NationStates Jolt Archive

So.. Ive been thinking about how I answer some of the issues within my nation. Ideally... I would like my nation to be as as close to Utopian as possible.. while still being "balanced".

Why not Utopian all the way?

Well... Ive had to put in some thought as to what it would take to make any society/nation Utopian. To do that... you would have to think about good and evil. To measure how good something is... you would need something bad to compare it too. Vice versa for something bad. Therefore... wouldnt it be true that for good to exist.. bad must exist as well? Which would also mean.. a Utopian nation/society can never exist.

I made it how I thought it would be perfect.... Corporate Police State... Oh yeah

Society can not achieve Utopia, because there will always be a divide. ultimately, if you eliminate all possible divides you will reach the law of thermodynamics and diminishing returns, which will create a energy divide. Some people will get more energy than others. Right now we call that energy money. The only way I presently see for the creation of a potential utopian society is to have a complete collapse of our current one and a signifigant reduction in population, followed by forced inter-racial breeding and the outlawing of religion (two items which the rich have always used to play the poor off of each other). After that you simply have to find a way to make communism work without destroying the incentives created by capitalism.

There can be a Utopian society of all people within the society are wholly committed to making one.

Society can not achieve Utopia, because there will always be a divide. ultimately, if you eliminate all possible divides you will reach the law of thermodynamics and diminishing returns, which will create a energy divide. Some people will get more energy than others. Right now we call that energy money. The only way I presently see for the creation of a potential utopian society is to have a complete collapse of our current one and a signifigant reduction in population, followed by forced inter-racial breeding and the outlawing of religion (two items which the rich have always used to play the poor off of each other). After that you simply have to find a way to make communism work without destroying the incentives created by capitalism.

So are you saying that because of money utopia can never exist?

Society can not achieve Utopia, because there will always be a divide. ultimately, if you eliminate all possible divides you will reach the law of thermodynamics and diminishing returns, which will create a energy divide. Some people will get more energy than others. Right now we call that energy money. The only way I presently see for the creation of a potential utopian society is to have a complete collapse of our current one and a signifigant reduction in population, followed by forced inter-racial breeding and the outlawing of religion (two items which the rich have always used to play the poor off of each other). After that you simply have to find a way to make communism work without destroying the incentives created by capitalism.

So are you saying that because of money utopia can never exist?

That may be what Freindly Humans is saying, but I would like to add a bit to it. The incentive needs to be removed, yes, but the socialization of persons to view material gain as their ultimate goal would also need to be removed.

There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals, families, and individual firms and enterprizes.

(Charlotte Church was the iron lady of Britain from 1998 to 2002)

Most utopian societies are socialist and socialism sucks.

The road to a Utopia would be like walking a mile on a road made up of shattered glass

There can be a Utopian society of all people within the society are wholly committed to making one.

People are naturally bad.

Carfy is a utopian community. I've done what I think would be the best, going with some of the more socialist ideals, I mean, Carfy is the founder of Socialist Paradise. So things like the environment is high on my list, as well as political and civil freedoms.

We do have national defense, but only defensive measures. There are many of them, but I've RPed Carfy as having no offensive weapons of war. Carfy is an island and is relatively isolated, although we do get along with our socialist neighbors.

But outside of NS, I don't think it could happen.

Carfy is a utopian community. I've done what I think would be the best, going with some of the more socialist ideals, I mean, Carfy is the founder of Socialist Paradise. So things like the environment is high on my list, as well as political and civil freedoms.

We do have national defense, but only defensive measures. There are many of them, but I've RPed Carfy as having no offensive weapons of war. Carfy is an island and is relatively isolated, although we do get along with our socialist neighbors.

But outside of NS, I don't think it could happen.

But...you have 100% tax.

Carfy is a utopian community. I've done what I think would be the best, going with some of the more socialist ideals, I mean, Carfy is the founder of Socialist Paradise. So things like the environment is high on my list, as well as political and civil freedoms.

We do have national defense, but only defensive measures. There are many of them, but I've RPed Carfy as having no offensive weapons of war. Carfy is an island and is relatively isolated, although we do get along with our socialist neighbors.

But outside of NS, I don't think it could happen.

But...you have 100% tax.

It's a side effect of having so many social programs. I guess that's how a real-life utopia would exist... or with no money at all.

Just bumbling along.
Sick of dismissing issues because they don't have an option I agree with, so have been taking a jump one way or the other, hence the high tax rate.
All for people having civil freedoms, don't think they always know whats best for them. Not always a fan of democracy! :o

Most utopian societies are socialist and socialism sucks.

I think you should conceal your opinions a little more, what have socialists ever done to you that is worse than what some nonparlamentarical ideologies have done/wishes to do to you?

(I am not saying that I even support socialism but I think you should treat serious things created to do people well with respect)

There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals, families, and individual firms and enterprizes.

(Charlotte Church was the iron lady of Britain from 1998 to 2002)

There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals, families, and individual firms and enterprizes.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/data.jpg
What is culture, then?

People are naturally bad.

How do you know? If I remember correctly, you are a fascist.

Most utopian societies are socialist and socialism sucks.

Socialism is treating people as humans rather than numbers.

I don't think a utopia is possible because we all have different ideas of what is utopian. A transhumanist and a primitivist could never agree on it. An anarchist and a fascist couldn't, either.

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"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg

What do you mean there is no such thing as society. Society is one of those things that exists no matter what, as long as humans interact with humans. You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Socialism does not suck, if done right, which is hasn't been done so far. Ideal socialism is where money doesn't exist, and all luxury is available to everyone. Essentialy, is what socialism is trying to accomplish is for everyone to live in the same enviroment. For everyone to exist as true equals, a balance in nature is created. This creats harmony. Say it with me now. Harmony. It is the quintessential part of life. Which brings me to my next point. You claim people are naturally bad, but that is becase people are constantly competing to get ahead of the next person. Ensuring a happy life means there is a good chance you are going to step on a few toes to get there. So if the world was at harmony, crime wouldn't exist. So you see socialism does not suck. If done correctly, it could be the way to achive world peace. Someone has obviously lied to you for you to develope such a warped view about the world.
If you'd like me to, I can explain to you how to make socialism work, and create natural order. But I'm not gonna waste my time if you don't care.

Back in college, I took part in a Leadership Seminar with other students from the community college district I was attending. At one point we were split up into small groups of 6-8 people and we were told to agree on an ideal society for all of us. This one woman in my group was pissing me off because she wouldn't agree that basic human needs (food, shelter, etc.) were more important than the freedom to express oneself. I kept asking her questions so that I could understand where she was coming from, and she kept blowing me off. The "moderator" for our table jumped in and said that we should all try to understand one another's points of view. I snapped at him that that's what I was trying to do and that he should keep his comments to himself.

We never did agree on what was most important. One group took the cop-out of saying that they would not impose their feelings of what was ideal on anyone else, because everyone's needs/wants/desires are different.

Great. Now I'm all pissed off again.

TAG

An interesting discussion indeed.

Just trying to create realism.

depending on what you mean by utopia, the anarchist federation of free soviets may or may not be one. it certainly isn't a society existing in perfect harmony or anything.

For a while I wasn't so much trying for a utopia as just answering the way I figured I would if I was actually presented with the issues. It worked out pretty well for a while, but as my ideology changed I started more consciously shaping my nation, so now I would say that yes, I'm going for a utopia with my nation.

tried it with earlier nations, but you have a very bad economy. so i figured id go the oposite route at least once.

There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals, families, and individual firms and enterprizes.

(Charlotte Church was the iron lady of Britain from 1998 to 2002)

WTF?!

At first I was planning to make Sino my utopia. It didn't quite turn out that way as "Corporate Police State" isn't quite what I had in mind.

My utopia is a large nation (at least the size of Australia), with a large population of ultra-nationalists. The government would be ruled by the military. The overall system of thought is conservative/moralistic militant nationalism. It must have powerful economy, industry/technology and military. The people are all ever so devoted to their state's prestige as they have all received some degree of military training.

The overall landscape is highly industrialized and urbanized. The national flag (a politically sacred piece of clothwork) will be an all pervasive sight as it is flown, hung and draped in almost every public space.

This nation with its powerful military is not afraid to participate in war as it does not like getting pushed and shoved around. The people will be moralistic and sometimes over-righteous but lack the compassion for weaker nations. The is no tolerance of crime (including moral lapses) as convicted felons may be executed publically (or such processes by broadcasted) by shooting. The economy is capitalistic (with basic workers rights) and all who work are encouraged to work overtime.

Basically that's all I want Sino to be, and it's getting there.

Utopias are unachievable as some aspects of the goals are beyond the level humans can reach and individuals always have disagreement.

Of course utopia is possible. But who defines a utopia? Who takes a civilization and says, "This is utopia."?

A civilization can be called utopia if the general populace believes it to be such. If you condition the population of a society to believe that the system they are currently living under is, and always will be, the BEST system, then that is utopia.

Money is irrelevant.

Economic systems are irrelevant.

Political ideologies are irrelevant.

What is relevant is the mindset of the people, and nothing else.

Oh, and by the way, Big Brother is watching.

Yes, I try to go for my own ideal society with my nation.

CharlotteMaria is the best place to be. There is no such thing as society, no such thing as a community, and there no such thing as culture.

Thatcherism rules! :)

CharlotteMaria is the best place to be. There is no such thing as society, no such thing as a community, and there no such thing as culture.

Thatcherism rules! :)

CharlotteMaria is a sick place of eternal misery.

Zlovenia's currently categorized as a left-wing utopia. And it's quite socialist. :)

I think that small-scale, voluntary utopian societies are perfectly possible; social engineering is a science though not a well-known one at this point. For a great study of socialism versus capitalism, not to mention utopia versus dystopia, I suggest Ursula Leguin's book Disposessed. It's fiction and a very good read--but also thought provoking.

A couple of examples, also from science fiction, of what social engineering is, and what a carefully planned society can look like, can be found in Glory Season by David Brin, or in Sharon Shinn's series of Samaria novels.

Of course, in order to create utopia, you must first define it--and our personal definitions will, of course, vary.

For a great study of socialism versus capitalism, not to mention utopia versus dystopia, I suggest Ursula Leguin's book Disposessed. It's fiction and a very good read--but also thought provoking.

anarres isn't exactly utopia. more of an ambiguous utopia really. though i wouldn't mind living there, even if their anarchism isn't exactly my anarchism.