NationStates Jolt Archive

Someone tell me this is a joke, and the Daily Express has fallen for it, please? Apparently some people are trying to push through a law in the UK that would make it illegal to "desecrate" any of the flags of the British Isles.

Now I don't know about you, but I don't see what is criminal about burning a bit of cloth with a (admittedly rather fetching) set of red white and blue stripes on it. If you're so horrified by that prospect, then I suggest you stick your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears, click your feet three times together and say quietly, "There's no place like home!"

It won't do anything, but at least you won't be able to see the evil people expressing their evil thoughts according to the even more evil freedom of expression and the most heinous freedom of speech!

Like it or not, some people (myself included) are growing an intense dislike for some of the practices of the current administration, and if this ban should ever be passed, I'll be first in line to drop trow and piss on a flag that to me would have no worth any more, if I can be prosecuted and fined over two thousand pounds for such a silly thing as that!

Along the same lines as the US "anybody but Bush" movement, I think the UK needs an "Anyone but the Tories and Labour" movement...

it's about what the flag represents!

it's about what the flag represents!

And if I just plain don't like what the flag has come to represent thanks to recent daft new laws being trundled through?

It's a bit of cloth, people. Come to your senses! Arrest someone for planting a bomb, not for burning a pretty bit of cloth!

we merkans are constantly under threat from the wacky right wingers here who try to pass a constitutional amendment banning flag desecration every year or so.

for your listening enjoyment, the flag desecration rag (http://fileserv5.soundclick.com/fastg9%5CVIPD/davidrovics+theflagdesecrationrag.mp3) by david rovics.

Countries which allow flag "desecration" are no worse-off or endangered than those which ban it. What's the practical use of flag laws other than to foster right-wing nationalism?

If your country is truly strong & free, it allows all forms of non-violent political dissent - including flag burning. To fear flag-burning is a sign of national insecurity.

Countries like the U.K. and Canada which permit flag-burning should be proud of having this freedom - don't let the reacionaries take it away!

DP

I thought materials that they make flags out of are non-flammable

I thought materials that they make flags out of are non-flammable

a bit of gasoline takes care of any problems in that respect

"Flag-burning makes me feel patriotic" - Bill Maher.


I don't like the term "flag desecration" (sp?), it implies that a piece of cloth with some colour are sacred and special. Which is a ridiculous concept. It is an artifact from an imperialist past, not a gift from God.

I don't like the term "flag desecration" (sp?), it implies that a piece of cloth with some colour are sacred and special. Which is a ridiculous concept. It is an artifact from an imperialist past, not a gift from God.

which just goes along with my theory that right wingers are just using religion as a convinient place to hang their reactionary views.

I think flag burning is a good thing, i thought it was illegal in the UK? :?:

I think flag burning is a good thing, i thought it was illegal in the UK? :?:

Not as far as I know - or if it is, it's as illegal as defacing a penny or putting a stamp on a letter upside-down. All technically illegal, but no longer enforced. The new bill to be put through the commons proposes a £2500 fine for anyone found "desecrating" the English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish flags, as well as the Union flag.

I think flag burning is a good thing, i thought it was illegal in the UK? :?:

As far as I know it isn't, but it maybe under the Terrorism Act, which a load of interest groups are trying to use to ban things.

I think flag burning is a good thing, i thought it was illegal in the UK? :?:

Not as far as I know - or if it is, it's as illegal as defacing a penny or putting a stamp on a letter upside-down. All technically illegal, but no longer enforced.

Technically money is illegal too (it is now illegal to carry anything that can support terrorism), it all depends on how you interpret the law. But I think it is illegal to deface anything with the Monarchs effigy on it, but the police force have 'better' things to do than make sure everyone toes the line.

Whether a law is passed or not you are free to burn your flag, you are also free to face the consequences of your actions. There are many laws that I don't agree with but if I blatantly violate them I must pay, so too should those who would violate a law that bans the burning of the flag.

Depends if you are burning it to be rebellious or just to burn something.

Whether a law is passed or not you are free to burn your flag, you are also free to face the consequences of your actions. There are many laws that I don't agree with but if I blatantly violate them I must pay, so too should those who would violate a law that bans the burning of the flag.

But the question is "Should I be prosecuted on burning a piece of cloth [the flag]," so ability to do something doesn't come into it, but should there be a law on it is

think of all the people who died for that flag

surely you can find a form of protest that dosn't desecrate thier memory and cause

man, i've gone all these years not knowing that...shit. The only flag that i would burn would be the EU.

think of all the people who died for that flag

surely you can find a form of protest that dosn't desecrate thier memory and cause

Those people died for ideals that they believed in. Things like freedom. Not for a pretty, abstract artwork.

think of all the people who died for that flag

thing about it

surely you can find a form of protest that dosn't desecrate thier memory and cause

How does it desecrate it exactly?

Whether a law is passed or not you are free to burn your flag, you are also free to face the consequences of your actions. There are many laws that I don't agree with but if I blatantly violate them I must pay, so too should those who would violate a law that bans the burning of the flag.

But the question is "Should I be prosecuted on burning a piece of cloth [the flag]," so ability to do something doesn't come into it, but should there be a law on it isHow is hat any more relevant of a question than whether or not I can take any substance I choose into my body? Like I said in my post, brwak the law if you will but be ready to pay for it. There are laws that many of us don't agree with, that doesn't make it permissable to violate them. The law will pass or it won't. Let your conscience guide you at your own risk afterwards.

Whether a law is passed or not you are free to burn your flag, you are also free to face the consequences of your actions. There are many laws that I don't agree with but if I blatantly violate them I must pay, so too should those who would violate a law that bans the burning of the flag.

But the question is "Should I be prosecuted on burning a piece of cloth [the flag]," so ability to do something doesn't come into it, but should there be a law on it isHow is hat any more relevant of a question than whether or not I can take any substance I choose into my body? Like I said in my post, brwak the law if you will but be ready to pay for it. There are laws that many of us don't agree with, that doesn't make it permissable to violate them. The law will pass or it won't. Let your conscience guide you at your own risk afterwards.

That law will pass, and your freedoms will be further reduced by yet another quanta, if there is enough support for it. Do you support it?

How is hat any more relevant of a question than whether or not I can take any substance I choose into my body? Like I said in my post, brwak the law if you will but be ready to pay for it. There are laws that many of us don't agree with, that doesn't make it permissable to violate them. The law will pass or it won't. Let your conscience guide you at your own risk afterwards.

OK simply put. Do you think flag burning should be illegal? Why?

Like I said in my post, brwak the law if you will but be ready to pay for it. There are laws that many of us don't agree with, that doesn't make it permissable to violate them. The law will pass or it won't. Let your conscience guide you at your own risk afterwards.

but the point of disobeying unjust laws is to get rid of them.

How is hat any more relevant of a question than whether or not I can take any substance I choose into my body? Like I said in my post, brwak the law if you will but be ready to pay for it. There are laws that many of us don't agree with, that doesn't make it permissable to violate them. The law will pass or it won't. Let your conscience guide you at your own risk afterwards.

OK simply put. Do you think flag burning should be illegal? Why?I don't like it and I think it should be, as it is, frowned upon, but I don't see the need to involve legislation it this.

Like I said in my post, brwak the law if you will but be ready to pay for it. There are laws that many of us don't agree with, that doesn't make it permissable to violate them. The law will pass or it won't. Let your conscience guide you at your own risk afterwards.

but the point of disobeying unjust laws is to get rid of them.The point can be whatever you'd like, but the result is incarceration, trust me.

The point can be whatever you'd like, but the result is incarceration, trust me.

not if you're doing it right

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.Who said that?

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!Thier vandalism costs them nothing, yours would cost you plenty. Anyone who isn't niaeve or criminally insane, who has been to prison, sees the folly of breaking the law simply because you disagree.

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!Thier vandalism costs them nothing, yours would cost you plenty. Anyone who isn't niaeve or criminally insane, who has been to prison, sees the folly of breaking the law simply because you disagree.

Question is, at what price freedom? You assume I don't know what sleeping next to a psycho is like. And this bill will not become law without support - are you supporting it? By the scare tactics you seem to be employing, it seems that you would wish to work for anyone who has the gun. Would you?

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.Who said that?

I'm trying to pin your opinions on this subject. But your posts suggest you are for it. If you are not I apologise.

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!Thier vandalism costs them nothing, yours would cost you plenty. Anyone who isn't niaeve or criminally insane, who has been to prison, sees the folly of breaking the law simply because you disagree.

Question is, at what price freedom? You assume I don't know what sleeping next to a psycho is like. And this bill will not become law without support - are you supporting it? By the scare tactics you seem to be employing, it seems that you would wish to work for anyone who has the gun. Would you?My only point is, be prepared to suffer for whichever stance you take on priciple. If you aren't just aching to burn a flag, if the law passes, you are stepping in neck-deep shit with thigh-high waders. The very real consequences of your actions will often out-weigh any intangible benifiets you see.

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!Thier vandalism costs them nothing, yours would cost you plenty. Anyone who isn't niaeve or criminally insane, who has been to prison, sees the folly of breaking the law simply because you disagree.

Question is, at what price freedom? You assume I don't know what sleeping next to a psycho is like. And this bill will not become law without support - are you supporting it? By the scare tactics you seem to be employing, it seems that you would wish to work for anyone who has the gun. Would you?My only point is, be prepared to suffer for whichever stance you take on priciple. If you aren't just aching to burn a flag, if the law passes, you are stepping in neck-deep shit with thigh-high waders. The very real consequences of your actions will often out-weigh any intangible benifiets you see.

Again with the scare tactics. And again, this bill will not become law without support. And if it does, I think I've already signalled my willingness to suffer under whatever shit the government is willing to throw at me. As publically and as undignified as possible, would be preferred. I would love nothing more than to get the whole world's press attention on one guy getting the crap kicked out of him because he dared set alight to a cloth. What a great symbol of freedom, our wonderful flag!

Like I say, if this bill becomes law, I will be the first in line to drop trow and piss on the flag. First up against the wall, so to speak. And I hope they really pull the stops out making an example of me.

think of all the people who died for that flag

surely you can find a form of protest that dosn't desecrate thier memory and cause

The people who fought for those flags would be turning in their graves if they seen how the word "Freedom" is being used today. They fought for that flag to give you the right to brun it. Silly.

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!Thier vandalism costs them nothing, yours would cost you plenty. Anyone who isn't niaeve or criminally insane, who has been to prison, sees the folly of breaking the law simply because you disagree.

Question is, at what price freedom? You assume I don't know what sleeping next to a psycho is like. And this bill will not become law without support - are you supporting it? By the scare tactics you seem to be employing, it seems that you would wish to work for anyone who has the gun. Would you?My only point is, be prepared to suffer for whichever stance you take on priciple. If you aren't just aching to burn a flag, if the law passes, you are stepping in neck-deep shit with thigh-high waders. The very real consequences of your actions will often out-weigh any intangible benifiets you see.

Again with the scare tactics. And again, this bill will not become law without support. And if it does, I think I've already signalled my willingness to suffer under whatever shit the government is willing to throw at me. As publically and as undignified as possible, would be preferred. I would love nothing more than to get the whole world's press attention on one guy getting the crap kicked out of him because he dared set alight to a cloth. What a great symbol of freedom, our wonderful flag!

Like I say, if this bill becomes law, I will be the first in line to drop trow and piss on the flag. First up against the wall, so to speak. And I hope they really pull the stops out making an example of me.This is just a guess, you've never been locked up have you? Are you a 15- 16 year old kid? Probably. Scare tactics? I hope you're fucking scared! You won't have the big public spectacle that you covet. You'll have a nice quiet arrest, a quiet trial and a very eventful and painful sentence. I'm sure you don't know what prison is like, if you did, you wouldn't take any law lightly. You've signalled your willingness to accept consequences, which I doubt, but willing to accept consequences and living with them are very different. Do you know what the most common cause of death is in prison? Suicide. Nothing seems as bad as it is when you are subject to it. Be careful, if it is not something you absolutely can't live with, skip it.

think of all the people who died for that flag

surely you can find a form of protest that dosn't desecrate thier memory and cause

think about all the peole that dies because of that flag. for everybody who sees it as a symbol of protection, and glory, and a protector of rights, there are two people who see it as the flag that flew when britain took over a third of the world. its the flag that started the slave trade. its the flag that destroyed indian culture and unity. its the flag that repressed one third of the world and whose mistakes are still being felt in the world. britain is a great place, but its made its share of mistakes, just like every other coutry. to act as if her flag were scripture is to act as if the ountry is holy, or free from being criticised. to not let it be burned desecrates the memory of people who suffered under the flag.

Deeloleo: Why do you support a ban on flag burning.

As far as I can read, s/he doesn't. Deeloleo would frown upon the act of burning but doesn't see the need for a ban. This is of course, up to him/her.

Personally I wouldn't just go and burn a flag for the sake of it. However as a form of protest at some of the stupid laws this government seems wont to pass - for me the very meaning of the flag becomes reduced, and I am committing no greater an act of vandalism upon my country than a government wishing to insist I be tagged, bagged, put in a little box and marked with a number - then told I can't burn a bit of cloth!

If anything, I feel that in the case of a bad government, burning the flag that the government presides under would be the patriotic thing to do!Thier vandalism costs them nothing, yours would cost you plenty. Anyone who isn't niaeve or criminally insane, who has been to prison, sees the folly of breaking the law simply because you disagree.

Question is, at what price freedom? You assume I don't know what sleeping next to a psycho is like. And this bill will not become law without support - are you supporting it? By the scare tactics you seem to be employing, it seems that you would wish to work for anyone who has the gun. Would you?My only point is, be prepared to suffer for whichever stance you take on priciple. If you aren't just aching to burn a flag, if the law passes, you are stepping in neck-deep shit with thigh-high waders. The very real consequences of your actions will often out-weigh any intangible benifiets you see.

Again with the scare tactics. And again, this bill will not become law without support. And if it does, I think I've already signalled my willingness to suffer under whatever shit the government is willing to throw at me. As publically and as undignified as possible, would be preferred. I would love nothing more than to get the whole world's press attention on one guy getting the crap kicked out of him because he dared set alight to a cloth. What a great symbol of freedom, our wonderful flag!

Like I say, if this bill becomes law, I will be the first in line to drop trow and piss on the flag. First up against the wall, so to speak. And I hope they really pull the stops out making an example of me.This is just a guess, you've never been locked up have you? Are you a 15- 16 year old kid? Probably. Scare tactics? I hope you're f--- scared! You won't have the big public spectacle that you covet. You'll have a nice quiet arrest, a quiet trial and a very eventful and painful sentence. I'm sure you don't know what prison is like, if you did, you wouldn't take any law lightly. You've signalled your willingness to accept consequences, which I doubt, but willing to accept consequences and living with them are very different. Do you know what the most common cause of death is in prison? Suicide. Nothing seems as bad as it is when you are subject to it. Be careful, if it is not something you absolutely can't live with, skip it.

27. And you could say I've been in places worse than prison, at a far younger age. Like, back when I was 12-14 or so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/276362.stm

No, I am not the person featured in this article. However, I do remember the teachers and other staff mentioned in this article very well.

You could say I'll never forget.

Now I would suggest that you stop pretending you know people. You never know who you'll meet out here on the Net.

Doesn't the US (or some states) have a ban on burning crosses?
Liberals got a bit aggitated because of the supposed limitation of freedom of speech, but does the intent of the action not make this kind of behaviour unacceptable?
Yes maybe it's a slight limitation on your actions, but it's not like you take your kids down the park on a Sunday and all have a laugh around a burning cross. It's what the action represents that is the problem.

On the news recently was that Muslim bloke Hamza burning a union flag and encouraged other Muslims to engage in terrorist activity. It is the symbolic nature of the flag burning that makes it unacceptable, a hatred of our country and the threat of endangering the lives of it's inhabitants.

In Germany there is a ban on any Nazi material, not because simply wearing a swastika itself is a bad thing.

I don't think there are many people who feel they have lost their liberty as a result of these laws.

buning a cross is a direct threat against a certain group of people. burning a flag shows a general protest against the ideals of a country. you can threaten the ideals of a country, thats wiithin the limits of free speech. you cant attack an individual, thats oiutside the limits of free speech.

Doesn't the US (or some states) have a ban on burning crosses?
Liberals got a bit aggitated because of the supposed limitation of freedom of speech, but does the intent of the action not make this kind of behaviour unacceptable?
Yes maybe it's a slight limitation on your actions, but it's not like you take your kids down the park on a Sunday and all have a laugh around a burning cross. It's what the action represents that is the problem.

On the news recently was that Muslim bloke Hamza burning a union flag and encouraged other Muslims to engage in terrorist activity. It is the symbolic nature of the flag burning that makes it unacceptable, a hatred of our country and the threat of endangering the lives of it's inhabitants.

In Germany there is a ban on any Nazi material, not because simply wearing a swastika itself is a bad thing.

I don't think there are many people who feel they have lost their liberty as a result of these laws.

We're on about a movement that practically destroyed half of Europe and made a good attempt at doing the same to Russia, versus a bunch of mad mullahs who would love this country to have further restrictions placed on the freedoms we enjoy here. Also, yes, despite the fact that I'm unlikely to ever want to wear a swastika except maybe as some form of irony, I do think a rule that bans you from wearing a symbol is patently stupid. Perhaps the neo-nazi groups that are around are evidence that this measure may not have worked? And what if I want to be ironic?

Don't let the terrorists win. You might not like me burning a bit of cloth, but like I said before - freedom goes in small amounts, not all at once. And Hamza's mob will just find another legal way of showing their contempt for the west. Then that will be clamped down on.

Do you know, that after a few headlines, the government made it illegal for there to be more than five people in one place with music, defining it as an illegal rave? Oh but that's all them illegal drugs' fault isn't it? Perhaps we could have a few more restrictions placed upon us before you'd complain about it - but by then it might be too late.

The trend stops here.