NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08PRIS.html

Mistreatment of Prisoners Is Called Routine in U.S.
By FOX BUTTERFIELD

Published: May 8, 2004

Physical and sexual abuse of prisoners, similar to what has been uncovered in Iraq, takes place in American prisons with little public knowledge or concern, according to corrections officials, inmates and human rights advocates.

In Pennsylvania and some other states, inmates are routinely stripped in front of other inmates before being moved to a new prison or a new unit within their prison. In Arizona, male inmates at the Maricopa County jail in Phoenix are made to wear women's pink underwear as a form of humiliation.

At Virginia's Wallens Ridge maximum security prison, new inmates have reported being forced to wear black hoods, in theory to keep them from spitting on guards, and said they were often beaten and cursed at by guards and made to crawl.

The corrections experts say that some of the worst abuses have occurred in Texas, whose prisons were under a federal consent decree during much of the time President Bush was governor because of crowding and violence by guards against inmates. Judge William Wayne Justice of Federal District Court imposed the decree after finding that guards were allowing inmate gang leaders to buy and sell other inmates as slaves for sex.

The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.

The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country's criminal justice system....

(more available here (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=04/05/09/1135738) without registering)

obviously

Well I can call you anything, does it mean it's true? Even if I wrote a long paragraph on it?

However, this may be true. Yet it's only a small percentage

I can only assume this ties into the whole iraq thing...

Not that I condone it or anything... but other than this, what IS the best way to intimidate a sociopath, or worse yet someone who is convinced that they will be rewarded in the afterlife for blowing themselves up?

In the states, making someone afraid of being some other guy's b!tch is pretty scary. And in Arab nations, where females are inferior and weak, what better way to break a man's mind than to have him TREATED as weak and inferior, and as an arab woman, then on top of that to be paraded around in front of inmates by a FEMALE guard?

However, this may be true. Yet it's only a small percentage

abuse is rampant and systemic in the prison-industrial system. it happens everywhere all the time. amnesty international regularly releases reports condemning the us justice system. this is just the ny times catching up.

What about those Iraqi civilians who have been captured by the US, abused and then released later without charges because they never did anything illegal in the first place?

What about those Iraqi civilians who have been captured by the US, abused and then released later without charges because they never did anything illegal in the first place?uhh... never heard nothin about that... source?

What about those Iraqi civilians who have been captured by the US, abused and then released later without charges because they never did anything illegal in the first place?uhh... never heard nothin about that... source?

I read some comments in my local paper made by one of them men shown in the photos that were recently released. He said that at first he viewed the Americans as liberators, but now wants them gone because at least when Saddams lot tortured him they never striped him naked which he found highly shameful.

I can only assume this ties into the whole iraq thing...

Not that I condone it or anything... but other than this, what IS the best way to intimidate a sociopath, or worse yet someone who is convinced that they will be rewarded in the afterlife for blowing themselves up?

In the states, making someone afraid of being some other guy's b!tch is pretty scary. And in Arab nations, where females are inferior and weak, what better way to break a man's mind than to have him TREATED as weak and inferior, and as an arab woman, then on top of that to be paraded around in front of inmates by a FEMALE guard?

beyond questions of extra-judicial cruel and unusual punishments, that doesn't address the actual abuses talked about in the article. you did read it, didn't you?

Who reads paragraphs after TRA came into town?

What about those Iraqi civilians who have been captured by the US, abused and then released later without charges because they never did anything illegal in the first place?uhh... never heard nothin about that... source?

I read some comments in my local paper made by one of them men shown in the photos that were recently released. He said that at first he viewed the Americans as liberators, but now wants them gone because at least when Saddams lot tortured him they never striped him naked which he found highly shameful.If that was one bit credible, it would have been a lot more public... as I have heard nothing of it from the liberal media, I'm going to disregard that until you show me a source... sorry man.

If it were true, that would be even more shameful... because you go from one motive for a crime to another... punishment for the abusers is still the same, and I'm all for it... but i was, and still am under the impression that they did it out of anger towards the crimes of the insurgents at the prison.

If they were doing this to innocents, that just pisses me off.

I'll bet the US is glad it didn't ratify the Statute of Rome now

mutter mutter mutter....

________________________

I can only assume this ties into the whole iraq thing...

Not that I condone it or anything... but other than this, what IS the best way to intimidate a sociopath, or worse yet someone who is convinced that they will be rewarded in the afterlife for blowing themselves up?

In the states, making someone afraid of being some other guy's b!tch is pretty scary. And in Arab nations, where females are inferior and weak, what better way to break a man's mind than to have him TREATED as weak and inferior, and as an arab woman, then on top of that to be paraded around in front of inmates by a FEMALE guard?

beyond questions of extra-judicial cruel and unusual punishments, that doesn't address the actual abuses talked about in the article. you did read it, didn't you?Yes, and as for the matter of the article itself, I strongly believe these matters should be dealt with immediately, no questions.

Maybe i'm paranoid, but does no one else question the fact that these soldiers were stupid enough to take pictures of this, as well as distribute these pictures to someone who let them leak to the media? It smacks of a propaganda campaign to me.

I'm utterly unsurprised.

Poster, please post analysis with your article or don't post it at all. Need I remind you that TRA got t3h b4nn1n4t3|) for doing the same thing?

Maybe i'm paranoid, but does no one else question the fact that these soldiers were stupid enough to take pictures of this, as well as distribute these pictures to someone who let them leak to the media? It smacks of a propaganda campaign to me.That's a question on everyone's mind.

THere are several theories... the wackiest being that anti-war protestors staged this somehow to give the US a bad rep... lol

I'm utterly unsurprised.

Poster, please post analysis with your article or don't post it at all. Need I remind you that TRA got t3h b4nn1n4t3|) for doing the same thing?TRA got DEATed for spamming. He posted uncommented newspaper articles like 20 times a day.

And in Arab nations, where females are inferior and weak, what better way to break a man's mind than to have him TREATED as weak and inferior, and as an arab woman, then on top of that to be paraded around in front of inmates by a FEMALE guard?Or, from a more reasonable perspective, what better way to ensure that no matter what the US does in regards to Iraq, we'll be hated not only by Iraqis, but by the entire Arab world. Jesus Christ--remember the whole bit about winning their hearts and minds? All we're doing is winning their undying hatred. Try to think about the larger picture sometimes.

Maybe i'm paranoid, but does no one else question the fact that these soldiers were stupid enough to take pictures of this, as well as distribute these pictures to someone who let them leak to the media? It smacks of a propaganda campaign to me.That's a question on everyone's mind.

THere are several theories... the wackiest being that anti-war protestors staged this somehow to give the US a bad rep... lol
Personally, two ideas come to mind.

1. Fellow soldiers with personal grudges against one or more of the involved soldiers arranged this somehow, or merely arranged the leaking or even the taking of the photos.

2. Politicians seeking to discredit those supporting the war and occupation with some measure of influence or a personal connection in the armed forces really did arrange for someone to order these soldiers to do this.

Maybe i'm paranoid, but does no one else question the fact that these soldiers were stupid enough to take pictures of this, as well as distribute these pictures to someone who let them leak to the media? It smacks of a propaganda campaign to me.That's a question on everyone's mind.

THere are several theories... the wackiest being that anti-war protestors staged this somehow to give the US a bad rep... lol
Personally, two ideas come to mind.

1. Fellow soldiers with personal grudges against one or more of the involved soldiers arranged this somehow, or merely arranged the leaking or even the taking of the photos.

2. Politicians seeking to discredit those supporting the war and occupation with some measure of influence or a personal connection in the armed forces really did arrange for someone to order these soldiers to do this.3. Someone in the background with a conscience spoke out?

Maybe i'm paranoid, but does no one else question the fact that these soldiers were stupid enough to take pictures of this, as well as distribute these pictures to someone who let them leak to the media? It smacks of a propaganda campaign to me.In at least one case--that of the person who turned the pictures over to the Army investigators--the guy was covering his own ass, which is perfectly understandable. And as to why the pics would be taken in the first place, when you're in that kind of stressful situation, you often make poor decisions. Realize that these pics were released to the Army first, and then to the press. One soldier's uncle released them to 60 Minutes because he was afraid his nephew would take the fall with his fellow low ranking soldiers adn that the officers n charge would walk.

Poster, please post analysis with your article or don't post it at all. Need I remind you that TRA got t3h b4nn1n4t3|) for doing the same thing?

no, he got the deat for doing it too much in one day. we all get one. and what is there to analyze? other than the fact that this totally undermines the "they weren't trained prison guards" line.

3. Someone in the background with a conscience spoke out?Hard to believe that really... the most common mindset among soldiers, worldwide and throughout modern history; avoid blame. Anyone who squealed would get their name dragged through the mud during the process of trial, and would come out of it just as dirty as the people in the photos, even if they avoided prosecution.

3. Someone in the background with a conscience spoke out?Hard to believe that really... the most common mindset among soldiers, worldwide and throughout modern history; avoid blame. Anyone who squealed would get their name dragged through the mud during the process of trial, and would come out of it just as dirty as the people in the photos, even if they avoided prosecution.wtf? You honestly think that the stereotypical soldier is an amoral sociopath with nothing but killing on his mind?

Those guys make up 3-4% of the military, and the rest of the military gains their reputation.

Just because a few people do something, is no reason to indict the whole military.

3. Someone in the background with a conscience spoke out?Hard to believe that really... the most common mindset among soldiers, worldwide and throughout modern history; avoid blame. Anyone who squealed would get their name dragged through the mud during the process of trial, and would come out of it just as dirty as the people in the photos, even if they avoided prosecution.wtf? You honestly think that the stereotypical soldier is an amoral sociopath with nothing but killing on his mind?

Those guys make up 3-4% of the military, and the rest of the military gains their reputation.

Just because a few people do something, is no reason to indict the whole military.

Of course it isn't. A good reason would be the military's response to those 3-4%. By all reports, the military did little about the many, many reports of abuse that were coming out of that prison last year, and let it fester. That's a good reason to indict the military.

In fact, there were reports even before Abu Ghraib--apparently there were reports of abuse from two earlier prison camps in Iraq. MSNBC.com is doing a three part series on it right now.

No, the typical soldier doesn't want trouble. He doesn't want to raise a fuss, he doesn't want to be noticed, he just wants to go another day without being shot, with a decent meal in his gut, and without a bunch of officers looking at him like he's going into the stewpot next. If a soldier sees something bad going on that isn't putting his fellow soldiers into danger, he'll probably ignore it. You may see this as immoral, but this is how a military man does, and even should, think most of the time. Thinking too morally when you spend your days shooting at people isn't the best course towards a happy outlook on life.

The only thing that has prevented me from foaming in the mouth over this is the White House's willingness to apologize and deal with the issue, at least to a token extent. For Saddam, it was a regular occurrence. For the United States, it is a tragedy. I suggest people bear this in mind.

/still going to try to kick Bush's arse out of office in November

In fact, there were reports even before Abu Ghraib--apparently there were reports of abuse from two earlier prison camps in Iraq. MSNBC.com is doing a three part series on it right now.

abuse and prisons go hand in hand everywhere. it pretty much just flows from the situation.

In fact, there were reports even before Abu Ghraib--apparently there were reports of abuse from two earlier prison camps in Iraq. MSNBC.com is doing a three part series on it right now.

abuse and prisons go hand in hand everywhere. it pretty much just flows from the situation.

That doesn't excuse the abuse. It also doesn't excuse lack of attention to the problem.

The only thing that has prevented me from foaming in the mouth over this is the White House's willingness to apologize and deal with the issue, at least to a token extent. For Saddam, it was a regular occurrence. For the United States, it is a tragedy. I suggest people bear this in mind.

except that abuse is systemic in domestic prisons here. appologies are free and don't mean shit.

What about the sudden appearance of obviously fake photos of British troops abusing prisoners??? Takes the heat off the US a bit......

abuse and prisons go hand in hand everywhere. it pretty much just flows from the situation.

That doesn't excuse the abuse. It also doesn't excuse lack of attention to the problem.

i am about the last person that will excuse prison abuse. just because i acknowledge that abuse is part and parcel of the prison system doesn't mean i accept its existence. i take the other approach entirely.

http://www.anarchistblackcross.org/abc/why.html

I can only assume this ties into the whole iraq thing...

Not that I condone it or anything... but other than this, what IS the best way to intimidate a sociopath, or worse yet someone who is convinced that they will be rewarded in the afterlife for blowing themselves up?

In the states, making someone afraid of being some other guy's b!tch is pretty scary. And in Arab nations, where females are inferior and weak, what better way to break a man's mind than to have him TREATED as weak and inferior, and as an arab woman, then on top of that to be paraded around in front of inmates by a FEMALE guard?

Given that many of these abuses were directed agains people who were just picked up in roadblock sweeps etc (i.e. they had no indicated ties to the resistance movement in Iraq) then I think your argument falls flat on it's face.

After all, you don't treat the suspected shoplifter awaiting preliminary hearing the same way you treat Jeffrey Dahmer after his conviction do you?

Not to mention that when you are in there promoting yourself as the Good Guys, you might just try and live up to it. If anything, you created more people who might look towards the afterlife rather than solve
-Z-

The only thing that has prevented me from foaming in the mouth over this is the White House's willingness to apologize and deal with the issue, at least to a token extent. For Saddam, it was a regular occurrence. For the United States, it is a tragedy. I suggest people bear this in mind.
Oh, I don't know about that. The locals in the home towns of the abusers seem to think they have done nothing wrong, and FOX News is trying to downplay the whole thing. This leads me to question how much of the outrage is genuine, and how much is provided simply because it is expected.

No, the typical soldier doesn't want trouble. He doesn't want to raise a fuss, he doesn't want to be noticed, he just wants to go another day without being shot, with a decent meal in his gut, and without a bunch of officers looking at him like he's going into the stewpot next. If a soldier sees something bad going on that isn't putting his fellow soldiers into danger, he'll probably ignore it. You may see this as immoral, but this is how a military man does, and even should, think most of the time. Thinking too morally when you spend your days shooting at people isn't the best course towards a happy outlook on life.

and you of course have done an in depth study, questioning thousands soldiers in the military. You must have to be able to make such wide sweeping generalizations as to what "a typical soldier" wants, or hell even what a typical soldier is. It's been my experience, that military personnel have as wide an array of ethical values and morals as the "general population", not that that makes me any kind of expert on military personnel, but I find myself hard pressed to take any large group of people, can classify any subset of them as "typical", and using that subset to define the "norm" of the whole, because almost certainly once you do, some other subset will rise up and perform some action completely opposite to your rash generalization, making you look like an idiot.

I find little difficulty in believing that a soldier, somewhere got his/her hands on the photos, and thought to themselves "Oh my god, this is insane and sickening", and turned them over to authorities or someone in charge, based strictly upon their own moral, or ethical code.

bump

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."—President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, Oct. 8, 2003

It's all horrible. My opinion about the prisons here in America is that if you commit a crime here, you should be able to take the occasional ass rape. Not saying it's okay, just saying that if you wanna land yourself in a place liek that, then you better be prepared. In Iraq, most of those soldiers didn't do anything, yet we torture them, and force them to sodomize each other. We don't even do that in our prisons.

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."—President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, Oct. 8, 2003

*wince* OUCH.

No, the typical soldier doesn't want trouble. He doesn't want to raise a fuss, he doesn't want to be noticed, he just wants to go another day without being shot, with a decent meal in his gut, and without a bunch of officers looking at him like he's going into the stewpot next. If a soldier sees something bad going on that isn't putting his fellow soldiers into danger, he'll probably ignore it. You may see this as immoral, but this is how a military man does, and even should, think most of the time. Thinking too morally when you spend your days shooting at people isn't the best course towards a happy outlook on life.
Do you even know a large number of soldiers?
Or are you just talking with no experience to back your mouth?

No.
You make a few too many assumptions here and display an utter lack of knowledge about the "typical" soldier.

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."—President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, Oct. 8, 2003
*wince* OUCH.
[Sympathetic wince] Yeah, that's gotta hurt! :o

Apparently (some US official on the CNN website) says that some of the photos and possibly video footage show rape and murder taking place. Other sources claim that children were also involved. Obviously, that stuff is not going to make it to the front pages, but if the media gets the opportunity to confirm the nature of this material, then that is going to underline this whole mess further.

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."—President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, Oct. 8, 2003

"umm, i meant free of saddam's torture chambers. and our fine upstanding americans have no need for rape rooms. that's what hallways are for."

Yawn, do I need to speak from knowing thousands of soldiers? No, but I do know quite a few, and they do admit to having, at least privately, just the attitude I describe.

My source for the psychology of soldiers? I study history people, that includes military history, and this attitude is present in every military throughout modern and quite a bit of ancient history. I suggest you pick up a book some time that isn't referred to as a "novel". A few good reads would be "Russia Against Japan 1904-1905: A New Look at the Russo-Japanese War", or the shorter but no less effective "Why Soldiers Don't Talk".

Yawn, do I need to speak from knowing thousands of soldiers? No, but I do know quite a few, and they do admit to having, at least privately, just the attitude I describe.

My source for the psychology of soldiers? I study history people, that includes military history, and this attitude is present in every military throughout modern and quite a bit of ancient history. I suggest you pick up a book some time that isn't referred to as a "novel". A few good reads would be "Russia Against Japan 1904-1905: A New Look at the Russo-Japanese War", or the shorter but no less effective "Why Soldiers Don't Talk".

You study history, oooo wow, I guess that makes you an expert then, and we should all just shut up now...Yawn back at ya

My point, is that you seem to have made a blanket statement regarding the actions, moral and values of all soldiers based upon, it would appear now, a couple of books you so condescendingly refer and talking to a few soldiers. Even if most soldiers won't talk about immoral activities occuring within the military, you can not use that as a blanket statement to discount any potential occurence of one actually doing so. The problem with rash generalizations (regardless of how much research one can produce to "prove" the claim), is that they invariably have exceptions to the rule. One thing your "history" lessons, and books on the Russian-Japanese fail to address.

By the way, nice job of trying to make yourself look like some kind of pretentious pinhead, helps your argument tremendously. Some of us do read more the just "novels", and your hardly the only person here to have studied history, so get off your high horse.

Yawn, do I need to speak from knowing thousands of soldiers? No, but I do know quite a few, and they do admit to having, at least privately, just the attitude I describe.

My source for the psychology of soldiers? I study history people, that includes military history, and this attitude is present in every military throughout modern and quite a bit of ancient history. I suggest you pick up a book some time that isn't referred to as a "novel". A few good reads would be "Russia Against Japan 1904-1905: A New Look at the Russo-Japanese War", or the shorter but no less effective "Why Soldiers Don't Talk".

You study history, oooo wow, I guess that makes you an expert then, and we should all just shut up now...Yawn back at ya

My point, is that you seem to have made a blanket statement regarding the actions, moral and values of all soldiers based upon, it would appear now, a couple of books you so condescendingly refer and talking to a few soldiers. Even if most soldiers won't talk about immoral activities occuring within the military, you can not use that as a blanket statement to discount any potential occurence of one actually doing so. The problem with rash generalizations (regardless of how much research one can produce to "prove" the claim), is that they invariably have exceptions to the rule. One thing your "history" lessons, and books on the Russian-Japanese fail to address.

By the way, nice job of trying to make yourself look like some kind of pretentious pinhead, helps your argument tremendously. Some of us do read more the just "novels", and your hardly the only person here to have studied history, so get off your high horse.

Yawn, do I need to speak from knowing thousands of soldiers? No, but I do know quite a few, and they do admit to having, at least privately, just the attitude I describe.

My source for the psychology of soldiers? I study history people, that includes military history, and this attitude is present in every military throughout modern and quite a bit of ancient history. I suggest you pick up a book some time that isn't referred to as a "novel". A few good reads would be "Russia Against Japan 1904-1905: A New Look at the Russo-Japanese War", or the shorter but no less effective "Why Soldiers Don't Talk".

You study history, oooo wow, I guess that makes you an expert then, and we should all just shut up now...Yawn back at ya

My point, is that you seem to have made a blanket statement regarding the actions, moral and values of all soldiers based upon, it would appear now, a couple of books you so condescendingly refer and talking to a few soldiers. Even if most soldiers won't talk about immoral activities occuring within the military, you can not use that as a blanket statement to discount any potential occurence of one actually doing so. The problem with rash generalizations (regardless of how much research one can produce to "prove" the claim), is that they invariably have exceptions to the rule. One thing your "history" lessons, and books on the Russian-Japanese fail to address.

By the way, nice job of trying to make yourself look like some kind of pretentious pinhead, helps your argument tremendously. Some of us do read more the just "novels", and your hardly the only person here to have studied history, so get off your high horse.

Yawn, do I need to speak from knowing thousands of soldiers? No, but I do know quite a few, and they do admit to having, at least privately, just the attitude I describe.

My source for the psychology of soldiers? I study history people, that includes military history, and this attitude is present in every military throughout modern and quite a bit of ancient history. I suggest you pick up a book some time that isn't referred to as a "novel". A few good reads would be "Russia Against Japan 1904-1905: A New Look at the Russo-Japanese War", or the shorter but no less effective "Why Soldiers Don't Talk".

You study history, oooo wow, I guess that makes you an expert then, and we should all just shut up now...Yawn back at ya

My point, is that you seem to have made a blanket statement regarding the actions, moral and values of all soldiers based upon, it would appear now, a couple of books you so condescendingly refer and talking to a few soldiers. Even if most soldiers won't talk about immoral activities occuring within the military, you can not use that as a blanket statement to discount any potential occurence of one actually doing so. The problem with rash generalizations (regardless of how much research one can produce to "prove" the claim), is that they invariably have exceptions to the rule. One thing your "history" lessons, and books on the Russian-Japanese fail to address.

By the way, nice job of trying to make yourself look like some kind of pretentious pinhead, helps your argument tremendously. Some of us do read more the just "novels", and your hardly the only person here to have studied history, so get off your high horse.

Nice ad hominem attacks, I guess that makes you right and makes my study invalid? Alrighty.

Nice ad hominem attacks, I guess that makes you right and makes my study invalid? Alrighty.

It's not the ad hominem attacks that make him right and your study invalid, it's your gross overgeneralization of an entire subculture based on nothing more than your personal experience and a limited amount of college study. I mean, really, your arrogance and elitism parallels anything I've seen yet, and I grew up with a pretty damn elitist bunch.

You apparently have never served in the military, and have little more on which to base your sweeping generalizations of everyone in the military than books written by men who themselves rarely went to war, and a few personal talks with some soldiers you claim to know. On that basis, you judge the psychology of an entire group of people. That's more than intellectually dishonest. It's just plain stupid.

You're making grand "Throughout history..." statements with little evidence other than "I've read it" and "but look at all the wars!" You expect people to be convinced that your misanthropy and your peculiar interpretation of the inner psychological lives of soldiers are correct based on little more than your own appeals to (vague) authority and your own ad hominem attacks on your critics. Your credibility, as a result, is functionally nil.

That is what makes your "study" invalid.

Yawn, do I need to speak from knowing thousands of soldiers? No, but I do know quite a few, and they do admit to having, at least privately, just the attitude I describe.

If they are admitting this privately, why are you revealing it?

[
If you take such pictures or get them because you wer there, would you give them to the media knowing that your fellow(?)soldiers would want revenge afterwards (if they can torture, then they they can also take revenge later).
Not only that, as a soldier in the area, you know what those muslim extremist fanatics over there are like. So you also know that if they get an American soldier/civilian they will torture him too (they already killed one).
If that person (must have been a soldier) has a conscience, he will go to his superior with the photographs. Not to the media.

From what ive heard there are more then 100 photo's and several video's, what soldier (with a conscience) makes so many photo's of torture and hands them over to the media without a reason.

I think there someone behind, i dont know why, but someone wanted this to happen. For political reasons (elections?) maybe, unfortunatly it are innocent civilians who are paying the price.

Offcourse its what i think, i could be wrong... or better, prove me wrong.

[
If you take such pictures or get them because you wer there, would you give them to the media knowing that your fellow(?)soldiers would want revenge afterwards (if they can torture, then they they can also take revenge later).
Not only that, as a soldier in the area, you know what those muslim extremist fanatics over there are like. So you also know that if they get an American soldier/civilian they will torture him too (they already killed one).
If that person (must have been a soldier) has a conscience, he will go to his superior with the photographs. Not to the media.

From what ive heard there are more then 100 photo's and several video's, what soldier (with a conscience) makes so many photo's of torture and hands them over to the media without a reason.

I think there someone behind, i dont know why, but someone wanted this to happen. For political reasons (elections?) maybe, unfortunatly it are innocent civilians who are paying the price.

Offcourse its what i think, i could be wrong... or better, prove me wrong.

Yes, Kerry is behind it

*bump*

[
If you take such pictures or get them because you wer there, would you give them to the media knowing that your fellow(?)soldiers would want revenge afterwards (if they can torture, then they they can also take revenge later).
Not only that, as a soldier in the area, you know what those muslim extremist fanatics over there are like. So you also know that if they get an American soldier/civilian they will torture him too (they already killed one).
If that person (must have been a soldier) has a conscience, he will go to his superior with the photographs. Not to the media.

From what ive heard there are more then 100 photo's and several video's, what soldier (with a conscience) makes so many photo's of torture and hands them over to the media without a reason.

I think there someone behind, i dont know why, but someone wanted this to happen. For political reasons (elections?) maybe, unfortunatly it are innocent civilians who are paying the price.

Offcourse its what i think, i could be wrong... or better, prove me wrong.

Yes, Kerry is behind it

Well it's a nice conspiracy theory but I think it is more of a case of a few soldiers that were horrified at what they did.

The democrats will jump at any chance to discredit the shrub.

People of asked why are their videos and photos? Well some of it is because people are sick and some of it is to evaluate whether or not something is working.

It's a sick business.

In US prisons it is usually prisoner on prisoner rape. Most common example is you drop your soap in the shower bend over to get it and Bubba has his way with you

I might actually care what Amnesty International had to say if it wasn't for that International part.

I might actually care what Amnesty International had to say if it wasn't for that International part.

it's sad that i can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/12/congress.abuse/index.html

Oh my! The GOP doesn't want any more pictures out in the media. I wonder why? Because they "inspire the enemy"? Hah. If they didn't want to do that, they shouldn't have started the war in the first place. I think the real reason can be described with the words "election year."

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If you take such pictures or get them because you wer there, would you give them to the media knowing that your fellow(?)soldiers would want revenge afterwards (if they can torture, then they they can also take revenge later).
Not only that, as a soldier in the area, you know what those muslim extremist fanatics over there are like. So you also know that if they get an American soldier/civilian they will torture him too (they already killed one).
If that person (must have been a soldier) has a conscience, he will go to his superior with the photographs. Not to the media.

From what ive heard there are more then 100 photo's and several video's, what soldier (with a conscience) makes so many photo's of torture and hands them over to the media without a reason.

I think there someone behind, i dont know why, but someone wanted this to happen. For political reasons (elections?) maybe, unfortunatly it are innocent civilians who are paying the price.

Offcourse its what i think, i could be wrong... or better, prove me wrong.

Yes, Kerry is behind it

Well it's a nice conspiracy theory but I think it is more of a case of a few soldiers that were horrified at what they did.

The democrats will jump at any chance to discredit the shrub.

People of asked why are their videos and photos? Well some of it is because people are sick and some of it is to evaluate whether or not something is working.

It's a sick business.

Sarcasm really...

I don't know why there are photos...It seems that they were used as a "trading cards" among the soldiers or something...