NationStates Jolt Archive

While the President is paying the world lip-service about his "outrage"
the charges get worse and worse:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&u=/ap/20040505/ap_on_re_eu/britain_iraq_us_prisoner_abuse&printer=1

(U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey)


And this pretty much dissolves the argument that it was "just six guys" :

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

(Captain Robert Shuck, Frederick’s military attorney, closed his defense at the Article 32 hearing last month by saying that the Army was “attempting to have these six soldiers atone for its sins.” Similarly, Gary Myers, Frederick’s civilian attorney, told me that he would argue at the court-martial that culpability in the case extended far beyond his client. “I’m going to drag every involved intelligence officer and civilian contractor I can find into court,” he said. “Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance.”)

Bush just does what he is told to do by Uncle Dick.

I hope you guys will love 4.5 more years of Dubya.

Answer:
None of the above, he's learned that he can say and do anything without anyone objecting. His people are happy as long as they have their hamburgers and "reality" television.

Answer:
None of the above, he's learned that he can say and do anything without anyone objecting. His people are happy as long as they have their hamburgers and "reality" television.

That placates the Republican voters and leaves the democrats fuming...

or maybe he really is outraged?

I find myself being sicked by politics. Ok, so a few guys were tortured, and? They were a few! It is not like it is American policy to do that over there. I find myself becoming more level headed instead of jumping on every mistake the Bush administration does as if it is doomsday. I bet you anything the same thing would of happened if Gore would of been in office.

Do not get me wrong, I hate Bush. But you still have to think about things logically instead of going after him just because you can. Do not be so anti-Bush that you cannot see anything besides anti-Bush...ness.

I find myself being sicked by politics. Ok, so a few guys were tortured, and?



And some human beings were tortured. That's the beginning and end of the 'and'. The fact that it may well be commonplace does not, or at least should not, diminish from that fact. No matter where a person stand politically, it must come back to the best way to secure organise society. Well society is made of humans. I am sickened by the fact that so few people seem to capable of simple human empathy. If that is a lack of level headedness on my part, I certianly don't wish to become level headed any time soon.

I don't see how Bush is relevant to this. This is more about the US military and its culture. What we're seeing is more and more stuff surfacing, including an increasing number of murders and executions being confirmed and coming under investigation. Obviously stuff isn't right at a pretty basic level somewhere.

I don't see how Bush is relevant to this. This is more about the US military and its culture. What we're seeing is more and more stuff surfacing, including an increasing number of murders and executions being confirmed and coming under investigation. Obviously stuff isn't right at a pretty basic level somewhere.

Beucase Bush is the Commander In chief of the armed forces.
Although not personally responsible...he is accountable.
If these things are occuring its his duty to make them cease.

One man has said that at first he saw the US as liberators, but now he misses the old regime because at least when they tortured him, they didn't strip him naked to do it which is highly shameful in his culture.

One man has said that at first he saw the US as liberators, but now he misses the old regime because at least when they tortured him, they didn't strip him naked to do it which is highly shameful in his culture.
Yeah, pretty ironic how some people tortured by both parties reflect on their experiences and decide the Baathists didn't go quite as far. :roll:

I don't see how Bush is relevant to this. This is more about the US military and its culture. What we're seeing is more and more stuff surfacing, including an increasing number of murders and executions being confirmed and coming under investigation. Obviously stuff isn't right at a pretty basic level somewhere.

Beucase Bush is the Commander In chief of the armed forces.
Although not personally responsible...he is accountable.
If these things are occuring its his duty to make them cease.

Though protected by limited sovereign immunity, he can still be brought before a Court of Law as a co-defendant for actions committed as part of official policy. If there was an order or a policy somewhere within the DoD that soldiers were not to be given mandatory informative lessons in the Geneva Convention then there could be a case against the administration. Coincidently that is why Bush cannot apologize for the actions of the prison guards. Legally an apology can be construed as an admission of guilt in certain cases.

See U.S. vs. The People of Nicaragua.

By the way Mr. Squishy, you still owe me a pack of smokes (camel wides) and an essay on the geopolitical debate of Haushoffer v. the Trinity of Clausewitz.

Much as it pains me to say this...

Bush probably had little to do with the torture in Iraq. (directly, at least)
True, he was the one who decided to invade in the first place. That makes him a little responsible. And he's at least a little responsible for something I think contributed to all this: fear and hatred for Arabs as a reaction to Bush's constant yammering about terrorists.
Still, he wasn't masterminding this or anything, and I don't think he can really be held responsible. But he's still a horrible president. Vote Kerry!!!

I don't see how Bush is relevant to this.

Bush is publically expressing his outrage on American and Arab television, but the truth of the matter is that he knew about this abuse months ago.

Q: Why is there only 'outrage' after the story is leaked to the press?

I don't see how Bush is relevant to this. This is more about the US military and its culture. What we're seeing is more and more stuff surfacing, including an increasing number of murders and executions being confirmed and coming under investigation. Obviously stuff isn't right at a pretty basic level somewhere.

Beucase Bush is the Commander In chief of the armed forces.
Although not personally responsible...he is accountable.
If these things are occuring its his duty to make them cease.

Though protected by limited sovereign immunity, he can still be brought before a Court of Law as a co-defendant for actions committed as part of official policy. If there was an order or a policy somewhere within the DoD that soldiers were not to be given mandatory informative lessons in the Geneva Convention then there could be a case against the administration. Coincidently that is why Bush cannot apologize for the actions of the prison guards. Legally an apology can be construed as an admission of guilt in certain cases.

See U.S. vs. The People of Nicaragua.

By the way Mr. Squishy, you still owe me a pack of smokes (camel wides) and an essay on the geopolitical debate of Haushoffer v. the Trinity of Clausewitz.

Hmm...interesting...
What court exactly would Bush be accountable to ?

This is of course assuming that an order was given from that high up the chain of command.

as for the smokes and report....I cant find your address..and that restraining order is cumbersome.

I find myself being sicked by politics. Ok, so a few guys were tortured, and?



And some human beings were tortured. That's the beginning and end of the 'and'. The fact that it may well be commonplace does not, or at least should not, diminish from that fact. No matter where a person stand politically, it must come back to the best way to secure organise society. Well society is made of humans. I am sickened by the fact that so few people seem to capable of simple human empathy. If that is a lack of level headedness on my part, I certianly don't wish to become level headed any time soon.

You missed my point. I am not saying that I do not care about them, I am just saying do not blame the administration for what a hand full of soldiers did.

Hmm...interesting...
What court exactly would Bush be accountable to ?

This is of course assuming that an order was given from that high up the chain of command.

as for the smokes and report....I cant find your address..and that restraining order is cumbersome.

In the case I cited, the US government and indirectly the Office of the President were found guilty of illegally mining the harbors of Nicaragua. Other relevant cases for war crimes (which the maltreatment of POW's fall under, see Third Geneva Convention and the Rome Statute) have shown that the head of a government can be held liable if he had knowledge of the treatment of prisoners under the control of his/her forces.

Now Bush might not have known what was happening in Iraq (almost certain) he does know what has been happening in Gitmo. With the current case before the Supreme Court about the treatment there which does name Bush as a co-defendent, precedent could be made to link the two together.

Now this is all speculation but it's an interesting thought.

I find myself being sicked by politics. Ok, so a few guys were tortured, and? They were a few! It is not like it is American policy to do that over there. I find myself becoming more level headed instead of jumping on every mistake the Bush administration does as if it is doomsday. I bet you anything the same thing would of happened if Gore would of been in office.

Do not get me wrong, I hate Bush. But you still have to think about things logically instead of going after him just because you can. Do not be so anti-Bush that you cannot see anything besides anti-Bush...ness.It's more than a few, SD. Josh Marshall over at www.talkingpointsmemo.com is linking to reports all over the place that seem to indicate that this kind of abuse was widespread including this transcript (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118955,00.html) from the O'Reilly Factor where Bill interviewed Seymour Hersh, the man who became famous for breaking the My Lai story from the Vietnam War.

As to your assertion that the same thing would have happened had Gore been in office, I must take exception. Were Gore president, I seriously doubt we'd be in Iraq right now. That's not to say that Bush is directly responsible for this behavior--he's not--but he's responsible in the sense that the soldiers are there because of his determination to take this country into an unnecessary war.

Answer:
None of the above, he's learned that he can say and do anything without anyone objecting. His people are happy as long as they have their hamburgers and "reality" television.


It's one stupid comment after another with you isn't it?

or maybe he really is outraged?i agree with this... the options in this poll were completely biased... im sure whoever is against bush would try and say he called the 6 people and gave them specific instructions to torture them, and that it is his fault. face it... you guys are out of ways to elect a democrat, and all you can do is make feeble attacks at a good man.. like someone else said, i hope you enjoy the next 4.5 years of bush, cause he will be in office

or maybe he really is outraged?i agree with this... the options in this poll were completely biased... im sure whoever is against bush would try and say he called the 6 people and gave them specific instructions to torture them, and that it is his fault. face it... you guys are out of ways to elect a democrat, and all you can do is make feeble attacks at a good man.. like someone else said, i hope you enjoy the next 4.5 years of bush, cause he will be in officeDude--shut the hell up and actually read what people are saying before you make yourself any more of an ass.

or maybe he really is outraged?i agree with this... the options in this poll were completely biased... im sure whoever is against bush would try and say he called the 6 people and gave them specific instructions to torture them, and that it is his fault. face it... you guys are out of ways to elect a democrat, and all you can do is make feeble attacks at a good man.. like someone else said, i hope you enjoy the next 4.5 years of bush, cause he will be in officeDude--shut the hell up and actually read what people are saying before you make yourself any more of an ass.well actually i do read what people were saying, and if you didnt say anything that this relates to, then it wasnt dirrected at you... it was aimed at the thousands of nationstats posts that abuse bush, and i jumped in and had my say here, so back off...also, i can have an opinion that the poll was biased if i have it, and i dont need you calling me an ass for it... im sure somewhere in those 7000 posts of yours that you put in an opinion or two

or maybe he really is outraged? i agree with this... the options in this poll were completely biased...

If he were really outraged then wouldn't it have made more since for action to have been taken months ago ~ when he first learned about it?

Think about that for a second... He's not sorry that it happened, he's sorry that everyone knows about it!

Well its just Americas own fault that they have all those problem in Iraq nowadays, and to make matters even more complicated; they cant leave.

If they leave, some1 crazier then Saddam, and more anti-America then Saddam will rise to take Saddams place (or rise to become leader of Iraq). They dont want that to happen, nor will prolly all other western nations like to c that happen. So they have to stay to implement a stable government, which in their eyes comes in the form of democracy. THe problem with staying is however that theyll have to stay there for the next 25 years, and thus losing an awful lot of money....

If they stay however, like i said, theyll lose money. But not only that, becoz theyll also lose lotsa soldiers in the upcoming 5 years, trying to maintain order and the law. Also i means for all presidents following Bush to maintain the present way of buisness. Honestly i think a democrat will retrieve all military from Iraq as soon as he has been instituted.

Btw, im Dutch ^^

Sry for the double post ^^

Well its just Americas own fault that they have all those problem in Iraq nowadays, and to make matters even more complicated; they cant leave.


Sure we can... America did fine after the British left ~ a rebellion of two here, a civil war there... still, nothing that the British could help us with.

The Iraqis are all adults, they can take care of themselves...

Q: Why is there only 'outrage' after the story is leaked to the press?

Interesting this has not been addressed as far as i can see, interesting to hear an answer. It seems to always be the same with politicians, they only begin to care when the story gets out and may affect thier votes, they only apologise when they think they look bad.

The buck stops.....where exactly?

The buck stops.....where exactly?

Bush is going to claim that Rumsfeld didn't tell him the severity of the abuse, and that is why he didn't react immediatly -- then he's going to say that he didn't see the pictures until they were on CBS

The reason they're willing to let Rumsfeld take the fall is because they don't expect he'll resume his post in the even of another Bush tenure.

Q: Why is there only 'outrage' after the story is leaked to the press?

Interesting this has not been addressed as far as i can see, interesting to hear an answer. It seems to always be the same with politicians, they only begin to care when the story gets out and may affect thier votes, they only apologise when they think they look bad.

Journalist are asking, but they're being called unAmerican for doing so...

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143740

As a side issue, he knew about 9/11 before it happened too - when he is first video'd about it, you can see it in his eyes - he's not shocked or sad, he's angry. Very well informed is that man.

im sure whoever is against bush would try and say he called the 6 people and gave them specific instructions to torture them, and that it is his fault. face it... you guys are out of ways to elect a democrat, and all you can do is make feeble attacks at a good man..


MY MAJOR ACHIEVEMENTS, by W!

Just so you know ...........

*I attacked and took over 2 Countries, unilaterally and pre-emptively.

*I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.

*I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!).

*I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed
in any 12 month period.

*I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock
market.

*I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

*In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on
vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).

*After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over
the worst security failure in US history.

*I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any
president in US history.

*In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

*I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than
any other president in US history.

*I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a
12-month period.

*I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions
than any president in US history.

*I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since
the advent of TV.

*I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than
any other US president in history.

*I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to
intervene when corruption was revealed.

*I cut health care benefits for war veterans.

*I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take
to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for
protest against any person in the history of mankind.

*I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

*I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

*Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history.
(The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)

*I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union
simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.

*I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in
any country in the history of the world.

*I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military
occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United
Nations and the vast majority of the international community.

*I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the
history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"
(only one letter away from BS).

*I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more
than any other president in US history (Ronnie was tough to beat, but I did
it!!).

*I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove
the US from the Human Rights Commission.

*I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the
US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

*I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

*I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. I withdrew from the World
Court of Law.

*I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default
no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

*I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election
inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.

*I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign
donations.

*The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best
friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world
history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

*I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US
history.

*I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack
(and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

*I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

*I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year
made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest
diplomatic failure in US and world history).

*I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of
Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
stability.

*I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.

*I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who
violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

*I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any
other president in US history.

*I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than
two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

*RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one conviction
for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been
erased and is not available).

*I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of
war.

*I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions
about drug use. (wink,wink)

*All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been
spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and
unavailable for public view.

*All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

*All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which
I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable
for public view.

*Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding
public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public
review.

So, why shouldn't you vote for me in November?

With Love,

GEORGE W. BUSH
The White House, Washington, DC

Note: this information should be useful to voters in the 2004 election.
Circulate to as many citizens you think would be helped to be reminded about this record