NationStates Jolt Archive

Lebanon: Over 20,000 killed in 1982 Israeli invasion. 25,000 dead since 1982 because of the Israelis, according to the Lebanese government. Little to no pretext of self defense, Israeli authorities concede.

Palestinians
" [the Palestinians will] live like dogs, and whoever wishes, may leave" -Moshe Dayan
" two-legged beasts" -Prime Minister Menaham Begub
" scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle" -Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan
" to keep them on a short leash..." to make sure they recognize " that the whip is held over their heads." That makes more sense than slaughter, because the civilized folk can "accept it all peacefully" asking "what is so terrible? Is anyone being killed?" -Boaz Evron
" [the goal was] to prevent the inhabitants of the territories from participating in shaping the political future of the territory." or to "be seen as a partner for dealings with Israel." That entailed "the absolute prohibition of any political organization, for it was clearly understood that if activism and organization were promitted, it's leaders would become potential participants in political affairs." - Former Chief of Israeli Intelligence Shlomo Gazit

Isreal is still my hero

I don't hate the Israeli people, but I think Sharon is an inflammatory moron.

Does anybody remember his little visit to the Temple Mount?? Or perhaps his (IMO) somewhat random siege of Arafat's compound after Passover 2002? Why can't their strikes be a little more surgical, or effective??

I have sympathy for the Palestinian refugees but not the terrorists, and I think Arafat's a flip-flopper. Get that Mahmoud Abbas back, he seemed like the only guy willing to cooperate with Israel.

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

As an American, I love Israel and consider her to be our greatest ally.

And your point is?

Having been there and talked to people, there is no clearly innocent side in this matter. Each have done bad things.

Until Hamas is severly beat up, the problem will not get solved. Arafat I think would like to deal and I think Islamic Jihaad would as well. Hamas will not.

Why is there an Israel?

Was it simply to solve the problem in Europe of what to do with so many Jews being 'displaced'? Why did they not just go home to the European nation that they once lived in? Did no one want them?

Where the Palestinians behind in their rent to Great Britain?

Or is it the result of many many years of lobbying in many of the world's governments by the Zionist movement and the economic force they represented or were believed to represent?

I have no idea why the U.S. gives so much support to Israel. It has been a long standing support so y'all can't blame G.W. (actually you probably could and will *sigh*)

I am not trying to be sarcastic or anti-semetic or whatever... just curious.

As an American, I love Israel and consider her to be our greatest ally.

Let me guess, Jewish? lol :wink:

Israel is one of the United States's closest allies and I also as an American support Israel. As for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and Arafat, they should be napalmed several times

As an American, I love Israel and consider her to be our greatest ally.

Let me guess, Jewish? lol :wink:

LoL, no I just have this thing for Israel I guess. :wink:

Just to keep things balanced, I know someone who grew up in Lebanon. He absolutely hated all Palestinians and has basically said he would support the Israelis getting rid of them. Why? Because Palestinians regularly got angry and turned their guns on his town. Because they regularly came into the town, rounded up all teenage boys and forced them to begin boot-camp like training. If they refused, they were severely beaten. From the time he was old enough to hold a gun, he had to take his turn on the roof guarding their house from Palestinan looters.

So yeah, both sides have done bad things.

The only reason America keeps kissing Israel's ass is because the Jews control vast amounts of the American economy. The Zionists must be stopped and have the land returned to it's rightful owners before 1948!

Note: Before WWII began, America had relatively good relations with Hitler and shared anti-semetic beliefs.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only reason America keeps kissing Israel's ass is because the Jews control vast amounts of the American economy. The Zionists must be stopped and have the land returned to it's rightful owners before 1948!

Note: Before WWII began, America had relatively good relations with Hitler and shared anti-semetic beliefs.

Well then that would be the Brits.

Palistine ceased to exist about 600 years ago. It was Turk territory till the end of WW1.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

Ahh but that is where we meet Catch-22.

If we give in then the message is "See just pull some terrorist acts on the American mainland and they will abandon what ever you want."

As to 9/11, Palistine was probably a really tiny reason. Bin Laden probably could have cared less about Palistine. He was more pissed about the US in Saudi.

9/11 was not about killing Americans only. It was more geared at attacking the stock market.

Why is there an Israel?

Was it simply to solve the problem in Europe of what to do with so many Jews being 'displaced'? Why did they not just go home to the European nation that they once lived in? Did no one want them?

The UN agreed to give them a country of their own in the part of the world the Jews lived for thousands of years. Apparently.

After WWII they've made sure noone else has fked with the Jewish people and I can't really say I blame them.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Ahh and yet the Palistineans have committed none?

Hmm I guess the pregnant woman and her 4 daughters that were recently killed were legal combatants?

Don't think all of Israel supports the settlements. I ran into many who don't.

What is the benefit of having an ally?
Is it to increase your own national security, or to provide trade or other mutual benefits?
If one were to do a costs-benefit analysis, would this alliance seem wise for America?

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Ahh and yet the Palistineans have committed none?

Hmm I guess the pregnant woman and her 4 daughters that were recently killed were legal combatants?

Don't think all of Israel supports the settlements. I ran into many who don't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that the Palestinians are equally guilty. I don't believe more though. I think both sides shoulder the blame. Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded. Israel are also better with PR.. the Palestinians are the under-dogs no doubt.. that doesn't excuse their war crimes either. It also doesn't excuse Israel's... I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

Why is there an Israel?

Was it simply to solve the problem in Europe of what to do with so many Jews being 'displaced'? Why did they not just go home to the European nation that they once lived in? Did no one want them?

The UN agreed to give them a country of their own in the part of the world the Jews lived for thousands of years. Apparently.

After WWII they've made sure noone else has fked with the Jewish people and I can't really say I blame them.
Ahhh, so the UN created a little homeland for them, obviously, as insinuated by Stephistan : The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that? Once again the U.S. is to blame since it always controlled the UN.

Still, why give them a nation where they lived for thousands of years as a nation thousands of years ago?

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Oh please! Tell me the Israeli "war crimes". And don't tell me that the Palestinians have the right to shoot a woman and her children! or kill 20 poeple in shopping market.

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

HAHAHA...please think before you post, this is just embarrassing. "stop our biased support for Israel...won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill us." So, we should quit being friends with the people who:
--like us
--believe like us (democracy)
--cooperate with us
--don't throw bombs at us
in favor of those who:
--hate us
--believe the opposite of us (in about every way)
--would sooner die than cooperate (Iraq, whom we tried to help)
--throw bombs when bored

Ummm, no

In 1948, there were two states on the U.N. drawing boards but the Palestinian leaders supported Hitler so...

Yasser Arafat isn't even Palestinian, he's Egyptian. Syria is officially at war with Israel although Israel is not at war with them at this time. Syria also needs to withdraw its troops from Lebanon. Lebanon has a large amount of Christians and the native people were known as civil and for hospitality before Syria's invasion.

Israeli PM. Sharon had his plan for military withdrawal from West Bank and settlement withdrawal from Gaza shot down which is strange. The majority of Palestinians just want to go about their daily lives. It's Arafat and those terrorists that are messing everything up. But no Palestinian PM wants to challenge Arafat. Someone has to get in there and catapult the guy out of there...

So it's bad all over, well except for the Israeli Airforce.

The U.S. supports Israel because it's the only democracy in the Middle East.

Still, why give them a nation where they lived for thousands of years as a nation thousands of years ago?

I don't know. If you had a couple of million displaced Polish people where would you put them?

Did no one want them?
I am not trying to be sarcastic or anti-semetic or whatever... just curious.

Well, I'm glad you're trying. Still, you failed. "did no one want them?" mirrors Nazi era rhetoric like that reflected in the propaganda piece "The Panic Party."

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Oh please! Tell me the Israeli "war crimes". And don't tell me that the Palestinians have the right to shoot a woman and her children! or kill 20 poeple in shopping market.

UN Security Council Resolutions on Israel since 1948


Res 101 (Nov 24, 53): Expressed 'strongest censure' of Israel for the first time because of its raid on Qibya.

Res 106 (Mar 29, 55): Condemned Israel for Ghazzah raid.

Res 111 (Jan 19, 56): Condemned Israel for raid on Syria that killed 56 people.

Res 127 (Jan 22, 58 ) : Recommended Israel to suspend its no-man's zone in Jerusalem.

Res 162 (Apr 11, 61) : Urged Israel to comply with UN decisions.

Res 171 (Apr 9, 62): Determined 'flagrant violation' by Israel in its attack on Syria.

Res 228 (Nov 25, 66): Censured Israel for its attack on Samu in Jordan.

Res 237 (June 14, 67): Urged Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees.

Res 248 (Mar 24, 68 ) : Condemned Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan.

Res 250 (Apr 27, 68 ) : Called on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem.

Res 251 (May 2, 68 ) : Deeply deplored Israel's military parade in Jerusalem and declared invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as its capital.

Res 256 (Aug 16, 68 ) : Condemned Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation'.

Res 259 (Sep 27, 68 ) : Deplored Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation.

Res 262 (Dec 31, 68 ) : Condemned Israel's attack on Beirut airport destroying the entire fleet of Middle East Airlines.

Res 265 (Apr 1, 69): Condemned Israel for air attacks on Salt in Jordan.

Res 267 (July 3, 69): Censured Israel for administrative acts to change status of Jerusalem.

Res 270 (Aug. 26, 69): Condemned Israel for air attack on villages in southern Lebanon.

Res 271 (Sep 15, 69): Condemned Israel's failure to comply with UN resolutions on Jerusalem.

Res 279 (May 12, 70): Demanded withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Res 280 (May 19, 70): Condemned Israeli attacks against Lebanon.

Res 285 (Sep 5, 70): Demanded immediate Israeli troop withdrawal from Lebanon.

Res 298 (Sep 25, 71): Deplored Israel's change of status of Jerusalem.

Res 313 (Aug 8, 72): Demanded Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.

Res 316 (June 26, 72): Condemned Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.

Res 317 (July 21, 72): Deplored Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted from Lebanon.

Res 332 (Apr 21, 73): Condemned Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.

Res 337 (Aug 15, 73): Condemned Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.

Res 347 (Apr 24, 74): Condemned Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Res 425 (Mar 19, 78 ) : Called on Israel to withdraw its forces unconditionally from Lebanon.

Res 427 (May 3, 78 ) : Called on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Res 444 (Jan 19, 79): Deplored Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peace forces.

Res 446 (Mar 22, 79): Determined Israeli settlements as a 'serious obstruction' to peace, and called on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions.

Res 450 (June 14, 79): Called on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.

Res 452 (July 20, 79): Called on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories.

Res 465 (Mar 1, 80): Deplored Israel's settlements and asked all member States not to assist Israel's settlement programme.

Res 467 (Apr 24, 80): Condemned Israel's military intervention in Lebanon.

Res 468 (May 8, 80): Called on Israel to rescind illegal expulsion of two Palestinian Mayors and a Judge, and to facilitate their return.

Res 469 (May 20, 80): Strongly deplored Israel's failure to observe the Council's order not to deport Palestinians.

Res 471 (June 5, 80): Expressed deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Res 476 (June 30, 80): Reiterated that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'.

Res 478 (Aug 20, 80): 'Censured in the strongest terms' Israel for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'basic law'.

Res 484 (Dec 19, 80): Declared it imperative Israel re-admit two Palestinian mayors.

Res 487 (June 19, 81): Strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility.

Res 497 (Dec 17, 81): Decided Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demanded that Israel rescind its decision forthwith.

Res 498 (Dec 18, 81): Called on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

Res 501 (Feb 25, 82): Called on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.

Res 508 (June 6, 82): Demanded Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and un-conditionally from Lebanon.

Res 515 (July 29, 82): Demanded Israel lift its seige of Beirut and allow in food.

Res 517 (Aug 4, 82): Censured Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demanded Isreal withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Res 518 (Aug 12, 82): Demanded Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon.

Res 520 (Sep 17, 82): Condemned Israel's attack into West Beirut.

Res 573 (Oct 4, 85): Condemned Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO Headquarters.

Res 587 (Sep 23, 86): Took note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urged all parties to withdraw.

Res 592 (Dec 8, 86): Strongly deplored the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops.

Res 605 (Dec 22, 87): Strongly deplored Israel's policies and practices denying human rights of Palestinians.

Res 607 (Jan 5, 88 ) : Called on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requested it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Res 608 (Jan 14, 88 ) : Deeply regreted that Israel had defied the UN and deported Palestinian civilians.

Res 636 (July 6, 89): Deeply regreted the Israeli deportation of Palestinians.

Res 641 (Aug 30, 89): Deplored Israel's continuous deportation of Palestinians.

Res 672 (Oct 12, 90): Condemned Israel for violence against Palestinians at Jerusalem's Haram Al-Sharif.

Res 673 (Oct 24, 90): Deplored Israel's refusal to cooperate with the UN.

Res 681 (Dec 20, 90): Deplored Israel's resumption of deportation of Palestinians.

Res 694 (May 24, 91): Deplored Israel's deportation of Palestinians and called on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

Res 726 (Jan 1, 92): 'Strongly condemned' Israel's decision to resume deportation of Palestinians from 'Palestinian territories... including Jerusalem.'

Res 799 (Dec 19, 92): Deplored Israel's mass deportation of some 400 Palestinians and called for thir immediate return.




Vetoes cast by the United States to defend Israeli crimes:



Sep 10, 72: Condemned Israel's attacks on Southern Lebanon and Syria. Vote: 13 to 1 in favor with 1 abstention.

July 26, 73: Affirmed the rights of Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections. Vote: 13 to 1 in favor with China absent.

Dec 8, 75: Condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians. Vote: 13 to 1, with 1 abstention.

Jan 26, 76: Called for self-determination of Palestinian people. Vote: 9 to 1 with 3 abstentions.

Mar 25, 76: Deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognised as an International city by most world nations and the United Nations. Vote 14 to 1.

June 29, 76: Affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Vote: 10 to 1 in favour with 4 abstentions.

Apr 30, 80: Endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people. Vote: 10 to 1 in favour with 4 abstentions.

Jan 20, 82: Demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights. Vote: 9 to 1 in favour with 4 abstentions.

Apr 2, 82: Condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Ghazzah Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva Convention protocols of civilised nations. Vote: 14 to 1.

Apr 20, 82: Condemned an Israeli soldier who shot 11 Muslim worshippers in the Haram Al-Sharif near Al Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem. Vote: 14 to 1.

June 8, 82: Urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1.

June 26, 82: Urged sanctions against Israel if it did not end its invasion of Beirut, Lebanon and withdraw. Vote: 14 to 1.

Aug 8, 82: Urged cut-off of economic aid to Israel if it refuses to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon. Vote: 11 to 1 with 3 abstentions.

Aug 2, 83: Condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Ghazzah Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace. Vote 13 to 1 with 1 abstention.

Sep 6, 84: Deplored Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urged its withdrawal. Vote 14 to 1.

Mar 12, 85: Condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression. Vote: 11 to 1 with 3 abstentions. Sep 13, 85: Denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories. Vote: 10 to 1 with 4 abstentions.

Jan 17, 86: Strongly deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon. Vote 11 to 1 with 3 abstentions.

Jan 30, 86: Deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem which threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites. Vote 13 to 1 with 1 abstention.

Feb 6, 86: Condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger plane on 4 February. Vote: 10 to 1 with 1 abstention.

Jan 18, 88: Strongly deplored Israeli attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon. Vote: 13 to 1 with 1 abstention.

Feb 1, 88: Called for Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian uprising that violate the rights of the Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and formalise a leading role for the UN in future peace negotiations. Vote: 14 to 1.

Apr 15, 88: Urged Israel to reaccept deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices. Vote: 14 to 1.

May 10, 88: Condemned Israel's May 2 incursion into Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1.

Dec 14, 88: Strongly deplored Israel's commando raids on Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1.

Feb 17, 89: Strongly deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian uprising and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians. Vote 14 to 1.

June 9, 89: Strongly deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians. Vote: 14 to 1.

Aug 11, 89: Demanded Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian uprising. Vote: 14 to 1.

Mar 5, 90: Called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli occupied lands. Vote: 14 to 1.

(Sources: Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, Washington, DC)

I don't think I need to say any thing.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Ahh and yet the Palistineans have committed none?

Hmm I guess the pregnant woman and her 4 daughters that were recently killed were legal combatants?

Don't think all of Israel supports the settlements. I ran into many who don't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that the Palestinians are equally guilty. I don't believe more though. I think both sides shoulder the blame. Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded. Israel are also better with PR.. the Palestinians are the under-dogs no doubt.. that doesn't excuse their war crimes either. It also doesn't excuse Israel's... I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

Until both can admit to wrongs; probably never. Many on both sides are tired of the fight. But it just seems it will never end.

It could but as I said Hamas will have to be bloodied bad to get somewhere.

Israel isn't going anywhere so Hamas' stance of it's elimination will not cause it to end.

The solution is pretty simple actually.

1) the terror/freedom fighters have to end.
2) the settlements have to be removed to I think it was 1967 lines?
3) Israel has to work and make sure the terroitories are viable. If I remember right one really bad thing is water supply.

One thing I have notice is rather intresting. Israel starts a dialog and killings go down.

The Fatah people establish a Prime Minister who is willing to negotiate and he gets removed.

A big shock for me was to learn that Arafat is a billionaire.

It can be solved and it's going to have to be the americans that solve it.

Who thought Israel and Egypt would ever sign a treaty?

The sad thing about the Hamas fighters is that many are fighting for a dead memory. I think it was the BBC that talked to a bunch of people about the early days and some would describe homes, etc. that they want back and now there is an office building or a warehouse on top of them.

Many people are to blame is this mess.

It didn't help when our British cousins left and sorta forgot a relativly large supply of weapons.

Another interesting tidbit is what Jews lost in the Arab revolts of 1928. Many Jews had lived in Jersulem and there abouts for centuries. They were chased out if not killed. Many of them live abroad and can't get what the lost as well.

Ahhh Religion. Isn't it useful sometimes! :roll:

I will say the Al-Aqsa(sp) is a beautiful thing to see. Well from a distance that is. ;)

In 1948, there were two states on the U.N. drawing boards but the Palestinian leaders supported Hitler so...

Yasser Arafat isn't even Palestinian, he's Egyptian. Syria is officially at war with Israel although Israel is not at war with them at this time. Syria also needs to withdraw its troops from Lebanon. Lebanon has a large amount of Christians and the native people were known as civil and for hospitality before Syria's invasion.

Israeli PM. Sharon had his plan for military withdrawal from West Bank and settlement withdrawal from Gaza shot down which is strange. The majority of Palestinians just want to go about their daily lives. It's Arafat and those terrorists that are messing everything up. But no Palestinian PM wants to challenge Arafat. Someone has to get in there and catapult the guy out of there...

So it's bad all over, well except for the Israeli Airforce.

The U.S. supports Israel because it's the only democracy in the Middle East.

Correctamundo. A couple of the military trainers of the Palistineans were trained by the SS.

Ahhh Arafat. It is interesting that people don't like to mention the time he tried to overthrough the old King Hussain. Or the fact that he dressed like a woman to evade capture. ;)

As to Sharons plan being shotdown. I think a large reason was that before the vote, a pregnant woman and her 4 daughters were killed....

Israel is an embarrasment. The rightous underdog has risen to become what it once comdemned. True, they have been envolved in a war of terror for far to long, but they have ceased to earn my sympathy for their plight as they have embraced the very tactics they have been fighting along with the tactics of the oppressors that the founders of the country fled from.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Ahh and yet the Palistineans have committed none?

Hmm I guess the pregnant woman and her 4 daughters that were recently killed were legal combatants?

Don't think all of Israel supports the settlements. I ran into many who don't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that the Palestinians are equally guilty. I don't believe more though. I think both sides shoulder the blame. Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded. Israel are also better with PR.. the Palestinians are the under-dogs no doubt.. that doesn't excuse their war crimes either. It also doesn't excuse Israel's... I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

Until both can admit to wrongs; probably never. Many on both sides are tired of the fight. But it just seems it will never end.

It could but as I said Hamas will have to be bloodied bad to get somewhere.

Israel isn't going anywhere so Hamas' stance of it's elimination will not cause it to end.

The solution is pretty simple actually.

1) the terror/freedom fighters have to end.
2) the settlements have to be removed to I think it was 1967 lines?
3) Israel has to work and make sure the terroitories are viable. If I remember right one really bad thing is water supply.

One thing I have notice is rather intresting. Israel starts a dialog and killings go down.

The Fatah people establish a Prime Minister who is willing to negotiate and he gets removed.

A big shock for me was to learn that Arafat is a billionaire.

It can be solved and it's going to have to be the americans that solve it.

Who thought Israel and Egypt would ever sign a treaty?

The sad thing about the Hamas fighters is that many are fighting for a dead memory. I think it was the BBC that talked to a bunch of people about the early days and some would describe homes, etc. that they want back and now there is an office building or a warehouse on top of them.

Many people are to blame is this mess.

It didn't help when our British cousins left and sorta forgot a relativly large supply of weapons.

Another interesting tidbit is what Jews lost in the Arab revolts of 1928. Many Jews had lived in Jersulem and there abouts for centuries. They were chased out if not killed. Many of them live abroad and can't get what the lost as well.

Ahhh Religion. Isn't it useful sometimes! :roll:

I will say the Al-Aqsa(sp) is a beautiful thing to see. Well from a distance that is. ;)

Don't even get me started on religion..lol

The break up of the country runs at Israel - 78% Palestine 22%

There is a reason for terrorists. I suggest that if these young men and women had opportunity and social justice they might not be so quick to kill themselves. There has certainly been studies conducted on this. The largest reason for terrorism is poverty, social injustice and lack of any real opportunity. Until these problems are solved. Terrorism will always be there. Not that it's very realistic to believe that terrorism will ever totally be done away with. But it's a good place to start.

Did no one want them?
I am not trying to be sarcastic or anti-semetic or whatever... just curious.

Well, I'm glad you're trying. Still, you failed. "did no one want them?" mirrors Nazi era rhetoric like that reflected in the propaganda piece "The Panic Party."
I was honestly trying.
Still, why give them a nation where they lived for thousands of years as a nation thousands of years ago?
I don't know. If you had a couple of million displaced Polish people where would you put them?

Poland actually, but that is where they lived before being displaced is it not? I am sure a number of these Polish folks were jewish.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Ahh and yet the Palistineans have committed none?

Hmm I guess the pregnant woman and her 4 daughters that were recently killed were legal combatants?

Don't think all of Israel supports the settlements. I ran into many who don't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that the Palestinians are equally guilty. I don't believe more though. I think both sides shoulder the blame. Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded. Israel are also better with PR.. the Palestinians are the under-dogs no doubt.. that doesn't excuse their war crimes either. It also doesn't excuse Israel's... I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

Until both can admit to wrongs; probably never. Many on both sides are tired of the fight. But it just seems it will never end.

It could but as I said Hamas will have to be bloodied bad to get somewhere.

Israel isn't going anywhere so Hamas' stance of it's elimination will not cause it to end.

The solution is pretty simple actually.

1) the terror/freedom fighters have to end.
2) the settlements have to be removed to I think it was 1967 lines?
3) Israel has to work and make sure the terroitories are viable. If I remember right one really bad thing is water supply.

One thing I have notice is rather intresting. Israel starts a dialog and killings go down.

The Fatah people establish a Prime Minister who is willing to negotiate and he gets removed.

A big shock for me was to learn that Arafat is a billionaire.

It can be solved and it's going to have to be the americans that solve it.

Who thought Israel and Egypt would ever sign a treaty?

The sad thing about the Hamas fighters is that many are fighting for a dead memory. I think it was the BBC that talked to a bunch of people about the early days and some would describe homes, etc. that they want back and now there is an office building or a warehouse on top of them.

Many people are to blame is this mess.

It didn't help when our British cousins left and sorta forgot a relativly large supply of weapons.

Another interesting tidbit is what Jews lost in the Arab revolts of 1928. Many Jews had lived in Jersulem and there abouts for centuries. They were chased out if not killed. Many of them live abroad and can't get what the lost as well.

Ahhh Religion. Isn't it useful sometimes! :roll:

I will say the Al-Aqsa(sp) is a beautiful thing to see. Well from a distance that is. ;)

Don't even get me started on religion..lol

The break up of the country runs at Israel - 78% Palestine 22%

There is a reason for terrorists. I suggest that if these young men and women had opportunity and social justice they might not be so quick to kill themselves. There has certainly been studies conducted on this. The largest reason for terrorism is poverty, social injustice and lack of any real opportunity. Until these problems are solved. Terrorism will always be there. Not that it's very realistic to believe that terrorism will ever totally be done away with. But it's a good place to start.
Actually, studies are showing that most suicide bombers are middle class and well educated. Willing and able to devote themselves to a cause.

Was quite scary reading the article(In Discovery if I recall) really, as I told my friend, "we fit the profile of a suicide bomber."

Dialogue: http://www.discover.com/issues/oct-03/departments/featdialogue/

As it is, I detest Sharron and his damned methods. I'm not against the killing of Hamas leaders (no, I'm for that). But for the love of God, do not shoot f***ing rockets into the middle of a crowd to hit one damned man.

Don't even get me started on religion..lol

The break up of the country runs at Israel - 78% Palestine 22%

There is a reason for terrorists. I suggest that if these young men and women had opportunity and social justice they might not be so quick to kill themselves. There has certainly been studies conducted on this. The largest reason for terrorism is poverty, social injustice and lack of any real opportunity. Until these problems are solved. Terrorism will always be there. Not that it's very realistic to believe that terrorism will ever totally be done away with. But it's a good place to start.Very astute Steph. I have gotten myself lashed out at by many idealists by making the simple statement that I understand the terrorists motivation (not that I condone it but understand it) and that no real resolution can be found without addressing the issues and conditions that drive humans to such extreme actions. It's far to easy to label them as Evil and/or Fanatical and thus see them as subhuman and not deserving of compassion, understanding or fair treatment. A tougher thing is to try to understand the desperation and despair that drives people to such extremes. Not many want to take that effort.

How about the UN makes the area a demilitarized zone and occupies it with non-USA peacekeepers? That way we could have everyone fight fair. Oh, and the politicians responsible for the current disaster could be tried in an American court for sheer stupidity, found guilty for the loss of human life and sentenced to working to clear the rubble from the bombed Palestinian cities...

Too bad we're not perfect beings living in a perfect world.

If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel.

So basically you're saying that the US should give into Islamic extremests, wrather than support the closest thing to a democracy and the only other country that is at least slightly democratic in the region and also commiting the same type war crimes (ie: "defensive") the US is?

Don't even get me started on religion..lol

The break up of the country runs at Israel - 78% Palestine 22%

There is a reason for terrorists. I suggest that if these young men and women had opportunity and social justice they might not be so quick to kill themselves. There has certainly been studies conducted on this. The largest reason for terrorism is poverty, social injustice and lack of any real opportunity. Until these problems are solved. Terrorism will always be there. Not that it's very realistic to believe that terrorism will ever totally be done away with. But it's a good place to start.Very astute Steph. I have gotten myself lashed out at by many idealists by making the simple statement that I understand the terrorists motivation (not that I condone it but understand it) and that no real resolution can be found without addressing the issues and conditions that drive humans to such extreme actions. It's far to easy to label them as Evil and/or Fanatical and thus see them as subhuman and not deserving of compassion, understanding or fair treatment. A tougher thing is to try to understand the desperation and despair that drives people to such extremes. Not many want to take that effort.

No the ones that are evil are the ones that "program" them for the action. Nobody says "Hey I will strap on a bomb..."

But Steph is right, a large reason for them having recruits is the futures issue. I talked to one guy who lost his son as a bomber. He does not celibrate the action. He didn't even know his son was thinking of it. His son had studied engineering and had no job aspects.

Actually, studies are showing that most suicide bombers are middle class and well educated. Willing and able to devote themselves to a cause.

Was quite scary reading the article(In Discovery if I recall) really, as I told my friend, "we fit the profile of a suicide bomber."

I'm sure there are exceptions to every case. "most" would not be accurate though. Although, I suppose even middle class Arabs living under the oppression of Israel may feel the "social injustice" of course in some cases it could also be a "perceived" injustice. It doesn't negate that the "majority" of terrorism is caused by poverty, social injustice and lack of opportunity. It's like people who become depressed, one of the key symptoms is "hopelessness".

As an American, I love Israel and consider her to be our greatest ally.


I bet they love us a lot too, with the spies they have installed in the US and such. :roll:

(Well, I believe that they did have quite a few spies here and in other countries like France)

Back on the topic, I was disheartened when Mamoud Abbas resigned, for I thought he was the one who could end this conflict. It was Arafat's fault for this all because that authoritarian fool gaffed by adamantly refusing to relieve control of his police forces. I think Arafat needs to be extracted from Palestine somehow (non-violently, hopefully, but that may be unlikely) and Abbas to be repositioned again as the Palestinian PM.

Poland actually, but that is where they lived before being displaced is it not? I am sure a number of these Polish folks were jewish.

No many of them wanted out. Poland has not always been lovey dovey with the Jews. Some worked with the Germans to "clean up"

Poland actually, but that is where they lived before being displaced is it not? I am sure a number of these Polish folks were jewish.

No many of them wanted out. Poland has not always been lovey dovey with the Jews. Some worked with the Germans to "clean up"
So they did not wish to return to their home nations because they did not feel wanted. Then it was more an issue of not being able to return them to where they lived because they wanted to live elsewhere and there was no 'elsewhere' at the time.

Whether they're Israelis or Palestinian fundamentalists, they're still humans. We should give into human rights.

It's weird how they have turned to similar tactics that were once used against them.

I will always support Israel!

Killing a Hamas leader is not a war crime, they are sorldiers.
But blowing yourself up and killing civilians, is a WAR CRIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh please! You obviously came into this discussion with little facts. Israel has committed tons of war crimes. Every time the UN has tried to hold them to account and force them to follow the Geneva Conventions the Americans VETO it. Both sides are idiots. Israel just gets to do as she likes because they have no accountability thanks to the Americans. Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

that wasnt what he was saying :roll: he was saying that killing a hamas leader, who considers himself a leader of soldiers- is not a war crime, its called war...i dont think any of us would like to be blown up by any terrorist who is trying to make a political statement.....

In the American military- it is a policy that we do not negotiate with terorrist. Why? Because they get away with things they shouldn't. and a Terorrist is basically a person who kills innocent people, why should we trust them?
The situation in Israel is very difficult to understand because there is so much which is going on all at the same time, too much for us to comprehend..anyone to comprehend for that matter..
No one can deny Sharon has accepted peace negotiations- but then been forced to decline because a mall was blown up-in direct violation of the cease fire.
Arafat has gone back on his word way to many times for anyone to really count.
If in fact Sharon stopped building the wall, withdrem their military and withdrew the "illegal" settlements, do you think the terrorist will just stop?
No, the problem has to do with Arab hatred for Jews, this is the real constant threat, Syria, Egypt...etc.
How do you defend yourself when the terrorist are ordinary people with bombs strapped on themselves, how do you defend yourself while being surrounded by Arab countries who's policy is to get rid of you?

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that the Palestinians are equally guilty. I don't believe more though. I think both sides shoulder the blame. Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded. Israel are also better with PR.. the Palestinians are the under-dogs no doubt.. that doesn't excuse their war crimes either. It also doesn't excuse Israel's... I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

What would be Israel "playing fair"?

Lebanon: Over 20,000 killed in 1982 Israeli invasion. 25,000 dead since 1982 because of the Israelis, according to the Lebanese government. Little to no pretext of self defense, Israeli authorities concede.

Palestinians
" [the Palestinians will] live like dogs, and whoever wishes, may leave" -Moshe Dayan
" two-legged beasts" -Prime Minister Menaham Begub
" scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle" -Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan
" to keep them on a short leash..." to make sure they recognize " that the whip is held over their heads." That makes more sense than slaughter, because the civilized folk can "accept it all peacefully" asking "what is so terrible? Is anyone being killed?" -Boaz Evron
" [the goal was] to prevent the inhabitants of the territories from participating in shaping the political future of the territory." or to "be seen as a partner for dealings with Israel." That entailed "the absolute prohibition of any political organization, for it was clearly understood that if activism and organization were promitted, it's leaders would become potential participants in political affairs." - Former Chief of Israeli Intelligence Shlomo Gazit

Holy shit, nice way to take quotes completely out of context, Michael Moore.

Poland actually, but that is where they lived before being displaced is it not? I am sure a number of these Polish folks were jewish.
Well no my point was that if you had a load of displaced Polish people you would naturally return them to their homeland of Poland.
The Jews lived for thousands of years in what is now Israel, so it makes sense to put them back after they were basically hounded out by the arabs.

it really does, for such a small country it managed to win the 6 day war against 5 countries.

It has the second best air force in the world.

ANd i am a jew also. :)

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that the Palestinians are equally guilty. I don't believe more though. I think both sides shoulder the blame. Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded. Israel are also better with PR.. the Palestinians are the under-dogs no doubt.. that doesn't excuse their war crimes either. It also doesn't excuse Israel's... I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

What would be Israel "playing fair"?

A good start might be clearing out of ALL illegal settlements!

it really does, for such a small country it managed to win the 6 day war against 5 countries.
It has the second best air force in the world.I agree. Isreal controls the land. The Palestinians were offered their own state at the creation of Isreal and they decided instead that they would rather just have the Jews eliminated. It's not like the Jews have a real choice on whether to run a limited defense when there are hostile neighbors on every border.

God, you people are boring. The same slogan waving, over and over. The same quotes from propaganda websites, over and over. The same whine about poor innocent terrorists who should be understood, loved and cuddled, over and over. The same Steph, with the same rubbish about "uneven playing field", who sides with the Palestinians fully, never ever condemns the terrorists unless it is needed to justify her condemnation of Israel, yet considers herself objective and unbiased and doesn't see a tiny little contradiction between the two. Over and over. Go to hell, the lot of you. Mind your own business for once. Take care of your own problems in your own countries, don't stick your nose where it doesn't bloody belong.

Isn't that what forums are for?

Isn't that what forums are for?
For what? slogan waving and sticking noses into wrong places? Well, I suppose, its one way to use a forum :roll:

God, you people are boring. The same slogan waving, over and over. The same quotes from propaganda websites, over and over. The same whine about poor innocent terrorists who should be understood, loved and cuddled, over and over. The same Steph, with the same rubbish about "uneven playing field", who sides with the Palestinians fully, never ever condemns the terrorists unless it is needed to justify her condemnation of Israel, yet considers herself objective and unbiased and doesn't see a tiny little contradiction between the two. Over and over. Go to hell, the lot of you. Mind your own business for once. Take care of your own problems in your own countries, don't stick your nose where it doesn't bloody belong.

Said like a true Israeli.. but still.. does that mean you denouce America's support for your country? If every one should just (as you said)..

Take care of your own problems in your own countries, don't stick your nose where it doesn't bloody belong

So, your country Israel should defend it's self? Good, we agree! Finally!

Said like a true Israeli.. but still.. does that mean you denouce America's support for your country? If every one should just (as you said)..
Ahh, the wonder of logic of those who are out to condemn and insult.

Yes Steph. I am all for calling off US "aid". Let's play fair and trade fair, and buy whatever one can afford- and that includes BOTH sides. Let the US buy our UAVs for live cash- or buy European made ones for three-four times the price. Let them buy our technologies in a fair bid instead of them always naming the price like now. Let them PAY in cash and trade benefits for our backing during their MidEast campaigns instead of paying off the Arabs by sacrificing our interests. Let us see who is better at fair competition- Lockheed-Martin or TAAS, Colt Armaments or IMI. Let us see if the US finds another ally of equal value anywhere in the world- especially among the Arabs. Hell, with all the "special relationship" between the US and the Saudis America still wants Israel to guard their air cargo to the Gulf! Us, not their Saudi or Egyptian friends.
American aid to Israel benefits first of all America.


So, your country Israel should defend it's self? Good, we agree! Finally!
Well yes, we don't interfere with other states' affairs. We don't tell the Canadians which one of their governments is better and which one to elect. You do it all the time.

Well yes, we don't interfere with other states' affairs. We don't tell the Canadians which one of their governments is better and which one to elect. You do it all the time.

See, you see it as I don't like Israel.. not so.. My problem is far more with the American administration then in many ways Israel it's self.. I simply believe that as long as Israel has the Americans there blocking them from doing any thing they don't want.. nothing will ever be done. I see it as Israel is holding all the cards. I also take a bit of exception with you thinking I would ever say "terrorism" is ok.. not so. I do believe though even the worse things in society have a root cause and it's better to understand that root cause then to just keep going like it doesn't exist. If you solve the root cause.. you can stop it from happening. I am as you know a Canadian and very much against the death penalty.. thus I like to believe there are other ways.. call me idealistic.. however, I don't think so, given the majority of the free world agrees with me. The death penalty doesn't exist in many free countries any more. Rightfully so, as it's an offense against human rights.

I think Jewish people and Islamic people are basically good.. All people are. The problem lays within extreme governments.. and sadly.. both Palestine AND Israel have extreme governments at the moment.. I don't doubt for two seconds that most Israeli's and Palestinians would just like to go about their lives.. It's your governments that are stopping it.. so what is the most obvious obstacle? The Americans.. because as much as they help Israel.. they hurt any chance of peace. It's of course more complex then I have stated here.. but at the end of the day.. I have nothing against Israelis.. never have.. I do have issues with the way things work.. that is all.

I am sorry if I offended you.

it really does, for such a small country it managed to win the 6 day war against 5 countries.

It has the second best air force in the world.

ANd i am a jew also. :)

Egypt also claims victory during the 7days war (where did you get 6?), and given the numbers involved they have a real good reason. 1 destroyer sunk, 16 planes lost, 1 "misplaced" nuclear warhead and enough ground vehicles to wave a stick at. The only reason Israel is not a muslim state is that U.S. and U.K. have invested enough military assets that it makes most of central Europe look unarmed. On the 4th of May or so Israeli flown AH-64 Apache launched a rocket strike on a "suspected" location were two Palestinian were holed up. Kill count:12 (families included), now I really hate Islam, so don't get me wrong, Israel fought hard for their state; they bombed the Brittish embassy in 1948, they launched an offensive against Egypt in the late 70s, they butcher Palestinian Christians just as soon as Muslims and then they continue to bitch about the "Holocost" (holohoax truth be known). When the race traitors and jew-loving government finally realize what evil they bring with them it will be too late. So to you, Zionist kike I say, "watch your back, because my 7.62 already has a bead."

it really does, for such a small country it managed to win the 6 day war against 5 countries.

It has the second best air force in the world.

ANd i am a jew also. :)

Egypt also claims victory during the 7days war (where did you get 6?), and given the numbers involved they have a real good reason. 1 destroyer sunk, 16 planes lost, 1 "misplaced" nuclear warhead and enough ground vehicles to wave a stick at. The only reason Israel is not a muslim state is that U.S. and U.K. have invested enough military assets that it makes most of central Europe look unarmed. On the 4th of May or so Israeli flown AH-64 Apache launched a rocket strike on a "suspected" location were two Palestinian were holed up. Kill count:12 (families included), now I really hate Islam, so don't get me wrong, Israel fought hard for their state; they bombed the Brittish embassy in 1948, they launched an offensive against Egypt in the late 70s, they butcher Palestinian Christians just as soon as Muslims and then they continue to bitch about the "Holocost" (holohoax truth be known). When the race traitors and jew-loving government finally realize what evil they bring with them it will be too late. So to you, Zionist kike I say, "watch your back, because my 7.62 already has a bead."

Damn, Archeotechus. I'd really hoped you were a spoof. But no, you really are an arrant [expletive deleted in the interest of forum decorum].

I am at best anti-Israeli (well, those Israelis that support their government). I am strongly pro-Palestinian and view what Israel is doing to the poor Palestinians as a war crime of the severest type.

I am an Israeli, Jewish.
I don't like all the situation in my country, there is to much hate in this country and around it.
I only want peace, i dont hate Arabic or any other peoples (exept specific people, like everyone has).
I dont want only peace just because I scare, i dont, i live in a place where i dont need to be scare, i want peace because it's good, war (any kind of it) just bring bad things with it.
I would be happy if everybody just could forget from the past and begin with a new life, peacefully life, with no hating each other.

And for all the Jewish's haters - What we did wrong?, ha?, everything started in WW2, when people start to hate Jewish people just because they was successfuls, no other reason, and what they did with their hate?, killed 6 milion Jewish peoples (and i believe there are more), and not just Jewish.
That's when it all started, if it wouldn't happend the Jewish people (me 2) lived in Europ today, with no trouble.

(sorry if i had spelling mistakes, i am only 14 years old).

My opinion:

Both sides have their crimes.

Arafat should be taken out of there and should face a tribunal for crimes against humanity. We all know he supports terrorist attacks.

Sharon should be expulsed of his governement and face the corruption charges in Israel and the charges of crimue against humanity he's facing
abroad. The only reason he's not at a tribunal at the Hague is diplomatic immunity.

Illegal settlements should be abandonned. Right now, the Israeli government is doing nothing to stop them popping back up after they're dismantled.

The security wall should not be constructed. If they want to construct one it should not cut acces from a farmer to it's field. They are annexing territory pure and simple.

I think america should stop to automatically block every single resolution against Israel. Granted some have been blocked for good reason but to stop a resolution denouncing the Israeli wall because `'It says nothing denouncing terrorism' is pure bullshit.

I think we should mind our own business! Americans think that they are the big bosses of the world, and know whats right. Which is wrong, look at whats going on in the US Iraqi and Afghan prisons, its a war crime and sick!

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

No mention of Palestinians sneaking to and through Israeli checkpoints to blow up buses, I see.

Question to Palestinian apologists: Do you think, if we erased all the terrorism from the Palestinians for the past 5 years, as if it never happened, do you think the Israeli army would be bulldozing city blocks and shooting missiles into cars today?


Answer: Hell no they would not be. They'd have no reason to.


And therein is the answer for who the blame should fall on in this area.

Question to Palestinian apologists: Do you think, if we erased all the terrorism from the Palestinians for the past 5 years, as if it never happened, do you think the Israeli army would be bulldozing city blocks and shooting missiles into cars today?


Answer: Hell no they would not be. They'd have no reason to.


And therein is the answer for who the blame should fall on in this area.

What makes you think they wouldn't be? they've been doing it for decades.

(Note: I'm no palestinian apologist, but I'm no Israeli apologist either)

[quote="Womblingdon"]
American aid to Israel benefits first of all America.

[quote]
No shit. :)

Womblingdon is absolutely correct on his point about the USA not being able to find an equally good ally in the region. National policy is, unsurprisingly, crafted to national interests. All of the morons that suggest we abandon Israel because of the Palestinians need to shut the fuck up, the Arabs would find some other reasons (such as our prosperity) to hate us regardless of our support for Israel. As long as our aid to Israel continues to guarantee their allegiance, and such allegiance benefits the United States, we will continue to aid Israel. That's just the way it is.

I see that many of you don't even have a clue about what's really going on.
You all just hear things about the Palestinians and their "suffering", and you start thinking that Israel is trying to kill them or whatever.

Do you really think that their protest is because we are killing their people (who happen to be terrorists, by the way)?
It all started long before that, at the time of the british mandate in Israel. Back then it was because we took their jobs (while their economy improved and they actually got more jobs), later it was because we took their land, and now it's because we are killing terrorists.

It's a bit funny to think that when a terrorist blows up in a bus full of civilians, it's simply because he is poor and his people just want to be free, but when we kill a single terrorists who is responsible for the deaths of dozens, it's a crime against humanity.

We, in schools, teach that we should strive to peace, we teach the children that peace is good, violance is bad, etc...

Do you know what they teach their children? they teach them that the jewish people are murderes, they show them maps of "Palestine" with no Israel on them, they tell them that they should hate us and destroy us.
And I'm not making this up, it is proven, and our military was shocked too when they first discovered this.

War crimes? WE are responsible of war crimes? how do you even dare to say that?! do you expect us to do nothing while they are killing civilians, while they are shooting at cars, while they enter israely houses murdering whole families just because they want to live in a country of their own?

Back in the 30s, we didn't kill terrorists, and they still murdered our people. today we can at least defend our country, and we will do so as long as there are threats on Israel and on it's people.

If we wanted to destroy them, we could have done thing long ago. notice that before terrorism - we did nothing. And it would be stupid to thing that today we blow up cars with terrorists just because it's fun.

I don't know if you don't see, or you just don't want to see, but even if Israel will be destroyed - they same things that we suffer from them today will get too you too someday, and I can only hope it won't be too late...

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes.

Israel is a loyal American ally. If it is committing wrongs, America should rebuke it, not abandon it.

IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them.

Doubtful. Israel is an excuse for Islamic terrorism, not the root cause.

If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel.

What a load. America was attacked because it was the "Great Satan"; was spreading its evil Western culture to the Muslim world and corrupting their youth; had troops on holy Saudi ground, etc. Israel was one cause- of many- not THE CAUSE.

Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

Highly debateable.

Many here seem to blame Sharon and Israel for the problems in the Middle East. What has Sharon done that is so bad? Building the fence or wall or whatever you like to call it? If the fence hinders Palestinian terrorists and slows the rate of attacks maybe, actual negotiations can take place. Sharon also seems to want to withdraw Israel forces from Gaza. How do these things make people place blame on him?

Arafat on the other hand, seems to have no interest in peace. Anytime a Palestinian official negotiates with Israelis Arafat cut thier political legs out from under them. Arafat is still the head of a terrorist network. The violence and bloodshed have made Arafat a very rich man, through support and donation to the various terrorist organisations he has lead. Arafat seems to have no interest in or anything to gain from peace. As long as Arafat is around or until the Palestinians see him for what he is and remove him from power, I don't think this will ever be over.

There is also a pervasive thought that the US is to blame here(and for everything else, but that's another discussion). The only talks that ever take place are facilitated and urged on by the US. There is also the assertion that the US exclusively supports Israel in the Middle East. It is true that Israel is the recieves more aid from the US than any other nation. What doesn't get any notice, or perhaps it's just convenient to ignore, is that Egypt gets the second most aid of any nation from the US, and that amount is nearly as much as Israel. I find the thought that the US would see a decrease or end to attention from Islamic terrorists if the US ended support for Israel laughable. Where is Israel mentioned in the title "The Great Satan"? How do Bali, Spain or Saudi Arabia support Israel? The only way too truely end the flood of Islamic terrorism is to see that Middle Eastern Muslims have political rights. It is far easier and less dangerous to cast a vote rather than blow oneself up to reach political goals.

As I dont mind Uk's buisness, or German buisness, I dont think a bunch of 15 years old kids can talk about whats going on here, In Israel. You don't understand, nor want to understand whats going on here. You are so hipocrit. When did a terorist blew him self up in the metro, eh? You cant judge a man if you have'nt went a mile in his shoes. Dear god, you don't even know how it is like to be scared.

There's a saying, which goes like "The crowd loves an underdog", if I'm not mistaken. Well, the Palestinians are underdogs, so its human nature to like the strong when neutral. You are neutral, and you should stay neutral minding your own meddeling buisness.

almost four years ago, three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped in the lebanon's border. The UN had records of the kidnapping, GOD DAMN NATO SOLDIERS WERE THERE! Trying to maintaing peace, yeah right.
So, the three Israli soldiers were kidnapped and murdered, by the orders of the Hizballa, and the UN stood there and did nothing. A year passed until they even revealed they had the tapes. SO WHERE IS YOUR NEUTRALITY?! When the Hamas's leader, who has the blood of hundreads of inicent Isralis die, you shout "War crime, war crime", but where are you when Israelis die?

I know, that your opinions do not matter, and will not matter. Spend your time doing better things than discussing matters not related to you in any way. Good day.

Israël, Palestine, Saudi-Arabia etc. are inherently all asshole states and should stop getting foreign aid; or suffer from any foreign influence whatsoever. The Saudis have proven time and again that they can not democratically handle their natural wealth. People that are are nearly starving in the streets, "religious" police, etc. And all that while the few thousands that have the money spend whole percentages of the GDP on sex and drugs behind their hypocrite religious façade. No more. The world should stop in and TAKE their oil. Come on, it can't be worse than what the populace is going through anyway.

As for the Israëli-Palestinian conflict: It will only end if both sides are thoroughly extinct.

If we can't have that: a trade-, aid- and media blockade and -embargos will do. Let them either be forced to work together or let them extinct each other if they want. Let them show the outside world what they are capable of. It is the only way.

Lebanon: Over 20,000 killed in 1982 Israeli invasion. 25,000 dead since 1982 because of the Israelis, according to the Lebanese government. Little to no pretext of self defense, Israeli authorities concede.


Um...the statement is true, but you might wanna turn the history book back one or two pages. Like, at the point where THE LEBANESE BEGAN FIRING MISSLES FROM THEIR BORDER INTO ISRAEL. The silos and military lebanese bases were in the mountains next to the israeli borders. Israel invaded Lebanon because of that. Get your facts straight.

The Americans should stop all support of Israel.
Agreed.

Israel is guilty of war crimes.
Agreed.

The Americans have sheltered them long enough.
Agreed.

IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them.
Agreed.

If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel.
Agreed.

Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?
Perhaps they haven't figured that out yet?

I would add the following:

1. Once the US has made it known that they no longer can maintain support for the Israeli position, let the transgressors on both sides know that the US will seek a resolution from the Security Council that any FUTURE transgressions by EITHER side would result in swift, unified action by UN forces. I honestly believe that that resolution would achieve quick passage with no vetoes.

2. Secure a UN Resolution that would see the Israelis withdraw from the territories that they have already agreed to, and that a timetable would be established for negotiation for the remaining disputed territory.

3. That the US would agree to withdraw from Iraq as soon as a UN force could safely be established, and an Iraqi provisional government (under UN guidance) was in place.

Pipe dream--------yup. :cry:

DP :shock:

TP :x

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

Ahh but that is where we meet Catch-22.

If we give in then the message is "See just pull some terrorist acts on the American mainland and they will abandon what ever you want."

As to 9/11, Palistine was probably a really tiny reason. Bin Laden probably could have cared less about Palistine. He was more pissed about the US in Saudi.

9/11 was not about killing Americans only. It was more geared at attacking the stock market.

Incidentally, other Arabs were not exactly hospitable to Palestinian refugees after Israel was created.

Israël, Palestine, Saudi-Arabia etc. are inherently all asshole states and should stop getting foreign aid; or suffer from any foreign influence whatsoever. The Saudis have proven time and again that they can not democratically handle their natural wealth. People that are are nearly starving in the streets, "religious" police, etc. And all that while the few thousands that have the money spend whole percentages of the GDP on sex and drugs behind their hypocrite religious façade. No more. The world should stop in and TAKE their oil. Come on, it can't be worse than what the populace is going through anyway.

As for the Israëli-Palestinian conflict: It will only end if both sides are thoroughly extinct.

If we can't have that: a trade-, aid- and media blockade and -embargos will do. Let them either be forced to work together or let them extinct each other if they want. Let them show the outside world what they are capable of. It is the only way.
You are suggesting anarchy and genocide. Not exactly acceptable solutions by any means.

I think Sharon, as well as Arafat in an inflammatory b@$t@rd. IMO, put Barak and Abbas back in their offices. Each of them had the best chance of achieving peace w/the other side. Oh yes, also remove Arafat's control over Palestinian Security forces


BTW on a side note I have a Jewish friend who cant stand Sharon (he HATES him and doesn't support him at all) or the current Israeli administration. *there goes the stereotype that all Jews are pro-Israeli*

Israël, Palestine, Saudi-Arabia etc. are inherently all asshole states and should stop getting foreign aid; or suffer from any foreign influence whatsoever. The Saudis have proven time and again that they can not democratically handle their natural wealth. People that are are nearly starving in the streets, "religious" police, etc. And all that while the few thousands that have the money spend whole percentages of the GDP on sex and drugs behind their hypocrite religious façade. No more. The world should stop in and TAKE their oil. Come on, it can't be worse than what the populace is going through anyway.

As for the Israëli-Palestinian conflict: It will only end if both sides are thoroughly extinct.

If we can't have that: a trade-, aid- and media blockade and -embargos will do. Let them either be forced to work together or let them extinct each other if they want. Let them show the outside world what they are capable of. It is the only way.
You are suggesting anarchy and genocide. Not exactly acceptable solutions by any means.
Death is the only language they understand.

Israël, Palestine, Saudi-Arabia etc. are inherently all asshole states and should stop getting foreign aid; or suffer from any foreign influence whatsoever. The Saudis have proven time and again that they can not democratically handle their natural wealth. People that are are nearly starving in the streets, "religious" police, etc. And all that while the few thousands that have the money spend whole percentages of the GDP on sex and drugs behind their hypocrite religious façade. No more. The world should stop in and TAKE their oil. Come on, it can't be worse than what the populace is going through anyway.

As for the Israëli-Palestinian conflict: It will only end if both sides are thoroughly extinct.

If we can't have that: a trade-, aid- and media blockade and -embargos will do. Let them either be forced to work together or let them extinct each other if they want. Let them show the outside world what they are capable of. It is the only way.
You are suggesting anarchy and genocide. Not exactly acceptable solutions by any means.
Death is the only language they understand.

Perhaps that's because it's the only language they've ever been spoken to in?

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

You are myopic.

America supports Israel because of strategic reasons. Its also a democracy which helps its image with the American public.

The WTC attacks were made because for 2 decades the American Congress kept placing restrictions upon the intelligence services on their gathering techniques and procedures. The presidential orders made by Carter didn't help either. The failure of intelligence community led to those attacks.

If America bowed to Arab terrorism, then that would set a horrible precedent. The slaughter of American citizens would thus be rewarded with the administration bowing to ANY of their demands. The opposite should be done, whenever they attack American interests, the ties should be reinforced and the warning given that further such attacks would result with a further free reign for Israel.

Personnally I don't care what Israel had done to date. The Soviet Union supported Arafat and the Arabs for over three decades and to me, anything that they supported is inherently wrong.

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

You are myopic.

America supports Israel because of strategic reasons. Its also a democracy which helps its image with the American public.

The WTC attacks were made because for 2 decades the American Congress kept placing restrictions upon the intelligence services on their gathering techniques and procedures. The presidential orders made by Carter didn't help either. The failure of intelligence community led to those attacks.

If America bowed to Arab terrorism, then that would set a horrible precedent. The slaughter of American citizens would thus be rewarded with the administration bowing to ANY of their demands. The opposite should be done, whenever they attack American interests, the ties should be reinforced and the warning given that further such attacks would result with a further free reign for Israel.

Personnally I don't care what Israel had done to date. The Soviet Union supported Arafat and the Arabs for over three decades and to me, anything that they supported is inherently wrong.

The Americans should stop all support of Israel. Israel is guilty of war crimes. The Americans have sheltered them long enough. IF the Americans would stop their biased support for Israel they might find they won't have so many Islamic terrorists trying to kill them. If you're an American, think of it like this, the WTC was basically destroyed on 9/11 more or less for your governments support of Israel. Your fellow Americans are dying for Israel, don't you get that?

Has more to do with Saudi Arabia. Palestine is fairly low on the list of Muslim concerns, their only real moderately-scaled material supporter has been Saddam Hussein, with mostly passive support from other predominantely-Islamic countries. Otherwise Israel would be a smoking crater.

Lets not forget which sides has the illegal settlements!

Exactly what is the point of that statement? One could just as easily say, "Let's not forget which side has suicide bombers!"

Yes, Israel has illegal settlements. And the IDF are making Palestinians' lives miserable. By the same token, Palestinian militias are regularly attacking- and murdering- Israelis, and the Palestinian government is entirely unwilling or able to stop them.

Israel doesn't have to use suicide bombers. They have been well funded.

As have the Palestinians. IDF incursions into PA buildings during Operation "Blow the Shit out of the West Bank" (or was it something shield?) found several documents detailing Arafat transfering funds to the Palestinian militias. And let's not forget the arms smuggling into Gaza via tunnels, or the Karina A munitions ship, etc...

Israel are also better with PR

A matter of perspective. Many people have an ingrained sympathy for an underdog, which, as you point out, is what the Palestinians are regularly identified as.

I'm just so sick and tired of the one sided bullsh*t. It's both of them. Not just the Palestinians. So when is Israel going to have to start playing fair?

What constitutes "playing fair"? Are the Palestinians "playing fair"? These people are regularly blowing the shit out of each other. Getting mad because one side won't "play fair", seems rather absurd and naive. It's a war, what do you expect them to do?

Note: I don't support the war, but it IS a war. Both sides are obviously going to go for the jugular. This is how wars work.

Said like a true Israeli

Exactly what is THAT supposed to mean? :x

The Zionists must be stopped and have the land returned to it's rightful owners before 1948!

Absentee Turkish landlords? :roll:

Why is there an Israel?

It is a long and complicated story. Needless to say, none of your offered hypotheses were correct.

Was it simply to solve the problem in Europe of what to do with so many Jews being 'displaced'?

No. The modern political Zionist movement began in the late 19th century, decades before the Holocaust. Before then, religious Zionism had always existed, although it played a generally minor role.

That said, the aftermath of WWII did have tremendous political consequences for the Zionist movement.

Why did they not just go home to the European nation that they once lived in? Did no one want them?

Two issues: First, many didn't want to go back to their native countries, probably having very nasty associations with neighbors that may have sold them out or stood by while they were brutalized, etc... Also the issue of, "This place treated me like crap, why would I want to stay there?"

Secondly, many also weren't welcome back. There were many cases of Jews who returned to their native towns being killed by Christian neighbors who didn't want to return their stolen property.

Where the Palestinians behind in their rent to Great Britain?

Most of the Palestinians were actually landless peasants. In the 1940s, most of the land was owned by absentee Arab landlords and various Zionist organizations that had bought the land legally.

Just as an aside, if you're interested in the history of Zionism/Zionist thought, you might want to check out http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/zion.html

Egypt also claims victory during the 7days war (where did you get 6?)

Let's see... where did we get 6 from... maybe because it's called the Six-Day-War?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/10/newsid_3047000/3047177.stm

Timeline:

Jun 5 1967- Israel launches attack on Arab states

Jun 10 1967- Israel ends six-day war

Let's review. 10 minus 5 equals...?

And forgive me, but I don't think Egypt losing Gaza and the entire Sinai peninsula really count as a "victory". Maybe I'm just weird that way.

Israel fought hard for their state; they bombed the Brittish embassy in 1948

Um... no they didn't. The Irgun bombed a British embassy in Rome in 1946, the same year it attacked the King David Hotel, but they did not bomb any embassy in 1948. Try again.

they launched an offensive against Egypt in the late 70s

With plenty of provocation from the Egyptians.

they butcher Palestinian Christians just as soon as Muslims

Source?

and then they continue to bitch about the "Holocost" (holohoax truth be known).

Source?

So to you, Zionist kike I say, "watch your back, because my 7.62 already has a bead."

And to you, pathetic sack of crap, I ask, "Do you even know the derivation of the term kike?"

I have a Jewish friend who cant stand Sharon (he HATES him and doesn't support him at all) or the current Israeli administration. *there goes the stereotype that all Jews are pro-Israeli*

One can be pro-Israel (or pro-Israeli) without being pro-Sharon. I for instance, would never vote for Sharon if I was in Israel. That said, I regularly defend Israel in debate. Not because Israel can do no wrong, but because a lot of the criticism I encounter directed against Israel is unfair or highly biased.

do not judge everything according to what that you see in television. like in most of subjects, there is more that you don't know and even more that you dont understand. negotiation is impossible because both of sides.

Hey, QahJoh, don't you love how Archeotochus (or however it's spelt) left out the Yom-Kippur War? You know, that little war in '73 in which Egypt and its allies launched a surprise invasion of Israel.
These morons that demand that Israel return to its pre-1967 borders ought to piss off. The Israelis liberated those territories with blood, why should they release their rightful dominion over such with ink?

Well there is a perfect way to solve the Israel v palestine problem. Kill the jews, kill the muslims, fix the problem

These morons that demand that Israel return to its pre-1967 borders ought to piss off. The Israelis liberated those territories with blood, why should they release their rightful dominion over such with ink?

Actually, I'm a proponent of the two-state solution. As are most Israelis. The problem is finding a way to guarantee that there will be peace when Israel withdraws (if not to the 1967 borders, then at least from most of the territories). As yet, no one has been able to figure out an answer.