NationStates Jolt Archive

On 2004 May 7th, the EU Competitivity Council prepared to legalise software patents without discussion. Their new proposal not only discards all the amendments made by the European Parliament last year but also extends patentability even further than the original paper proposed!

They are therefore blatantly ignoring the will of the elected representatives. Furthermore, they ignore all the protests and critical voices of programmers, economic experts and even companies from america where a similar system is already in effect.

The irish EU presidency is pushing for unlimited patentability, and is officially sponsored by Microsoft and other big companies! These big businesses are the only ones that can benefit from software patents, contrary to the claims of the pro-patent lobby (which only consists of the same businesses). It should be obvious that their claim is a complete lie, especially considering what Microsoft regularly does to any competition that might arise.

The final decision will be made on the 17th/18th of this month, giving barely enough time to organise. Despite this, engagement needs to rise so that this proposal can be stopped and the amended version by the European Parliament can be put into action.

This is not a minor issue, this can effectively destroy the software industry of europe and will, through the costs for patent lawyers and the resulting monopoly effectively prey onto everyone who uses any piece of software, even indirectly! Even if you don't use a computer or other digital device (yes, a VCR IS driven by software!) at all you'll have to pay, because the services on which you depend ARE driven by software and therefore will become much more expensive!

Therefore, swift action is essential!

Please at the very least inform anybody you know of this danger!

A good example of the consequences can be found here:

http://webshop.ffii.org/

FFII homepage:
http://swpat.ffii.de/

Please also read
http://swpat.ffii.org/news/04/cons0507/index.en.html#bakgr
http://swpat.ffii.org/news/recent/index.en.html#cons040507

Please sign support for these petitions:
http://swpat.ffii.org/papers/europarl0309/demands/index.en.html
http://petition.eurolinux.org/

also, please consider playing a more active role:
http://swpat.ffii.org/group/todo/index.en.html

THIS IS IMPORTANT, DON'T IGNORE IT!

BUMP, only 6 days left to act.

i bet nobody cares! :x j/k

I can't believe they can just ignore this. :( So many people, all using the web, software, etc. on a regular basis and who are also politically interested and also like discussing things. It can't be that they don't care! They must realise that even this site could be shut down once software patents are in effect!

I think the lack of interest is two fold.

The huge amount of non Europeans
and
That we know money always wins in todays world.

There are of course many ppl. from countries outside europe on this site, but I'm sure that at least 1/4 of this site's users from europe.

Of course money has very good chances of winning but if we simply accept this, it'll only get worse. And the EU isn't completely run by corporations yet so there still is a chance to bring honesty and democracy to Europe!

It's not even hard to help: the simplest thing is to sign the petitions. It's far less time consuming than creating a nation on this site!
And / or you can participate in the net strike! You don't even have to leave your computer for this!

At least tell everybody about this, maybe the person you talk to is the one that makes the difference! We might never know, but we have to try, it's our future being sold out to the big corporations!

See? Everything is becoming more American! And why don't we have a say in the matter?
Never liked the EU. I don't really have enough time (at the moment) to go reading all the sources, but I'm not too happy about that. I see how little businesses get sqashed in America. I wouldn't like to see that here.

You don't have time?!?!? You're hanging out here, in a GAME forum!!! Even if you don't have the time or don't want to read the sources, at least go and sign the petitions! Dammit, if you don't want to see this happen, you need to DO something! It's NOT going to change unless you act! :!:

I spent the whole day writing letters to various people in the government and the EU. I participate in the net strike. I try to inform as many people as I can. I signed all the petitions. I don't want Bill Gates and his like to kill our future! I just can't let this happen. :x

I signed the petition.

I was under the impression that citizens of EU countries had pretty much no say in what the EU did. Was this the wrong conclusion to draw?

(Right. You got me there Zhudov.)
(Texas, the citizens do have very little say. It is likely that the petition will be ignored, but that does not mean that it should not be done.)

Zhudov. I do have time to go on the game forum as it does not require my full attention. something like this new European law does. I am leaving also in 10 minutes, so it is doubtful that I could absorb most of what has been said. I will check the links tomorrow, but you have to accept what I'm saying.

I signed the petition.
Cool!

EU citizens don't have much say by conventional means, this is true. Furthermore, the current situation more than anything displays the complete lack of democratic control inside the EU. Still, by directly appealing to various important people, via petitions, personal letters, strikes, etc., we can make our voice heared if we just manage to get a lot of peaple to participate in one or more ways. The EU isn't a Corporate Dictatorship / Bordello yet and we might even be able to prevent it from becoming one, if we act now.

Jordaxia, I of course must and will accept what you're saying. It's, however, good to hear that you'll be reading something tomorrow.
Please consider signing the petition(s), it doesn't take much time (really). Also, the information is structured very well (IMO at least) so one can get a general idea without reading much at all.
Thanks for your effort!

BUMP!

Don't simply ignore this! Acting is not hard or time consuming at all! You can spare 10 minutes, can't you?

Bloody commies. If I create something, I want to keep it. I want the rights to my software, revolutionary lightbulb, or tricycle, and I want cash from anyone who wants to make something based off of my designs. You're trying to rob inventors of their rightful rewards, shame on you!

I sincerely hope you're joking.

But just in case you're being serious here, please DO read what is actually being proposed!
It's not that we wish to rob anything - the copyright laws perfectly well serve to make sure we don't.

We also don't wish to get rid of the existing patent system.

The only thing we want is to keep it as it is. Patents on software are not needed. They are, in fact, a bad thing because they stifle innovation. They make sure that the big companies can steal your work. There's a good quote I'm going to cite here (taken from the ffii site at:)

http://swpat.ffii.org/archive/quotes/index.en.html

This one is especially good for the definition of "theft".

(To help readers grasp why the European Commission's softpat directive proposal is so controversial, the analysis starts with a simple scenario.)


Imagine you own a small software company. You have written a powerful piece of software. This software is a creative combination of 1000 abstract rules (algorithms) and a lot of data. The rules take a few minutes or hours each to [re]invent, whereas developping and debugging the whole work took you 20 man-years. 900 of the rules were already known 20 years ago. 50 of the rules are now covered by patents. You own 3 of these patents. In order to obtain these patents, you had to rush to the patent office, disclose your business strategy and pay lawyer fees. IBM and Microsoft are meanwhile already turning your patented ideas into profit. You want them to stop? Their lawyer teams say you are infringing on 20-30 of their 50000 patents. So you reach a gentlemen's agreement: 3% of your annual sales revenues go to IBM, 2% to Microsoft, 2% .... Nonetheless, one day you enter the profit zone. You are now an attractive company. A patent agency approaches you. You are infringing on 2-3 of their patents, they say. Their claims are very broad. They want 100,000 EUR. Litigation could take 10 years and cost 1 million EUR. You pay. A month later, the next patent agent knocks on the door .... Before long you are broke. You seek protection from a big company. Microsoft offers to buy you for a symbolic fee. You accept. Under a copyright-only system, you would now be independent and rich. But by means of patents, Microsoft and others were able to steal your intellectual property.


Another one (from the same site):

(Gary Reback, a famous american software lawyer, narrates from his memories)

My own introduction to the realities of the patent system came in the 1980s, when my client, Sun Microsystems--then a small company--was accused by IBM of patent infringement. Threatening a massive lawsuit, IBM demanded a meeting to present its claims. Fourteen IBM lawyers and their assistants, all clad in the requisite dark blue suits, crowded into the largest conference room Sun had.

The chief blue suit orchestrated the presentation of the seven patents IBM claimed were infringed, the most prominent of which was IBM's notorious "fat lines" patent: To turn a thin line on a computer screen into a broad line, you go up and down an equal distance from the ends of the thin line and then connect the four points. You probably learned this technique for turning a line into a rectangle in seventh-grade geometry, and, doubtless, you believe it was devised by Euclid or some such 3,000-year-old thinker. Not according to the examiners of the USPTO, who awarded IBM a patent on the process.

After IBM's presentation, our turn came. As the Big Blue crew looked on (without a flicker of emotion), my colleagues--all of whom had both engineering and law degrees--took to the whiteboard with markers, methodically illustrating, dissecting, and demolishing IBM's claims. We used phrases like: "You must be kidding," and "You ought to be ashamed." But the IBM team showed no emotion, save outright indifference. Confidently, we proclaimed our conclusion: Only one of the seven IBM patents would be deemed valid by a court, and no rational court would find that Sun's technology infringed even that one.

An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themselves. They just sat there, stonelike. Finally, the chief suit responded. "OK," he said, "maybe you don't infringe these seven patents. But we have 10,000 U.S. patents. Do you really want us to go back to Armonk [IBM headquarters in New York] and find seven patents you do infringe? Or do you want to make this easy and just pay us $20 million?" After a modest bit of negotiation, Sun cut IBM a check, and the blue suits went to the next company on their hit list.

In corporate America, this type of shakedown is repeated weekly. The patent as stimulant to invention has long since given way to the patent as blunt instrument for establishing an innovation stranglehold.


Also, please read up on the studies at:

http://swpat.ffii.org/archive/mirror/impact/index.en.html

Finally, I myself am a software developer. Shouldn't I know?

Well Europe can get over it.

Oh yeah, and there even is one made by "the" incarnation of the american dream himself, the (in)famous BILL GATES!!!

(Bill Gates 1991: Patents exclude competitors, lead industry to standstill
Lessig 2002-07-24: Keynote to OSCON
This was quoted by Fred Warshofsky in "The Patent Wars" of 1994. The text is from an internal memo written by Bill Gates to his staff. Part of has appeared in another Gates memos.)

If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors.


I think this pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

fer feck sake! i signed the petition!

Well Europe can get over it.
How so? At the moment, america is trying to cope with what unlimited patentability has dlready done to it's industry. If Europe goes the same way, chances are slim that America will ever get back to a useful patent system. If, however, Europe does resist the big money to impose it's wishes in it, America would have at hands all the good arguments that lead to Europe's decision. IF europe decides wisely, that is...

fer feck sake! i signed the petition!
I didn't mean to insult you. If I did, please accept my apologies.

Thanks for signing the petition!

BUMP

BUMP

BUMP! We must take action NOW! It's not that hard!

http://www.ffii.org/ffii-cgi/aktiv?f=euparl&l=en

Oh, come on, people! This is your chance to have a say in EU politics! It's the real thing, so don't let this opportunity pass! It's even easier than voting!

BUMP! It's time to act! Only 5 days left!

http://webshop.ffii.org/webshop_small.jpg

1. Webshop: Selling things over a network using a server, client and payment processor, or using a client and a server - EP803105 and EP738446
2. Order by cell phone: Selling over a mobile phone network - EP1090494
3. Shopping cart: Electronic shopping cart - EP807891 and EP784279
4. [CDs] [Films] [Books]: Tabbed palettes - EP689133
5. Picture link: Preview window - EP537100
6. View/download film: Video data distribution through the web - EP933892
7. View film: Video streaming ("segmented video on-demand") - EP633694
8. MP3-format: Audio compression format, covered by numerous patents, e.g. EP287578
9. Credit card: Pay using credit card via the Internet - EP820620 and EP779587
10. Gift: Order a gift for someone via the Internet by providing his/her email address - EP927945 (note: the claims on the target page are less broad than the eventually granted claims in the B1 form of the patent)
11. Request loan: Automated loan application - EP715740
12. VISA: Digital signature in graphic to show that the shop is approved for receiving VISA payments - EP798657
13. Send offers: Send offers in response to request - EP986016
14. Send to vendor: Reroute incoming orders to a vendor - EP217308
15. Support database: Network support system using databases - EP673135
16. Preview chapters: Use of TV as metaphor for selecting different video fragments - EP670652
17. Ladybug image: JPEG format - EP266049
18. Related results: Show related results if customer likes the current ones - EP628919
19. Rebate code: Allow rebate codes to be entered by customers - EP370847
20. Burn at shop: Material reproduction of information stored at remote location - EP195098

BUMP!

It's sad to see that a thread called "Useless Facts" gets more attention than EU politics. I now understand why politics increasingly fail to address the peoples needs: because the people simply don't care about what happens to them. This is exactly why politicians can get away with corruption and selfishness: because the people don't use the power they have been given by those who fought for democracy! They even fail to do the most basic things to ensure the system serves them and not some few money-grabbing, corrupt politicians and companies! People always moan "politics doesn't care for us", but fact is, they don't care to make politics care for them! Not even if their future gets screwed do they spend the two minutes to use the democratic power they (still) have!
While it is remotely understandable that people don't vote (probably because they have to leave the house for an hour), this I can't comprehend...

I understand that there are not many europeans in here (actually, much fewer than I thought), but still... :(

It is pretty nasty what is happening here. We see American pharmaceutical companies copywriting genetic codes nowadays. Having read the sources, I am against this.
(Sorry for being so late Zhudor.)
I'll sign the petition, and encourage others to do the same.

@ Jordaxia: Cool, thank you very much! (No problem that you're a little late!)
Gee, I don't want to have to pay license fees for copying or using my own genetic code.

Oh yeah, and there even is one made by "the" incarnation of the american dream himself, the (in)famous BILL GATES!!!

(Bill Gates 1991: Patents exclude competitors, lead industry to standstill
Lessig 2002-07-24: Keynote to OSCON
This was quoted by Fred Warshofsky in "The Patent Wars" of 1994. The text is from an internal memo written by Bill Gates to his staff. Part of has appeared in another Gates memos.)

If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors.


I think this pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
You're giving Bill Gates too little credit. He was one of the first to invent a major operating system, and the patent didn't go to his employer at the time, IBM. By the time Microsoft was launched, he was an industry leader. There's a reason for the lack of competition in the software field. Microsoft has just been too good of a company, or at least back in its heyday in the nineties. Windows 95 was revolutionary, as was 98 and XP. Longhorn is destined for the shitter. But Microsoft has made some very good products that someone without much knowledge of a computer can use.
I don't care what you want to say about this patent issue. Quite frankly, I don't know enough to comment directly on the issue. But please, don't demonize Bill Gates. He's a wonderful man that examplifies the American dream, and from what I hear, he's extremely generous.

Actually, gates bought Dos from some guy, took all the credit for it, then went on to make Windows.

There is one thing that is going through the (American) courts at the moment concerning Microsoft.
This is what I can make of it.
Microsoft gives Media Player away with every copy of Windows free.
companies want to charge people to use their version of media player, so microsoft giving it away is unnaceptable to them. They bring up a court case to force microsoft to stop giving away this software so that they can charge for it. Am I right?
Please don't start a big discussion about this. A yes or no will do for now. It's not the thread to do it.
If somehow you want to continue this discussion that I just started, make a seperate thread, and I'll likely be along tomorrow.

Back on this threads topic, it's very poor to see how few people care what happens. Nobody is even disagreeing, so you have to assume that people don't care, which is never a good thing.

OK, just as Jordaxia (you were faster than me :)) I don't wish to let this thread degrade into a flamewar or a discussion on Microsofts products so I'm not going to comment on this here, sorry.

You may, however, read my comment in the thread "The Microsoft Discussion" that I've just opened. Even if you don't agree with me there please consider what I have persented here as they're entirely different things, OK?

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145040

Jordaxia, this is not entirely true, but see the other thread for the discussion (as you already indicated).

Desperate BUMP! :(

BUMPed again...

Only 4 days left.

BUMP time is against us.

Actually, gates bought Dos from some guy, took all the credit for it, then went on to make Windows.

There is one thing that is going through the (American) courts at the moment concerning Microsoft.
This is what I can make of it.
Microsoft gives Media Player away with every copy of Windows free.
companies want to charge people to use their version of media player, so microsoft giving it away is unnaceptable to them. They bring up a court case to force microsoft to stop giving away this software so that they can charge for it. Am I right?
Please don't start a big discussion about this. A yes or no will do for now. It's not the thread to do it.
If somehow you want to continue this discussion that I just started, make a seperate thread, and I'll likely be along tomorrow.

Back on this threads topic, it's very poor to see how few people care what happens. Nobody is even disagreeing, so you have to assume that people don't care, which is never a good thing.
You must be thinking of Paul Allen, Gate's best friend and cofounder of Microsoft. Allen never gets much credit, and he prefers it that way. He actually just retired as president of one of the more profitable companies in Microsoft.
As for the lawsuit against Microsoft. I don't know what it's about this time. It's probably, however, routine. Companies are always taken to court for one thing or another, be it trivial or monumental. Microsoft is probably more closely watched because of that anti trust lawsuit. I don't know what became of that, but whatever happened, it certainly didn't hurt them like it hurt AT&T.

Purly Euclid, the Microsoft discussion was relocated to

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145040

Despite few attention, I'd like this thread to stay on topic so that the attention it does get will not be distracted.

BUMP...

BUMP...

KICK :D

BUMP...

KICK :D
Whoa! :shock: :lol:

OTOH: only 3 days left. :(

BUMP!

BUMP

*sigh*

It's too bad I'm not a Euro citizen to sign this petition. This type of thing (unlimited patenting) is despicable. :(

Thanks for reading anyway. Hopefully we'll be able to stop it from happening. It's going to be tough, though.

Therefore, I'm going to continue BUMPing this thread to reach more of the EU citizens on the board...

If any non-european reader knows some europeans, please point them to this thread or the ffii site, OK?

http://swpat.ffii.org

BUMP

BUMP! Only 2 days left!

bump
one day left

i signed a petition

Cool, thanks! :)

The time is close...

BUMP! No time to be lost!

BUMP!

BUMP This is the last day!

Not good. I hope it doesn't go through. urgh, a copyright system like America. I was mocking it recently.

The time is now!

Here's a quick info on todays meeting:
http://kwiki.ffii.org/index.cgi?ConsFaq0405En

It must not be accepted!

@Jordaxia: Yes, the patent system in America has indeed become the effective replacement of the copyright system. If that's going to happen in Europe, it's either work for Microsoft or, well, quit computers, basically, since the EPO's proposal is even more drastic than the (current) american patent law. :(

More drastic? How is that possible?

It is possible to even patent data structures, which IIRC is (currently) not possible in America. Things like that.

Oh, and, we lost. Money and corruption won another time. Brave new world.

pffft. Stupid law. Any way to change it in the future, maybe scrap it, or are we stuck with it.

Well whatever, just move your internet hosting server to some unknown pacific islands and just write your code however the fvck you want it to be written.

The law might be able to be scrapped, but this will be very hard. It's going to be a ping-ponging between parliament and council. However, the parliament, unlike the council, will need an absolute or even 2/3 majority to not pass it, i.e. to send it back for a rewrite. If after some fixed number of rewrites no consensus is found, there will be a hardcore dabate which will try to find a compromise. If none is found, the whole project might be scrapped entirely. That would be the best possible result that might be achieved. :(