have also never been to Europe, so if I'm majorly missing something concerning its religious standings, please let me know. I hope this turns out to be the productive discussion I intended it to be...

*flames, posts anti-Bush comments here, etc.*

We exported most of the fundamentalists to America, particluarly during the 19th and early 20th centuries. What was left was for the most part not viable as a religious community, and secularisation became a only matter of time. It has taken a few more generations since, but we are definitely at a critical mass here.

They dont. They just keep it to themselves unlike in the U.S

Numerous reasons...

The French Revolution and the hostility towards religion inherent.

Other anti-Conservative revolutions and the hostility towards the religious institutions which supported them.

Hostility towards the privilaged members of the clergy.

Nationalism and resentment of the influence of religionious institutions on local populations.

The influence of Marxist thought in Europe.

The desire to differ themselves from the United States, whose population is generally more religious than Europe's.

Scandals involving clergy trying to take control of countries.

There's more... but that'll do. Until someone writes a few pages, this will be the best and most comprehensive answer to the question in the thread.

Numerous reasons...

The French Revolution and the hostility towards religion inherent.

Other anti-Conservative revolutions and the hostility towards the religious institutions which supported them.

Hostility towards the privilaged members of the clergy.

Nationalism and resentment of the influence of religionious institutions on local populations.

The influence of Marxist thought in Europe.

The desire to differ themselves from the United States, whose population is generally more religious than Europe's.

Scandals involving clergy trying to take control of countries.

There's more... but that'll do. Until someone writes a few pages, this will be the best and most comprehensive answer to the question in the thread.

That's interesting...so the major mistake of religious institutions, judging from your post, was their involvement in affairs of state? I can see why. It's a good way for a religious group to corrupt itself and commit some rather shameful double standards. Absolute power corrupts absolutely... :evil: That's why separation of church and state is best for both parties. Theocracies disturb me. Perhaps Europe's history would have been less turbulent if religion had stayed out of politics...

I'm still waiting for one of those "few pages" posts... :wink:

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

The desire to differ themselves from the United States, whose population is generally more religious than Europe's.

You'r very funny Ascencia, believing that Europeans don't trust in God because Americans do is very easy but not true. Truth is in history not in some american opinion.

And see farer in History, we must go since the 15th and the 14th centuries to understand why europeans become secular. In those time membres of the Clergy live like "Princes and Kings" (like said Guichardin in his book "Guerres d'Italie" (1559). People become to being almost secular because of clergy wealthy...

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

It would have been a lot more useful & interesting if you could have debated each of his points in thoughtful detail raather than just taking a shot and running for cover. I didn't see anything in Ascensia's post that was critical of religion - did you?

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

Then what exactly do you agree with, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to find out. "They just keep it to themselves" doesn't quite explain it well enough for me... :|

The desire to differ themselves from the United States, whose population is generally more religious than Europe's.

You'r very funny Ascencia, believing that Europeans don't trust in God because Americans do is very easy but not true. Truth is in history not in some american opinion.

And see farer in History, we must go since the 15th and the 14th centuries to understand why europeans become secular. In those time membres of the Clergy live like "Princes and Kings" (like said Guichardin in his book "Guerres d'Italie" (1559). People become to being almost secular because of clergy wealthy...
I mentioned that, if you cared to read the lines in the post that didn't contain the word "American". Do try to keep up, darling.

Scandals involving clergy trying to take control of countries.

not to mention the catholic church's unhesitating support for the most reactionary elements they could find.

http://students.uwsp.edu/mgris376/discontent/spain/pic09.html

I think it is mainly because the Church abused the power it had in the past. People got tired of it, and began to follow religious reformers like Martin Luther (one of the great liberals of the church!). That basically led to the rise of Protestants, who really don't take Christianity as seriously as the Catholics.

Something like that, anyway... (I'm no historian).

That basically led to the rise of Protestants, who really don't take Christianity as seriously as the Catholics.

but it took protestants to really fuck things up. goddamn puritans and their work ethic. and goddamn fundies that are holding down their kids' educations because they don't know how to think rationally.

Also ideas that created 'modern' Europe were heavily anti-clerical (such as Voltaire's "eccrize l'infame" (sp)).

Also for many temporal power in the Church after the French revolution was connected with the Ancien Regime, where the 3rd estate were marginalised and grouped pointlessly.

Also the rise of Napoleon saw the state dictate to the church, rather than vice-versa, which showed religion was of secondary importance to nationality.

Anyway, must go to bed. I'll dig out my notes later ;)

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

Then what exactly do you agree with, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to find out. "They just keep it to themselves" doesn't quite explain it well enough for me... :|

I should think its Fairly Self explainatory.

In Europe. Religious citizens tend to keep to themselves and not try to force their beliefs on others. Particularly in governement. They seem to take their secularism a lot more seriously. Which is Ironic because in the U.S, A country originally Made up of Puritans and other European Rejects who were pretty much one of the first countries to introduce secularism have politically influential elements constantly trying to push thier beliefs on others.

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

Then what exactly do you agree with, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to find out. "They just keep it to themselves" doesn't quite explain it well enough for me... :|

I should think its Fairly Self explainatory.

In Europe. Religious citizens tend to keep to themselves and not try to force their beliefs on others. Particularly in governement. They seem to take their secularism a lot more seriously. Which is Ironic because in the U.S, A country originally Made up of Puritans and other European Rejects who were pretty much one of the first countries to introduce secularism have politically influential elements constantly trying to push thier beliefs on others.
Uh, so Europeans are just superior to Americans? Thanks Adolf!

They're asking why secularism is so popular in Europe.

Also ideas that created 'modern' Europe were heavily anti-clerical (such as Voltaire's "eccrize l'infame" (sp)).

Also for many temporal power in the Church after the French revolution was connected with the Ancien Regime, where the 3rd estate were marginalised and grouped pointlessly.

Also the rise of Napoleon saw the state dictate to the church, rather than vice-versa, which showed religion was of secondary importance to nationality.

Anyway, must go to bed. I'll dig out my notes later ;)
I think this started with Henry VIII, he was the first leader to grab the church by the throat and shake.

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

Then what exactly do you agree with, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to find out. "They just keep it to themselves" doesn't quite explain it well enough for me... :|

I should think its Fairly Self explainatory.

In Europe. Religious citizens tend to keep to themselves and not try to force their beliefs on others. Particularly in governement. They seem to take their secularism a lot more seriously. Which is Ironic because in the U.S, A country originally Made up of Puritans and other European Rejects who were pretty much one of the first countries to introduce secularism have politically influential elements constantly trying to push thier beliefs on others.

Not so, for a long time in Britain, Catholics were treated as second class citizens. They had restrictions put on them on what jobs they could do, they could not go to university and they couldn't be monarch. The CoE is/was a very social institution fundementally tied to the State.

In France the Catholic Church was the state church although the state could tell the church what to do, who to appoint (having the pope in jail helped).

Throughout C20 Spain, the Catholic Church reigned supreme and was propped up by Franco.

Lol Ascensia. There Is no point in your post that I agree with.

Then what exactly do you agree with, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious to find out. "They just keep it to themselves" doesn't quite explain it well enough for me... :|

I should think its Fairly Self explainatory.

In Europe. Religious citizens tend to keep to themselves and not try to force their beliefs on others. Particularly in governement. They seem to take their secularism a lot more seriously. Which is Ironic because in the U.S, A country originally Made up of Puritans and other European Rejects who were pretty much one of the first countries to introduce secularism have politically influential elements constantly trying to push thier beliefs on others.

Not so, for a long time in Britain, Catholics were treated as second class citizens. They had restrictions put on them on what jobs they could do, they could not go to university and they couldn't be monarch. The CoE is/was a very social institution fundementally tied to the State.

In France the Catholic Church was the state church although the state could tell the church what to do, who to appoint (having the pope in jail helped).

Throughout C20 Spain, the Catholic Church reigned supreme and was propped up by Franco.
They still can't be monarch. But other restrictions have long since disappeared. But there has been alot of each side killing each other depending on who was in charge , e.g. Henry, Mary, ElizabethI.

Also ideas that created 'modern' Europe were heavily anti-clerical (such as Voltaire's "eccrize l'infame" (sp)).

Also for many temporal power in the Church after the French revolution was connected with the Ancien Regime, where the 3rd estate were marginalised and grouped pointlessly.

Also the rise of Napoleon saw the state dictate to the church, rather than vice-versa, which showed religion was of secondary importance to nationality.

Anyway, must go to bed. I'll dig out my notes later ;)
I think this started with Henry VIII, he was the first leader to grab the church by the throat and shake.

To a certain extent, but I was thinking of Napoleon who jailed the Pope and told him what to do. He even wrote the Catechisms (saying that the Apostle Paul said anyone who did not obey Napoleon who go to hell), appointed the Bishops and was effectively head of the Church.

Henry the VIII although important never got as far a Napoleon in dominating the church so thourerly (sp), but he did show the Popes power only lay in the hearts and minds of Catholics.

Not so, for a long time in Britain, Catholics were treated as second class citizens. They had restrictions put on them on what jobs they could do, they could not go to university and they couldn't be monarch. The CoE is/was a very social institution fundementally tied to the State.

In France the Catholic Church was the state church although the state could tell the church what to do, who to appoint (having the pope in jail helped).

Throughout C20 Spain, the Catholic Church reigned supreme and was propped up by Franco.

The Brits got their fanaticism mostly out of the way after the Civil War. decades of Puritan dictatorship will do that to you.

They still can't be monarch. But other restrictions have long since disappeared. But there has been alot of each side killing each other depending on who was in charge , e.g. Henry, Mary, ElizabethI.

Yes I know that they cannot be monarch, also until recently they could not even be PM. But I was using it as an example that Europe is not nessasarily secular (France is, I don't know enough about Germany, but most of the other ones have powerful religious lobbies/influence).

Not so, for a long time in Britain, Catholics were treated as second class citizens. They had restrictions put on them on what jobs they could do, they could not go to university and they couldn't be monarch. The CoE is/was a very social institution fundementally tied to the State.

In France the Catholic Church was the state church although the state could tell the church what to do, who to appoint (having the pope in jail helped).

Throughout C20 Spain, the Catholic Church reigned supreme and was propped up by Franco.

The Brits got their fanaticism mostly out of the way after the Civil War. decades of Puritan dictatorship will do that to you.

True, although there is still a streak of "Catholics cannot be loyal" in some obnoxious twits I've met.

I reckon that we re-examined out perogatives after Christmas was banned :D

They still can't be monarch. But other restrictions have long since disappeared. But there has been alot of each side killing each other depending on who was in charge , e.g. Henry, Mary, ElizabethI.

Yes I know that they cannot be monarch, also until recently they could not even be PM. But I was using it as an example that Europe is not nessasarily secular (France is, I don't know enough about Germany, but most of the other ones have powerful religious lobbies/influence).
Agreed. I think European Churches have learn to be more circumspect in thier influnce and dealing with politics. But there is in the UK any way a reluctance in many to be openly religious. Many UK laws were founded in Chrisitanity (as the UK is a Chrisitian nation) but many have been changed, for example Sunday trading. The fine for a large store opening Christmas day is only £5000. Not all the changes in my opinion are a good thing, not on religious grounds but on the grounds that now every day is the same, the structure of the week is fading away...babble over.

Unfortunately, a small group of middle class people, who hated religion, took control and forced secularisation upon us.

Also, I would like to point out that in Catholic countries (such as Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Malta and Italy) religion still is important. Granted it is not as important as the past, but many people (including the young) in these countries believe in God etc.

The Protestant countries, however, like Britain and the Scandanavian countries have greatly decreased in their faith - though I don't know why.

However, things are changing and religion in Europe is just taking a different form. Islam is growing and so is evangelical, protestant, 'American', fundamental Christianity.

Religion is still a big issue in Europe. Spain and Austria (? Imight have this wrong) have been campaigning for the new constitution to explicitly state that the EU is a Christian union. Which, in my view, is bad because a lot of Europeans simply aren't Christian.

Unfortunately, a small group of middle class people, who hated religion, took control and forced secularisation upon us.

Which middle class people? We simply have too many relgions not to be secular (which we are only technically, there is evidence that we are not secular)

Also, I would like to point out that in Catholic countries (such as Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Malta and Italy) religion still is important. Granted it is not as important as the past, but many people (including the young) in these countries believe in God etc.

But also in these countries the church ruled with an iron rod forcing the country to accept policies it did not nessaserily agree with. If this is the cost of having many people believing in God then I'm glad that few are. Also plenty of people in Britain beleive in one God or another, it is just that there are too many to not make secularisation nessassery

The Protestant countries, however, like Britain and the Scandanavian countries have greatly decreased in their faith - though I don't know why.

Good question.

I would say the main reason has been the pervasive influence of Marxist thought over the last 100 years. Ever since then socialist thought and class, well not warfare, perhaps rivalry, have become the "opiates of the masses". Issues to which most people feel its acceptable to get outspoken and emotional over tend to be those dealing with class, rather than religion.

Religion failed in Europe because it was run by the state, just as the economy failed in communist nations which tried to centrally managed production, price, distribution and consumption.

The most secular states are the ones which have had state-supported religions, whether Lutheran or Anglican or even Catholic (not so much).

Comprtition (as in the US with guaranteed religious freedoms) brings vitality. Monopoly brings stagnation.

Religion failed in Europe because it was run by the state, just as the economy failed in communist nations which tried to centrally managed production, price, distribution and consumption.

The most secular states are the ones which have had state-supported religions, whether Lutheran or Anglican or even Catholic (not so much).

Competition (as in the US with guaranteed religious freedoms) brings vitality. Monopoly brings stagnation.

Religion failed in Europe because it was run by the state, just as the economy failed in communist nations which tried to centrally managed production, price, distribution and consumption.

The most secular states are the ones which have had state-supported religions, whether Lutheran or Anglican or even Catholic (not so much).

Competition (as in the US with guaranteed religious freedoms) brings vitality. Monopoly brings stagnation.

What are you talking about? For hundreds of years the Catholic church had the ability to dictate to countries what they can and cannot do. War was banned on certain Holy days, countries who did not remain purely Catholic would be excommunicated (a fate worse than death back then) etc.. It wasn't until Napolean (or to a lesser extent, Henry VIII) that the state managed to take some control from the church. I agree with the earlier posts which suggested that the main reason was that the church became corrupt and greedy, supporting dictatorships and the like, causing religion to be viewed less favourably by Europeans. And I say, good for them. I despise all religion.

[quote="Proletariat Comrades"]
What happened between then and now in the churches, governments, and general mindset of the people?
[quote]

Education ?

(ducks, runs)
OK - that was probably a bit flamey & I apologise. I have in fact met a great many very well educated and smart Americans. Nonetheless I'm still rather gobsmacked that the idea of teaching creationism in U.S. schools (sorry 'intelligent' design) wasn't laughed out in five minutes flat ... I'm probably just hopelessly secular :D

Back on subject - I suspect theres quite a few complex reasons for whats happened. Personally I think a couple of factors that might have come into play are that:
1. Europeans have spent the majority of the last several hundred years slaughtering each other in a great many new and exciting ways for all sorts of reasons - not all religiously motivated by any means but enough times that perhaps it's somewhat jaded us to the concept.

2. In Europe theres an awful lot of people living in a smaller geographical area than the US with a very diverse set of ethnic and releigious groupings. It could be a density thing. We've been forced by the decreasing friction of distance (easier and faster travel) in the last 50 years to get along with each other a bit more given that we are effectively living cheek-by-jowl.

3. No offence to USA'ians again - but a lot of European nations are a lot older than you guys and perhaps we've gone through our religious 'phase'. We've simply outgrown it.
(actually I think this is an unlikely explanation ... we're still cheerfully immature in sooo many ways)

4. It's the influence of Europes close proximity to those godless commies during the cold war :wink:

The Protestant countries, however, like Britain and the Scandanavian countries have greatly decreased in their faith - though I don't know why.


Maybe their faith has been transferred towards humanity and away from superstition. It's called Evolving/Maturing and is not a "decrease in faith" at all.

Unfortunately, a small group of middle class people, who hated religion, took control and forced secularisation upon us.

it wasn't the middle class in spain that went around expropriating catholic church property and destroying religious stuff during the civil war.

4. It's the influence of Europes close proximity to those godless commies during the cold war :wink:

ROTFL! That's kind of surprising; aren't the Eastern European, ex-communist nations more religious than the Western ones, though? I just find that incredible that in those places where religion was supressed it remains quite strong, but in the West, where religious practices were given more librerty than in the past they have faded (this is a generalization, of course; the remarks about Catholicism in Italy, Spain, etc. are very astute). Anyone have comments about that?

Those "fundies" that everyone loves to hate do not represent the majority of religious Americans. I try to be a liberal Christian (no one actually IS one except Christ, I like to say) myself. But I don't feel like starting a flame war, so I'll stop talking about my beliefs here...

I had no idea Napoleon had such a large effect on European religion. Thanks for enlightening me about that. I know about Henry VIII and his dealings with the church, but I wasn't thinkng about him when I wrote my original post.

Ok. I feel pathetic. I SHOULD know the answer to this. I'm in an AP European History class. Do I know? No. If there's anyone who influences the college board (the people who write the big test to see if you get college credit for taking the course) out there, take note. This would make an excellent essay question.
Anyway, I would say that secularism is due, at least in part, to the industrial revolution. Once everyone started making money and living in big, dirty, nasty, overpopulated cities, religion became less important. The only reason I can think of for this not happening in the U.S. is that the U.S. was "secular" from the get-go, so it does everything a bit differently. Well, actually I think it's more than the industrial revolution. During the Renaissance, Italian and southern Renaissance painters stressed humanism and the achievements that humans could make. Sure they still loved God, but they began to see that humans can do some stuff without God's help. With the advent of Protestantism, Calvinism, The Church of England, and the Scientific Revolution, some people didn't know where to turn and fell out of religon (I'm just guessing on that part.) During the French Revolution, the Declaration of the Rights of Man proclaimed religious freedom. Good for them. (If you haven't read it, you should. I think it's better than the American Declaration of Independence, which, if I remember correctly, is basically a bunch of whining about what a big bully England was.) Then everything got more scientific, and more revolutionized, and a few great wars happened. And now the France (for example) which used to be VERY Catholic, protests all showings of religion, or whatever. But hey, Spain's still Catholic (?), Germany's still Protestant (?) and Russia's still Russian Orthodox (?) essentially, right? (Sorry if I got any of this wrong. AP Euro isn't my best class.)

First off, I am neither condemning nor praising Europe for what I am about to say. Further, I hope this does not become a flame war (though it probably will be...).

I am just curious: for many centuries, Europe was one of the most religious continents in the world. In the last, hmm, 1500 years, the religion mainly found in Europe has been Christianity. Love it or hate it, I think we can all accept that as fact. During those years, a great many religious texts were written (by those few who could actually write...) and church was a part of everyday life. Sometimes too much so: the cruel excesses of Christianity are well known to just about everyone here. Anyway, from Luther to Lewis, religion greatly influenced European life.

In the last fifty years, however, that has almost completely reversed itself, at least in Western Europe. In many nations, people are discomforted by open talk of religion, and offended by religious policies (the more extreme ones, at least). France, for example, deported a Muslim cleric recently because of his discussion of his rather far-right interpretations of the Qur'an.

What I'm asking is, in the past fifty to one hundred years (or perhaps longer; I'm not sure) how did Europe become so secular? What happened between then and now in the churches, governments, and general mindset of the people?

I should say that I am American (and please, please don't look at this as cause for my mention of France above; I like it as much as any other European nation), and we still tend to view religion as a more open thing. I have also never been to Europe, so if I'm majorly missing something concerning its religious standings, please let me know. I hope this turns out to be the productive discussion I intended it to be...

Europe isn't "anti-religion".
I've never seen as much religion as in Spain during easter. Or as many roadside shrines as in france... etc.
In general, people are very religious. But they know better than mixing politics and religion.

The Protestant countries, however, like Britain and the Scandanavian countries have greatly decreased in their faith - though I don't know why.


Maybe their faith has been transferred towards humanity and away from superstition. It's called Evolving/Maturing and is not a "decrease in faith" at all.

Are you saying that my faith is superstition?

Unfortunately, a small group of middle class people, who hated religion, took control and forced secularisation upon us.

it wasn't the middle class in spain that went around expropriating catholic church property and destroying religious stuff during the civil war.

I was talking generally. You can see that this middle class occured in many countries within the last 100 years, for example: Russia and Lenin.

The Protestant countries, however, like Britain and the Scandanavian countries have greatly decreased in their faith - though I don't know why.


Maybe their faith has been transferred towards humanity and away from superstition. It's called Evolving/Maturing and is not a "decrease in faith" at all.

Are you saying that my faith is superstition?

What makes your faith any more likely than Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

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I think the answer, when it comes down to it, is that when you don't force religion on people a lot of them just aren't interested in it.

Religion only has value when you choose it for yourself.

This is a really interesting topic, Proletariat Comrades; tks for suggesting it. I think Ascencia has covered a lot of possible reasons. The posts abt mixing church and State are spot on. In Australia we had a Governor-General who was an Anglican bishop (or archbishop? I forget). When details of his administrative actions re child-abusing priests became public, the fuss was so great he resigned. (He wasn't accused of abuse himself.) Our very secular society doesn't seem to take to such appointments, yet it's (fairly) relaxed about people's faiths. Recently when a referee stopped a Muslim girl playing soccer in a headscarf and track-pants, the soccer authorities came down firmly on the girl's side, reinstated her and apologised. (But then, sport is supposed to be our national religion...).
I wonder if the secularism has to do with how much a people feels itself threatened? Societies under threat feel the need to unite, and religion often provides a unifying symbol. Doesn't have to be religion, of course -- Peron, Lech Walesa -- or just the idea of "our nation", whatever it is.
I don't think I can have an informed opinion on this one, though, because my mob only came to Australia 100-something years ago. This land is old, but my family, in it, isn't. I don't see how I can really understand Europe, where people live where their ancestors lived, in countries that have existed -- at least as an idea -- for centuries.

The nature of America's development may have something to do with the fact that it has maintained a higher level of religiosity than Europe. Since the Enlightenment, religion has been diminishing throughout the Western world. Although America as an idea was the brainchild of Enlightenment thought -- I don't think many of the Founding Fathers were in any sense deeply committed to any organised religion -- the large bulk of America's immigrant population tended to be from poor and generally badly-educated backgrounds: the tired, poor and huddled masses. In general -- I realsie there are of course exceptions -- lack of education tends to go with a relatively unquestioning attitude towards religious authority. The earlier introduction in America of proto-democracy gave these people a stronger voice, not only in the government of their country but more importantly in government and social organisation at a much lower level: sherrifs, judges, mayors etc.

Both Americans and Europeans in the 19th centuries had a religiously-based notion of their innate superiority, but while the Europeans had perforce to export their imperialistic ambitions to Africa and Asia, America was free to carve out its empire in its own backyard. European colonialism was limited to smallish settlements and governorships amongst huge native populations (with the exception of Australia); American colonialism involved mass migration westward and the effective destruction of the original inhabitants. So European ideas of Manifest Destiny tended to be both dilute and remote; in America, they were the mainstream.

Also, European colonials looked back to their homelands, and were more closely integrated with European culture; American colonials were much more isolated and thrown onto their own resources, since the American-European metropolitan centres were themselves at one remove from European culture. This possibly provided a much more fertile soil for religion to bed in and grow in fervid and vigourous new directions.

Europe also suffered two devastating world wars. WWI had a massive impact on organised Christianity. The sheer random pointless slaughter, which the organised state religions failed to preach against in any meaningful way, knocked a lot of the bllind faith out of a lot of the population. WWII did the same again, although to a lesser extent, since the war was generally felt to be a good and necessary thing.

Major organsied religion is dying throughout the western world. The day of the Catholic Church as a major player in European life is over. Ireland, Italy, Spain -- they are all pretty much robustly secular. The welfare state, public medicine and state education have replaced many of the previously important points of contact between the Church and day-to-day life. The future for western religion seems to be in small, adaptive religious groups/factions/cults, but these will only ever operate around the fringes and only interact with those who actively seek them out. The only difference between America and Europe is that America has a common language and a common mass-media, which by maintaining a larger common identity is slowing down the disintegration of large-scale organised religion. The same processes -- brought about by, amongst other things, easily available contraception and a more distrustful attitute towards authority -- are at work in America; they are just operating at a slower pace.

(I should probably have prefaced this with a "probably" or an "IMO": I'm not making any prophecies.)

As far as I can remember from world history I believe Europe went secular in order to survive. Because had they continued to be so obivously religious they would have imploded and or exploded by now.
Also there are the lingering effects of forced athetism by leaders like Stalin, Hitler, etc to be considered. And the fact that years of Catholic versus Protestant a.k.a. France versus England has probaly soured everyone to religious openness. I don't know I slept through class. :wink:

The nature of America's development may have something to do with the fact that it has maintained a higher level of religiosity than Europe. Since the Enlightenment, religion has been diminishing throughout the Western world. Although America as an idea was the brainchild of Enlightenment thought -- I don't think many of the Founding Fathers were in any sense deeply committed to any organised religion -- the large bulk of America's immigrant population tended to be from poor and generally badly-educated backgrounds: the tired, poor and huddled masses. In general -- I realsie there are of course exceptions -- lack of education tends to go with a relatively unquestioning attitude towards religious authority. The earlier introduction in America of proto-democracy gave these people a stronger voice, not only in the government of their country but more importantly in government and social organisation at a much lower level: sherrifs, judges, mayors etc.

Both Americans and Europeans in the 19th centuries had a religiously-based notion of their innate superiority, but while the Europeans had perforce to export their imperialistic ambitions to Africa and Asia, America was free to carve out its empire in its own backyard. European colonialism was limited to smallish settlements and governorships amongst huge native populations (with the exception of Australia); American colonialism involved mass migration westward and the effective destruction of the original inhabitants. So European ideas of Manifest Destiny tended to be both dilute and remote; in America, they were the mainstream.

Also, European colonials looked back to their homelands, and were more closely integrated with European culture; American colonials were much more isolated and thrown onto their own resources, since the American-European metropolitan centres were themselves at one remove from European culture. This possibly provided a much more fertile soil for religion to bed in and grow in fervid and vigourous new directions.

Europe also suffered two devastating world wars. WWI had a massive impact on organised Christianity. The sheer random pointless slaughter, which the organised state religions failed to preach against in any meaningful way, knocked a lot of the bllind faith out of a lot of the population. WWII did the same again, although to a lesser extent, since the war was generally felt to be a good and necessary thing.

Major organsied religion is dying throughout the western world. The day of the Catholic Church as a major player in European life is over. Ireland, Italy, Spain -- they are all pretty much robustly secular. The welfare state, public medicine and state education have replaced many of the previously important points of contact between the Church and day-to-day life. The future for western religion seems to be in small, adaptive religious groups/factions/cults, but these will only ever operate around the fringes and only interact with those who actively seek them out. The only difference between America and Europe is that America has a common language and a common mass-media, which by maintaining a larger common identity is slowing down the disintegration of large-scale organised religion. The same processes -- brought about by, amongst other things, easily available contraception and a more distrustful attitute towards authority -- are at work in America; they are just operating at a slower pace.

(I should probably have prefaced this with a "probably" or an "IMO": I'm not making any prophecies.)

Wow, that's an impressive post, Clappi. You did your homework! And Ardchoille, you make an excellent point when you say that you can't understand European culture because you haven't lived in a single area for centuries like they have. I can't understand that sort of thing, either. My parents moved to the location I live in, so I have only a single generation's worth of roots here!

The idea of organized religion disintegrating, throughout the Western world, is a pertinent one. This process has indeed been much slower in America, perhaps due to the country's well being and a sense of "blessedness" among a good many of our people; something not experienced in the travails of twentieth century Europe. I'm generalizing here, but in America, some people's faith in God and country has been encouraged by the fact that America has done so well. (This will probably invite flames...). The country's Puritan heritage, no doubt, has something to do with this, as well.

The fact remains, though, that the same things as are happening in Europe have begun in America: outcry against the Catholic church concerning abuses (though of a different nature...); the death of more mainstream, liberal churches (Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.); and the growth in popularity of more fundamental, evangelistic churches that are more part of the "fringe" than their mainstream counterparts, and receive more backlash by the secular population.

Apparently, the best thing to do if one desires a religious country is to allow its citizens to worship whoever and however they wish. It's strange to think that this ideal goes against the teachings of Christianity itself...

Double post... :evil: :oops:

What makes your faith any more likely than Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

I believe it to be the truth....and so do a billion other people.

Religion and Santa Claus are very different, you can't compare them (however, if you are refering to Saint Nicholas then yes, I believe in Santa Claus).