NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm only asking this because I don't know, and I want answers...

If the "Jihadists" are just small groups of extremists, then why doesn't the muslim world do more to distance itself from them? I rarely hear any leaders of Islam speak out against terrorism, or assure us that they do not support the extremist ideals.

Even the top representatives of american mosques refuse to do anything more than pay lip service, if even that, to terrorist attacks, and events like the brutal murder of Nick Berg on camera.

Now, please, do not get me wrong, I really do want to believe that the majority of islam hates the terrorists... but seriously, nothing's supporting that.

You can pass some things off to mob mentality, I guess, like the Fallujah massacre where the mob burned the american bodies on TV and took pictures of them dangling from the bridge... and I guess you could even pass off the cheering in the streets after 9/11 to mob/protestor mentality...

But I am seriously dissappointed in the fact that the Muslim world refuses to speak out, let alone take action, against major threats to the world, and their reputation, like Al Qaeda.

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Furthermore, why don't all churches attempt to seperate themselves from their evil limbs? If your arm offends you, cut it off... why does the catholic church refuse to take more than mild action to seperate itself from the wicked child molesting parts of their ministry?

Ever heard of "excommunication?" It's the action of formally stating "They are not with us." Why don't the catholics kick out the molesting priests? Why don't the Mosques kick out those who support Jihad? Why don't these churches kick out the people who blaspheme their God(s) in their name?!

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OK, that's just my little rant... I seriously hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did, please tell me. But I really want answers. I want to believe that I'm missing something, and that muslims hate terrorists, and that the catholic church is taking actions against their criminal priests, etc etc.

(Ok, the catholic thing is obviously a side-issue in this thread, but whatever)

EDIT: OK, more refined question: Why don't Middle-Eastern Muslims speak out?

Something about religions not being able to speak at all keeps me from taking this seriously.

If you've got something to say about communicativeness, say it about individuals not religions.

Uhhh they do.

Well...even though your question is uncomfortably vague... I'll have to say because Islam teaches "An eye for an eye", and the terrorists are just getting their revenge.

Uhhh they do.well, I never really hear about it... care to show me something?

They disagree with the terrorists Strategy but not their politics. And with the U.S seemingly taking Isreals side it only helps but drive more Moslims to action, by becomming terrorists.

Perhaps the media, in an effort to make all Muslims look like terrorists, does not show the the peace loving, Islamic decrying the actions of his brother.
Or, maybe Muslims think that actions speak louder than words and instead of saying, "Damn, I hate those terrorists," they prefer to practice their lives in peace and harmony.
I guess if my country was invaded by a country that was mainly Christian, I would sooner denounce the Christian faith than my Islamic fundamentalist brothers.

You rarely see a lot of things.

You rarely see a lot of things....so care to show me something? I keep up with the news fairly well...

FOX News?

They disagree with the terrorists Strategy but not their politics. And with the U.S seemingly taking Isreals side it only helps but drive more Moslims to action, by becomming terrorists.Yes, that's my big problem.

I see MILLIONS of AMERICANS telling us that the Islam world does not support terrorism... but i do not see many, let alone the majority of muslims, trying to distance themselves, beyond all the racial profiling issues.

Newsflash: Fox (or whatever media it is you watch/read/listen to) doesn't do a whole lot of reporting on key figues in Islam, unless they happen to make inflammatory statements. Do you have any idea about actual numbers, or are you relying on your own spoon-fed experience?

Newsflash: Fox (or whatever media it is you watch/read/listen to) doesn't do a whole lot of reporting on key figues in Islam, unless they happen to make inflammatory statements. Do you have any idea about actual numbers, or are you relying on your own spoon-fed experience?wow, you are looking for any excuse to turn this on me.

Did you even read the question? I said I WANT to believe that the muslim world is speaking out, but I just don't see it, please show me!

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.m-a-t.org/

They disagree with the terrorists Strategy but not their politics. And with the U.S seemingly taking Isreals side it only helps but drive more Moslims to action, by becomming terrorists.Yes, that's my big problem.

I see MILLIONS of AMERICANS telling us that the Islam world does not support terrorism... but i do not see many, let alone the majority of muslims, trying to distance themselves, beyond all the racial profiling issues.

Its the same reason that you said Usama Bin Laden was almost certainly in League with Saddam Hussein. They Stick with them upto a point because they figure the ends justify the means, but they dont actually want to become terrorists themselves because they know its wrong.

If situations were reversed I'm sure there be a greater ratio of Americans becomming terrorists.

Newsflash: Fox (or whatever media it is you watch/read/listen to) doesn't do a whole lot of reporting on key figues in Islam, unless they happen to make inflammatory statements. Do you have any idea about actual numbers, or are you relying on your own spoon-fed experience?wow, you are looking for any excuse to turn this on me.

Did you even read the question? I said I WANT to believe that the muslim world is speaking out, but I just don't see it, please show me!
I'd buy that line of bull if I hadn't read through another one of your threads on the subject where several people did link all sorts of resources for you to find Islamic condemnation of terrorism and watch you redefine what you where looking for at each turn.

But since I have seen that thread, I'm not buying it.

Ok, why do muslims NOT speak out against terrorism? Perhaps because even the least extremist ones still support their fellow religion men, duh! Why doesn't the catholic church speak against molestors? Because that would mean that they've done an equivocation! Of course "religion" can't be wrong (for them) right? My final conclusion is, that religion works for nothing but equivocation. Don't ever discuss with a religious person. You will get nowhere. Get the conclusions by your own, don't ask religious people to admit they're wrong. They can "excomunicate" you. lol. :twisted:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.m-a-t.org/thank you very much!

I find that very supportive, but unfortunately, I only find it supporting my idea that western muslims... the ones who do not live in muslim states, the ones who are not in the majoprity, oppose terrorism.

I already KNEW that :)

I guess I should rephrase the question:

"Can someone show me that the muslims of the Middle east speak out against terrorism?"

http://www.mvp-us.org/

Ok, why do muslims NOT speak out against terrorism? Perhaps because even the least extremist ones still support their fellow religion men, duh! Why doesn't the catholic church speak against molestors? Because that would mean that they've done an equivocation! Of course "religion" can't be wrong (for them) right? My final conclusion is, that religion works for nothing but equivocation. Don't ever discuss with a religious person. You will get nowhere. Get the conclusions by your own, don't ask religious people to admit they're wrong. They can "excomunicate" you. lol. :twisted:this is where my issue lies :)

Why should Muslims in the Middle East speak out against terrorism? Their life is crap and the only way to fight the imperialist United States is through acts of violence.

http://www.mvp-us.org/same thing, I KNOW the majority of western muslims speak out, I'm wondering about the majority of eastern (middle-eastern specifically) muslims...

I posted before I saw your reply, refer above.

You cant judge them on that. They have no way of speaking out. Its not as If western reporters go around to all of them and ask them.

My previous point still stands.

http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en64343&F_catID=&f_type=source

Why should Muslims in the Middle East speak out against terrorism? Their life is crap and the only way to fight the imperialist United States is through acts of violence.umm... OK, so youre saying that I am, as much as I fear it, right? Middle-Eastern muslims support terrorism?

You cant judge them on that. They have no way of speaking out. Its not as If western reporters go around to all of them and ask them.

My previous point still stands.Good point.

I think as much as most Christians support the Ku Klux Klan or the people who murder doctors who perform abortions. We have to put it in perspective.

Lets just compare Islamic fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists.

http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en64343&F_catID=&f_type=sourcevery interesting, and very hepful, thank you.

But I guess, since we have no way of polling/judging the people of these countries without being there... I guess we can only hope...

I think as much as most Christians support the Ku Klux Klan or the people who murder doctors who perform abortions. We have to put it in perspective.

Lets just compare Islamic fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists.LOL Very few Christian sects support the KKK... the majority oppose it greatly.

But it sure seems the opposite in the islam case... the majority of Islamic sects support terrorism, a few strongly oppose it.

I don't think we have anything to be afraid of as long as we don't piss off any more countries with our foreign policy.

Bt thats just not true. Thats the point.

Okay I will give you one. Perhaps others could find more?

Arafat referred to the attacks in the United States repeatedly as "blind terrorism."

"It must be clear that this blind terrorism is not justified because it targets the holy right of man to life without being part in any political conflict," he said.

"Allow me to announce our condemnation of the horrible crime which hit New York and Washington and led to the loss of thousands of innocent citizens. We announce that we put all our humble means under the Seville of all the nations of the world in order to protect this world from the threat of blind terrorism, which threatens the international community."

But the KKK is Christian, and I think that many Christians would agree with some of the KKK's beliefs -- such as homosexuality being wrong. Maybe they wouldn't go to some of the same extremes though, but they have some of the same basic "values." All in all, they are still fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists are the worst terrorists in the United States no matter what you may be thinking after Sept. 11th.

I think some Christians get a little giddy when an abortion doctor is killed . . .

I think as much as most Christians support the Ku Klux Klan or the people who murder doctors who perform abortions. We have to put it in perspective.

Lets just compare Islamic fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists.LOL Very few Christian sects support the KKK... the majority oppose it greatly.

But it sure seems the opposite in the islam case... the majority of Islamic sects support terrorism, a few strongly oppose it.
Where's your stat on this? If you can't determine the precentage then where the hell are you getting your assumption of "most?"

When was the last time you heard the churches speak out against the KKK, or doctor bombing? By your standard, since this rarely makes the news, then christian groups must support them, in the majority.

But the KKK is Christian, and I think that many Christians would agree with some of the KKK's beliefs -- such as homosexuality being wrong. Maybe they wouldn't go to some of the same extremes though, but they have some of the same basic "values." All in all, they are still fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists are the worst terrorists in the United States no matter what you may be thinking after Sept. 11th.

I think some Christians get a little giddy when an abortion doctor is killed . . .I feel ashamed of ANYONE who supports the KKK. Simple as that.

Haha With every post Raysia gets more and more pwned.

but you see the point right. ALL Born-again Conservative Christians Support the KKK Upto a point. I

Haha With every post Raysia gets more and more pwned
Not that he'll notice, he's like an inflatable punching clown. Eventually he'll just re-frame the question in a way to slightly martyr himself and start a whole new thread on the same misconceptions. Eventually he'll give a vague caveat that some people have made some points and then the next night, or few nights later, he'll come back with the same assumptions as if he just thought of it that day.

You totally missed my point. I was making the comparison of Islamic and Christian fundamentalism--thus likening the KKK to al Queda. By doing so, "most Christians" means that the same percentage of Muslims who agree with al Queda is around equal to the Christians who agree with the KKK and Christian fundamentalists.

NewAstrolia got it

I think as much as most Christians support the Ku Klux Klan or the people who murder doctors who perform abortions. We have to put it in perspective.

Lets just compare Islamic fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists.LOL Very few Christian sects support the KKK... the majority oppose it greatly.

But it sure seems the opposite in the islam case... the majority of Islamic sects support terrorism, a few strongly oppose it.
Where's your stat on this? If you can't determine the precentage then where the hell are you getting your assumption of "most?"

When was the last time you heard the churches speak out against the KKK, or doctor bombing? By your standard, since this rarely makes the news, then christian groups must support them, in the majority.But see, we have freedom of speech here.. we know the KKK only thrives where it is supported, and that usually is in the so-called bible-belt. Many of THOSE christian sects support it, but they do not speak for the majority of christians.

We know for a fact that the majority of some sects of Islam, like the kurds, and the western sects, often speak/act out against terrorism.. but we do not hear much from the rest against it...

I see your point, but the whole cheering in the streets thing has me unconvinced.

First off, they DO speak up. You just rarely get to hear. Check out the name Abdul Hadi Palazzi, he is a Sunni scholar and one of the most important Muslim figures in Italy, and he is extremely outspoken in his condemnations of terrorism and militant Islam. In one of his Fatwas he excommunicated Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam. He actually classifies terrorism as "fitnah" -sedition- and frequently speaks up against The Muslim Brotherhood and the House of Saud. who spread militant Islam.

Second, moderates by their very definition are not warlike. Until thy are made to feel that silence ammounts for complicity, they are more likely to simply go on with their lives than to engage into fiery disputes.

Yes except. With American Christians its a more moral matter. Unlike in the Mid-east where its about more Practical matters. ie. isreal and palestine

Haha With every post Raysia gets more and more pwned
Not that he'll notice, he's like an inflatable punching clown. Eventually he'll just re-frame the question in a way to slightly martyr himself and start a whole new thread on the same misconceptions. Eventually he'll give a vague caveat that some people have made some points and then the next night, or few nights later, he'll come back with the same assumptions as if he just thought of it that day.??

First off, they DO speak up. You just rarely get to hear. Check out the name Abdul Hadi Palazzi, he is a Sunni scholar and one of the most important Muslim figures in Italy, and he is extremely outspoken in his condemnations of terrorism and militant Islam. In one of his Fatwas he excommunicated Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam. He actually classifies terrorism as "fitnah" -sedition- and frequently speaks up against The Muslim Brotherhood and the House of Saud. who spread militant Islam.

Second, moderates by their very definition are not warlike. Until thy are made to feel that silence ammounts for complicity, they are more likely to simply go on with their lives than to engage into fiery disputes.that's good, and makes sense, thank you.

Raysia I think youd get a lot futher if you didnt Generalise. Generalisations and assumption Flat out kill any argument one tries to make. At least against one who is willing to call you on your untrue generalistions and assumptions.

I've recently made a Muslim friend and listening to him speak sure gave me insights. For example, he was talking about the never-ending Palestinian-Israeli conflict, specifically the destruction of Palestinian homes and Israeli "settlement". He asked how would you react if you were poor, unemployed and an aggressive foreign government bulldozed your home and relocated you to a refugee (concentration camp) while citizens, of a particular race/religion were allowed to take possession of that land by a govenrment heavily slanted by the same race/religion (Zionism)? At that point I understood the anger felt by Palestinians and perhaps other Muslims. He asked would it surprise you that young people are becoming suicide bombers? What the hell do they have to look forward to anyways and I am not so sure I wouldn't be inclined to react the same way. One thing I've learned from our friendship is that people, regardless of race or religion, are people and if you crap on them long enough you in essence create 'terrorists' though I'm now at a loss which direction to point fingers when using this label.

Raysia I think youd get a lot futher if you didnt Generalise. Generalisations and assumption Flat out kill any argument one tries to make. At least against one who is willing to call you on your untrue generalistions and assumptions.Where did I generalize?

All I did was ask a simple question, and it appears there is no answer... but for some reason, you think I have alterior motives, and are trying to pry something stupid out of me... i don't get why...

Tell me what you think I need to hear in regards to the topic, please. Convince me you are right, without trying to bash me.

I've recently made a Muslim friend and listening to him speak sure gave me insights. For example, he was talking about the never-ending Palestinian-Israeli conflict, specifically the destruction of Palestinian homes and Israeli "settlement". He asked how would you react if you were poor, unemployed and an aggressive foreign government bulldozed your home and relocated you to a refugee (concentration camp) while citizens, of a particular race/religion were allowed to take possession of that land by a govenrment heavily slanted by the same race/religion (Zionism)? At that point I understood the anger felt by Palestinians and perhaps other Muslims. He asked would it surprise you that young people are becoming suicide bombers? What the hell do they have to look forward to anyways and I am not so sure I wouldn't be inclined to react the same way. One thing I've learned from our friendship is that people, regardless of race or religion, are people and if you crap on them long enough you in essence create 'terrorists' though I'm now at a loss which direction to point fingers when using this label.I'm going to admit right now that I don't know that much about the israeli-palestine conflict, but I know that a lot of terrorists say it's the reason they attack us.
I'd like to do some research on this, but I just don't know where/who/how to look to.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.m-a-t.org/

http://www.mvp-us.org/

For myself thank you, but I'm afraid for some it is pearls before swine. Asked for white you provided it only to hear it isn't the right shade of white.

http://www.ldolphin.org/yinyang.jpg

The Advice was directed at you. But I wasnt trying to Bash, Though I can see how you could have thought that.

I wont Get into the Anti-American Terrorism Thats all Bullshit. I think mot people on this board know my opinions Regarding Al Qaeda.

But I guess, since we have no way of polling/judging the people of these countries without being there... I guess we can only hope...I posted a link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,661807,00.html) a few weeks ago about "the first ever opinion poll in Muslim countries". It only asked about 9/11 in particular.

But I guess, since we have no way of polling/judging the people of these countries without being there... I guess we can only hope...I posted a link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,661807,00.html) a few weeks ago about "the first ever opinion poll in Muslim countries". It only asked about 9/11 in particular.....geee... unless I'm really blind, those numbers seem to support my fears...

NewAstrolia got it
I GET ALL!

You do realise that unlike the Chrisitan denominations, the Islamic world has no central authority? This intensifies the tendency for fundamentalists to drown out moderates.

Is it not something to do with the religion teaching that they should not betray thier own to a none muslim but try to sort out those who err themselves. This works as long as when they see some one about to do somerhing murderous they do something before the fact.

Re the arguments about why people beocme suicide bombers and set out to kill children, sorry but there is no justification for this at all. ever! If you kill my children I kill you, I don't then target your children. Any religion that encourages the slaughter of the inocent (children) need to be wiped off the face of the planet. And no that is not extreme, you can never give an excuse for the murder of children, it is the most cowardly act you can imagine.
But saying all this I can't offer a solution to the conflict in Israel, I only know it is not violence.

You do realise that unlike the Chrisitan denominations, the Islamic world has no central authority? This intensifies the tendency for fundamentalists to drown out moderates.I know... I'm talking about majorities here... all I want to know is if the majority opposes terrorism.

I know... I'm talking about majorities here... all I want to know is if the majority opposes terrorism.

The majority probably just wants to get on with their lives. Most people tend to lean away from extremism. You don't really hear about the millions of ordinary people in the Mid East and the millions more (who aren't Arab) in Pakistan and India and Malaysia and Indonesia and the UK and Canada and the US who just want to get on with their lives and who just want to solve their own problems.

The trouble is, as in any religion, a few loudmouth fundamentalists give everone a bad name.

Everything in this thread has been about what I expected... "Blah Blah Blah U.S. Bad!" Screw all that for a minute. For just a moment, foret imperialism, forget Israel, forget all this petty crap, and listen.

Fear. Everyday, we live with fear in the U.S., fear of a new terrorist attack. The fear we feel pales in comparison to the outright terror that people in the Middle East feel. A person seen being pro-Western, or supporting the West can expect to be dead, along with his family, within a few weeks. We're seeing this in Iraq now, violence not just against foreigners, but against anyone working with the Americans. I've touched on this issue before, look to Germany. After WWII, Nazi guerillas struck against the allies and people working with the allies. No one spoke out against them, just as no one spoke out against the Nazis during the peak of the war and their power. Why? Terror. When an innocently voiced opinion in opposition to extremists is likely to get you killed, the opinions don't get voiced.

Everything in this thread has been about what I expected... "Blah Blah Blah U.S. Bad!" Screw all that for a minute. For just a moment, foret imperialism, forget Israel, forget all this petty crap, and listen.

Fear. Everyday, we live with fear in the U.S., fear of a new terrorist attack. The fear we feel pales in comparison to the outright terror that people in the Middle East feel. A person seen being pro-Western, or supporting the West can expect to be dead, along with his family, within a few weeks. We're seeing this in Iraq now, violence not just against foreigners, but against anyone working with the Americans. I've touched on this issue before, look to Germany. After WWII, Nazi guerillas struck against the allies and people working with the allies. No one spoke out against them, just as no one spoke out against the Nazis during the peak of the war and their power. Why? Terror. When an innocently voiced opinion in opposition to extremists is likely to get you killed, the opinions don't get voiced.*applauds*

So do the people of the middle east support terrorism because they conscienciously endorse it? or do they support it out of fear because they don't want to be killed?

I guess the answer is what we're seeing in Iraq... half are happy they don't live in fear, and half are supporting the terrorists...

They still live in fear in Iraq. We haven't killed all the resistance yet, and collaborater's are still likely to face the business end of a Al-Qaeda member's rifle, or a member of one of the other various awful factions fighting for dominance within post-Saddam Iraq. They're willing to kill any ammount of people to gain power. They need to be destroyed before the truth of how the Iraq's feel can be learned.

I'm going to admit right now that I don't know that much about the israeli-palestine conflict, but I know that a lot of terrorists say it's the reason they attack us.
I'd like to do some research on this, but I just don't know where/who/how to look to.

Raysia, ever heard of this site: Google (http://www.google.com). It's amazing! it'll let you search the internet!!! Wow!

People often forget an important fact about Islam: it's a relatively young religion. It started somewhere in the 7th century CE, and if we assume that all large religions go through about the same stages of development, the Islam is right now where Christianity was during the Crusades, and that wasn't pretty.

This is of course only theory, but it might help to explain partly why there are so many violent fundamentalists. Add the fact that most people in the Middle East live in poverty and are basically raised surrounded by violence, and it becomes even clearer.

Of course all Middle Eastern Muslims don't support terrorists, but it isn't that hard to understand why there are so many that turn to violence.

http://www.mvp-us.org/

Yes...but this linked website is run by American muslims...I'm more aware of that yes...muslims in America don't support it...I want the Egyptian...the Syrian....the Lebanese.....Nigerian....Sudanese...Yemeni..Saudi...especially the Saudi.. I want to hear THEIR imans go on National television...speak out in their mosques against the jihadists...etc..I try to watch things like the BBC or even Al-Arabiya and I try damn hard to see if Al-Jazeera has any voices against terrorism (I'd be more likely to see the moon become swiss cheese)

I think as much as most Christians support the Ku Klux Klan or the people who murder doctors who perform abortions. We have to put it in perspective.

Lets just compare Islamic fundamentalists to Christian fundamentalists.

I can flat out guarantee you that if the KKK bombed a church or a black home..you'd have white Christian ministers on televisions decrying the act...you'd see them in the pulpits saying "These men don't represent my faith...they are animals...they deserve to be thrown from the church".. and when you had the men who slew an abortion doctor you had Christian ministers left and right on television saying this man doesn't represent them....I don't see muslim imans in the middle east on any widespread forum.

Okay I will give you one. Perhaps others could find more?

Arafat referred to the attacks in the United States repeatedly as "blind terrorism."

"It must be clear that this blind terrorism is not justified because it targets the holy right of man to life without being part in any political conflict," he said.

"Allow me to announce our condemnation of the horrible crime which hit New York and Washington and led to the loss of thousands of innocent citizens. We announce that we put all our humble means under the Seville of all the nations of the world in order to protect this world from the threat of blind terrorism, which threatens the international community."

You quote the man who led the fight of terroism for over 30 yrs??...Whose Al-Asqa Matyrs Brigades were responsible for the deaths of innocents for decades?..sorry...but it's empty words from a man who brought terrorism into the mainstream.

I don't see muslim imans in the middle east on any widespread forum.

How often do you see Imans in the Middle East on national TV anyway??

Do you see any condoning the violence? I don't see any Native American Chiefs decrying terrrorism. I therefore conclude that every single Native American, including you Salishe, supports terrorism.

But I guess, since we have no way of polling/judging the people of these countries without being there... I guess we can only hope...I posted a link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,661807,00.html) a few weeks ago about "the first ever opinion poll in Muslim countries". It only asked about 9/11 in particular.....geee... unless I'm really blind, those numbers seem to support my fears...

Ok, I think that you ARE really blind. If you actually READ the entire piece, the key question of whether or not the people asked in the Muslim nations involved in the poll, the results were, and I quote :

"A more encouraging finding, however, is that a large majority disapproved of the attacks. Overall, 67% thought they were not "morally justifiable", and only 15% thought they were."

The MAJORITY is AGAINST. Furthermore, if you read the last portion of the article, it says the following :

"As with any poll, a lot of skill is needed to interpret the results, and some of Gallup's findings have been reported in ways that could be misleading. Strictly speaking, this was not a poll of "Muslim" opinion because interviewees were not selected on the basis of their religion. In Lebanon, for example, the results included views from the large Christian minority.

Also, although the interviewees were residents of the countries concerned, they were not necessarily citizens. In Kuwait, about 55% of the residents are foreigners, so the poll cannot be said to reflect the views of "Kuwaitis".

The "overall" results for the nine countries should also be treated with caution. They are an average of the findings from each country, without adjustments to take account of population differences. So tiny Lebanon (population 3.6 million) carries as much weight in the overall figure as Indonesia (population 228 million).

It would also be unwise to draw too many conclusions about "Arab" public opinion from the five Arab countries included in the survey. Their total population is around 37 million but Egypt - a major country that was not included - has almost twice as many people as that."

Therefore, leading to the conclusion that the negative results found in the poll DO NOT reflect Arab opinion.

Before you go jumping to conclusions, read the entire piece first, Raysia

I don't see muslim imans in the middle east on any widespread forum.

How often do you see Imans in the Middle East??

Exactly, why would the Imams in the Arab world be appearing on the US news channels? You are expecting a bit much there. Do you think if Muslims were killed by Christian fanatics (seen in Nigeria recently) the US priests would be making statements of condemnation on Arab TV?

http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20031121/feat6en.htm

might help.. :)

Everything in this thread has been about what I expected... "Blah Blah Blah U.S. Bad!" Screw all that for a minute. For just a moment, foret imperialism, forget Israel, forget all this petty crap, and listen.

Fear. Everyday, we live with fear in the U.S., fear of a new terrorist attack. The fear we feel pales in comparison to the outright terror that people in the Middle East feel. A person seen being pro-Western, or supporting the West can expect to be dead, along with his family, within a few weeks. We're seeing this in Iraq now, violence not just against foreigners, but against anyone working with the Americans. I've touched on this issue before, look to Germany. After WWII, Nazi guerillas struck against the allies and people working with the allies. No one spoke out against them, just as no one spoke out against the Nazis during the peak of the war and their power. Why? Terror. When an innocently voiced opinion in opposition to extremists is likely to get you killed, the opinions don't get voiced.

I thought you were going somewhere interesting with this, but it sorta fizzled. In face im not even sure it makes sense. Its the Same in the U.S. If you say something unpopular enough, your house could be firebombed by some Redneck Hick. You need to make the Distinction between public and private figures. Its not as If they are Animals over there. But there are Flashpan areas.

People often forget an important fact about Islam: it's a relatively young religion. It started somewhere in the 7th century CE, and if we assume that all large religions go through about the same stages of development, the Islam is right now where Christianity was during the Crusades, and that wasn't pretty.

This is of course only theory, but it might help to explain partly why there are so many violent fundamentalists. Add the fact that most people in the Middle East live in poverty and are basically raised surrounded by violence, and it becomes even clearer.

Of course all Middle Eastern Muslims don't support terrorists, but it isn't that hard to understand why there are so many that turn to violence.

Its got nothing to do with it. Islam May be younger. But when you measure its age in centuries it really makes little difference. Its a good point but too simplistic. Islam has been around just like all the other religions and it has been changing along with circumstances like all the others. The problem is that Unlike Christianity and to a lesser extent Judaism. They never had a reformation, they never had a cultural deconstruction, the seperation of the religous culture and the Social Culture. Its decentralised structure probably helps to reinforce this. It changes Cosmetically but Fundamentally it doesnt. Just like P2P. You can make it more efficient to deal with the circumstances it finds itself in, but not the Basic way it works.

I don't see muslim imans in the middle east on any widespread forum.

How often do you see Imans in the Middle East on national TV anyway??

Do you see any condoning the violence? I don't see any Native American Chiefs decrying terrrorism. I therefore conclude that every single Native American, including you Salishe, supports terrorism.

You have got to be kidding me...to try to turn this around on me?...As for how often...I saw them all the time from Aghanistan..and don't you think that if they wanted to get out the message that those who killed Danny Pearl, Berg, the 4 contractors in fallujah...ad nauseum didn't represent Islam...don't you think they'd WANT their message to get out for the masses...and even from local sources I just have not heard widespread condemnation from the Arab muslim world..and certainly not from the very men who head their religous schools.

Edit: In contrast...I see the various Christian denominations from the Pope on down asking for forgiveness for past sins and that was over 50 yrs ago....and I've looked on Arab sources..I have truly tried to be objective, not one major head of their religous schools of thought, certainly not in Saudi Arabia, the "home" of Islam has brought criticism of any form of terrorist acts.

For one thing. Whats headline news in one culture, may not be in another.
And anyway, unlike in our culture Maybe it goes without Saying in theres.
I can certainly understand it. All these Idiot politicians and public figures stating the obvious. Its so annoying.

http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20031121/feat6en.htm

might help.. :)

Salishe, did you even look at this link?

You have got to be kidding me...to try to turn this around on me?

Of course not, it was sarcasm, showing the hipocracy of your and others statements. You claim that as you have seen no Imans decrying terrorist actions (obviously ignored the link), it must mean they condone it. I am saying exactly the same the same thing, merley swapping Iman for a NA Chief. Showing you (I hoped) how silly a statement that was.

If Muslims will excommunicate Jihadists, would the US strip the citizenship of those soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners and turn them over to a Muslim court or The Hague?

You have got to be kidding me...to try to turn this around on me?

Of course not, it was sarcasm, showing the hipocracy of your and others statements. You claim that as you have seen no Imans decrying terrorist actions (obviously ignored the link), it must mean they condone it. I am saying exactly the same the same thing, merley swapping Iman for a NA Chief. Showing you (I hoped) how silly a statement that was.

Silly?...I get constantly told by muslims here in the States, and from scattered emails from abroad in Europe..that these jihadists don't represent Islam..fine...I get that..but they are still essentially Western and moderate...I want those who sit in the cat's seat of Islam to tell me that they do not represent them..And am I wrong to expect that?...I think not..I don't think it's that much to expect them to come down on people who've hijacked their faith is that is truly the case now is it?

And when AIM took over Wounded Knee in the 70's there were lots of tribal chieftains who disagreed openly the position they took....fyi I am a member of AIM....and I disagreed openly with the membership then who took that action.

Have you not been readin whats in this thread?

If Muslims will excommunicate Jihadists, would the US strip the citizenship of those soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners and turn them over to a Muslim court or The Hague?

One has nothing to do with the other....and for you to bring out a strawman argument like that is weak. They are being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice which has the authority over US military personnel at least in the American military we can expect justice to prevail...if this was a member of Saddam's army as it had been previously they would have been given a medal and a promotion....but no one is mentioning that little tidbit.

If Muslims will excommunicate Jihadists, would the US strip the citizenship of those soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners and turn them over to a Muslim court or The Hague?

One has nothing to do with the other....and for you to bring out a strawman argument like that is weak. They are being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice which has the authority over US military personnel at least in the American military we can expect justice to prevail...if this was a member of Saddam's army as it had been previously they would have been given a medal and a promotion....but no one is mentioning that little tidbit.

Who's justice? Mine? Yours? Bush's?

If Muslims will excommunicate Jihadists, would the US strip the citizenship of those soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners and turn them over to a Muslim court or The Hague?

One has nothing to do with the other....and for you to bring out a strawman argument like that is weak. They are being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice which has the authority over US military personnel at least in the American military we can expect justice to prevail...if this was a member of Saddam's army as it had been previously they would have been given a medal and a promotion....but no one is mentioning that little tidbit.

Who's justice? Mine? Yours? Bush's?

Justice as in accordance with respect for the Law...a Law which has governed US military for over a century and worked just fine.

Justice as in accordance with respect for the Law...a Law which has governed US military for over a century and worked just fine.

Just fine for who? To the best interests of the US? Or to the best interests of those who suffer?

Lets hear that link once more for all those who missed it the first two times...... *cough... Salishe... cough*


http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20031121/feat6en.htm

Lets hear that link once more for all those who missed it the first two times...... *cough... Salishe... cough*


http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20031121/feat6en.htm

I wish I had seen it...but thank you for that link...it does go a way with Americans to learn of things like this..unfortunately it's not as widespread as I think most Americans need to see in order to believe it.

Justice as in accordance with respect for the Law...a Law which has governed US military for over a century and worked just fine.

Just fine for who? To the best interests of the US? Or to the best interests of those who suffer?

Has nothing to do with interests..these men committed a crime for which they will be charged, tried, and if guilty of any crime, convicted with proper evidence and sentenced accordingly.....Where are the men who killed Danny Pearl?..Do we send those who killed Andrew Berg to the Hague with so brutal an act...an act that his mother would have to watch over and over? To whom does she go to for Justice?

Justice as in accordance with respect for the Law...a Law which has governed US military for over a century and worked just fine.

Just fine for who? To the best interests of the US? Or to the best interests of those who suffer?

Has nothing to do with interests..these men committed a crime for which they will be charged, tried, and if guilty of any crime, convicted with proper evidence and sentenced accordingly.....Where are the men who killed Danny Pearl?..Do we send those who killed Andrew Berg to the Hague with so brutal an act...an act that his mother would have to watch over and over? To whom does she go to for Justice?
The US Pentagon, apparently.

I want those who sit in the cat's seat of Islam to tell me that they do not represent them..
Click the bloody link and read. (http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20031121/feat6en.htm)

Did you ever think that the other Arab nations (like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Tunisia, Behran, Qatar, Turkey, etc.) who are also dealing with significant terrorism never say "Oh shoot, having radical Islaamics blowing themselves up all over our countryside is kind of a bad thing." Sure they do.

Do you hear about it though?

I'm coming upon some weird understandings about our media today. The nastiness in Iraq, though not a good thing, is way overblown by the media. The Iraqi people love us, or at least the majority of them. Sure there are one or two towns uprising, but couldn't you say that about ANY of the third world democracies?

I know some Islaamics. They aren't thrilled about 9/11, they don't like how their religion is protrayed by these nutsos, just like the average Christian is not about to be protrayed by the KKK or other radical sects. They speak out. You just don't hear them man. Hope my opinions either made you think to prove me wrong or helped you make a conclusion for yourself.

One must assume that the Mormoms by now have spoken out against prisoner abuse/torture in Iraq.

Justice as in accordance with respect for the Law...a Law which has governed US military for over a century and worked just fine.

Just fine for who? To the best interests of the US? Or to the best interests of those who suffer?

Has nothing to do with interests..these men committed a crime for which they will be charged, tried, and if guilty of any crime, convicted with proper evidence and sentenced accordingly.....Where are the men who killed Danny Pearl?..Do we send those who killed Andrew Berg to the Hague with so brutal an act...an act that his mother would have to watch over and over? To whom does she go to for Justice?
The US Pentagon, apparently.

Ahmm..no..the Pentagon didn't brutally hack at this man's head..I want the 6 masked (coward's all) men who appeared in that video at the very least..and then the man who ordered the murder, tell you what..if the local iman would just go out on Iraqi radio/television and demand that these men show up at the local Iraqi police station it would convince me they mean what they say bout Islam being hijacked..

Not having read through the whole thread, I would like to make one observation.

1) People want to see "real Middle eastern Muslims" denouncing terroristm.

2) Most of us here are not fluent in Arabic, ergo the only things we can show generally are those westernized media outlets that have translated things nicely for you.


It is rather dificult to reconcile those two items.

Fact is, most media outlets have stated that the average Muslim found this action abhorent and against Islam. Then they find a couple of people who were for it and quote them as well.

Are we getting balanced reporting on the issue? Who knows.

But I'll add a link from Lebannon - a country where anything pro-american is still hard to find due to the ongoing issues with Israel - to the list that denounced the execution of Berg.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&article_id=3505&categ_id=17

-Z-

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=863474
http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001705.html#001705
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1107098.htm
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=80090
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-03/13/article12.shtml
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=49341
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=112408
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=49756
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-10/16/article02.shtml
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=31365
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1162
http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20010921/feat1en.htm
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=65
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=67
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=63
http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=9698&c=27
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/amislam/intifadah.htm

Now I realize that many could easily find as many sites proclaiming that Muslims justify terrorist actions, but the question put forth was to provide llinks of Muslims denouncing terrorism.
Now, in at least a couple of links there are mention of some Muslims justifying the beheading of Berg, but in the same article one will find, if they read objectively, Muslims decrying it. It'll be interesting to see who misses that point. I would also point out that even within this board there are those who call out for the torture and execution of Muslims in general. I hardly take that to mean that every person on this board believes this tripe, even though very few people have spoken out against them. Also, as pointed out by a few others, there are elements of Christianity that are hardline, and extremist in nature. The KKK, the Mountain Militamen, Militant pro-life organizations, which do carry out attacks against perceived non-Christians, or perceived threats to Christian values on a daily basis throughout the world (incl the US), and the reality is, that we barely hear about them at all without in depth research. They often get relegated to a small newspaper article on page 12 of the local paper, and are subsequently forgotten about, unless they are of an extreme nature (ie, the killing of James Byrd Jr.). Mostly the Christian churches distant themselves from the radical elements within their faiths by trying to ignore them, and not talk about them at all. Hell, the KKK is a good example, in that many Christians don't even know that they are a Christian fundamentalist group. My point being that Western Christians distance themselves from these elements, by ignoring (or trying to) them, or ignoring the links to their own faith.

Finally, I would bet pretty highly that most people here have never been to the middle east ever, and yet claim to know what the majority of Middle Eastern Muslims think, or believe, to the point of denouncing the entire faith. I admit the I, myself have never been to the Middle East, however, my wife has traveled the Middle East extensively, from Syria, to Iraq, Iran, Turkey, etc... and has many stories. The thing that is most prevalent in what she does say, is that the vast majority of people she talked to, and stayed with on a daily basis were wonderful people just trying to live from one day to the next in difficult situations. (NOTE: she was not one to stay at Egypt's holiday Hilton, but rather get down into the streets with the everyday person, adopting their clothing, and eating the same food, staying at the homes of people renting out a piece of floor). This is not to say that she did not run into anybody who was not critical of the West (found many of those), but that she was treated with respect, and had no trouble finding people enthusiastic with sharing their way of life.

In short, lets not condemn an entire people based upon the actions of a few fundamentalists.

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

While Islam may not have the heirarchy that Christianity has..they do nonetheless have very noticeable Imans of great spiritual importance..I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said.."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah" and allow that audience to be seen on local Arab and Western media/radio it'd go a long way toward lessening the image in the West that all Muslims by their silence or lack of vocal animosity agree with the terrorists.

One or two won't cut it...constant exposure by the religous schools who teach Wahabbism (the very violent branch of Islam) must go on record as being opposed to such actions as the beheading..

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

While Islam may not have the heirarchy that Christianity has..they do nonetheless have very noticeable Imans of great spiritual importance..I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said.."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah" and allow that audience to be seen on local Arab and Western media/radio it'd go a long way toward lessening the image in the West that all Muslims by their silence or lack of vocal animosity agree with the terrorists.

One or two won't cut it...constant exposure by the religous schools who teach Wahabbism (the very violent branch of Islam) must go on record as being opposed to such actions as the beheading..

Fair points, though as I understand it, most times a call for condemnation goes out to the Muslim world, it is answered. Hell, the condemnation is frequently issued prior to the demand. The likes of Arafat - for all his manifold flaws - have condemned these types of actions in the past and will do so again. Sadly, there are many extremist branches of Islam (of Sunni and Shi'ite roots) that have firebrand imams who won't condemn atrocities like these. The point is, we shouldn't tar all Muslims with the same brush, any more than I should attack all Christians and demand their apologies for the inhumane acts carried out by Christian extremists (Oklahoma bombings, etc). Was a condemnation demanded from the Pope in this circumstance? From protestant leaders?

I don't know, we're so quick to judge Muslims and demand their contrition for acts that are carried out by people almost completely divorced from their own views. It's all so sad.

DP

Thanks for the link Zep, but even ignoring the reiteration of Ted Kennedy's ramblings in that article, I still could not find much to convince me that anyone high up denounced terrorism....

Just because a guy writes an article that calls it shocking, by no means implies the majority agrees... we know that from the states ...let alone the middle east!

It is impossible to really guage their opinions, outside of that poll mentioned earlier (which I did in fact misread... hehehe)

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

While Islam may not have the heirarchy that Christianity has..they do nonetheless have very noticeable Imans of great spiritual importance..I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said.."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah" and allow that audience to be seen on local Arab and Western media/radio it'd go a long way toward lessening the image in the West that all Muslims by their silence or lack of vocal animosity agree with the terrorists.

One or two won't cut it...constant exposure by the religous schools who teach Wahabbism (the very violent branch of Islam) must go on record as being opposed to such actions as the beheading..


Do you know what they preach in the Mosques on this? no. Me either. But you expect them to jump on a soapbox every time an act of terrorism occurs?

Why? Why do you expect all of them to jump on soapboxes to preach to the world and tell their followers that this is wrong every time a Muslim does something wrong?

Did you hear of Chirac, or Schroeder, or anyone else jumping up to tell all Western militaries to remember that abusing prisoners is wrong after the photos came out?

No!

They might have commented on the pictures, but they realize that their job is not to preach self-evident things to their own people that were not commited by their own people.

Remember the Sunni clerics in Falluja reprimanding the citizens for the abuse of the bodies of those four contracters? That was relevent to them leading their flock. If this was indeed the actions of foreign terrorists on Iraqi soil, then these clerics don't have to publicly chide their flocks for those actions. Because it wasn't their flock who participated.


I dunno - and I agree that it would be nice to hear and I agree that it would be helpful to the cause against terrorism.

But I think you put expectations on these men that you don't put on our own leaders.

And one last thing to remember.

These clerics still live where the terrorists are. A denunciation can come at a very high personal risk. The radical element has had no compunction against killing Muslims as well as they believe that non-radicals are not true Muslims and so are also fair targets. Look at the number of Iraqi police killed, the many documented political killings in Afghanistan during the rein of the Taliban, and the constant attacks in Saudi Arabia for proof of that.

Not everybody wants to paint a big bullseye on their backs to satisfy western outrage. To satisfy what you deem "cuts it". I agree that it would be nice though - but I don't think that you can demand it.

-Z-

dp

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

While Islam may not have the heirarchy that Christianity has..they do nonetheless have very noticeable Imans of great spiritual importance..I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said.."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah" and allow that audience to be seen on local Arab and Western media/radio it'd go a long way toward lessening the image in the West that all Muslims by their silence or lack of vocal animosity agree with the terrorists.

One or two won't cut it...constant exposure by the religous schools who teach Wahabbism (the very violent branch of Islam) must go on record as being opposed to such actions as the beheading..

I think the problem is more along the lines that even when Imams do talk to the Western Media, condemning these actions, the problems are tmultifold.
First, often western media doesn't want to hear it, or air it, and when they do, it's a small blip 12 pages back, or at the end of the newcast. An example, here in Ottawa a local Mosque held an open house to the Ottawa community in an attempt to make a stronger connection with the non-Muslim community, and help dispel many of the myths of Islam and answer any questions people might have. It took the Imam several attempts to finally get a single channel (CJOH TV) to air the even, which was a 10 second blurb, at the very end of the local news, and the Ottawa Citizen advertised the event on the last page of the local section of the paper with a 10 line article. In short, if it wasn't Muslims blowing something up, the media didn't want to know about.

Second, even though the mosque went to the trouble to finally pay for flyers, and put them up by hand in local community centers, and on telephone poles, and had those two (albeit small) media spots, very few non-Muslims even bothered to show up. Other then myself, my wife and my 3 children, approxiamately 15 other non-Muslims showed up, and interestingly (not trying to be racist, but perhaps this is relevant), only 2 of the total number of people who showed up were Caucasion.

I realize that this is only one city, however, Ottawa is very liberal as a city, and for the most part, in my opinion only, more tolerant to racially and culturally diverse peoples that many North American cities.

Again, in short, I don't think that the majority of non-Muslim people of North America want to make the step towards understanding, even when it's being offered. I think that the perceived Muslim threat to Christianity as the World's "top" (and I'm using the term very liberallly here) religion has many Westerners scared.

Muslims everywhere are demanded to apologize for every action taken by militant fundamentalists, who often have little to do with Islam or it's teachings at all, and when they do, they are told it's not enough, or worded improperly or not sincere enough. How often would you like the world's entire Muslim community to apologize for the actions of any of it's purported followers, and are Christians willing to do the same thing, every time any Christian performs an immoral or heinous act.

I would think that you Salishe, would be able to look deeper into the issue than to simply brand an entire people by a single brush, given that our collective peoples are routinely painted as nothing more than lazy alcoholics, criminals and filthy savages. Are we then expected to apologize to the world at large, if any of our tribal members performs any actions against the non-aboriginals, and should we as a people be judged as a whole based upon that minority (I could easily refer you to some of the more militant members of the Mohawk Warriors Society)

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

While Islam may not have the heirarchy that Christianity has..they do nonetheless have very noticeable Imans of great spiritual importance..I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said.."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah" and allow that audience to be seen on local Arab and Western media/radio it'd go a long way toward lessening the image in the West that all Muslims by their silence or lack of vocal animosity agree with the terrorists.

One or two won't cut it...constant exposure by the religous schools who teach Wahabbism (the very violent branch of Islam) must go on record as being opposed to such actions as the beheading..

I think the problem is more along the lines that even when Imams do talk to the Western Media, condemning these actions, the problems are tmultifold.
First, often western media doesn't want to hear it, or air it, and when they do, it's a small blip 12 pages back, or at the end of the newcast. An example, here in Ottawa a local Mosque held an open house to the Ottawa community in an attempt to make a stronger connection with the non-Muslim community, and help dispel many of the myths of Islam and answer any questions people might have. It took the Imam several attempts to finally get a single channel (CJOH TV) to air the even, which was a 10 second blurb, at the very end of the local news, and the Ottawa Citizen advertised the event on the last page of the local section of the paper with a 10 line article. In short, if it wasn't Muslims blowing something up, the media didn't want to know about.

Second, even though the mosque went to the trouble to finally pay for flyers, and put them up by hand in local community centers, and on telephone poles, and had those two (albeit small) media spots, very few non-Muslims even bothered to show up. Other then myself, my wife and my 3 children, approxiamately 15 other non-Muslims showed up, and interestingly (not trying to be racist, but perhaps this is relevant), only 2 of the total number of people who showed up were Caucasion.

I realize that this is only one city, however, Ottawa is very liberal as a city, and for the most part, in my opinion only, more tolerant to racially and culturally diverse peoples that many North American cities.

Again, in short, I don't think that the majority of non-Muslim people of North America want to make the step towards understanding, even when it's being offered. I think that the perceived Muslim threat to Christianity as the World's "top" (and I'm using the term very liberallly here) religion has many Westerners scared.

Muslims everywhere are demanded to apologize for every action taken by militant fundamentalists, who often have little to do with Islam or it's teachings at all, and when they do, they are told it's not enough, or worded improperly or not sincere enough. How often would you like the world's entire Muslim community to apologize for the actions of any of it's purported followers, and are Christians willing to do the same thing, every time any Christian performs an immoral or heinous act.

I would think that you Salishe, would be able to look deeper into the issue than to simply brand an entire people by a single brush, given that our collective peoples are routinely painted as nothing more than lazy alcoholics, criminals and filthy savages.

Oh believe me....I don't see every Muslim as a terrorist..on the contrary...despite a annoying habit I have of having a short fuse and making poorly vocalized statements...I truly believe that Muslims as a whole (Sufis come to mind) wish to merely go bout their faith in peace. And I don't expect Muslims to apologize for every event..but rather a constant reiteration not so much for the West...although for many this is what the are looking for..but amongst their own that violence against innocents isn't the way of Allah...right now..their faith has been hijacked by a rather nasty element...that of Wahabbism...a sect of Islam that originated over a century ago in Saudi Arabia and has found fruitful ground in many of the Middle East.

Only with that local iman standing up on his pedestal and saying "This is not what we are about..don't let yourself get hoodwinked by these people, Allah does not stand with them"...yes it's a risk...yes..even a physical risk, but it's the only way it's going to work....

Just like the Indian tribes were made to shorn their long hair, have our traditional chiefs replaced by an "elected Principal Chief and tribal council" in order to downplay the religous connections we had to our way of life so too must the Muslims with their system....they must force out the Wahabbist..force them from their religous schools..from their midst..it's the only way it's going to work.

Islam is not like the Catholic church, it has no figurehead to make proclamations on behalf of all members of the faith. Individuals Muslims and Muslim organisations have condemned acts of terror and barbarity carried out in the name of their religion.

I'm angry that so many non-Muslims in the West make arrogant demands for condemnation from Muslims. They're perfectly capable of issuing their own declarations in this regard without Christians leaping on them every time an act of inhumanity is committed by those who pervert their faith.

While Islam may not have the heirarchy that Christianity has..they do nonetheless have very noticeable Imans of great spiritual importance..I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said.."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah" and allow that audience to be seen on local Arab and Western media/radio it'd go a long way toward lessening the image in the West that all Muslims by their silence or lack of vocal animosity agree with the terrorists.

One or two won't cut it...constant exposure by the religous schools who teach Wahabbism (the very violent branch of Islam) must go on record as being opposed to such actions as the beheading..

I think the problem is more along the lines that even when Imams do talk to the Western Media, condemning these actions, the problems are tmultifold.
First, often western media doesn't want to hear it, or air it, and when they do, it's a small blip 12 pages back, or at the end of the newcast. An example, here in Ottawa a local Mosque held an open house to the Ottawa community in an attempt to make a stronger connection with the non-Muslim community, and help dispel many of the myths of Islam and answer any questions people might have. It took the Imam several attempts to finally get a single channel (CJOH TV) to air the even, which was a 10 second blurb, at the very end of the local news, and the Ottawa Citizen advertised the event on the last page of the local section of the paper with a 10 line article. In short, if it wasn't Muslims blowing something up, the media didn't want to know about.

Second, even though the mosque went to the trouble to finally pay for flyers, and put them up by hand in local community centers, and on telephone poles, and had those two (albeit small) media spots, very few non-Muslims even bothered to show up. Other then myself, my wife and my 3 children, approxiamately 15 other non-Muslims showed up, and interestingly (not trying to be racist, but perhaps this is relevant), only 2 of the total number of people who showed up were Caucasion.

I realize that this is only one city, however, Ottawa is very liberal as a city, and for the most part, in my opinion only, more tolerant to racially and culturally diverse peoples that many North American cities.

Again, in short, I don't think that the majority of non-Muslim people of North America want to make the step towards understanding, even when it's being offered. I think that the perceived Muslim threat to Christianity as the World's "top" (and I'm using the term very liberallly here) religion has many Westerners scared.

Muslims everywhere are demanded to apologize for every action taken by militant fundamentalists, who often have little to do with Islam or it's teachings at all, and when they do, they are told it's not enough, or worded improperly or not sincere enough. How often would you like the world's entire Muslim community to apologize for the actions of any of it's purported followers, and are Christians willing to do the same thing, every time any Christian performs an immoral or heinous act.

I would think that you Salishe, would be able to look deeper into the issue than to simply brand an entire people by a single brush, given that our collective peoples are routinely painted as nothing more than lazy alcoholics, criminals and filthy savages.

Oh believe me....I don't see every Muslim as a terrorist..on the contrary...despite a annoying habit I have of having a short fuse and making poorly vocalized statements...I truly believe that Muslims as a whole (Sufis come to mind) wish to merely go bout their faith in peace. And I don't expect Muslims to apologize for every event..but rather a constant reiteration not so much for the West...although for many this is what the are looking for..but amongst their own that violence against innocents isn't the way of Allah...right now..their faith has been hijacked by a rather nasty element...that of Wahabbism...a sect of Islam that originated over a century ago in Saudi Arabia and has found fruitful ground in many of the Middle East.

Only with that local iman standing up on his pedestal and saying "This is not what we are about..don't let yourself get hoodwinked by these people, Allah does not stand with them"...yes it's a risk...yes..even a physical risk, but it's the only way it's going to work....

Just like the Indian tribes were made to shorn their long hair, have our traditional chiefs replaced by an "elected Principal Chief and tribal council" in order to downplay the religous connections we had to our way of life so too must the Muslims with their system....they must force out the Wahabbist..force them from their religous schools..from their midst..it's the only way it's going to work.

Sorry Salishe, but not all of us have shorn our hair. Asking Imams to apologize for the actions of differents sects, just to placate you and your fears, is a bit arrogant to say the very least. I don't expect my cheif to apologize for the actions of the Mohawk warrior society, and neither will I to anybody. That does not mean that I condone each and every action they take. They do not speak for me, or anything about me, regardless of what the rest of North America chooses to believe. They are their own entity, and operate within their own moral framework. Painting all Aboriginals with the brush that they have chosen is an immature, knee jerk reation based solely on fear, and does nothing but drive a wider wedge between our people, and the non aboriginal society. The same can be said of Islam, where muslims everywhere are asked, hell demanded to apoligize for every action commited by anything even remotely viewed as Muslim extremism, regardless of who perpetuated the act, and why (ie: extreme actions carried out by Muslims, for a non religious cause, can not be attributed to Islam, although they routinely are. As an example, if a Muslim man commits a crime, his action is often attributed to all of Islam, even though it was an individual act.)

Demanding this perpetual conciliation by the world's Muslims, for every perceived action by an Islamic individual, or group, only serves to breed anger and distrust, instead of peace and understanding.

Salishe and RMT,

I just want to remind you of one little fact.

When the prison photos came out - did the President and top brass (and even you Salishe) jump on soapboxes and preach to the country to remind them that this was not the way to do things?

No.

They (and you Salishe) got up and stated that while they deplored these actions they did not represent the values of the USA or of the US armed forces as a whole, and indicated that the problem would be investigated and dealt with. They did this knowing that the forces have been under a critical microscope for a while, and so they did what they needed to do in the way of damage control.

But what you are asking Muslim's to do under morally similar circumstances?

Not the same thing is it?

Or do you think that the President should get up and blast ALL of the soldiers. Lambaste the whole military to remind them to behave...or else!

I doubt you do think that. And I think you would take exception to other civic leaders doing that very thing - painting the whole military with it. Heck, you took great pains to post threads to defend the average soldier in the face of those photos Salishe.

But the exact rousing diatribe you don't want from our side is exactly what you expect the Mullahs to do.

And this is a case where they can't even add in the caveat that they will deal with the problem. Because they aren't in the business of securing the country (it's your country right now), and they have no control over Al Qaeda.

So they are doing the exact same thing the President did. They are defending themselves against a hostile press. Downplaying it because it truly does not represent the majority, and trying to pass on the mesage that Islam is not meant to be that way.

They don't need to scream that to their followers. Because like the US citizens, the average muslim also knows already that beheading an innocent man is wrong.

Having diferent expectations on how leaders deal with this sort of situation based on how you feel about the action that causes the uproar is rather hypocritical is it not?



I dunno - just trying to put up a diferent angle for you to look at this from .

-Z-

What are you talking about? That WAS the presdient's message! His message was that the abuses were unamerican, and against orders, and flat out not the way we do things... That's good enough for me.

Anyway, the thing is this... me and Salishe have the same problem... we both want to believe, and hope, that the majority of muslims are peaceful, but the problem is, we're just not seeing it... and until we can all see it, we can't really know.

EDIT: OK, more refined question: Why don't Middle-Eastern Muslims speak out?
How is it their problem, exactly? Why should they have to? In what way are they responsible?

What you're saying is a bit like asking the world's Christians to denounce America, or the world's Jews to denounce Israel.

Since when has American policy been the responsibility of Christians? Since when have the excesses of Israel been the responsibility of Jews? Heh, I know that there are plenty of twisted people who would argue that it is. Are you saying that you are like them?

I don't think that Muslims should be forced to regularly issue collective denunciations of al-Qaeda, because that is akin to placing a burden of guilt or responsibility on them. It is simply not their problem. I think the fact that you connect the two so closely speaks volumes.

Zeppistan, the President did "jump on the soapbox", perhaps your biased foreign media chose not to air such things?

Zeppistan, the President did "jump on the soapbox", perhaps your biased foreign media chose not to air such things?
He's Canadian. He gets the same channels, I'm sure.

Well aparently he's had his head in a box for the past two weeks.

EDIT: OK, more refined question: Why don't Middle-Eastern Muslims speak out?
How is it their problem, exactly? Why should they have to? In what way are they responsible?


Wellllll. Mind you it's only talking with the Muslims I have at work so it is a limited view. I always hear about how the Religon is only about Peace. It is not a violent Religion, etc. etc.

And yet you hear "God is Great" whenever the fundis do their thing.

It might help with pigon holing the fanatics if people heard the moderates talk. Kind of hard to do since that will not sell ads on the "news" outlets of the US.

Many people will never read the Qur-an as such they make their own views and unfortunatly they use the idiot box with infotainment news outlets for their information.

Probably one of the best things I saw done for "educating" people about Muslims was done in Great Britan. They did a series of things ranging from talks, information handouts, documentaries....

It said it reduced predudice problems.

That was before 9/11 so I don't know what is going on now.

... me and Salishe have the same problem....
You got that rigth.. :)

Well aparently he's had his head in a box for the past two weeks.

Aparently you didn't read what I said very well. Or maybe I didn't express it well enough.

They (and you Salishe) got up and stated that while they deplored these actions they did not represent the values of the USA or of the US armed forces as a whole, and indicated that the problem would be investigated and dealt with.

I noted very clearly that GW denounced these actions by these individuals.

But I diferentiate that from what Salishe and RMT seem to be asking for. Which are things like:

I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said..".."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah"

Did anyone expect Bush to lecture the American people and the military as a whole telling them not to go out and torture Muslims?

No.

Why?

Because he doesn't HAVE to! We know it is wrong. It would sound rediculous and patronizing if he did lecture to us in that manner. "Hey America! Not only was this wrong - but I want to be very clear that I don't want YOU to go and do this either!"

We didn;t hear that from him nor did we expect that from him.

That is the diference between what we expect of our leaders and what some people seem to expect of Muslim leaders.

Maybe - just maybe - the bulk of Muslims ARE moderates and don't NEED to be told that beheadings are wrong just so you can be happy to hear them say it. Just like we don't need to be told not to go out and torture people.

Because people here certainly pointed out enough links to articles showing how these actions have been condemned by the Muslim world, but some people seem to expect more out of them. Things that we didn't get or expect from GW.


Is that clearer for you?


-Z-

I am sure there are many many Muslims in the Middle East that are opposed to terrorism, but does our Media cover that? Of course not, because they want ratings and they are under the impression that it takes sex, violence and war to get ratings. So until the media pulls it's head out of it's butt we are only gonna see what they tell us which by the way can easily be influenced by a reporter's stance on the issue making faith in our media broadcasters like FOX, NBC, etc. Ineffective.

And yet you hear "God is Great" whenever the fundis do their thing.


YEs, that is a tough thing for many to overcome. But then again people forget that prayer is a much more vocal activity for Muslims. Where we tend to have that moment of silent prayer they have the call from the minaret and group recitation.

I wonder if Tim McVaie said a prayer before he set the timer. Or how many have said a prayer before blowing up an abortion clinic.

These ARE religious fundies. So religion is a part of the act. But equating that to mainstream Islam is like equating fundi Christians to the United Church - it's not a fair comparison.

Problem is - we see both the fundi and mainstream Christians. We are used to diferentiating between them. We don't get to see the moderate muslims as often... so it is an unknown quantity to most.

-Z-

We don't get to see the moderate muslims as often... so it is an unknown quantity to most.
I live in an almost entirely Muslim city district. Everyone is nice. I can walk into a kebab shop and get ham with my pizza. To me, moderate Muslims are the norm. I live among them. Which is why the BS I see on American TV is so hard to swallow, and in my eyes, it is the Americans who end up looking worse for it.

Thanks for the link Zep, but even ignoring the reiteration of Ted Kennedy's ramblings in that article, I still could not find much to convince me that anyone high up denounced terrorism....

Just because a guy writes an article that calls it shocking, by no means implies the majority agrees... we know that from the states ...let alone the middle east!

It is impossible to really guage their opinions, outside of that poll mentioned earlier (which I did in fact misread... hehehe)

God damn. Why dont you just wait A minute while I pull the detailed opinions of everyone living in the developing world outta my ass.
Your great at stringing along trolls raysia

Well aparently he's had his head in a box for the past two weeks.

Aparently you didn't read what I said very well. Or maybe I didn't express it well enough.

They (and you Salishe) got up and stated that while they deplored these actions they did not represent the values of the USA or of the US armed forces as a whole, and indicated that the problem would be investigated and dealt with.

I noted very clearly that GW denounced these actions by these individuals.

But I diferentiate that from what Salishe and RMT seem to be asking for. Which are things like:

I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said..".."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah"

Did anyone expect Bush to lecture the American people and the military as a whole telling them not to go out and torture Muslims?

No.

Why?

Because he doesn't HAVE to! We know it is wrong. It would sound rediculous and patronizing if he did lecture to us in that manner. "Hey America! Not only was this wrong - but I want to be very clear that I don't want YOU to go and do this either!"

We didn;t hear that from him nor did we expect that from him.

That is the diference between what we expect of our leaders and what some people seem to expect of Muslim leaders.

Maybe - just maybe - the bulk of Muslims ARE moderates and don't NEED to be told that beheadings are wrong just so you can be happy to hear them say it. Just like we don't need to be told not to go out and torture people.

Because people here certainly pointed out enough links to articles showing how these actions have been condemned by the Muslim world, but some people seem to expect more out of them. Things that we didn't get or expect from GW.


Is that clearer for you?


-Z-
Salishe has unrealistic expectations, but nothing not to be expected. The words of a prominent Imam are not going to cause these animals to stop killing, but, if Imams and other prominent Muslim figures learned to "play the game", and denounced these actions when they happened, things would be a bit smoother.

I really hadn't been reading Salishe's posts... maybe I should, just to keep track of him. Yeah, Salishe, Televangelists sit on tv every day telling us to love eachother, how many people listen?

I'm only asking this because I don't know, and I want answers...

You always ask, you never know and you always think you have the answers. :roll:

I'm only asking this because I don't know, and I want answers...

You always ask, you never know and you always think you have the answers. :roll:I said I want answers... that implies that I don't know the answers...

for crap's sake, learn the english language... *roll*

It's not just muslims. Many officals in the Chatholic church would not speak out or condem the murders and random slaughter commited by the IRA. Many in the protestant church also refused to condem the action of 'loyalist' terror organisations.
I can't think of a major religion where the murder of inocents is approved of, but many choose to ignore it when it happens.

My two cents.

The problem with 'should' is that it rarely should be used. It is an authoritarian form where a suggestion might work better.

The denunciations are there but they are not widely disseminated. What might be helpful is a more concerted effort to offset the impressions that westerners have been given of Islam.

When I say concerted I include western governments and ALL religious leaders acting in concert to get the message out. The media will follow (they always do). From the inception of the civil rights movement in the USA getting the message out and exploding the misinformation and myths have been key to any progress.

Not everyone will be open to changing their minds and it may well take generations before the damaged relations can be healed. But given the darkness of the void of information some light is preferrable to none. As it stands the information flowing like a torrent is the failings of both sides, not the common interests.

SHL

Well aparently he's had his head in a box for the past two weeks.

Aparently you didn't read what I said very well. Or maybe I didn't express it well enough.

They (and you Salishe) got up and stated that while they deplored these actions they did not represent the values of the USA or of the US armed forces as a whole, and indicated that the problem would be investigated and dealt with.

I noted very clearly that GW denounced these actions by these individuals.

But I diferentiate that from what Salishe and RMT seem to be asking for. Which are things like:

I think it a major iman in each Arab country went on television and said..".."No more will you murder innocents in the name of Allah"

Did anyone expect Bush to lecture the American people and the military as a whole telling them not to go out and torture Muslims?

No.

Why?

Because he doesn't HAVE to! We know it is wrong. It would sound rediculous and patronizing if he did lecture to us in that manner. "Hey America! Not only was this wrong - but I want to be very clear that I don't want YOU to go and do this either!"

We didn;t hear that from him nor did we expect that from him.

That is the diference between what we expect of our leaders and what some people seem to expect of Muslim leaders.

Maybe - just maybe - the bulk of Muslims ARE moderates and don't NEED to be told that beheadings are wrong just so you can be happy to hear them say it. Just like we don't need to be told not to go out and torture people.

Because people here certainly pointed out enough links to articles showing how these actions have been condemned by the Muslim world, but some people seem to expect more out of them. Things that we didn't get or expect from GW.


Is that clearer for you?


-Z-


I don't accept that comparison, for one thing because Islamic extremism and terrorism are far more prevalent than the western equivalent and thus requires a different approach. Whilst torture and other similar debasing procedures may be universally agreed upon as morally wrong, practices such as torture (to a far worse extent than has occurred in Iraq recently) are commonplace in many Islamic countries. Other laws (such as women being stoned to death for committing adultery) are equally barbaric, yet those who practice them claim to be acting in the name of Allah.

There is a clear difference, whilst the majority of Muslim and Americans rightly see such actions as torture and terrorism as abhorrent, the element of Islam which condones and even practices them is far larger, far louder and far more active than the American equivalent. Thus I feel when speaking out, they should speak more generally about Islam since in their case, the criticisms are less widely accepted than they ought to be.

Here's an interesting link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3713625.stm

Perhaps they are speaking out against terror...

Iraqis condemning,
http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/world_full_story.asp?service_id=635

Hezbollah and Hamas condemning (not the staunchest pro-americans out there),
http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/Region2.asp?ArticleID=120968

The Saudis, Jordanians and UAEs condemning,
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,4386,250868,00.html?

Just bunch of arabs and islamic people condemning it, BUT...
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,4386,250797,00.html?


The last bunch I find the sincerest. Looks like they are mostly condemning it cos "We were winning international sympathy because of what happened at Abu Ghraib, but they come and waste it all"
Kinda remainds me of Rummies apologies.

They all seem to agree it was totally un-islamic act.

go figure

I'm only asking this because I don't know, and I want answers...

You always ask, you never know and you always think you have the answers. :roll:I said I want answers... that implies that I don't know the answers...

for crap's sake, learn the english language... *roll*

A typical question from you:
"Why do muslims practice human-sacrifice? I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, but I would really understand why they do it and why they all blow themselves up on buses."

Usually I find that when you get answers it turns out that you have in fact "researched" the matter and formed an opinion before you asked the question...