NationStates Jolt Archive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By SHARON CHURCHER in Fort Ashby

May 7, 2004


POINTING crudely at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi, the petite brunette with a cigarette hanging from her lips epitomised America's shame over revelations US soldiers routinely tortured inmates at Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad.


Lynndie England, 21, a rail worker's daughter, comes from a trailer park in Fort Ashby, West Virginia, which locals proudly call "a backwoods world".

She faces a court martial, but at home she is toasted as a hero.


At the dingy Corner Club Saloon they think she has done nothing wrong.


"A lot of people here think they ought to just blow up the whole of Iraq," Colleen Kesner said.


"To the country boys here, if you're a different nationality, a different race, you're sub-human. That's the way girls like Lynndie are raised.


"Tormenting Iraqis, in her mind, would be no different from shooting a turkey. Every season here you're hunting something. Over there, they're hunting Iraqis."


In Fort Ashby, in the isolated Appalachian mountains 260km west of Washington, the poor, barely-educated and almost all-white population talk openly about an active Ku Klux Klan presence.


There is little understanding of the issues in Iraq and less of why photographs showing soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company, mostly from around Fort Ashby, abusing prisoners has caused a furore.


Like many, England signed up to make money and see the world. After her tour of duty, she planned to settle down and marry her first love, Charles Graner.


Down a dirt track at the edge of town, in the trailer where England grew up, her mother Terrie dismissed the allegations against her daughter as unfair.


"They were just doing stupid kid things, pranks. And what the Iraqis do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, do they apply to everybody or just us?" she asked.


She said she didn't know where her daughter was being held, but had spoken to her on the phone.


"She told me nothing happened which wasn't ordered by higher up," she said.


"They are trying to pin all of this on the lower ranks. My daughter was just following orders. I think there's a conspiracy. "


A colleague of Lynndie's father said people in Fort Ashby were sick of the whingeing.


"We just had an 18-year-old from round here killed by the Iraqis," he said.


"We went there to help the jackasses and they started blowing us up. Lynndie didn't kill 'em, she didn't cut 'em up. She should have shot some of the suckers."


Six soldiers from the 372nd are facing court-martial.


The commander of the prison service in Iraq, Brigadier-General Janis Karpinski, 50, has been suspended from duty and is expected to be charged.


Colleagues of the tough, super-fit officer last night described her as a woman with one mission – to raise her own profile.


Sources also said soldiers at Abu Ghraib, where Saddam Hussein was held after his capture, were often drunk – including when the shocking pictures were taken.


One colleague said: "Janis sees herself as making way for women to get to the top in the US Army. But many of her soldiers said she had been promoted beyond her ability because she was a woman.


"She was out of her depth and on a mission to raise her own profile. Now, she ll be forced to quit.


"She should have been aware what her troops were doing, but she wasn't."


Another soldier facing charges is Staff Sergeant Ivan Chip Frederick, 37, of Dillwyn, Virginia.


His father, Ivan Frederick, 76, said his son, an ex-prison guard, sent him a journal outlining the barbaric treatment of Iraqi PoWs.


He said his son was a scapegoat.


"He was unhappy with what he saw. There is no way Chip would do these things unless he was ordered to do," Mr Frederick said.


Pentagon officials have confirmed that other alleged incidents of torture under Brig-General Karpinski's regime were being investigated.


A military source said: "The word is that she was told it would be beneficial if the prisoners were willing to talk.


"Let's just say a blind eye was turned to certain events."


http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:shock:

This only confirms my suspicion that there is an element of racism in the equivocal response to these events in America.

Wonderful. Once again the slack-jawed yokel hillbillies are making an excellent name for themselves while tarnishing the whole rest of the country. I'm sure there MotherWives must be proud.

Wonderful. Once again the slack-jawed yokel hillbillies are making an excellent name for themselves while tarnishing the whole rest of the country. I'm sure there MotherWives must be proud.Hmm... Do you suppose these throwbacks are the root of the term motherf^<ker came from? Only kidding! I am sure their MotherWife is a fine example of AppalAtian womanhood.

They're called "Rednecks"... :lol: No they're not. An appleknocker is a redneck in training. A redneck is a hillbilly in training. These are hillbillies!

snip ..."She faces a court martial, but at home she is toasted as a hero. "Ah, I can see them all now, mason jars held high . . . Chester squealing like a pig to the amusement of them all.

This only confirms my suspicion that there is an element of racism in the equivocal response to these events in America.Yes, TC - we are all a nation of racist, hillbillies.

Seriously, get a clue. You speak as though all you use for your concept of America is FoxNews and swear all 300 million of us are that Aussie Rupert Murdoch's zomboids. I know you must get CNN too. Hell even Afghanistan gets that. Why not log on to some online publications like the NY Times, The Washington Post, The LA Times to try and get some kind of awareness that the response is anything but equivocal or muted.

Over here it is the lead story in the media every single broadcast. Over here it appears that the Secretary of Defense, Donald Runsfeld, will soon be sipping Mai Tai's somewhere. Over here senior level Army brass will be taking the fall. Over here it is topic one in conversations. But then I use observation of facts as a basis for my comments. Not whole cloth spun to suit my fanciful preconcieved notions.

:shock:

What less can we expect from a newbie with the name "Bushhater"?

This topic has been officially marked...

[B.S.]

Case closed

Yes, TC - we are all a nation of racist, hillbillies.
I did not say all. But articles such as these do in all fairness confirm my impression that small town America is still stuck firmly in the past when it comes to some attitudes.

Seriously, get a clue. You speak as though all you use for your concept of America is FoxNews and swear all 300 million of us are that Aussie Rupert Murdoch's zomboids.
It is a fair reflection of the lowest common denominator. The viewing figures speak for themselves. It would not be so popular if the views expressed did not enjoy popular support.

I know you must get CNN too. Hell even Afghanistan gets that. Why not log on to some online publications like the NY Times, The Washington Post, The LA Times to try and get some kind of awareness that the response is anything but equivocal or muted.
I agree, there has been a range of opinion expressed. But the balance of opinion seems to be that this is an isolated incident, and not a failure of policy as a whole. And the loudest voices are those expressing shock at how bad America looks as a result, with no further argument, rather than those focusing on where the changes must be made. Embarrassment simply does not cut it.

Over here it is the lead story in the media every single broadcast. Over here it appears that the Secretary of Defense, Donald Runsfeld, will soon be sipping Mai Tai's somewhere. Over here senior level Army brass will be taking the fall. Over here it is topic one in conversations. But then I use observation of facts as a basis for my comments. Not whole cloth spun to suit my fanciful preconcieved notions.
I am afraid I must dispute this. From what I have seen so far, I do not think any senior figure will be punished. The fallout is being directed squarely at the small group of low-ranking people known to be involved, and I have seen hardly a word come out of the American press which criticises the whole culture behind military intelligence operations, the manner in which prisoners are routinely handled.

The problem I have with all this is that it is the logical conclusion of a POW treatment policy which has as its aim the "softening up" of prisoners for the purposes of extraction of intelligence, rather than assessing their involvement and getting them out of the relevant area for the duration of hostilities. The problem I have with this is that mistreatment of prisoners is the logical means to an end clearly stated by the US military. The military, in other words, deliberately acting in a manner which encourages mistreatment of prisoners. This is the wider context of this scandal. But most of what I see in the American media, and I am not just talking about Fox, is vain outpourings over how this makes America look.

I come from this area...the West Virginia border is not that far from the border of the Qualla Reservation of Tennessee/North Carolina....Appalachia is rooted in a different time...they..like my people believe in the "eye for an eye" principle..they are a patriotic but simple folk for the most part...they do not see the political landscape, all they know is that their children have gone off to war to fight and die for what they believe is freedom..the kind they enjoy..to them they are confused over why some Iraqis wouldn't want to be free like them...to them this is simple...Saddam bad..we good...and muslim fanatics wish to kill everyone who isn't like them..

I have to admit to a certain twinge of familiarity....I was raised in the traditional mores of my tribe...even though we have been given the title of "One of the Five Civilized Nations" and we've long ago assimilated into the American subculture there are still aspects of us that to most whites are totally alien...certainly to some of the tribes out west.....I believe in an eye for an eye...I've never been a huge fan of Gandhi..never been a pacifist..always have believed that force is the ultimate arbitrator . I have no problem with being considered backwards or primitive..nor do many of those people in Appalachia..they are content with whom they are and will gladly tell you to F*** off if you try to tell them anything different.

A bit of a liability when it comes to peacekeeping, then.

This only confirms my suspicion that there is an element of racism in the equivocal response to these events in America.
This is why, however, Miss England's behavior can't represent the whole army. Anywhere in West Virginia is bound to be hicksville, and is subject to God knows what. Perhaps this means there's a demographic problem in the military, with those more easily prone to having closed minds (rural residents, mostly) are overrepresented in the military. In any case, towns like those will be the first to loose their electricity :D .

This is why, however, Miss England's behavior can't represent the whole army. Anywhere in West Virginia is bound to be hicksville, and is subject to God knows what. Perhaps this means there's a demographic problem in the military, with those more easily prone to having closed minds (rural residents, mostly) are overrepresented in the military. In any case, towns like those will be the first to loose their electricity :D .
True, it is often said that small-town America is over-represented in the US military because in so many cases it is the only employer, and the only opportunity young people have of leaving. Quite tragic then, for the US to be over-represented by people nearly as prejudiced as those they are fighting.

This is why, however, Miss England's behavior can't represent the whole army. Anywhere in West Virginia is bound to be hicksville, and is subject to God knows what. Perhaps this means there's a demographic problem in the military, with those more easily prone to having closed minds (rural residents, mostly) are overrepresented in the military. In any case, towns like those will be the first to loose their electricity :D .
True, it is often said that small-town America is over-represented in the US military because in so many cases it is the only employer, and the only opportunity young people have of leaving. Quite tragic then, for the US to be over-represented by people nearly as prejudiced as those they are fighting.
It's either that or the draft, really. I think, however, that immigrants will start signing up for soldiers more because, as Bush said in an executive order, all immigrants in the military will recieve US citizenship. They can't be prejudice, otherwise they have no business migrating anywhere. However, that order came in the summer of 2002, too late for them to join for Afghanistan and too little time for them to train for Iraq (at least for the first troop rotation).

Yes, TC - we are all a nation of racist, hillbillies.I did not say all. But articles such as these do in all fairness confirm my impression that small town America is still stuck firmly in the past when it comes to some attitudes.Your implication was clear. You said, "This only confirms my suspicion that there is an element of racism in the equivocal response to these events in America." What was partial was that racism was "an element" but you implicated "America" which can only mean in it's entirety. Otherwise you would have refined that thought by adding say the term 'media' or 'administration. Had you said media or administration then we could pursue that track (see below).

Seriously, get a clue. You speak as though all you use for your concept of America is FoxNews and swear all 300 million of us are that Aussie Rupert Murdoch's zomboids.It is a fair reflection of the lowest common denominator. The viewing figures speak for themselves. It would not be so popular if the views expressed did not enjoy popular support.To quote Benjamin Disraeli, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." Actually it is hardly representative of anything significant. Here is one for you, "Fox’s Bill O’Reilly, the king of prime time cable, plays the angry-white-male defender of commonsensical values to an audience {of}(2.4 million)." SOURCE (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14997)2.4 million?! Hardly a majority by any standard. Heck, not even a significant minority in a nation of 300 million.
I know you must get CNN too. Hell even Afghanistan gets that. Why not log on to some online publications like the NY Times, The Washington Post, The LA Times to try and get some kind of awareness that the response is anything but equivocal or muted.I agree, there has been a range of opinion expressed. But the balance of opinion seems to be that this is an isolated incident, and not a failure of policy as a whole. And the loudest voices are those expressing shock at how bad America looks as a result, with no further argument, rather than those focusing on where the changes must be made. Embarrassment simply does not cut it. Over here we call what you said editorial comment, not fact. The fact is that it is exactly that kind of "embarrassment" that can determine policy, and - dare I say it - elections.

Over here it is the lead story in the media every single broadcast. Over here it appears that the Secretary of Defense, Donald Runsfeld, will soon be sipping Mai Tai's somewhere. Over here senior level Army brass will be taking the fall. Over here it is topic one in conversations. But then I use observation of facts as a basis for my comments. Not whole cloth spun to suit my fanciful preconcieved notions.I am afraid I must dispute this. From what I have seen so far, I do not think any senior figure will be punished. The fallout is being directed squarely at the small group of low-ranking people known to be involved, and I have seen hardly a word come out of the American press which criticises the whole culture behind military intelligence operations, the manner in which prisoners are routinely handled. You are simply behind the curve on this. It has grown considerably in the past few days. Keep an eye out. Rumsfield is toast.

The problem I have with all this is that it is the logical conclusion of a POW treatment policy which has as its aim the "softening up" of prisoners for the purposes of extraction of intelligence, rather than assessing their involvement and getting them out of the relevant area for the duration of hostilities. The problem I have with this is that mistreatment of prisoners is the logical means to an end clearly stated by the US military. The military, in other words, deliberately acting in a manner which encourages mistreatment of prisoners. This is the wider context of this scandal. But most of what I see in the American media, and I am not just talking about Fox, is vain outpourings over how this makes America look.There is a measure of concern in that and yes, some of it is as you say. A deeply felt personal shame and sense of betrayal by those who purpertrated these acts. On another level though it goes to the heart of why we are there and what it is we are accomplishing not to mention what we can now reasonably hope to accomplish. Beyond Iraq, there is a serious blow to our anti-terror efforts throughout the world. I stand by what I have said. There is much being said that you are not hearing. Perhaps it requires a distinctly American ear.

:shock:

There is much being said that you are not hearing. Perhaps it requires a distinctly American ear.

:shock:
Perhaps so. After all, I can only watch from outside.

Incidentally, what is the purpose of the shocked smiley?

There is much being said that you are not hearing. Perhaps it requires a distinctly American ear.

:shock:
Perhaps so. After all, I can only watch from outside.

Incidentally, what is the purpose of the shocked smiley?

:shock: He's The Slap Happy Lunatic's mascot. Kinda looks slap happy, eh?

:shock: He's The Slap Happy Lunatic's mascot. Kinda looks slap happy, eh?
Hehehe. I prefer my pwn:

http://www.bigwig.net/~bbw10606/pwned.gif

This is personally offensive to me. First of all, not all of West Virginia is "hicksville." I happen to live in Charleston, West Virginia. We are a rather cosmopolitan area of 252,000 people. While not the melting pot that Georgia or California or other states are, we are far from being "all-white." In fact, my area is the most racially diverse in the entire state. The only Klan that we see here is on the news when they are acting up somewhere else in the country. Yes, I've been to Fort Ashby, and its disappointing to see their name tarnished by the acts of one person.

I'm severely disappointed in the reporting of the Guardian especially. They had their story before they got here and just decided to label every one of us as some backwoods yokels who wouldn't know culture if it jumped up and bit them in the ass. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by the reporting of those who still believe the idiotic stories of Hatfield and McCoy while failing to ever have read the true happenings. The people quoted from Fort Ashby have all come forward to say that what was printed was not what they said. But why should the world care? You have your story about our state and could care less whether its factual or not.

My state has a proud history of serving the United States military. More citizens of West Virginia per capita have served in the military than any other state in this nation. This has nothing to do with poverty, a way out, or anything else. It is pride. I proudly served during the Gulf War. I have friends serving today in every branch of the Armed Forces. I didn't need an "escape." I graduated with a Master's Degree in Psychology.

Labelling an area for the deeds of one person is asinine. Less than a year ago the world media flocked to the other side of my state to cover Jessica Lynch and our "backwoods yokels" were labelled uber-patriots who were immensely proud of their country. Even then, we were labelled. Poor Jessica Lynch, she had to serve so she could attend college. Its easy to take a swipe at West Virginia without knowing anything about us. The truth is, you'll find those people here. You'll find them everywhere else in the world as well. We don't hold sole rights to stupidity and intolerance. We aren't uber-patriots and we aren't gun-toting nutjobs looking to kill anyone with skin darker than our own. We are Americans, no more, no less.

Ms. England will stand responsible for what she's done. As should those who gave the orders. Her town, her neighbors, her relatives do not stand guilty as well just due to association. Anyone even mention that she's not even from West Virginia or does that not make a good story?

My state has a proud history of serving the United States military. More citizens of West Virginia per capita have served in the military than any other state in this nation.
I read in the New York Times a month ago that that title actually goes to Alaska, by a pretty big margin.

No, West Virginia earns that title for every conflict this country has fought since the Civil War.

:shock: He's The Slap Happy Lunatic's mascot. Kinda looks slap happy, eh?
Hehehe. I prefer my pwn:

http://www.bigwig.net/~bbw10606/pwned.gif

Nice pawn, I met a couple like that in my life. Damn muggers.

:shock:

This is personally offensive to me. First of all, not all of West Virginia is "hicksville." I happen to live in Charleston, West Virginia. We are a rather cosmopolitan area of 252,000 people. While not the melting pot that Georgia or California or other states are, we are far from being "all-white." In fact, my area is the most racially diverse in the entire state. The only Klan that we see here is on the news when they are acting up somewhere else in the country. Yes, I've been to Fort Ashby, and its disappointing to see their name tarnished by the acts of one person.

I'm severely disappointed in the reporting of the Guardian especially. They had their story before they got here and just decided to label every one of us as some backwoods yokels who wouldn't know culture if it jumped up and bit them in the ass. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by the reporting of those who still believe the idiotic stories of Hatfield and McCoy while failing to ever have read the true happenings. The people quoted from Fort Ashby have all come forward to say that what was printed was not what they said. But why should the world care? You have your story about our state and could care less whether its factual or not.

My state has a proud history of serving the United States military. More citizens of West Virginia per capita have served in the military than any other state in this nation. This has nothing to do with poverty, a way out, or anything else. It is pride. I proudly served during the Gulf War. I have friends serving today in every branch of the Armed Forces. I didn't need an "escape." I graduated with a Master's Degree in Psychology.

Labelling an area for the deeds of one person is asinine. Less than a year ago the world media flocked to the other side of my state to cover Jessica Lynch and our "backwoods yokels" were labelled uber-patriots who were immensely proud of their country. Even then, we were labelled. Poor Jessica Lynch, she had to serve so she could attend college. Its easy to take a swipe at West Virginia without knowing anything about us. The truth is, you'll find those people here. You'll find them everywhere else in the world as well. We don't hold sole rights to stupidity and intolerance. We aren't uber-patriots and we aren't gun-toting nutjobs looking to kill anyone with skin darker than our own. We are Americans, no more, no less.

Ms. England will stand responsible for what she's done. As should those who gave the orders. Her town, her neighbors, her relatives do not stand guilty as well just due to association. Anyone even mention that she's not even from West Virginia or does that not make a good story?

Amen. But I was commenting on the mentality which is undeniably alive and well in that neck of the woods. Not everyone is a hillbilly or even a redneck. But I have friends from the area and they are the ones who tell the tales. I can certainly see where things said in a pub at night might be thought the better of the next day. Did a verifiable source report those statements from the people quoted in that article by Sharon Churcher?

:shock: