NationStates Jolt Archive

Why does everyone make such a big deal over religion?

You see events and situations all over the modern-day world that all stem from the single cause of Religious conflicts, such as the Palestine-Israeli one. Why can't people just all realize that religion should have no say in things unrelated to religion itself, and let it alone for those who bellieve in it, and stop classifying anyone in opposition to one's self as a heathen enemy?

Because there's no proof that without religion these same wars wouldn't have erupted anyway. In fact, the Middle-East conflicts are less and less about religion and more and more about tribal vengence and land grabs.

If schmuck A wanted to kill schmuck B, he'd always find a reason to justify it. Religion is just a convenient excuse.

Two words: The Crusades.

As historical texts put it, the Crusades were caused to try to 'unite' the two split branches of Christianity, and used war to 'reclaim' the 'Holy Land' as an excuse to travel from Western Europe to modern-day Turkey, then into the Middle East.

Therein lies the roots of the present day conflict, because of the seeds of conflict already planted.

Two words: The Crusades.

As historical texts put it, the Crusades were caused to try to 'unite' the two split branches of Christianity, and used war to 'reclaim' the 'Holy Land' as an excuse to travel from Western Europe to modern-day Turkey, then into the Middle East.

Therein lies the roots of the present day conflict, because of the seeds of conflict already planted.

Ha! I can do better than that.

One word: So?

Two letters and a roman numeral: WWI.

The same two letters and another roman numeral: WWII.

I could go on...

Look, I'm not saying that evil things haven't been done in the name of religion, because it's an obvious fact. However, evil things have been done that have nothing to do with religion as well and there's no reason to believe that without religion, we would be any more peaceful.

Two words: The Crusades.

As historical texts put it, the Crusades were caused to try to 'unite' the two split branches of Christianity, and used war to 'reclaim' the 'Holy Land' as an excuse to travel from Western Europe to modern-day Turkey, then into the Middle East.

Therein lies the roots of the present day conflict, because of the seeds of conflict already planted.

Which historical sources exactly? It is just that I have been studying history too long not to take "historical sources" at face value. Especially during this time period.

For example, I can use two historical sources (the Chronicle of Thomas Walsingham and the Chronicle of the Monk of Avesbury) to prove that the 1381 revolt was caused by Fransican monks. However these two sources were written by Benedictine monks whose historical love for Fransicans is well known. Similarly I can use the Knighton chronicle to 'prove' that the peasants revolted because they were evil and had no respect for their "natural masters."

btw how did the Sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders help reunite the two churches?
Aren't the Crusades now more commonly interpreted as the Pope asserting and trying to extend his power and influence? As well as allow the Europeans to access the lucrative trade routes.

You can prove me wrong by all means, the Eastern Crusades aren't my speciality. But please give the a) the sources and b) mention when they were written in relation to the events that they are describing.

You can prove me wrong by all means, the Eastern Crusades aren't my speciality. But please give the a) the sources and b) mention when they were written in relation to the events that they are describing.

yes master

You can prove me wrong by all means, the Eastern Crusades aren't my speciality. But please give the a) the sources and b) mention when they were written in relation to the events that they are describing.

yes master

Sorry, it just feels good to tell people what has been consistently said to me for the past 5 or so years of my life :D The difference being that he/she is not being graded on coursework etc.

hahaha
yeah i know what you mean.
but you still get a C- on that post!

Religion can be the backbone of a people..it tends to shore up your philosophies and ethics and on occassion your ability to wage war. Take for example...Pontiac's Rebellion in the Indian Territory, a Shawnee warrior and his brother revered as a prophet led the rebellion with the prophecy that only by uniting the tribes like the new USofA could they fend off the whites...Take the example of the Sioux and their prophecy of the Ghost Dance, once done their warriors would be made invincible to the bullets of the white soliders...other examples are found in Native American lore.....my people's faith and it's beginnings are shrouded in the mists of time..ancient..a bedrock of ages so to speak..it guides us, molds us, reminds us of whom we are and were we came from..and hopefully where we will go.

damn server

damn server

damn server

oh hell..if the server was a human...he'd be one dead server

why do people insist on attacking the poor people who are driven to religion through society's failures? religion is the tragic result of a world that doesn't give people what they need to be fulfilled and happy, and the end product of raising children who have neither the strength nor the desire to move beyond parental-figure-based morality. most religious peopel simply are part of the faith they were born into, so they never really had a chance...they were just raised to believe a certain set of things, and it takes a very special sort to break free of entrenched beliefs like that.

why do people insist on attacking the poor people who are driven to religion through society's failures? religion is the tragic result of a world that doesn't give people what they need to be fulfilled and happy, and the end product of raising children who have neither the strength nor the desire to move beyond parental-figure-based morality. most religious peopel simply are part of the faith they were born into, so they never really had a chance...they were just raised to believe a certain set of things, and it takes a very special sort to break free of entrenched beliefs like that.

That's what I love about you, Bottle, a defence and an attack all wrapped up in one neat little package. :D

why do people insist on attacking the poor people who are driven to religion through society's failures? religion is the tragic result of a world that doesn't give people what they need to be fulfilled and happy, and the end product of raising children who have neither the strength nor the desire to move beyond parental-figure-based morality. most religious peopel simply are part of the faith they were born into, so they never really had a chance...they were just raised to believe a certain set of things, and it takes a very special sort to break free of entrenched beliefs like that.

That's what I love about you, Bottle, a defence and an attack all wrapped up in one neat little package. :D

:wink: glad somebody appreciated that.

why do people insist on attacking the poor people who are driven to religion through society's failures? religion is the tragic result of a world that doesn't give people what they need to be fulfilled and happy, and the end product of raising children who have neither the strength nor the desire to move beyond parental-figure-based morality. most religious peopel simply are part of the faith they were born into, so they never really had a chance...they were just raised to believe a certain set of things, and it takes a very special sort to break free of entrenched beliefs like that.

That's what I love about you, Bottle, a defence and an attack all wrapped up in one neat little package. :D

:wink: glad somebody appreciated that.

we all appreciate you in some some way bottle. :)

why do people insist on attacking the poor people who are driven to religion through society's failures? religion is the tragic result of a world that doesn't give people what they need to be fulfilled and happy, and the end product of raising children who have neither the strength nor the desire to move beyond parental-figure-based morality. most religious peopel simply are part of the faith they were born into, so they never really had a chance...they were just raised to believe a certain set of things, and it takes a very special sort to break free of entrenched beliefs like that.

*blinking at the screen*
i cant decide where to start with a post so wrong headed
society doesnt drive people to religion.
even people at the top of society are religious
many people find the faith they were raised in to be just fine
most people who end up religious as adults have in fact thought about their religious beliefs otherwise they end up not going to church at all.

we are "hard wired" to be religious. we arent driven to it by outside forces.

*still chuckling over the dead server and wondering if anyone has a slower connection than mine, 21.6kbps*

Viva La Bottle! I don't agree with her...but I don't hate her. And really, in today's world, what more can you ask for? :lol:

Hm. You should all take my course on Conflict Management, which discusses identity factors and interest factors in a conflict. Religion is an identity factor.

Basically, humans are social beings, and they need social connections to survive. They also need a stable worldview, and an idea of where they stand in the great sceheme of things. Without these, people experience extreme uncertainty and terror.

Identity is made up of one's social connections, worldview and understanding of place. Religion provides all of these things, which is why it's so important to so many people. The problem is that, while religion can be good in that it helps maintain social cohesiveness and a common sense of purpose, it can also be bad if it's used to get the religious group to further someone else's interests - and if religion or something connected with it is threatened, then the identity is threatened, people get scared, and they retaliate.

So religion's not stupid, really, it's a way of providing the framework through which one perceives the world. There are some people who would do anything - kill or die - rather than lose the basis upon which they organize their thoughts about themselves and everything around them.

I'm afraid I haven't put it as well as other social scientists have, but that's the gist of it.

Hm. You should all take my course on Conflict Management, which discusses identity factors and interest factors in a conflict. Religion is an identity factor.

Basically, humans are social beings, and they need social connections to survive. They also need a stable worldview, and an idea of where they stand in the great sceheme of things. Without these, people experience extreme uncertainty and terror.

Identity is made up of one's social connections, worldview and understanding of place. Religion provides all of these things, which is why it's so important to so many people. The problem is that, while religion can be good in that it helps maintain social cohesiveness and a common sense of purpose, it can also be bad if it's used to get the religious group to further someone else's interests - and if religion or something connected with it is threatened, then the identity is threatened, people get scared, and they retaliate.

So religion's not stupid, really, it's a way of providing the framework through which one perceives the world. There are some people who would do anything - kill or die - rather than lose the basis upon which they organize their thoughts about themselves and everything around them.

I'm afraid I haven't put it as well as other social scientists have, but that's the gist of it.

Dude, if you think we need conflict managment after this unflaming thread, just stick around.

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

why do people insist on attacking the poor people who are driven to religion through society's failures? religion is the tragic result of a world that doesn't give people what they need to be fulfilled and happy, and the end product of raising children who have neither the strength nor the desire to move beyond parental-figure-based morality. most religious peopel simply are part of the faith they were born into, so they never really had a chance...they were just raised to believe a certain set of things, and it takes a very special sort to break free of entrenched beliefs like that.

*blinking at the screen*
i cant decide where to start with a post so wrong headed
society doesnt drive people to religion.
even people at the top of society are religious
many people find the faith they were raised in to be just fine
most people who end up religious as adults have in fact thought about their religious beliefs otherwise they end up not going to church at all.

we are "hard wired" to be religious. we arent driven to it by outside forces.

*still chuckling over the dead server and wondering if anyone has a slower connection than mine, 21.6kbps*

90% of people studied across 14 countries (including the US and Canada) say they still attend the same denomination as their parents raised them to. so all these people believe that they just happened, by lucky chance, to be born into the "true" religion? they must not have thought very hard, then.

and as for humans being hardwired for religion, no such conclusion has been reached by any psychological or medical study to date. we are hardwired for social behavior, and hardwired to like consistency and controlled environments. we are hardwired to like having the feeling of being protected. we are also hardwired to be promiscuous, to steal, to lie, and to experience agressive impulses when we witness a sibling being fed in our presence...all these have been established by testing.

some people submit to instinctive impulses more than others. i'm not saying whether it's wrong or right, and i personally only think it is wrong to submit to those impulses when they interfere with you ability to live your life. i see religious dependence as a sad and harmful habit, but frankly there are more important problems for us to fix first, and i firmly believe that if we can make our own world shine the way it is meant to then people won't need to look toward the afterlife in order to find meaning.

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

Are you referring to religion as in a structured church or spirituality? History shows that mankind has been revering gods in one form or another since he could walk upright so as he could then kneel down and pray.

Viva La Bottle! I don't agree with her...but I don't hate her. And really, in today's world, what more can you ask for? :lol:
indeed...actually, your stance is the one i most like, people who don't agree with me but don't mind chatting and hashing out topics. i get bored around people who agree with me, after a while.

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

Are you referring to religion as in a structured church or spirituality? History shows that mankind has been revering gods in one form or another since he could walk upright so as he could then kneel down and pray.

I don't dispute that at all, in fact I totally agree, because there has been con men since the beginning of time as well.. ;)

It really is a great con, wish I had thought of it.. :lol:

We're not hard-wired for religion - after all, there are atheists. But we are hard-wired for sociality, and religion is a way to create, regulate and boost social behaviors.

We're not hard-wired for religion - after all, there are atheists. But we are hard-wired for sociality, and religion is a way to create, regulate and boost social behaviors.
exactly.

Wow, this site talks about religion a lot (which is awesome, I think)

Religion is a type of life philosophy (kinda like science actually - a way of explaining the underlying concepts of reality). We seem to want a philosophy/meaning to our lives, and religion certainly fulfills that. More power to it!

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

Are you referring to religion as in a structured church or spirituality? History shows that mankind has been revering gods in one form or another since he could walk upright so as he could then kneel down and pray.

I don't dispute that at all, in fact I totally agree, because there has been con men since the beginning of time as well.. ;)

It really is a great con, wish I had thought of it.. :lol:

Ouch! So which is the con, spirituality or the church?

Wow, this site talks about religion a lot (which is awesome, I think)

Religion is a type of life philosophy (kinda like science actually - a way of explaining the underlying concepts of reality). We seem to want a philosophy/meaning to our lives, and religion certainly fulfills that. More power to it!

i don't know about that...not all things that help people find meaning are good. cults sure as hell aren't, yet plenty of people find meaning through them. serial killers find meaning in murder. if you want to argue in support of religion that's probably not the best way to go about it.

um, i dont like to be offensive to believers
but in my mind religion is a kind of superstition, and we are definitely hardwired for belief. everyone has superstitious beliefs, some get codified into religions
thats why all societies have religion
even neanderthal man buried his dead.

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

Are you referring to religion as in a structured church or spirituality? History shows that mankind has been revering gods in one form or another since he could walk upright so as he could then kneel down and pray.

I don't dispute that at all, in fact I totally agree, because there has been con men since the beginning of time as well.. ;)

It really is a great con, wish I had thought of it.. :lol:

There have also been arrogant people around since the dawn of time, and your belief that you are right, even though you cant disprove those you disagree with, puts you firmly in that category.

um, i dont like to be offensive to believers
but in my mind religion is a kind of superstition, and we are definitely hardwired for belief. everyone has superstitious beliefs, some get codified into religions
thats why all societies have religion
even neanderthal man buried his dead.

But he also revered God and most societies we are aware of have some sort of "God" concept. Doesn't that argue that there might be something there? Otherwise, what use is the hardwiring of belief, particularly since it can (and frequently does) get us killed? It wouldn't seem to offer much of a reproductive advantage.

DP

DP

DP

The NS server: Best argument for pure evil I've seen in some time.

um, i dont like to be offensive to believers
but in my mind religion is a kind of superstition, and we are definitely hardwired for belief. everyone has superstitious beliefs

i really hate that misconception. a significant minority of people do NOT have superstition, and i am among them. saying that "everyone has superstitious beliefs" is like saying that "everyone in Sweden is white" simply because the MAJORITY of people in Sweden are white. just because a whole lot of people think or do something doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't change the fact that there are people who are different.

um, i dont like to be offensive to believers
but in my mind religion is a kind of superstition, and we are definitely hardwired for belief. everyone has superstitious beliefs

i really hate that misconception. a significant minority of people do NOT have superstition, and i am among them. saying that "everyone has superstitious beliefs" is like saying that "everyone in Sweden is white" simply because the MAJORITY of people in Sweden are white. just because a whole lot of people think or do something doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't change the fact that there are people who are different.
i think you just dont recognize your superstitious feelings
when you buy a lottery ticket for example ( i buy lottery tickets on occasion) you think there is a chance you can win yet you still go outside when it rains even though there is a much greater chance that you will get struck by lightning than that you will win the lottery.
we take chances, we act on gut feelings, we cross our fingers
all superstitions

um, i dont like to be offensive to believers
but in my mind religion is a kind of superstition, and we are definitely hardwired for belief. everyone has superstitious beliefs

i really hate that misconception. a significant minority of people do NOT have superstition, and i am among them. saying that "everyone has superstitious beliefs" is like saying that "everyone in Sweden is white" simply because the MAJORITY of people in Sweden are white. just because a whole lot of people think or do something doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't change the fact that there are people who are different.
i think you just dont recognize your superstitious feelings
when you buy a lottery ticket for example ( i buy lottery tickets on occasion) you think there is a chance you can win yet you still go outside when it rains even though there is a much greater chance that you will get struck by lightning than that you will win the lottery.
we take chances, we act on gut feelings, we cross our fingers
all superstitions

i don't buy lottery tickets, specifically because i understand the statistical realities of buying them. i have bought one or two before, because i took the time to calculate the stats and actually found them favorable...plus, one was on my 18th birthday, and one was on my 21st, so it was just a silly celebration. i won on my 21st, though only 15 dollars.

taking chances has nothing to do with superstition, incidently. if i bought a lottery ticket because i thought God would help me win, that would be superstition. but playing the odds has nothing to do with religion or spirits or pixies or Gods.

But he also revered God and most societies we are aware of have some sort of "God" concept. Doesn't that argue that there might be something there? Otherwise, what use is the hardwiring of belief, particularly since it can (and frequently does) get us killed? It wouldn't seem to offer much of a reproductive advantage.

the dizzying array of religious beliefs that have existed since we became human argue against there being something there. if there were a supreme being who had some vested interest in our believing a certain way he surely has done a poor job of letting us know.

i think that the whole belief thing is a by product of stuff that does offer a survival advantage. our ability to make connections, whether true or false, helps us to make sense of the world around us and to change it to suit our survival requirements.

But he also revered God and most societies we are aware of have some sort of "God" concept. Doesn't that argue that there might be something there? Otherwise, what use is the hardwiring of belief, particularly since it can (and frequently does) get us killed? It wouldn't seem to offer much of a reproductive advantage.

the dizzying array of religious beliefs that have existed since we became human argue against there being something there. if there were a supreme being who had some vested interest in our believing a certain way he surely has done a poor job of letting us know.

It argues against any one belief being the complete truth, but I don't understand how diversity argues against existance. Can you elaborate on that?


i think that the whole belief thing is a by product of stuff that does offer a survival advantage. our ability to make connections, whether true or false, helps us to make sense of the world around us and to change it to suit our survival requirements.

So we have the ability to modify the world through our belief?

taking chances has nothing to do with superstition, incidently. if i bought a lottery ticket because i thought God would help me win, that would be superstition. but playing the odds has nothing to do with religion or spirits or pixies or Gods.
i guess we all think that OUR superstitious beliefs are rational
im sure i have some that i dont realize have no basis in rational thought and thus are supertitious also
most superstitious belief has nothing to do with god

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

Are you referring to religion as in a structured church or spirituality? History shows that mankind has been revering gods in one form or another since he could walk upright so as he could then kneel down and pray.

I don't dispute that at all, in fact I totally agree, because there has been con men since the beginning of time as well.. ;)

It really is a great con, wish I had thought of it.. :lol:

There have also been arrogant people around since the dawn of time, and your belief that you are right, even though you cant disprove those you disagree with, puts you firmly in that category.

It's like a recipe,

Read one very messed with book (more people have messed with that book then we can count)

add people afraid of dying...

Take a person (Priest, Rabbi, Cleric, whatever)

mix well with three parts superstition

apply common sense....

No God!

If you take the view of certain philosophers and certain authors of science fiction and fantasy books, existence is perception - and gods are ideas given form and power by the belief of mortals.

Of course, this means that if people stop believing in the god, he or she loses power, and if people forget the god entirely, he or she dies.

But that's neither here nor there, is it.

Religion is social conditioning, no more, no less. Some one had to tell some one about it or they wouldn't know. Some people grab onto it for dear life for many different reasons. Others challenge it and usually end up realizing it makes zero sense. That's my opinion any way.

Are you referring to religion as in a structured church or spirituality? History shows that mankind has been revering gods in one form or another since he could walk upright so as he could then kneel down and pray.

I don't dispute that at all, in fact I totally agree, because there has been con men since the beginning of time as well.. ;)

It really is a great con, wish I had thought of it.. :lol:

There have also been arrogant people around since the dawn of time, and your belief that you are right, even though you cant disprove those you disagree with, puts you firmly in that category.

It's like a recipe,

Read one very messed with book (more people have messed with that book then we can count)

add people afraid of dying...

Take a person (Priest, Rabbi, Cleric, whatever)

mix well with three parts superstition

apply common sense....

No God!

No, Stephi, no Christian God, at least as we have come to identify him. You can't claim just because the Bible contains contradictions and odd laws more relevant to 2000 years ago that is a common sense proof of no God.

You may disbelieve religion, but in that case I challenge you to find a suitable alternative for the creation of life. You see, to disbelieve religion leaves you with only one other option, to my knowledge. Evolution, however, is even more ridiculous than religion.

Some Facts To Consider
- The simplest form of life is a virus, and that it not considered to be really alive by most scientists. A virus is composed of 600 proteins, each of which is composed of 400 amino acids. The odds of just ONE protein being formed by chance is about 100^100:1 (100 to the 100th power to 1). And then you have to make 599 more. The odds of 400 amino acids coming together exactly right at the same time are about 10^240:1 (10 raised to the 240th to 1). Now, who is being illogical and superstitious again? Would you believe me if I told you that a tornado hit a junkyard and left behind a working Boeing 707?

-The first law of thermodynamics states that matter can be changed, but neither created nor destroyed. The second law states that over time, although the total amount stays the same, some of this matter transforms into heat energy, and cannot be changed back into matter again. According to evolution, and the Big Bang theory, these scientific LAWS are wrong. Everything has a tendency to grow less perfect and stable over time. This is shown in the human body, the sun, and in many other ways. According to evolution, however, things become more complex and sophisticated. :roll:

-Protozoa are the smallest definite form of life, by which I mean that no one disputes that they are alive. They are all composed of one cell. Metazoa are composed of literally hundreds of cells. There is no bridge between single cell structures and multi-cellular strictures. There are no 2 celled life forms, or 4 celled life forms, or 8, or 16, or 20, or 100 celled life forms. What caused this jump? How is it possible? In short, it isn't.

-The Cambrian Explosion. If evolution was true, then at the bottom of the fossil record would be simple organisms, and it would slowly work up to more complex ones. However, at the Cambrian level, you find single cell structures, along with developed creatures that supposedly should not b there yet. In fact, no fewer than 5,000 species of developed creature simply "appear" in the Cambrian period, with no explanation.

There is more, but I'm afraid I have already written too much. Please forgive my long post, but as this thread ties in so neatly with much of my own research, I felt compelled to reply.

:D This is my first post. Did I do good?

It argues against any one belief being the complete truth, but I don't understand how diversity argues against existance. Can you elaborate on that?

So we have the ability to modify the world through our belief?

if you make me take the time to write this out, you have to promise to read it!

easy one first, its not the belief that helps us modify the world, belief is the byproduct of the thought process that helps us analyze the world and act accordingly. meaning that the same ability to create the scientific understanding that lightning is electricity also ends us up with the ability to believe that lightning is zeus zapping someone who has ticked him off.

now i know that what im really arguing against is the existance of a god who gives a damn about people and their beliefs. but is a god who creates the world then has nothing more to do with it really "god". maybe, but im not gonna spend any time worrying about him.

the myriad of beliefs argues against any true revelation from god. why would a god of 6 billion people only reveal his true desires to a handful? or is he goofing on us giving each group a different message so that we'll meet up and fight over who got the real story?

leave out your own religion... drop christianity out of the equation entirely, drop out judaism since its the father relgion of christianity, then look at the random beliefs of people across the globe and across time. one god, a few gods, many gods, nice gods, mean gods, petty gods, gods so vague that you can hardly call them gods at all. one life or reincarnation. ancestor worship. animism. god loves my country best, no he loves MINE best. im sure im leaving out whole streams of beliefs.
they obviously cant all be literally true even though they speak deeply to the cultures they exist in.

i would have to come to the conclusion that they are all equally made up by someone at some time based on ideas that sprung into their heads in response to things happening in their lives.

life is random and cruel. up until the scientific revolution people had no idea where disease came from, for example, so they made up in their head the idea that it was a kind of punishment from god. now we know more about what causes disease we dont often think of it as a punishment.

horrible things happen to people for no discernable reason. someone gets cancer, only 1 person of 4 in an accident dies while the rest arent even seriously hurt, lightning strikes your house and you lose all your possessions in the fire
we NEED to make sense of these things so we come up with various reasons that god wanted them to happen. the less we understand the workings of the universe the more likely we are to rely on a religious explanation. it gets passed from generation to generation soon its a religion.

*looking frustratedly at the screen* i only type this because you asked for my reasons. i dont think people are stupid for believing. i just dont.

If you take the view of certain philosophers and certain authors of science fiction and fantasy books, existence is perception - and gods are ideas given form and power by the belief of mortals.

Of course, this means that if people stop believing in the god, he or she loses power, and if people forget the god entirely, he or she dies.

But that's neither here nor there, is it.

and this is why you should read the book "american gods" by....Neil Gaiman (had to google it)
thats the theme of the book, the loss of power of old european gods brought to the US by immigrants and what they decided to do to fix it.

If you take the view of certain philosophers and certain authors of science fiction and fantasy books, existence is perception - and gods are ideas given form and power by the belief of mortals.

Of course, this means that if people stop believing in the god, he or she loses power, and if people forget the god entirely, he or she dies.

But that's neither here nor there, is it.

and this is why you should read the book "american gods" by....Neil Gaiman (had to google it)
thats the theme of the book, the loss of power of old european gods brought to the US by immigrants and what they decided to do to fix it.

Not just European gods! There are African and Indian gods too...yeah, I read it. Twice. I've read almost everything Neil Gaiman ever wrote.

The same idea pops up in Sandman, and also in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, particularly in the book Small Gods.

but did you read "good omens" written by both terry pratchet AND neil gaiman?
wicked good book!
it amazes me how both authors can consistantly put out books worth reading, i just wish gaiman wrote more.

:D This is my first post. Did I do good?

good post. long but not tedious

that i have no good explanation for the beginnings of life, the universe and everything (but i do hope it has nothing to do with white mice) doesnt mean that there has to be a GOD who has any knowlege or interest in human existance

not knowing doesnt bother me a bit

suppose that "Someone" started the big bang
does that entity still exist? was it killed inthe bang? is it all knowing, all powerful, all wise? does it know or care about humanity? if it does, does it want to be worshipped? if it wants to be worshipped, just what form of worship does it prefer? and most importantly if it has a preference WHY THE F DOESN'T IT JUST LET EVERYONE KNOW SO WE CAN STOP FIGHTING ABOUT IT?

:D This is my first post. Did I do good?

good post. long but not tedious

that i have no good explanation for the beginnings of life, the universe and everything (but i do hope it has nothing to do with white mice) doesnt mean that there has to be a GOD who has any knowlege or interest in human existance

not knowing doesnt bother me a bit

suppose that "Someone" started the big bang
does that entity still exist? was it killed inthe bang? is it all knowing, all powerful, all wise? does it know or care about humanity? if it does, does it want to be worshipped? if it wants to be worshipped, just what form of worship does it prefer? and most importantly if it has a preference WHY THE F DOESN'T IT JUST LET EVERYONE KNOW SO WE CAN STOP FIGHTING ABOUT IT?

maybe because it doesnt exist in the first place?

and im only still posting because im ticked that berklyvania went to bed while i was typing out my way too long post and now its gonna be buried by the time he gets back on and i wasted the whole damned thing!
*making a face at the screen*

maybe because it doesnt exist in the first place?

ya think?

hehehe

Atheist, if you are going to post something like that, try answering the questions I posed in my post. If you can't then perhaps you need to rethink your stance.

Ash- I believe in the Christian God. However, I have absolutely no problem with someone else believing in a different one. Does this mean I am wrong? Maybe. Or maybe they are wrong. However, I can only take what knowledge I have, offer it to them, and then let them decide for themselves. Fighting over religion is pathetic. I am abosolutely opposed to forcing my will on other people.

However, there are radical christians, as well as radical Muslims, radical Hindus, and radicals for every other religion under the sun (except maybe Buddhism :wink: ). They cannot all be right, this is true. What you must do then, is study them, and decide which one your own study and knowledge leads you to agree with. It is absolutely impossible that we could have come to be without some form of divine interference. Do I wordship the right deity? I think so. But I am also open-minded enough to recognize that I may be wrong. Therefore, I don't bother to argue about it.

I only try to explain my beliefs to a person, so that they know where I am coming from. If they disagree, then fine. They might decide that Ra created the earth, or whatever. The problem is that some people cannot stand to let other people believe differently than them, and people of every type do this, including atheists, many of whom seem to believe that if you belive in a god of some form, then you must be a pathetic, hopeless, ignorant fool. I personally feel like everyone should lay off of other people's beliefs, and simply strengthen their own.

belief comes from a deeper spot than logic does. no one draws up a list of pros and cons then decides to believe or not. of course no one can force belief on another person.
that something cant be scientifically proven doesnt make it wrong.

how one navigates the intricacies of christian belief im not sure. as i read the new testament i see a religion so radical and so demanding that im rather relieved to not "have" to believe it.
i mean there are things in there that are so against common human nature that you really do have to work hard to even come close. "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me" "take everything you have, give it to the poor, and follow me" "how many times do i have to forgive my brother? 7? no, 70 times 7" nothing else is popping into my head but i know they are there, if i believed, id have to do those things. i dont go halfway.

do you takes those commands that come right from the mouth of jesus seriously?

The burden of proof is always on the person to prove that some thing is real and or exists, not on the person who claims there is no proof and says it doesn't exist. Since there is no proof, the burden would fall on the person who claimed it did. Law 101 people.

good thing we dont have laws that require scientific proof for religion
faith that has to be proved isnt faith.

good thing we dont have laws that require scientific proof for religion
faith that has to be proved isnt faith.

Just as long as it's faith, blind faith based on nothing except what people have told other people... no proof.. nadda. Then ya, I'm okay with that.

me too

although i hear that some people have had experiences that proved to them that god exists. *shrug* i figure its some kind of delusion

Why does everyone make such a big deal over religion?

You see events and situations all over the modern-day world that all stem from the single cause of Religious conflicts, such as the Palestine-Israeli one. Why can't people just all realize that religion should have no say in things unrelated to religion itself, and let it alone for those who bellieve in it, and stop classifying anyone in opposition to one's self as a heathen enemy?

palestine and israel really isnt about religion all that much

but did you read "good omens" written by both terry pratchet AND neil gaiman?
wicked good book!
it amazes me how both authors can consistantly put out books worth reading, i just wish gaiman wrote more.

Yep, read that one too. Three times.

Hooray for going off-subject!

taking chances has nothing to do with superstition, incidently. if i bought a lottery ticket because i thought God would help me win, that would be superstition. but playing the odds has nothing to do with religion or spirits or pixies or Gods.
i guess we all think that OUR superstitious beliefs are rational
im sure i have some that i dont realize have no basis in rational thought and thus are supertitious also
most superstitious belief has nothing to do with god
you seem to misunderstand. superstition is an irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. knowing that you are doing something risky doesn't make it superstitious to do so; if i buy a lottery ticket that's not superstition, but if i think that scratching it off in a specific order will make me more likely to win then THAT is superstition.

playing the odds isn't superstition. it may be irrational or unwise, but not all irrational or unwise things are superstition. please learn to use terms correctly before you start telling people what they think or feel.

hmmmmmm
well
if you have calculated the odds of winning the lottery and you still play thinking its a good idea, if its not because you have the superstitious feeling that your luck will give you an edge, the only other explanation is that you are stupid. the odds of winning the lottery are abyssmal. given that im not much of a gambler, i dont see much FUN in the lottery (as there can be in going to a casino for an evening and throwing away a couple hundred dollars). (although i do sometimes enjoy figuring out how i would deal with winning $200million)

i dont think youre stupid. i think that you must be denying that you believe that in those kind of circumstances you would have LUCK. the belief in luck is superstitious.

i dont even really remember what i said yesterday and the server is being so awful that it would take more time than i have right now to look it up

to be human is to be superstitious, its part of what gives us imagination. its what lets us see the possiblities. its part of curiosity. they all go together and you cant have one without the others. its not just believing that if you break a mirror youll have 7 years bad luck. that is not just superstitious, its stupid too.

if we dint sometimes have the superstitious belief in luck, we would never go against the odds to achieve something wonderful. its not a bad thing, its not a stupid thing, its a human thing

hmmmmmm
well
if you have calculated the odds of winning the lottery and you still play thinking its a good idea, if its not because you have the superstitious feeling that your luck will give you an edge, the only other explanation is that you are stupid. the odds of winning the lottery are abyssmal. given that im not much of a gambler, i dont see much FUN in the lottery (as there can be in going to a casino for an evening and throwing away a couple hundred dollars). (although i do sometimes enjoy figuring out how i would deal with winning $200million)

i dont think youre stupid. i think that you must be denying that you believe that in those kind of circumstances you would have LUCK. the belief in luck is superstitious.

i dont even really remember what i said yesterday and the server is being so awful that it would take more time than i have right now to look it up

to be human is to be superstitious, its part of what gives us imagination. its what lets us see the possiblities. its part of curiosity. they all go together and you cant have one without the others. its not just believing that if you break a mirror youll have 7 years bad luck. that is not just superstitious, its stupid too.

if we dint sometimes have the superstitious belief in luck, we would never go against the odds to achieve something wonderful. its not a bad thing, its not a stupid thing, its a human thing

I like this thread, it's much more to my fluffy tastes than some of the other rants around!

HadesRulesMuch, I wish I had my old physics notes handy. Hmm, let me rephrase: I'd like them handy to point out the flaws in your reasoning in your first (and nonetheless impressive!) post, then I'd like to burn them for the memories of three years of hell...

I think I can deal with the conflict between the laws of thermodynamics and big bang theory etc. These theories and laws must be taken in context and on the appropriate scale. The laws of thermodynamics are classical physics laws; like much classical physics, they get pretty ropey on the quantum scale that cosmology (universe creation) operates on. In addition, increasing complexity and entropy are not contradictory - you have to look at the whole picture here and separate universal tendencies with localised tendencies. Gah, getting a headache just thinking about it.

That's quite enough physics (cheers reverberate around the forum).

I'm an agnostic - I believe that atheism is too steadfast, even dogmatic a position to take in the face of the evidence (or lack of evidence) available. While the onus of proof is on the proof positive, as Steph said, at the same time this renders it impossible to prove the non-existence of God/whatever. As I believe we won't prove the existence of God either (regardless of whether or not he/she/it/they exist), I'm an agnostic.

As for spirituality and faith... it's kind of hard for me to make a definitive statement here. I'm not particularly spiritual, even less superstitious (I have to say I agree more with Ashmoria than Bottle on this) and the only faith I have is in the love and loyalty of those I am close to. But is that hope? Dunno, I know certain people can have faith in my love and loyalty - it's instinctive and I've witnessed this firsthand. I say witnessed as it's like you act outside of your mind and your mind is able to watch your reaction.

OK, I'm rambling, it's been a long day at work!

Best wishes to you all

no faith in the damn server...

DP

TP

hmmmmmm
well
if you have calculated the odds of winning the lottery and you still play thinking its a good idea, if its not because you have the superstitious feeling that your luck will give you an edge, the only other explanation is that you are stupid. the odds of winning the lottery are abyssmal. given that im not much of a gambler, i dont see much FUN in the lottery (as there can be in going to a casino for an evening and throwing away a couple hundred dollars). (although i do sometimes enjoy figuring out how i would deal with winning $200million)

i dont think youre stupid. i think that you must be denying that you believe that in those kind of circumstances you would have LUCK. the belief in luck is superstitious.



actually, there are many cases in which the average payoff from a lottery ticket is higher than the buy-in cost. sure, your odds of winning the jackpot are low, but with (for instance) a particular state lotto where i live the average payoff is $2 on each $1 ticket. this doesn't mean that each ticket holder will get that, but that you are statistically very likely to win something, even if it is a small prize. so you're right...i'm not stupid. i understand statistics.


to be human is to be superstitious, its part of what gives us imagination. its what lets us see the possiblities. its part of curiosity. they all go together and you cant have one without the others. its not just believing that if you break a mirror youll have 7 years bad luck. that is not just superstitious, its stupid too.

if we dint sometimes have the superstitious belief in luck, we would never go against the odds to achieve something wonderful. its not a bad thing, its not a stupid thing, its a human thing

again, you are being incredibly cavalier with your use of language. no, curiosity doesn't inherently involve superstition...in fact, my curiosity is pretty much 100% due to my lack of superstition. curiosity and superstition are most often enemies, since if you aren't nearly as likely to inquire into the real nature of things if you embrace fully the idea that "God just wants it that way" or "the pixies are responsible for that" or "the sun is a chariot driven by the Sun God." saying that curiosity and superstition are bound to each other is like claiming that happiness and denial are exactly the same, since many people satisfy their need for happiness by using denial.

imagination gives rise to supersition, not the other way around. i have plenty of imagination, but since i don't believe my imaginings are real i am not superstitious. imagining something doesn't make you superstitious, period. you really need to familiarize yourself with what "superstition" means, because i don't even know where you are getting most of this stuff.

believing in luck is, again, NOT SUPERSTITION. luck is luck; you can believe that you have a small chance of succeeding at something, and decide that you are willing to take that chance, and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SUPERSTITION. please look up the definition of the word if you aren't going to believe me.

no no no no you misunderstood me
i dont think that imaginiation, curiosity or the ability to write fiction is superstition, i think they come from the same place in our heads. everything you said to refute that is absolutely right

the belief in luck IS superstition as the investment come-on say "past performance is no guarantee of future earnings"

no lottery pays out more than it takes it, that you CAN win $2 on a $1 ticket is what keeps you playing. ask any gambler, they all lose money over time. the odds are with the house.

its superstitious to believe that because you got a good lottery ticket yesterday that youll get another one today
luck is only lucky is retrospect.

in any case i have vowed to stop talking about this. true i just broke that vow but dammit im trying again

the belief in luck IS superstition as the investment come-on say "past performance is no guarantee of future earnings"

no lottery pays out more than it takes it, that you CAN win $2 on a $1 ticket is what keeps you playing. ask any gambler, they all lose money over time. the odds are with the house.

its superstitious to believe that because you got a good lottery ticket yesterday that youll get another one today
luck is only lucky is retrospect.

in any case i have vowed to stop talking about this. true i just broke that vow but dammit im trying again

the gambler's falacy is, obviously, a falacy. if you want to call that superstition then i think you are really stretching the term, but i will give you that point for the sake of all our sanity. however, believing in LUCK is not superstition, because luck (i.e. chance) is a real and provable phenomenon. some things occur by chance, that is proven. how you decide to use the odds is up to you, but you don't have to be superstitious to play those odds. you are superstitious if you think that clapping your hands three times and turning around twice will help matters, or if you think that God will influence the outcome, true. but not all of us fall into those traps.

Two words: The Crusades.

As historical texts put it, the Crusades were caused to try to 'unite' the two split branches of Christianity, and used war to 'reclaim' the 'Holy Land' as an excuse to travel from Western Europe to modern-day Turkey, then into the Middle East.

Therein lies the roots of the present day conflict, because of the seeds of conflict already planted.Funny how people like you always have to go back 1500 years (give or take) to find an example of a war of religion.

The primary reason the crusades began was not for purely religious reasons.

There was a tradition among early Christians to complete a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, not unlike Islam's hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. These unarmed caravans of pilgrims were being attacked, robbed, and killed by locals while traveling through the desert. That, my friend, is the root cause of the Crusades.

Two words: The Crusades.

As historical texts put it, the Crusades were caused to try to 'unite' the two split branches of Christianity, and used war to 'reclaim' the 'Holy Land' as an excuse to travel from Western Europe to modern-day Turkey, then into the Middle East.

Therein lies the roots of the present day conflict, because of the seeds of conflict already planted.Funny how people like you always have to go back 1500 years (give or take) to find an example of a war of religion.

The primary reason the crusades began was not for purely religious reasons.

There was a tradition among early Christians to complete a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, not unlike Islam's hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. These unarmed caravans of pilgrims were being attacked, robbed, and killed by locals while traveling through the desert. That, my friend, is the root cause of the Crusades.