NationStates Jolt Archive

Have you noticed that Donald Rumsfeld wont say the word “torture” ? Ok, what must be done for him to consider these acts torture? Haha. It’s ridiculous! These republicans are so good at wording things. And this is what they must do. Language is important to them because it’s the only weapon they have against… say…. democrats--which I must add, usually rely on facts rather than on carefully worded speeches that twist and contort reality for their own advantage!

If America does it to Iraqis it is abuse
If Sadam does it to Iraqis it is Torture
If Iraqis do it to Americans it is outrageous torture and we should bomb them back to the stone age.......

Go figure, no one ever thinks that they are the bad guys.
I think that the soldiers responsable for this should be turned over to a Muslim court......

Torturing POW's is a war crime, abuse is just immoral.

The same selective language led to the genocide in Rwanda.

Torturing POW's is a war crime, abuse is just immoral.

Ah, but what happened was even worse then that. They tortured civilians. IRC has already stated that 90% of the people being held were being wrongly held to begin with. They weren't even POW's. They were civilians.

Torturing POW's is a war crime, abuse is just immoral.

Ah, but what happened was even worse then that. They tortured civilians. IRC has already stated that 90% of the people being held were being wrongly held to begin with. They weren't even POW's. They were civilians.

Oh..and the IRC was there when they were picked up?...from what I've read 90% were taken not in sweeps but as a result of combat actions and are considered prisoners of war. As for torture..I'm sorry....what happenened was definitely abuse..but on the par of being torture? You can pull a defition out of Webster's all you want..but loud music and lights on all the time to me are a huge step away from the actions that Saddam's secret police engaged in. Now..there are reports of individuals, who might have used chem sticks or broom handles to sodomize prisoners, this would be construed as torture, but that is all they are right now...stories..uncorroborated at present. You'll not fine one report of an American cutting a prisoner..breaking the arms or legs of a prisoner,etc...

What they did was humiliating yes...abuse sure..but torture..Stephi...I'm sorry...I just can't make that step with you....I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

You'll not fine one report of an American cutting a prisoner..breaking the arms or legs of a prisoner,etc...

not gonna post it here directly, but how do you explain this (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_newyorker-i.jpg)?

Torturing POW's is a war crime, abuse is just immoral.

Ah, but what happened was even worse then that. They tortured civilians. IRC has already stated that 90% of the people being held were being wrongly held to begin with. They weren't even POW's. They were civilians.

Oh..and the IRC was there when they were picked up?..

Well, it looks like from all the evidence the IRC was correct though, now doesn't it. The Americans themselves are willing to admit 60%... so you know it's higher then what they will admit, always is.

It doesn't matter who they are. It's simply wrong to torture/abuse.

What they did was humiliating yes...abuse sure..but torture..Stephi...I'm sorry...I just can't make that step with you....I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, but just because someone else has done worse does not mean that this is not torture. Comparative morality does not work.

And I still say turn them over to a Muslim court.

You'll not fine one report of an American cutting a prisoner..breaking the arms or legs of a prisoner,etc...

not gonna post it here directly, but how do you explain this (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_newyorker-i.jpg)?

Yes, I watched the hearings the other day and Rumsfeld clearly said it was going to get much worse before it gets better that there are murders and rapes involved.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

Yes, I watched the hearings the other day and Rumsfeld clearly said it was going to get much worse before it gets better that there are murders and rapes involved.

indeed. i don't think enough people are taking this quite seriously enough.

i am hoping that it will get Guantanamo bay closed... it is rediculous that the US can run a prison on foreign soil, and claim that the ppl there do not count as POW's, so are not covered by the geneva convention, and as they are not on US soil they are not covered by the constitution....

i am hoping that it will get Guantanamo bay closed... it is rediculous that the US can run a prison on foreign soil, and claim that the ppl there do not count as POW's, so are not covered by the geneva convention, and as they are not on US soil they are not covered by the constitution....

It's why they did it.. but of course I'm sure people must realize that.

I can call a rose a cookie, but it's still a rose.

i am hoping that it will get Guantanamo bay closed... it is rediculous that the US can run a prison on foreign soil, and claim that the ppl there do not count as POW's, so are not covered by the geneva convention, and as they are not on US soil they are not covered by the constitution....

It's why they did it.. but of course I'm sure people must realize that.

I can call a rose a cookie, but it's still a rose.

Yes, but if you call it a cookie over and over, soon the american public will be eating chocolate chip roses while watching the final episode of Friends.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...
I think he was trying to define what torture was as opposed to abuse.
The civilian thing is a bit dodgy though, if some one does not were a uniform but has an AK47 and has used it in the past is he still a civilian?
I'm not saying that mistakes have not been made or that any of the actions are justified, just that it is a lot more complicated when you are there every day not knowing if the perosn walking down the street in civilian cloths is going to thank you or blow themselves up.
US troops are just not used to it, they have not had to do tours of Northern Ireland or been in situations like this.

i am hoping that it will get Guantanamo bay closed... it is rediculous that the US can run a prison on foreign soil, and claim that the ppl there do not count as POW's, so are not covered by the geneva convention, and as they are not on US soil they are not covered by the constitution....

i want to see people dragged before the hague international criminal court. mostly just to see if the us would actually attack europe over it like they've threatened to.

i am hoping that it will get Guantanamo bay closed... it is rediculous that the US can run a prison on foreign soil, and claim that the ppl there do not count as POW's, so are not covered by the geneva convention, and as they are not on US soil they are not covered by the constitution....

It's why they did it.. but of course I'm sure people must realize that.

I can call a rose a cookie, but it's still a rose.

Yes, but if you call it a cookie over and over, soon the american public will be eating chocolate chip roses while watching the final episode of Friends.

Ya make a valid point Celeborne, can't argue with it.. you're right. Thankfully not all Americans are so easily brainwashed. There is still hope I believe for America... just not under this current administration obviously.. There of course are going to be people that no matter what this incompetent administration does will defend it.. but the tides are turning.. was looking at numbers yesterday.. Bush's approval rating is @ 46% lowest since he assumed office.. and 62% of Americans now believe the country is moving in the wrong direction. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

You'll not fine one report of an American cutting a prisoner..breaking the arms or legs of a prisoner,etc...

not gonna post it here directly, but how do you explain this (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_newyorker-i.jpg)?

Well..with nothing to go on...it looks like a person?..you show me a picture and put no context behind it?

Well..with nothing to go on...it looks like a person?..you show me a picture and put no context behind it?

he's dead jim.

and the story and caption that have been going with it is that he was beaten to death.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi..you're young, have never been in combat or around soldiers in the extremes they go thru...I've seen real torture steph...stuff that would make you make you puke at the very thought of it...what those Iraqis (and from what I have read, this wing was reserved for those that had committed terrorist actions) went thru by a civilian who has never seen true torture, the likes of which Saddam's secret police gave out, I guess could be construed at torture..but not by me..I've seen the real deal.

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi..you're young, have never been in combat or around soldiers in the extremes they go thru...I've seen real torture steph...stuff that would make you make you puke at the very thought of it...what those Iraqis (and from what I have read, this wing was reserved for those that had committed terrorist actions) went thru by a civilian who has never seen true torture, the likes of which Saddam's secret police gave out, I guess could be construed at torture..but not by me..I've seen the real deal.

Not to put to sharp an edge on it, but horse-pucky. You know what, in my line of work I have seen people shot in the head and people run thru wood chippers while they were still alive, and you know what ? When it comes down to it , it is all murder.
I feel the same way about torture. Yeah stripping them naked and piling them up , or beating them and then putting a leash on them is not the same as making small cuts on the body and then rubbing salt in it or burning them with a hot light bulb, but it achieves the same purpose. Humiliation, pain ,and the breaking of spirit. Showing you are stronger and can do whatever you want, and when it comes down to , it is all torture.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi..you're young, have never been in combat or around soldiers in the extremes they go thru...I've seen real torture steph...stuff that would make you make you puke at the very thought of it...what those Iraqis (and from what I have read, this wing was reserved for those that had committed terrorist actions) went thru by a civilian who has never seen true torture, the likes of which Saddam's secret police gave out, I guess could be construed at torture..but not by me..I've seen the real deal.

:roll:
Ah...because you claim you've seen a bunch of disgusting torture it makes you a human disgust-o-meter ? Just because you've seen more disgusting stuff (again, I doubt you have) it makes other stuff somehow less disgusting?
If your "experience" (which I doubt you had) leaves you thinking that what we've seen in those pictures and heard from witnesses isn't torture, then I'd say you are the perfect example of how war turns soldiers into desensitized morons.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi.

What is torture to one may not be torture to another. You may be able to endure some thing I couldn't.. I may be able to endure some thing you can't. It's all in how one thinks.. feels.. believes. What was done to these Iraqi's by pure virtue of their religion was nothing short of torture. You didn't exactly take that into account.. and just because you went to Vietnam, that doesn't mean you're now an expert on torture. This was very much torture. Any one who says it wasn't is in denial. As Rumsfeld has said, it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Such as rape and murder.. and if you try and tell me rape and sodomy against your will isn't torture, then I'm not sure what is. I won't even go into the talk that murders also took place. There is no getting around what has happened. No matter how much some try to rationalize it away.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi.

What is torture to one may not be torture to another. You may be able to endure some thing I couldn't.. I may be able to endure some thing you can't. It's all in how one thinks.. feels.. believes. What was done to these Iraqi's by pure virtue of their religion was nothing short of torture. You didn't exactly take that into account.. and just because you went to Vietnam, that doesn't mean you're now an expert on torture. This was very much torture. Any one who says it wasn't is in denial. As Rumsfeld has said, it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Such as rape and murder.. and if you try and tell me rape and sodomy against your will isn't torture, then I'm not sure what is. I won't even go into the talk that murders also took place. There is no getting around what has happened. No matter how much some try to rationalize it away.

Oh..you'll never hear me say that rape or murder or beating a prisoner isn't torture..but leading them around on a dogleash or putting a bag over their head?...ahmm..in a word...humliation..yes..torture..no

No matter how emotional you get over the pics....abuse is as far as I can see it going..

And as far as it getting worse..then of course THOSE actions may constitute torture..but from what I've seen so far based on the pics I've seen nothing that my nephew's fraternity hasn't done in it's hazing.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi.

What is torture to one may not be torture to another. You may be able to endure some thing I couldn't.. I may be able to endure some thing you can't. It's all in how one thinks.. feels.. believes. What was done to these Iraqi's by pure virtue of their religion was nothing short of torture. You didn't exactly take that into account.. and just because you went to Vietnam, that doesn't mean you're now an expert on torture. This was very much torture. Any one who says it wasn't is in denial. As Rumsfeld has said, it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Such as rape and murder.. and if you try and tell me rape and sodomy against your will isn't torture, then I'm not sure what is. I won't even go into the talk that murders also took place. There is no getting around what has happened. No matter how much some try to rationalize it away.

Oh..you'll never hear me say that rape or murder or beating a prisoner isn't torture..but leading them around on a dogleash or putting a bag over their head?...ahmm..in a word...humliation..yes..torture..no

No matter how emotional you get over the pics....abuse is as far as I can see it going..

And as far as it getting worse..then of course THOSE actions may constitute torture..but from what I've seen so far based on the pics I've seen nothing that my nephew's fraternity hasn't done in it's hazing.

Still a breach of international law.. (Geneva Conventions) the Americans have lost ANY high ground they may of once thought they had. It just seems to never end with these people. To think.. America actually use to be the good guys.. amazing how 4 short years can change all that.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi..you're young, have never been in combat or around soldiers in the extremes they go thru...I've seen real torture steph...stuff that would make you make you puke at the very thought of it...what those Iraqis (and from what I have read, this wing was reserved for those that had committed terrorist actions) went thru by a civilian who has never seen true torture, the likes of which Saddam's secret police gave out, I guess could be construed at torture..but not by me..I've seen the real deal.

:roll:
Ah...because you claim you've seen a bunch of disgusting torture it makes you a human disgust-o-meter ? Just because you've seen more disgusting stuff (again, I doubt you have) it makes other stuff somehow less disgusting?
If your "experience" (which I doubt you had) leaves you thinking that what we've seen in those pictures and heard from witnesses isn't torture, then I'd say you are the perfect example of how war turns soldiers into desensitized morons.

War doesn't turn us into morons...Tuminiaa...desensitized perhaps..on that I'll agree..it also makes us depressed...wracked full of survivor guilt, gives us wounds on the inside as well as the outside..and if you ever had a chance to talk to any of my buddies I would hope you would have had the decency to keep your mouth shut if you couldn't say anything nice to them...they had enough of your trash-talk over 30 yrs ago.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi.

What is torture to one may not be torture to another. You may be able to endure some thing I couldn't.. I may be able to endure some thing you can't. It's all in how one thinks.. feels.. believes. What was done to these Iraqi's by pure virtue of their religion was nothing short of torture. You didn't exactly take that into account.. and just because you went to Vietnam, that doesn't mean you're now an expert on torture. This was very much torture. Any one who says it wasn't is in denial. As Rumsfeld has said, it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Such as rape and murder.. and if you try and tell me rape and sodomy against your will isn't torture, then I'm not sure what is. I won't even go into the talk that murders also took place. There is no getting around what has happened. No matter how much some try to rationalize it away.

Oh..you'll never hear me say that rape or murder or beating a prisoner isn't torture..but leading them around on a dogleash or putting a bag over their head?...ahmm..in a word...humliation..yes..torture..no

No matter how emotional you get over the pics....abuse is as far as I can see it going..

And as far as it getting worse..then of course THOSE actions may constitute torture..but from what I've seen so far based on the pics I've seen nothing that my nephew's fraternity hasn't done in it's hazing.

Isn't hazing technically illegal?
Haven't people died because of hazings?

The comparison doesn't help you.

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi.

What is torture to one may not be torture to another. You may be able to endure some thing I couldn't.. I may be able to endure some thing you can't. It's all in how one thinks.. feels.. believes. What was done to these Iraqi's by pure virtue of their religion was nothing short of torture. You didn't exactly take that into account.. and just because you went to Vietnam, that doesn't mean you're now an expert on torture. This was very much torture. Any one who says it wasn't is in denial. As Rumsfeld has said, it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Such as rape and murder.. and if you try and tell me rape and sodomy against your will isn't torture, then I'm not sure what is. I won't even go into the talk that murders also took place. There is no getting around what has happened. No matter how much some try to rationalize it away.

Oh..you'll never hear me say that rape or murder or beating a prisoner isn't torture..but leading them around on a dogleash or putting a bag over their head?...ahmm..in a word...humliation..yes..torture..no

No matter how emotional you get over the pics....abuse is as far as I can see it going..

And as far as it getting worse..then of course THOSE actions may constitute torture..but from what I've seen so far based on the pics I've seen nothing that my nephew's fraternity hasn't done in it's hazing.

Isn't hazing technically illegal?
Haven't people died because of hazings?

The comparison doesn't help you.

I'm sure on some campuses it's illegal..others may take no notice of it if it's supervised..don't know..I've not been of "college youth" age for a few decades..and yes people have died due to hazings..they also die from crossing the street..die from slipping on a bar of soap..and your point?

Never said I wanted a comparison to help me.....I've stated that in my opinion which all of us ever has on this forum that what I've seen so far and read so far leads me to believe that the term "abuse" is more appropriate then "torture"....then again..some on here want to extend the term "Sadistic murderer" to each and every US Soldier there..I wonder if that extension goes to the 20,000 or so Coalition troops or the 45,000 British troops?

If America does it to Iraqis it is abuse
If Sadam does it to Iraqis it is Torture
If Iraqis do it to Americans it is outrageous torture and we should bomb them back to the stone age.......

Go figure, no one ever thinks that they are the bad guys.
I think that the soldiers responsable for this should be turned over to a Muslim court......

Good point. Anyway, hell to the Bush administration.

Never said I wanted a comparison to help me.....I've stated that in my opinion which all of us ever has on this forum that what I've seen so far and read so far leads me to believe that the term "abuse" is more appropriate then "torture"....then again..some on here want to extend the term "Sadistic murderer" to each and every US Soldier there..I wonder if that extension goes to the 20,000 or so Coalition troops or the 45,000 British troops?

And there are those here who believe that IRaqi's are subhuman and deserve what they get, and that the sun will shine out of GW's butt no matter what. Using the existance of extreme views as a basis of the debate really isn't helpful...


So - just curious - but what does it take before it crosses into "torture" for you? Only physical torture counts? It's all OK until the first fingernail gets ripped out?


Q: If these pictures came out but they were American prisoners held by a foreign country and being treated in this manner what would the reaction be on the street?

I mean - we can argue semantics as to which event is torture and which is just abuse. At the end of the day though it sure looks like hell to a people you claim to be liberating. To them it just looks like you're the new bad guy in town that treats them like shit, and doesn't give them any voice in their own country. Just the next tinpot military dictator running their lives.

I'd feel that way in their shoes too! Especially while I see the "Enduring bases" being constructed that indicate that you intend to hang around messing with their lives for a long, long time.....

-Z-

Oh... and a nice side effect now is that because their have been public statements that some rapes might have occured - in Iraq now ALL females who have been detained are being viewed with suspicion.

Dishonored females are shunned in Arab lands. Any suspicion pretty much ruins her prospects for life.

So at this point, a US serviceman can coerce whatever the hell they want out of any Iraqi woman with the simple threat of arrest. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=6&u=/latimests/20040511/ts_latimes/adoubleordealforfemaleprisoners)


So nice to see that the invasion has removed that everpresent level of fear felt by the Iraq people ....


:roll:

-Z-

I saw what our boys in Vietnam endured far worse from the VietCong the what those Iraqis suffered.

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction, but wtf has this got to do with Vietnam?

Nothing of course...

It's a correlation between abuse and torture there Stephi.

What is torture to one may not be torture to another. You may be able to endure some thing I couldn't.. I may be able to endure some thing you can't. It's all in how one thinks.. feels.. believes. What was done to these Iraqi's by pure virtue of their religion was nothing short of torture. You didn't exactly take that into account.. and just because you went to Vietnam, that doesn't mean you're now an expert on torture. This was very much torture. Any one who says it wasn't is in denial. As Rumsfeld has said, it's going to get much worse before it gets better. Such as rape and murder.. and if you try and tell me rape and sodomy against your will isn't torture, then I'm not sure what is. I won't even go into the talk that murders also took place. There is no getting around what has happened. No matter how much some try to rationalize it away.

Oh..you'll never hear me say that rape or murder or beating a prisoner isn't torture..but leading them around on a dogleash or putting a bag over their head?...ahmm..in a word...humliation..yes..torture..no

No matter how emotional you get over the pics....abuse is as far as I can see it going..

And as far as it getting worse..then of course THOSE actions may constitute torture..but from what I've seen so far based on the pics I've seen nothing that my nephew's fraternity hasn't done in it's hazing.

Isn't hazing technically illegal?
Haven't people died because of hazings?

The comparison doesn't help you.

I'm sure on some campuses it's illegal..others may take no notice of it if it's supervised..don't know..I've not been of "college youth" age for a few decades..and yes people have died due to hazings..they also die from crossing the street..die from slipping on a bar of soap..and your point?

Never said I wanted a comparison to help me.....I've stated that in my opinion which all of us ever has on this forum that what I've seen so far and read so far leads me to believe that the term "abuse" is more appropriate then "torture"....then again..some on here want to extend the term "Sadistic murderer" to each and every US Soldier there..I wonder if that extension goes to the 20,000 or so Coalition troops or the 45,000 British troops?

Sorry if I'm getting this wrong here Salishe, but it seems to me that your justifying the actions of these soldiers by saying "Well, I've seen much worse". Does this mean that the actions of the soldiers was fine, or alright in some way because they haven't reached some pre-defined level. It seems that defining their actions as "Abuse", somehow makes everything peachy keen and aok??? I'm sorry, but I've dealt with several people in the past who have had to deal with abuse by parents and spouses, and from what little I've seen, on going abuse is torture. Just because you've seen worse, or heard of worse, doesn't make anything any better, or all right, or make these soldiers somehow justified. They are criminals, nothing more.
The apology that "Well, you've never been in a combat situation, so you don't know what they are going through...." (sorry not verbatim), doesn't justify their actions either. If highly stressful situations were a valid argument for criminal behaviour, then every air traffic controller on the planet should be justified with walking out into the street and blowing a few people away every once in a while. The reality is, thankfully, that being stressed out is not an excuse for criminal or immoral action. It may help explain why an individual acted in some manner, but it most certainly doesn't excuse their behaviour, or validate it in some way.

Honestly Salishe, I thought that someone with a military background would be more enraged then civilians. These idiots have tarnished the reputation of an organization that most of it's members hold in highest regard as an institution of honour and bravery. An institution which attempts to teach that these values, are a soldiers highest calling. The actions of these idiots have endangered the lives of their ( and from what you've stated your own ) compatriots in arms, as well as the lives of American and Western civilian lives around the world. These actions will bring about swift and unfortunately deadly reprisals from fanatics, who are now finding it much easier to recruit willing militants to strike out against what they see as an evil invader, and which these soldiers have provided them the ammunition to "prove" (note the quotes before jumping on the use of this word here) their point.
The responsibility for the deaths of any soldiers, and civilians as retaliations for their sickness and depravity rests solely upon their heads.
My own father has been in the Canadian military for 36 years, and spent several years training American personnel, and he is enraged, and would love 5 minutes with these soldiers for risking the lives of soldiers that he has learned hold the highest respect for. Perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your views before defending these people, if you were over there right as a soldier, your job would now have gotten 10 times more difficult and more dangerous because of this, can you honestly forgive that, and the loss of life that will occur because of it???

Oh and about the hazing, one major difference between what these Iraqi's and college kids taking part in a hazing ritual, is that kids in a hazing ritual take part volunarily as a way of being part of a larger social group. I haven't had the chance to interview many of these Iraqi prisoners, but I'm pretty certain that they didn't volunteer to be "abused" as you so delicately put it.

Here's the shocker... FOX NEWS reported that yes it was torture and it's wide spread and systemic. They also said it has been happening since Afganistan and that there are 25 known deaths from this "abuse" and so far noone has been implicated.

FOX News said this? I'm confused! Would they actually report a truth that would be so damaging to the right wing administration without being forced to report it because its on every other news station first?

Gentlemen..gentlemen...please allow me to disavow what some on here may gather..yes..being not just former but retired military I take severe except to the situation that occured at Abu Ghairid (sp?) Prison. What these men have done to the reputation of the US Army is in my mind, although not as horrific...but just as damaging as that which the Armed Forces had to deal with after My Lai came out in the open.

I am not condoning, or diminishing what was done...but I just can't agree in good conscience knowing what I know as regards torture that has occured to US Servicemembers and POW's that what the Iraqis endured constitutes "torture"...in the sense that I know it...now...many of you have differing opinions..and Zep has it perhaps right...that we are arguing over semantics..but perhaps splitting hairs is all that I can base my opinions on.

Now..let me tell you just what I would have done had I been there...as a Staff Non-Commissioned Officer I would have relieved the entire unit, guilty as well as innocent..lock, stock and barrel sent them home to be replaced by an Non-US military unit..many of the Coalition's partners didn't want to send combat troops..I would have accepted Japan or some other country sending MIlitary Police to act as Corrections Officers in the Prison system.

I would have brace up against a friggin wall every Staff NCO there til I found out who did what..when, how many times..and I would have had their stripes right there and then with an Article 15, and if they had any personal actions attributed to them I would have had them spend time in the brig..the lower echolons of troops the same...

Now..as far as officers...I would have informed my Regimental Sergeant Major to bring up the matter to the CO..usually a full-bird Colonel (and I've yet to meet a Regimental CO not take his Sergeant Major's suggestions) and have him institute Art. 32 hearings on all Officers who knowingly abrogated their authority to have good order and discipline in that unit...

I could go on..but I hope you and the others on here get my drift..I am in now way, shape, or form condoning or defending these men...I am defending the 120,000 troops over there that had nothing to do with what happened in that prison.

I'll say it again....

Fox news reported it to be widespread and systemic. NOt just 7 guys. It has been happening for years and there have been deaths from the beatings. I heard these facts later from a debate in the house on C-SPAN.


This isn't a small problem in one prison.

Salishe,
I think I can understand some of your frustration, but in your zealousness ( and I in no way mean that in a bad way ) to defend the military as a whole, you appear to many to be doing two things: First, you seem to be minimizing the actions of those involved, by saying "well I've seen much worse", or "much worse has occured before", etc... Which seems to justify the actions of those involved in these abhorrent actions.

Secondly, in an attempt to defend the miltary as an entire unit, you seem to be saying that this is a one time event, that hasn't occured anywhere else, and that we should stop looking, or questioning any further, when there are allegations that this is occuring at several other prisons. I think we would be guilty on some level of just turning our heads to the possiblity of this occuring elsewhere, and think it is a duty of American citizens to demand that a full scale wide reaching investigation be launched into these allegations, and that any findings be acted upon swiftly and decisively to remove and punish those personnel who are performing these actions throughout the forces.

I can appreciate your dedication to an organization you hold dear, and would think that you would be at the forefront calling for a cull of those responsible, to restore the honor and glory of this institution that you obviously care very deeply for, rather then attempting to minimize the actions of this small percentage by saying, "it's always happened", "every military in history has been like this", "I've seen/heard much worse than this" , or the lamest excuse of all "But they would do worse if it was them".

I honestly don't think that most people believe that the entire military is acting in the manner of these few neanderthalic boneheads. I also believe that most member of the US armed forces are equally sickened and enraged by the actions of these traitors (and yes I do think they are traitors, in that their actions have directly endangered the lives of the fellow service personnel and fellow Americans, while at the same time helped and aided the causes of the fanatics lined up against them).

Most of us aren't trying to tarnish the rest of the soldiers Salishe.

We do, however, view this as a collosal failure in leadership - in part we belive fueled by the attitude of the administration that the War on Terror operates outside the Geneva Conventions as Rumsfeld sstated going into Afghanistan. I think that has filtered down and been heard and understood as the way it is.

And by putting policies in place to bring in outsiders to direct intelligence gathering within these prisons they have created an environment that lacks accountability through the normal chain of command.

Things I still want to know: Who exactly did the Red Cross approach with their issues for the past year. That alone sets a good benchmark on how high up this failure went.

I also want to know why Rumsfeld seemed more angry with "people running around with these digital cameras taking illegal pictures" than with the problems within the prison itself.

Because that it the only time he looked ready to lose his cool.

HEads will roll - of that there is no doubt. But of course we all know that sh*t flows downhill, so the brunt will be borne by the troops in the jail rather than the leaders who are supposed to be keeping tabs on these things. But then again, following orders is a lousy excuse. These soldiers knew that what they were doing was wrong. They did it anyway.

Saddly, of them all - it's the whistleblower's career that is probably toast now too.

-Z-

I'll say it again....

Fox news reported it to be widespread and systemic. NOt just 7 guys. It has been happening for years and there have been deaths from the beatings. I heard these facts later from a debate in the house on C-SPAN.


This isn't a small problem in one prison.

I'll say it again....

Fox news reported it to be widespread and systemic. NOt just 7 guys. It has been happening for years and there have been deaths from the beatings. I heard these facts later from a debate in the house on C-SPAN.


This isn't a small problem in one prison.

aHMM...we've not been in Iraq for years....and I never said it was just 7 guys..there have been allegations to at least up to 20 personnel..not counting any actions toward US federal intelligence agents, they have their own Chain of Command....

And these are members of the same Reservists Brigade that had problems with a prison in the south of Iraq...the entire Brigade needs to be sent home and replaced with an Active Duty unit. These reservists are clearly not cut out for the task

It would seem to me that a "cleaning house" is necessary for those involved in military corrections and their facilities..I personally would favor a Non-US country provide for prison personnel..that way at least any further actions at the very least couldn't be attributed to the US.

sorry... I thought you may have seen my previous post where I said that the 25 deaths that occured include Afganistan

When I first saw those pictures, I said to myself “Omg, this is not good for us. Now everybody will really hate us!” Just imagine these pictures being played over and over again on Arab TV! I’m sure there will be many more attacks against the U.S. and our allies because of this. Oh definitely! These stupid soldiers really F**ed up the situation (more than what it use to be)! Once more it’s a failure of administration. This time, it’s a failure of the command structure of the military. Of course, the people in charge of the prisons are blaming everything on these soldiers who are, frankly, young idiots that did not know what they were getting themselves into. Don’t get me wrong; they should be punished! But shouldn’t the top military leaders (who are in charge of supervising and commanding these soldiers) be punished too?

I'm sure everyone else is thinking this