NationStates Jolt Archive

Are you Anti-Semitic? And if you are...why?

And serious, well thought out answers only please, I don't want anything like "Jews are gay that's why". I am seriously curious why anti-semitism exists.

but you could ask the same thing about any kind of racial or other prejudice. surely the reasons people have for those attitudes are pretty much the same. just read the threads.

well, firstly i just have to say that i'm not at all anti-semitic, however i do know that the reason Hitler was is that he was convinced that Jews were taking over because a lot of businesses were owned by Jews and so a lot of them were rich, although there may have been other reasons as well.

whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate. :evil:

but you could ask the same thing about any kind of racial or other prejudice. surely the reasons people have for those attitudes are pretty much the same. just read the threads.

Not necessarily the same. Racism toward say...blacks is a hatred for them, for their skin color, for their actions, for the way they treat people and how they can be perceived as ruining society. Hatred against Chinese or Japanese can relate back to the fall of China to the Soviet Union or the fanaticism of the former Empire.

Anti-semitism doesn't seem to have any real basis - especially for these KKK whackos who think it's neat to dress up in bedsheets and say "OMGWTF I HATE JEWS KK THX BYEZ".

They, and others, seem to hate Jews simply because it seems like the "right" thing to do. Could any anti-semitics tell me why you have this notion? What do you hate about them?


whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate.

Then tell me, how do they discriminate? More facts people.

Oh, i see. you mean like fairy tinkerbelly said, historical reasons rather than merely 'they're different'. well in the middle ages christianity prohibited money-lending, and judaism didn't, so jews often became money-lenders, and the christians didn't like it. more the christians' problem i reckon, sounds like sour grapes if you ask me ;)

There are lots of reasons (excuses) for anti-semitism.
I would like to add that I don't condone or agree in any way with anti-semitism, this list is here for reference, not in any way as an attack on anyone.

For centuries many people believed that Jews killed children in their religious practices. This belief was one of the reasons that all Jews were expelled from England under (I think) Edward I.

There is the frequent accusation that Jews were the killer's of Christ.

There is a belief that businesses such as money lending are Jewish businesses and due to the nature of these businesses those associated weren't particularly liked.

There are other reasons, and you end up with anti-zionist explanations and arguments about where the borders should or shouldn't be.

If you're anywehre near London, I can't recomend the Holocaust exibition at the Imperial war museum it's harrowing but does deal with the background of anti semitism as well as the concentration / death camps.

I would like to add again that I am not making a case for anti-semitism or one against it (which I will do if asked) I am simply attempting to inform.

I was at my jewish m8s house about 8 hours ago. I didn't even realise he was jewish for ages, and nothings changed so I assume I'm not an anti-semite. I dislike 50% of jewish people I've met however, although thats mainly because the other guy fucks me off....

whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate.

Then tell me, how do they discriminate? More facts people.

Well, they call themselves "the chosen people of God"...

Very much like Hitler called the aryans the genetic superior people...

Not to say that the fact that those Jews who discriminate by promoting the racist idea of being the chosen of God in any way would justify discrimination directed against them, it obviously does not, yet they are clearly as discriminating as the anti-semit.

Why on earth would you even consider being against someone because they followed a specific religion? That's just crazy (provided, of course, that the teachings of that religion accept the rule of law.)

I don't like Israel's policy towards Palestinians but that's a separate matter.

This whole discussion is just offensive. Your religion is a private matter for you, and if you keep it that way you can be Jewish, Christian or worship frogs for all I care. Your religion puts no onus on me whatsoever, to do anything whatsoever. It's like your sexual preferences - your business and not mine.

Oh, i see. you mean like fairy tinkerbelly said, historical reasons rather than merely 'they're different'. well in the middle ages christianity prohibited money-lending, and judaism didn't, so jews often became money-lenders, and the christians didn't like it. more the christians' problem i reckon, sounds like sour grapes if you ask me ;)

Especially given that, as soon as serious money started to be made in the usury trade around the 13th and 14th centuries, the Church dropped its objection to money-lending quicker than a handful of hot cat poo. Hence the flourishing of banking cities like Florence and such zippy innovations as the Vatican Bank. Amazing how quickly theology can move when there's money to be made.

As for anti-semitism: the Jews were targets of hatred across Europe because they were different. In the absense of any large population of a markedly different colour their religion, dress and language marked them out. Everything else -- the money, the "blood libel", the "Christ killer" accusation, all of it -- was just the excuse du jour. There are certain people who, due to some defect in their upbringing, their neurology or possibly both, find it necessary to hate other people in order to inflate their own sense of self-worth. They will seek out those whom they can label as "other" as targets for their hate. If they feel the need to justify their actions and opinions, they'll concoct the most egregious BS out of thin air. Such people are all around, and of all creeds and colours. If the entire human race had the same exterior physical details there would still be discrimination against (or in favour of) Belief System A, or Lifestyle B, or Sexuality C.

Well, they call themselves "the chosen people of God"...

Very much like Hitler called the aryans the genetic superior people...


Now you've brought up the difference between Judaism as a religion and Jewish ethnicity. Which is a tangled subject but I would point out that not every person of Jewish descent believes that they are the chosen people of God. And the Hitler analogy is I think not accurate. I don't think the claim that Jews have a special relationship with God entails the claim that all other races should die. Or that other races are inferior. Except for the extremists, most believing Jews I have spoken to seem to understand and practice this claim in a similar way to any group that feels it has a seperate code relating to it: priests of any religion, doctors, lawyers, soldiers.

Anti-Semitism is a funny kind of hatred. No anti-Semite will ever admit it, but anti-Semitism is the only kind of racism that boils down to the belief that the "inferior race" is immensely superior to the rest of the races. They are immesurably richer, smarter and more powerful than all other nations who, are, in the perception of an anti-Semite, just stupid ignorant savages who are easily fooled, bribed and corrupted, like retarded children. They invented concsience, democracy. liberty and equal rights, they take over easily ny new society they come into, they control the press, they control governments, and it doesn't even matter if this government gets overthrown, because only Jews can change governments. In other words, anti-Semitism boils down to three main factors: paranoia, search for a scapegoat and, most importantly, the hater's inferiority syndrom.

And can someone please explain to me why the word "ScApEgOaT", that clearly exists in my previous post when I try to edit it, transforms into "g0at" when I click the "submit" button?

Now you've brought up the difference between Judaism as a religion and Jewish ethnicity. Which is a tangled subject but I would point out that not every person of Jewish descent believes that they are the chosen people of God.

I agree. And I already pointed this out in my previous by formulating myselfs as follows: "those Jews who discriminate by promoting the racist idea of being the chosen of God"

"Those Jews" as oppossed to "all jews".

Yet, I should have expressed myself more clearly in my initial statement that they call themselves Gods' chosen people. So, I stand corrected :)

And the Hitler analogy is I think not accurate. I don't think the claim that Jews have a special relationship with God entails the claim that all other races should die. Or that other races are inferior.

Taking into consideration that those Jews who believe that the Jewish people are Gods' chosen people and that only they will enjoy the afterlife in the presence of God, the rest going to hell, and it must be clear I was an still am referring to the extreme right wing, I'd say that comes down to them saying "we are spiritually superior in the eyes of God and all the non-jews will enjoy eternal damnation". The later seems to be a faith far worse than just death.

Wow this is a stupid thread.

Wow this is a stupid thread.

Oh, we have threads that contain much more stupidity than this one! :wink:

But are there not other religions which have said the same (sort of) thing? e.g. "We are the chosen and the rest of you will go to Hell/some bad place after you die"?
There's nothing there that's exclusively the province of the ultra-orthodox wing of Judaism, surely?

As for hatred of the Jews themselves, per se, I like the explanation of the inferiority complex. It seems so accurate to me.
And Hitler again tried to prove his "people"s superiority in the 36 olympics. I'm not making a case for racial superiority of any race, but let's just say that his theory was proved wrong.

No such thing as superior race (some even say that there's no such thing as "race" any more, either), and your religion's your own, as long as you don't try and force it upon anyone else.
The only thing that, in my opinion, can really be said to be superior or inferior is mindset, and even that can vary from situation to situation.

Wow this is a stupid thread.

WoW!! Thats a 'smart' reply :roll:

Wow this is a stupid thread.

WoW!! Thats a 'smart' reply :roll:

Simple answer to this question would be YES!!! :twisted:

but you could ask the same thing about any kind of racial or other prejudice. surely the reasons people have for those attitudes are pretty much the same. just read the threads.

Not necessarily the same. Racism toward say...blacks is a hatred for them, for their skin color, for their actions, for the way they treat people and how they can be perceived as ruining society. Hatred against Chinese or Japanese can relate back to the fall of China to the Soviet Union or the fanaticism of the former Empire.

Anti-semitism doesn't seem to have any real basis - especially for these KKK whackos who think it's neat to dress up in bedsheets and say "OMGWTF I HATE JEWS KK THX BYEZ".

You know all the usual excuses they give. It's stuff like "they're the ones with all the money", "they're the ones behind the liberal media" (actually, there are/were quite a few neocons i.e. REPUBLICANS who are are Jewish, so that statement is a lie),
"they have all the money and the banks etc." You know...B@#LS#$T.
And some of it's upbringing, too.
Some people are raised in stupidity and so they go out with the mindset of hating someone because of their race.


They, and others, seem to hate Jews simply because it seems like the "right" thing to do. Could any anti-semitics tell me why you have this notion? What do you hate about them?
I'm no anti-semitic (although I am against what Ariel Sharon is doing to the Palestinians, but that is another story altogether) and, in fact, my great-grandmother and her son/my grandfather fled Nazi Germany after they got my great-grandfather (my father's side, though, so I'm not Jewish, and neither's he - Jewish racial decent is matrilinnear, and my grandfather married a non-jew i.e. shiksa).
Thing is, there's discrimination everywhere. People can ask "why do you hate {x} race.
I wasn't quite convinced as to your explanations for hatred of blacks.
"The way they treat people". What's that all about (he says, not living in America)? In fact, most of the people who have treated me wrongly in this world have been of white skin colour, maybe one or two Maori (but that's circumstantial), one or two Japanese (again circumstantial), but most of the black people here have treated me kindly.
So perhaps I'm missing something by living so far away from America.
In what way do Blacks treat people badly?

Then tell me, how do they discriminate? More facts people.
I think (s)he was meaning that you're discriminating against hir for
discriminating against people. It almost sounded facetious.
:wink:

Anti-semitic? No.
Anti-zionist? Yes.

Wow this is a stupid thread.

WoW!! Thats a 'smart' reply :roll:

Simple answer to this question would be YES!!! :twisted:

And what question exactly is it that you are referring to?...

There are no good historical or ethnic grounds for anti-semitism, but there is one good modern political reason.
The Jewish lobby in the US is very powerful, and controls an inordinate proportion of the funding for both the Democrats and the Republics. As a result, Israel has had nearly unqualified support from the US in its suppression of Palestine (with the notable exception of Clinton, who at least started to try and solve the problem). If the Jewish lobby in the US were not as strong, the Palestinian extremists would not be so extreme, because the Israeli government would not have been allowed to terrorize those on the West Bank and in Gaza, and they would have acknowledged the necessary existence of a Palestinian state.
Anti-Semitism should be avoided at all costs, but at this rate, the whole Western world will be branded 'Judaeist' and hated as Jews or Jew-lovers by the Middle East, leading to an unwanted backlash on ordinary, innocent Jews. The people of America must strive to curtail the power of the Jewish political lobby. Or else anti-semitism will be back for good.

Anti-Semitism is a funny kind of hatred. No anti-Semite will ever admit it, but anti-Semitism is the only kind of racism that boils down to the belief that the "inferior race" is immensely superior to the rest of the races. They are immesurably richer, smarter and more powerful than all other nations who, are, in the perception of an anti-Semite, just stupid ignorant savages who are easily fooled, bribed and corrupted, like retarded children. They invented concsience, democracy. liberty and equal rights, they take over easily ny new society they come into, they control the press, they control governments, and it doesn't even matter if this government gets overthrown, because only Jews can change governments. In other words, anti-Semitism boils down to three main factors: paranoia, search for a g0at and, most importantly, the hater's inferiority syndrom.

I wouldn't say it's the only such kind.
Local feelings are remarkably similar against Indians in SOuth Africa, and against Chinese in Southeast Asia.
It's resentment and jealousy, I think.

Simple answer to this question would be YES!!! :twisted:

And what question exactly is it that you are referring to?...

The initial question: "Are you Anti-Semitic?", presumably.

The fact that his national motto is "Our society rots and slowly dies - The jews are winning" is a bit of a hint.

here is the problem with the jews from the national socialist prospective. a nation is a group ogf people bond by common culture, common prospective and common goals. the jews within any nation except isreal are not truely part of that common heritage, they are a different and distinct heritage which follows its own interests at the expense of the nation and the people. the are parasites who use all the opportunities offered them in a nation, but return none of the loyalty and brotherhood expected of a citizen.

in certain parts of south asia the same argument could be applied to the chinese, but even they assimilate better into the nation than the jews.

here is the problem with the jews from the national socialist prospective. a nation is a group ogf people bond by common culture, common prospective and common goals. the jews within any nation except isreal are not truely part of that common heritage, they are a different and distinct heritage which follows its own interests at the expense of the nation and the people. the are parasites who use all the opportunities offered them in a nation, but return none of the loyalty and brotherhood expected of a citizen.

in certain parts of south asia the same argument could be applied to the chinese, but even they assimilate better into the nation than the jews.

File under "egregious BS"

A culture is persecuted for over 1000 years, for a variety of invented reasons. Eventually a diseased ideology arises which has the gall to blame this persecuted culture for "not integrating". The fact that adherents of this ideology then go on to slaughter millions, before being rapidly and comprehensively defeated while their swivel-eyed leader dies grovelling in a hole while his "thousand year Reich" literally collapses around his ears, should give you an idea of just how ripe this particular line of BS is. But I suppose it does answer the original query.

Anti-semitic? No.
Anti-zionist? Yes.
What he said.

whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate. :evil:

Discrimination isn't inherently bad, particularly when it's based upon belief and one's actions. However racism is based on general principles; naturally meaning that it's going to be wrong in some instances, and thus tends to be born from intellectual laziness for whatever reason. As such it can be discarded, and any adherents condemned for their daftness, paricularly once they start acting upon said daftness.

The vast majority of religions call their adherents their chosen. They too should be similarly damned. Obviously, though, the problem with comparing Hitler and a general idea of religious-Jewish opinion is that the vast majority of Jews haven't recently all support a large cooked-infidel buffet, whereas Hitler the individual did authorise the Holocaust.

Everyone should force their beliefs on everyone else; if you believe something is right then why allow bad things to happen? They just shouldn't expect everyone else to be particularly supportive.

whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate. :evil:

Discrimination isn't inherently bad, particularly when it's based upon belief and one's actions. However racism is based on general principles; naturally meaning that it's going to be wrong in some instances, and thus tends to be born from intellectual laziness for whatever reason. As such it can be discarded, and any adherents condemned for their daftness, paricularly once they start acting upon said daftness.

The vast majority of religions call their adherents their chosen. They too should be similarly damned by people who don't agree. Obviously, though, the problem with comparing Hitler and a general idea of religious-Jewish opinion is that the vast majority of Jews haven't recently all supported a large cooked-infidel buffet, whereas Hitler the individual did authorise the Holocaust.

Everyone should force their beliefs on everyone else; if you believe something is right then why allow bad things to happen? They just can't expect everyone else to be supportive.

Anti-Semitism is a funny kind of hatred. No anti-Semite will ever admit it, but anti-Semitism is the only kind of racism that boils down to the belief that the "inferior race" is immensely superior to the rest of the races. They are immesurably richer, smarter and more powerful than all other nations who, are, in the perception of an anti-Semite, just stupid ignorant savages who are easily fooled, bribed and corrupted, like retarded children. They invented concsience, democracy. liberty and equal rights, they take over easily ny new society they come into, they control the press, they control governments, and it doesn't even matter if this government gets overthrown, because only Jews can change governments. In other words, anti-Semitism boils down to three main factors: paranoia, search for a g0at and, most importantly, the hater's inferiority syndrom.

I wouldn't say it's the only such kind.
Local feelings are remarkably similar against Indians in SOuth Africa, and against Chinese in Southeast Asia.
It's resentment and jealousy, I think.
Really? I don't think the Chinese were ever accused of inventing democracy or conscience.

In my opinion, the attention the jews get is disproportionately large to what they earn. People are silently thinking "get over it", or they'd start thinking these jews have a lot of power, which leads to paranoid reactions.
People also get sick of hearing about Israël all the time, and how meanwhile many Israëli elements act holier-than-thou.

Historically, another source of anti-semitism that no one has mentioned comes from times of sickness. For instance, during the middle ages when entire cities were pretty much wiped out by the plague, Jewish families were usually relatively unaffected. We know now that this had a lot to do with the cleanliness enforced by OT laws, but back then the suspicion was that somehow Jews were causing the plague.

The problem with anti-semtism is that it becomes a weapon top be used against anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any way.

For instance, on an AOL message board a few months ago I came across a message which said that the Israeli governments treatment of the Palestinian people was unfair. The next message accused the original poster of being "Anti-semitic".

The problem with anti-semtism is that it becomes a weapon top be used against anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any way.

For instance, on an AOL message board a few months ago I came across a message which said that the Israeli governments treatment of the Palestinian people was unfair. The next message accused the original poster of being "Anti-semitic".
It all depends on what is being said and how. I've seen plenty of examples of "criticism" of Israel that used classic anti-Semite stereotypes and Nazi imagery.

Anti-Semitism is a funny kind of hatred. No anti-Semite will ever admit it, but anti-Semitism is the only kind of racism that boils down to the belief that the "inferior race" is immensely superior to the rest of the races. They are immesurably richer, smarter and more powerful than all other nations who, are, in the perception of an anti-Semite, just stupid ignorant savages who are easily fooled, bribed and corrupted, like retarded children. They invented concsience, democracy. liberty and equal rights, they take over easily ny new society they come into, they control the press, they control governments, and it doesn't even matter if this government gets overthrown, because only Jews can change governments. In other words, anti-Semitism boils down to three main factors: paranoia, search for a g0at and, most importantly, the hater's inferiority syndrom.

I wouldn't say it's the only such kind.
Local feelings are remarkably similar against Indians in SOuth Africa, and against Chinese in Southeast Asia.
It's resentment and jealousy, I think.
Really? I don't think the Chinese were ever accused of inventing democracy or conscience.

I don't know about the Chinese situation, but the Indians in South AFrica came under suspicion for sympathy with Gandhi, who exhibited democratic and conscientious tendencies of which Johannesburg disapproved.

Anti-Semitism is a funny kind of hatred. No anti-Semite will ever admit it, but anti-Semitism is the only kind of racism that boils down to the belief that the "inferior race" is immensely superior to the rest of the races. They are immesurably richer, smarter and more powerful than all other nations who, are, in the perception of an anti-Semite, just stupid ignorant savages who are easily fooled, bribed and corrupted, like retarded children. They invented concsience, democracy. liberty and equal rights, they take over easily ny new society they come into, they control the press, they control governments, and it doesn't even matter if this government gets overthrown, because only Jews can change governments. In other words, anti-Semitism boils down to three main factors: paranoia, search for a g0at and, most importantly, the hater's inferiority syndrom.

I wouldn't say it's the only such kind.
Local feelings are remarkably similar against Indians in SOuth Africa, and against Chinese in Southeast Asia.
It's resentment and jealousy, I think.
Really? I don't think the Chinese were ever accused of inventing democracy or conscience.

I don't know about the Chinese situation, but the Indians in South AFrica came under suspicion for sympathy with Gandhi, who exhibited democratic and conscientious tendencies of which Johannesburg disapproved.

Anti-Semitism is a funny kind of hatred. No anti-Semite will ever admit it, but anti-Semitism is the only kind of racism that boils down to the belief that the "inferior race" is immensely superior to the rest of the races. They are immesurably richer, smarter and more powerful than all other nations who, are, in the perception of an anti-Semite, just stupid ignorant savages who are easily fooled, bribed and corrupted, like retarded children. They invented concsience, democracy. liberty and equal rights, they take over easily ny new society they come into, they control the press, they control governments, and it doesn't even matter if this government gets overthrown, because only Jews can change governments. In other words, anti-Semitism boils down to three main factors: paranoia, search for a g0at and, most importantly, the hater's inferiority syndrom.

I wouldn't say it's the only such kind.
Local feelings are remarkably similar against Indians in SOuth Africa, and against Chinese in Southeast Asia.
It's resentment and jealousy, I think.
Really? I don't think the Chinese were ever accused of inventing democracy or conscience.

I don't know about the Chinese situation, but the Indians in South AFrica came under suspicion for sympathy with Gandhi, who exhibited democratic and conscientious tendencies of which Johannesburg disapproved.

first of all, who are you to call yourself "ss division viking"? i sereausly doubt it is worth to react on you opinion, but as an optimist i will do it anyway. maybe you can be healed.

the jews within any nation except isreal are not truely part of that common heritage, they are a different and distinct heritage which follows its own interests at the expense of the nation and the people. the are parasites who use all the opportunities offered them in a nation, but return none of the loyalty and brotherhood expected of a citizen.

i am, as a matter of fact, german, born and raised here. i call jews, muslims and christian my friends and as a nother matter of fact, most of them are german. born and raised here, they have a german id and the cheer for the german soccer team in soccer.
they feel home here, and that is the major point, they are home here. i don´t know what kind of jews you know, but the one i know are preety "good" germans. i never noticed that they have a differnt heritage, we have jews in germany since ages.
and just to let you know how german some of the jews were, who ended up in auschwitz, sachsenhausen, bergen-belsen and so on, some of those people were still wearing there medales they earned in the first world war, when they got picked up to be brought to the different camps. they diden´t feel differnt, they couldn´t understand why they got deported, they felt german and THEY WERE GERMAN, they just had a nother religion than most other germans. a religion wich was used as an excuse.

first of all, who are you to call yourself "ss division viking"? i sereausly doubt it is worth to react on you opinion, but as an optimist i will do it anyway. maybe you can be healed.

the jews within any nation except isreal are not truely part of that common heritage, they are a different and distinct heritage which follows its own interests at the expense of the nation and the people. the are parasites who use all the opportunities offered them in a nation, but return none of the loyalty and brotherhood expected of a citizen.

i am, as a matter of fact, german, born and raised here. i call jews, muslims and christian my friends and as a nother matter of fact, most of them are german. born and raised here, they have a german id and the cheer for the german soccer team in soccer.
they feel home here, and that is the major point, they are home here. i don´t know what kind of jews you know, but the one i know are preety "good" germans. i never noticed that they have a differnt heritage, we have jews in germany since ages.
and just to let you know how german some of the jews were, who ended up in auschwitz, sachsenhausen, bergen-belsen and so on, some of those people were still wearing there medales they earned in the first world war, when they got picked up to be brought to the different camps. they diden´t feel differnt, they couldn´t understand why they got deported, they felt german and THEY WERE GERMAN, they just had a nother religion than most other germans. a religion wich was used as an excuse.

whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate.

Then tell me, how do they discriminate? More facts people.

Well, they call themselves "the chosen people of God"...

Very much like Hitler called the aryans the genetic superior people...

Not to say that the fact that those Jews who discriminate by promoting the racist idea of being the chosen of God in any way would justify discrimination directed against them, it obviously does not, yet they are clearly as discriminating as the anti-semit.

Actually, I think the original quote (by Psychopathic Warmonger), was meant to say that being "against" anti-semites would be discriminating against people who discriminate, not saying that Jews, in fact discriminate.

That aside, the concept of choseness is not in itself inherently discriminatory or chauvanistic. It has, and continues to be used, by SOME people to justify discrimination and chauvanism.

However, as this site points out: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/chosen_people.html

according to Jewish sources, that is the meaning of chosenness: to make God known to the world.

Now, that could be seen as self-congratulatory or self-aggrandizing (and perhaps somewhat historically inaccurate, given Zoarastrianism), but it's not inherently discriminatory.

Furthermore:

Does Judaism believe that chosenness endows Jews with special rights in the way racist ideologies endow those born into the "right race"? Not at all. The most famous verse in the Bible on the subject of chosenness says the precise opposite: "You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). Chosenness is so unconnected to any notion of race that Jews believe that the Messiah himself will descend from Ruth, a non*Jewish woman who converted to Judaism.

Lastly:

The Chosen People idea is so powerful that other groups have appropriated it. Both Catholicism and Protestantism believe that God chose the Jews, but that two thousand years ago a new covenant was made with Christianity. During most of Christian history, and among Evangelical Christians to the present day, Christian chosenness meant that only Christians go to heaven while the non*chosen are either placed in limbo or are damned.

Mohammed, likewise, didn't deny Abraham's chosenness. He simply claimed that Abraham was a Muslim, and he traced Islam's descent through the Jewish Patriarch.

Nations, as well as religions, see themselves as special. When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word for China means "center of the universe." Nineteenth*century and early twentieth*century Americans had a belief in their "manifest destiny" to rule the North American continent.

So, yeah. Chosen-ness does not necessarily equal chauvanism, racism or discrimination, and even if it did, it's not like Judaism is the only belief system to have the concept of "we are unique" be part of its ideology.

Now you've brought up the difference between Judaism as a religion and Jewish ethnicity. Which is a tangled subject but I would point out that not every person of Jewish descent believes that they are the chosen people of God.

I agree. And I already pointed this out in my previous by formulating myselfs as follows: "those Jews who discriminate by promoting the racist idea of being the chosen of God"

As I said, the Chosen-ness concept is not necessarily or inherently racist.

Taking into consideration that those Jews who believe that the Jewish people are Gods' chosen people and that only they will enjoy the afterlife in the presence of God, the rest going to hell

Could you provide a source for that statement, please?

and it must be clear I was an still am referring to the extreme right wing, I'd say that comes down to them saying "we are spiritually superior in the eyes of God and all the non-jews will enjoy eternal damnation". The later seems to be a faith far worse than just death.

Actually, the far-right religious nationalists (and the ultra-orthodox generally don't fall neatly into the left-right spectrum, BTW) generally have a slightly more complex belief system than you give them credit. Again, I'd like to see your sources for these alleged quotes.

in fact, my great-grandmother and her son/my grandfather fled Nazi Germany after they got my great-grandfather (my father's side, though, so I'm not Jewish, and neither's he - Jewish racial decent is matrilinnear, and my grandfather married a non-jew i.e. shiksa).

Depends who you ask. The Reform and Reconstructionist movements accept descent from either side. :wink:

whats wrong with being Anti-Semitic? Thats discrimination against people who discriminate. :evil:

I now hate you.

Let's not also forget that Jews generally simply want to be left alone, don't want trouble from anyone, are not violent, and BEGRUDGE the idea sometimes of being God's chosen people.

They see it as a burden - God's chosen must also endure the greatest tribulation.

To those of you calling them parasites and whatnot, I think you are simply jealous that you do not have your own culture to step back on, and therefore you hate those who have an established, 4,000 year old culture.

well, firstly i just have to say that i'm not at all anti-semitic, however i do know that the reason Hitler was is that he was convinced that Jews were taking over because a lot of businesses were owned by Jews and so a lot of them were rich, although there may have been other reasons as well.

Another of his so-called "justifications" for the Final Solution, included the fact that most of the Russian Bolshiviks had been Jewish. Also amusing was the fact that Hitler himself was not of the "Aryan" race, especially with his dark hair and eyes. His grandmother was also Jewish (or at least I've read this)...

As for why people are Anti-semitic...likely the same reason that many people are racist/sexist/bigotted; it was taught...

Let's not also forget that Jews generally simply want to be left alone, don't want trouble from anyone, are not violent, and BEGRUDGE the idea sometimes of being God's chosen people.

They see it as a burden - God's chosen must also endure the greatest tribulation.

To those of you calling them parasites and whatnot, I think you are simply jealous that you do not have your own culture to step back on, and therefore you hate those who have an established, 4,000 year old culture.

well said. I completely agree with everything you just said.

Anti-Semetism is one of, if not the worlds biggest prejudice. More so than Anti-Americanism (Sorry, Anti-Bushism :roll: ), anti-Islam, anti-anything, and all of the above should be wiped out.

Anti-Semetism is one of, if not the worlds biggest prejudice. More so than Anti-Americanism (Sorry, Anti-Bushism :roll: ), anti-Islam, anti-anything, and all of the above should be wiped out.

I disagree. People have the right to be "anti"-whatever the hell they want. It's when people's opinions and speech cross the line into ACTION, particularly violent action, that there's a problem. But if someone wants to say they hate Jews, or hate Muslims, or hate whomever, I don't think they should be prohibited from speaking.

... It should also be noted that it's practically impossible to "wipe out" an idea.

Anti-Semetism is one of, if not the worlds biggest prejudice. More so than Anti-Americanism (Sorry, Anti-Bushism :roll: ), anti-Islam, anti-anything, and all of the above should be wiped out.

Definately not how it should be. Anti-Bushism should be on the top of the list. You can tell i'm a democrat. :lol:

I don't mind anti-bushism, however just "Being against the US government" is, if not the majority, a solid chunk of the time, just an excuse to blast the US.

I don't mind anti-bushism, however just "Being against the US government" is, if not the majority, a solid chunk of the time, just an excuse to blast the US.

But don't people have the right to "blast" the U.S. if they so choose, as long as that "blasting" is confined to speech?

They do have the right to do that, and I'm not going to deny that right.

I do think, however, that any sort of bias/prejudice/discrimination/hate is not good.

They do have the right to do that, and I'm not going to deny that right.

I do think, however, that any sort of bias/prejudice/discrimination/hate is not good.

That may be the case, but that doesn't mean they "should be wiped out".

Sure it does. What good comes out of a bunch of uneducated prejudice?

BTW : I'm not talking about the people, but the ideas. Of course its hard to do. And by all probablity, will never happen. That dosen't mean we can't try to minimize it as much as possible.

Let us face fact, a great deal of the anti americanism in the world is based on the fact that american foriegn policy is designed to serve the interests of the jews. the us didn't invade iraq because it felt they might pose a threat to the us, the only ones they might genuinely threaten were their neighbors, most specifically isreal.

Let us face fact, a great deal of the anti americanism in the world is based on the fact that american foriegn policy is designed to serve the interests of the jews. the us didn't invade iraq because it felt they might pose a threat to the us, the only ones they might genuinely threaten were their neighbors, most specifically isreal.

Yet another racist scum and their conspiracy theories :roll:


Well some of the nicest people I know are jews, so,

No I'm not anti-semetic.


However I do not like (nor does anybody) those few idiotic fundies who are obsessed with inbreeding to keep their religion alive, and keep b*tching about anti-semetic events. They are quite ignorant, like one kid in my history class, who will sometimes out of nowhere use the "he hates me b/c im not chrisitan" line to defend angainst some argument w/no relevance to that. And he also said (in response to a question about if white ppl were ever enslaved) that the ancient israelites were made slaves of the egyptians. even i know that they werent white!!!


sorry but i even tho I do not dislike jews i just had to get that rant out

Yet another racist scum and their conspiracy theories :roll:


Well some of the nicest people I know are jews, so,

No I'm not anti-semetic.


However I do not like (nor does anybody) those few idiotic fundies who are obsessed with inbreeding to keep their religion alive, and keep b*tching about anti-semetic events. They are quite ignorant, like one kid in my history class, who will sometimes out of nowhere use the "he hates me b/c im not chrisitan" line to defend angainst some argument w/no relevance to that. And he also said (in response to a question about if white ppl were ever enslaved) that the ancient israelites were made slaves of the egyptians. even i know that they werent white!!!


sorry but i even tho I do not dislike jews i just had to get that rant out

first off i make no statement about whether or not many jews are personally likeable, i'm sure they are.

second i make no statement about my religious preference aside from my dislike of the way american foriegn policy is tied to isreal. actually as a nationalist i have no problem with the concept of a jewish state provided it stood on its own and didn't require massive subsidization from the us.

third, a better example of white enslavement would have been roman enslavement of large numbers of celtic and germanic people. the ethnic make up of the ancient jews is much debated, i would suspect they were related to modern arabs or non arab ethnic remnants still ptresent in the middle east, but its nothing i care greatly about.

no, I have a lot of Jewish friends...

no, I have a lot of Jewish friends...

I do wish I could meet more cool black people though, a lot I have met are really ignorant...

I'm anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic

I have nothing against the Jewish religion. I do not like the fact that even though Israel was founded on a British sponsored UN mandate, the US is the only country to defend Israel. I feel the Jews in Hollywood and that control the US media try to swing public support toward Israel in the mid-east conflict, even though it is equally Israel's and the Arabs fault.

Jews do make good bagels though.

QahJoh,

Thank you for your ellaborate reply. :)

I learned a few things. :)

I did totally misinterpret Psychpathic Warmonger's initial statement totally :( Which got me rather sidetracked.

My source was : http://experts.about.com/q/951/3144175.htm

Where it was a rabbi Dov who says: "Judaism, except perhaps for the most fanatically right-wing would ever suggest that only Jews go to Heaven - for several reasons."

Its obvious that the "ever" is a typo and meant as "never".

no, I have a lot of Jewish friends...

I do wish I could meet more cool black people though, a lot I have met are really ignorant...

Same here

I'm anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic


well its a start. if you realize that the organized expression of the jewish people is problematic, perhaps you will eventually realize the extent of their influence and the cost of their manipulations even beyond the state of isreal. sure some individual jews are decent people, its their overall actions of the jews on the world stage which are evil.

no, I have a lot of Jewish friends...

I do wish I could meet more cool black people though, a lot I have met are really ignorant...


do you really mean you wish you could meet more blacks who act like white people, instead like average members of the culture. sure african who mimic whites are far more tolerable. they try their best to immitate our culture, and as such should be respected as advanced representives of their people.

I'm anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic


well its a start. if you realize that the organized expression of the jewish people is problematic, perhaps you will eventually realize the extent of their influence and the cost of their manipulations even beyond the state of isreal. sure some individual jews are decent people, its their overall actions of the jews on the world stage which are evil.
:roll:

What a shining example of sheer idiocy. "The organized expression of the Jewish people is problematic"? Wake up and look around. You are saying that the "organized expression of the white people", as represented by genocidal conquerors throughout history, was not tenfold more "problematic"? That your claim to preserve white domination is any more legitimate than the imaginary Jewish claim to preserve theirs? Look into the mirror. You are accusing Jews of the faults that you are yourself admittedly guilty of. A classic case, sort of like a homophobe who wants everyone to be only straight accuses gays of having a hidden agenda to convert all straights.

Damn, you are not even fun to argue with. Its like beating up a helpless kid.

Nobody has the right to insult or dicriminate against anybody elses religion

I'm anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic


well its a start. if you realize that the organized expression of the jewish people is problematic, perhaps you will eventually realize the extent of their influence and the cost of their manipulations even beyond the state of isreal. sure some individual jews are decent people, its their overall actions of the jews on the world stage which are evil.
:roll:

What a shining example of sheer idiocy. "The organized expression of the Jewish people is problematic"? Wake up and look around. You are saying that the "organized expression of the white people", as represented by genocidal conquerors throughout history, was not tenfold more "problematic"? That your claim to preserve white domination is any more legitimate than the imaginary Jewish claim to preserve theirs? Look into the mirror. You are accusing Jews of the faults that you are yourself admittedly guilty of. A classic case, sort of like a homophobe who wants everyone to be only straight accuses gays of having a hidden agenda to convert all straights.

Damn, you are not even fun to argue with. Its like beating up a helpless kid.


well then you attack after i leave it may seem like you have won because your foolishness goes for hours unanswered, but declaring yourself the winner of an argument is much easier than actually proving your point.


as to white domination vs. jewish domination which is better is perhaps more a matter of prospective. i'm sure for the jews it is better that they dominate, just as for me a white man it is better that europeans rule. in the end it is not a moral issue but the law of nature, each group has the will to power. the white man exercises his through the creation of industry, the spreading of civilization and when necessary the conquest by arms. the jew execises his by stealth and manipulation, by hijacking what the white man has created.


in nature their is no moral distinction between the predator and the parasite, each has an equal will to survivwe, each has a different method of doing so. it is however in the interest of the parasites victum to be aware of its infestation and take actions to avoid its spread and if possible eliminate the creatures from its host. just as it is in the interests of the prey to develop stategies to avoid, flee or repel the predator.

could'nt bother reading the whole thing.......sorry

no, I have a lot of Jewish friends...

I do wish I could meet more cool black people though, a lot I have met are really ignorant...


do you really mean you wish you could meet more blacks who act like white people, instead like average members of the culture. sure african who mimic whites are far more tolerable. they try their best to immitate our culture, and as such should be respected as advanced representives of their people.

i disagree. i don't especially need black people to act like white people, since that doesn't really mean anything...white people don't just act one way, in case you haven't noticed.

what bothers me is that the black kids i have met at school are racist; they can't be friends with me because i'm not black. they think they are more ghetto than me because they are black, even though most of them grew up in nice suburbs while i spent years living in an inner city slum. they can't get past their racist views of me, and meanwhile they live up to every negative stereotype by glorifying ignorance and gang behavior. they act proud to be stupid, and brag about cheating in classes. they dress in gang-styled clothing and are rude and hostile to everyone they meet. that sort of behavior is not appealing to me, so i don't make friends with them any more than i would make friends with one of the wigger kids who acts the same way.

but those black students would be just as bad if they acted like the white trailer-trash kids we also have around here. those white kids pretty much do the same basic stuff, by acting proud that they don't know things and thinking it's an accomplishment to have no manners and be rude to everyone. there are plenty of white people who have messed up values and are unpleasent, and many minority groups who are fascinating and charming.

and many minority groups who are fascinating and charming. bonobos are fascinating and charming as well, and its always funny to see them dressed up in people clothes

and many minority groups who are fascinating and charming. bonobos are fascinating and charming as well, and its always funny to see them dressed up in people clothes

i don't really like seeing animals dressed as people, but i agree that bonobos are fascinating and charming. what's your point?

and many minority groups who are fascinating and charming. bonobos are fascinating and charming as well, and its always funny to see them dressed up in people clothes

i don't really like seeing animals dressed as people, but i agree that bonobos are fascinating and charming. what's your point?

the fact that something is fasinating and charming doesn't mean it isn't fundimentally distinct. minorities can be interesting culturally, and sociologically but that doesn't mean they are the same on a fundimental as european culture or that those two cultures should mix.

and many minority groups who are fascinating and charming. bonobos are fascinating and charming as well, and its always funny to see them dressed up in people clothes

i don't really like seeing animals dressed as people, but i agree that bonobos are fascinating and charming. what's your point?

the fact that something is fasinating and charming doesn't mean it isn't fundimentally distinct. minorities can be interesting culturally, and sociologically but that doesn't mean they are the same on a fundimental as european culture or that those two cultures should mix.

no, the fact that minority cultures are charming isn't what makes them equal to western culture...the fact that all cultures are equally valid makes them equal. i guess from your name that you don't like people who aren't like you, and you can feel that way if you want, but whether or not you like something isn't the determining factor in its objective worth.

no, the fact that minority cultures are charming isn't what makes them equal to western culture...the fact that all cultures are equally valid makes them equal. i guess from your name that you don't like people who aren't like you, and you can feel that way if you want, but whether or not you like something isn't the determining factor in its objective worth.


equally valid from a feild study prospective doesn't make them equally valid from an ethical, moral, or personal level. scientifically humans are no more important than ants(possibly less so because of the species diversity and complex ecological role ants play). but that doesn't mean you have to value an ant equally to a human, or a member of another ethnic group equally to your own, or a stranger equally to kith and kin.

no, the fact that minority cultures are charming isn't what makes them equal to western culture...the fact that all cultures are equally valid makes them equal. i guess from your name that you don't like people who aren't like you, and you can feel that way if you want, but whether or not you like something isn't the determining factor in its objective worth.


equally valid from a feild study prospective doesn't make them equally valid from an ethical, moral, or personal level. scientifically humans are no more important than ants(possibly less so because of the species diversity and complex ecological role ants play). but that doesn't mean you have to value an ant equally to a human, or a member of another ethnic group equally to your own, or a stranger equally to kith and kin.

your personal values are not the absolute values. you don't have to value anything, but that doesn't determine its objective worth. an ant is just as valuable in its niche as humans are in ours, and every ethnic group is just as objectively important as any other. you personally don't have to think so, but that won't change reality.

Just out of curiosity, you don't mean 'anti-semitic' in the sense that Ariel Sharon's spin doctors mean it, do you? If not agreeing mindlessly with every policy and atrocity to come out of the Likud is anti-semitic, as they seem to want to suggest, then most of the civilised world would be anti-semitic.
That, however, is like saying that anyone who thinks Pol Pot was not a nice person is prejudiced against Cambodians.

your personal values are not the absolute values. you don't have to value anything, but that doesn't determine its objective worth. an ant is just as valuable in its niche as humans are in ours, and every ethnic group is just as objectively important as any other. you personally don't have to think so, but that won't change reality.

i'm not intersting in changing objective reality in that sense, i'm interested in changing peoples subjective world views and thus their action. this affects reality as a secondary consequence.

your personal values are not the absolute values. you don't have to value anything, but that doesn't determine its objective worth. an ant is just as valuable in its niche as humans are in ours, and every ethnic group is just as objectively important as any other. you personally don't have to think so, but that won't change reality.

i'm not intersting in changing objective reality in that sense, i'm interested in changing peoples subjective world views and thus their action. this affects reality as a secondary consequence.

that's lovely...so what was your point? you think that the culture you happened to be born into through accident of birth is the best, and you want to make everyone agree with you? good luck with that...most people have more sense.

The whole question of anti-Semitism is not jsut like other racism, because it has three parts
1) racism
2) religious prejudice
3) anti-Israel feeling

I think many of the problems arise when the three are muddled up. People critcizing Israel's record in Palestine are routinely called 'anti-Semites', particularly by Jewish commentators. As some of these commentators make a lot of noise (such as Melanie Philips, for Brits who are reading), and they stress their Jewishness, the impression is given (wrongly) that almost all Jews support Israel. This obviously causes a lot of anger. Basically, people are accused of anti-Semitism for political reasons, and this occasionally leads to actual anti-Semitism.

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

their BELIEFS were certainly equal to anyone else's. your beliefs are your own, and while i think they are maladaptive i don't think you are wrong for believing differently than i do. the only reason i see certain beliefs or cultures as "wrong" is when they proceed under false assumptions or deliberate misconceptions; Nazi Germany did that a great deal, and thus i feel it was not an effective or especially worthwhile culture. they also made the choice to kill people who wouldn't agree with them, and when you do that i think all bets are off...peopel don't have to respect your attempts to kill them, so if you go that route then you lose your shot at equal status.

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

their BELIEFS were certainly equal to anyone else's. your beliefs are your own, and while i think they are maladaptive i don't think you are wrong for believing differently than i do. the only reason i see certain beliefs or cultures as "wrong" is when they proceed under false assumptions or deliberate misconceptions; Nazi Germany did that a great deal, and thus i feel it was not an effective or especially worthwhile culture. they also made the choice to kill people who wouldn't agree with them, and when you do that i think all bets are off...peopel don't have to respect your attempts to kill them, so if you go that route then you lose your shot at equal status.

i think you will find that most cultures, at least most populous and powerful ones at least occasionally kill people who disagree with them, they may justify it as self defense but in the end war is always an attempt on both sides to impose their will on people who disagree by force(or an attempt to wipe out those who hold a fundimentially opposed view point)

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

their BELIEFS were certainly equal to anyone else's. your beliefs are your own, and while i think they are maladaptive i don't think you are wrong for believing differently than i do. the only reason i see certain beliefs or cultures as "wrong" is when they proceed under false assumptions or deliberate misconceptions; Nazi Germany did that a great deal, and thus i feel it was not an effective or especially worthwhile culture. they also made the choice to kill people who wouldn't agree with them, and when you do that i think all bets are off...peopel don't have to respect your attempts to kill them, so if you go that route then you lose your shot at equal status.

i think you will find that most cultures, at least most populous and powerful ones at least occasionally kill people who disagree with them, they may justify it as self defense but in the end war is always an attempt on both sides to impose their will on people who disagree by force(or an attempt to wipe out those who hold a fundimentially opposed view point)

yes, most cultures will do that at some point. and when they do they lose ground. an otherwise valid culture can have parts that are not respectable or right, if they chose to force their views or claim theirs is the only way to live. the culture itself isn't the problem, just that warped view that they are RIGHT and everyone else must submit. that view can exist anywhere, ignorance isn't ethnically linked.

You reap what you sow. From the rightful Maccabean priesthood, the Rechabites, Zealots, and Siccari... Joseph, his sons Jesus, James, Judas Thomas, cousin John the Baptist, the Temple was being polluted by the admittance of Gentile offerings. The hard-line of these Jews were as prejudiced about other races as any KKK group today.

well then you attack after i leave it may seem like you have won because your foolishness goes for hours unanswered, but declaring yourself the winner of an argument is much easier than actually proving your point.
I have nothing to prove to you. If I bother replying to your posts, it is only because the more silly and naieve part of NationStates players might actully fall for your crap, assuming that if no one replied, you were probably saying something everyone agrees with.


as to white domination vs. jewish domination which is better is perhaps more a matter of prospective. i'm sure for the jews it is better that they dominate, just as for me a white man it is better that europeans rule. in the end it is not a moral issue but the law of nature, each group has the will to power. the white man exercises his through the creation of industry, the spreading of civilization and when necessary the conquest by arms. the jew execises his by stealth and manipulation, by hijacking what the white man has created.
Crap on top of crap on top of crap. The only ones seeking domination are the likes of you, who themselves usually produce nothing except the aforementioned crap. I don't see white supremacists doing anything useful production wise. Their hatred seems to be their primary occupation.

Jewish people were never after dominating anyone, their only concern was living without being persecuted by those seeking domination at the expense of the Jews and other minorities- like the Church during the Middle Ages. These domination lovers put the Jews into conditions in which they were restricted in their choice of occupation and only allowed to do jobs that the "dominant ones" despised. And yes, the Jews had excelled in these activities- in trade, banking, medicine and science. Are you telling me its a bad thing?
The myth of Jews as greedy people is exclusively Christian, because it was Christianity that held trade and banking in contempt. In the Muslim and Pagan lands, it was not the case at all, which is why the Jews were not seen as linked to money and "non-productive" activities.
Besides, it is these "non-productive" activities that, in the end, ensured the rise of the West above all other civilizations in economy and technology. If you believe that banking and media are dominated by the Jews, you have to assume that the white man's share in his own "superiority" is miserable, and this "white superiority" is built by Jewish brains- because it is banking that keeps the Western economy booming, and it is the press that spreads the "white" culture. So what does the "white" man contribute to his own power? Ramblings about how superior he is by the virtue of his skin color?
In fact, your every argument only serves to humiliate those whose cause you claim to be championing.

There was an interesting US News and World Report, I believe from mid-November. It had an article saying that the anti-semites in Europe have masked their cause in anti-zionism in order to get people to listen. It also said that the source of the new Anti-Semitism is from Muslims. I would post a link, but you have to pay them money. If you want to see this article, ask your librarian to get out US News from Nov. 2003. It was the cover story of that publication.

yes, most cultures will do that at some point. and when they do they lose ground. an otherwise valid culture can have parts that are not respectable or right, if they chose to force their views or claim theirs is the only way to live. the culture itself isn't the problem, just that warped view that they are RIGHT and everyone else must submit. that view can exist anywhere, ignorance isn't ethnically linked.

you are backing further and further away from your scientific objectivity, and imposing more and more value judgements on these supposedly equal cultures. hmmmm, i might just be winning an argument for a change. maybe not, to soon to tell. :wink:

almost all cultures believe they are right and impose themselves on other to the extent of their powers. only european culture have become so self aware that it subjects itself to endless self criticism when it does what all cultures do naturally. don't get me wrong our power of deep introspection and the ability to self criticism are strengths provided they don't paralize necessary action.

blah blah blah

meh, bottle's interesting to debate, your just ranting, maybe i'll respond if bottle gets tired and leaves the thread.

yes, most cultures will do that at some point. and when they do they lose ground. an otherwise valid culture can have parts that are not respectable or right, if they chose to force their views or claim theirs is the only way to live. the culture itself isn't the problem, just that warped view that they are RIGHT and everyone else must submit. that view can exist anywhere, ignorance isn't ethnically linked.

you are backing further and further away from your scientific objectivity, and imposing more and more value judgements on these supposedly equal cultures. hmmmm, i might just be winning an argument for a change. maybe not, to soon to tell. :wink:

almost all cultures believe they are right and impose themselves on other to the extent of their powers. only european culture have become so self aware that it subjects itself to endless self criticism when it does what all cultures do naturally. don't get me wrong our power of deep introspection and the ability to self criticism are strengths provided they don't paralize necessary action.

erm, no i'm not backing away. i'm saying that all cultures are equally valuable, but that no other culture is obligated to put up with being murdered. since all cultures are equally valid, any group that cannot see that fact is proceeding under false assumptions and is therefore maladaptive because it is not opperating in reality. you are perfectly within your rights to believe that way, but you won't succeed as well in the world. people who allow themselves to be blinded by generalizations are not as able to succeed, so from a scientific perspective that is a "bad" choice to make.

also, European cultures are absolutely NOT the only cultures to subject themselves to criticism or to be aware of the larger picture. in fact, European cultures are among the last cultures to arrive at that point in development; Asian and South American civilizations had reached that point before the Western world as we know it even existed.

blah blah blah

meh, bottle's interesting to debate, your just ranting, maybe i'll respond if bottle gets tired and leaves the thread.
Whatever. Your opinion is about the last thing I care about :roll:

There was an interesting US News and World Report, I believe from mid-November. It had an article saying that the anti-semites in Europe have masked their cause in anti-zionism in order to get people to listen. It also said that the source of the new Anti-Semitism is from Muslims. I would post a link, but you have to pay them money. If you want to see this article, ask your librarian to get out US News from Nov. 2003. It was the cover story of that publication.

I think everyone should read this before posting.

People always mask their hate with something more acceptable. Hate for Jews is just against "Zionists and their unrepresentative influence", hate against Blacks against "only their ghetto culture", hate for Americans "only against Bush", ect. ect.

Thats not to say that everyone who says that is lying. A lot are, though.

Ishmael was Abraham's son, who descended from Shem.
Arabs are Semites.

erm, no i'm not backing away. i'm saying that all cultures are equally valuable, but that no other culture is obligated to put up with being murdered. since all cultures are equally valid, any group that cannot see that fact is proceeding under false assumptions and is therefore maladaptive because it is not opperating in reality. you are perfectly within your rights to believe that way, but you won't succeed as well in the world. people who allow themselves to be blinded by generalizations are not as able to succeed, so from a scientific perspective that is a "bad" choice to make.

also, European cultures are absolutely NOT the only cultures to subject themselves to criticism or to be aware of the larger picture. in fact, European cultures are among the last cultures to arrive at that point in development; Asian and South American civilizations had reached that point before the Western world as we know it even existed.

i'm not disagreeing with your argument about scientific anthropological equality. i just think that that prospective is not of much value in determining the desireable course of action for a culture. i believe my culture is superior and am willing to work to preserve and defend it. i expect members of other cultures to feel the same.

maladaptive seems to be a bit of a code word for morally objectionable. you can argue that all indiginous cultures that were conquered by european powers were maladaptive in that they were unable to resist the expansion of a technological superior. afterall exiction is the ultimate proof of maladaption. it is certainly possible that the original national socialist were maladapted in that they were militarily defeated, and to not learn from their mistakes is a cultural dead end. i however wish to take what i believe were their correct assumptions and apply them to the modern context.

i can respect the acheivements of asian cultures and believe their study can be useful for a european nationalist, but understanding and respecting is not the same as assimilating it. the japanese can teach valuable lessons to nationalists about maintaining cultural integrity while engaging the rest of the world economically and politically. it has also made mistakes which can prove valuable to analize, but this doesn't mean i wish to include bushido in the european cultural framework.

i think precolonial south american cultures are sometimes over rated, basically bronze age monument builders with some success at empire but not necessarily that culturally advanced. but i'm sure that its scientific study can uncover some worthwhile insights.

There was an interesting US News and World Report, I believe from mid-November. It had an article saying that the anti-semites in Europe have masked their cause in anti-zionism in order to get people to listen. It also said that the source of the new Anti-Semitism is from Muslims. I would post a link, but you have to pay them money. If you want to see this article, ask your librarian to get out US News from Nov. 2003. It was the cover story of that publication.

also because in most of the EU blatant antisemetism is illegal. when the truth is illegal to speak one just resort to code words. and yes antizionism is a gateway to lead people to the truth about jews in general. the evil of the zionist state is plain for all to see, once people come to understand that they can be shown the more subtle evil of the jews outside of the isreali state.

ironically many nationalists would have no problem with isreal if all the jews lived there, they would simply be another people living in their national homeland fighting with their neighbors, and fundimentally of no concern to the european one way for the other provided the nuclear fall out didn't pollute the mediterranean.

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

What separates Nazi and related cultures is that they impose the "culture" upon all the citizens, regulating their daily lives down to an inch . . .

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

What separates Nazi and related cultures is that they impose the "culture" upon all the citizens, regulating their daily lives down to an inch . . .

nationalist culture strongly encourage citizens to take part in the cultural life of the nation and people. it does not permit public displays of deviance and social degradation, but it hardly regulates every inch of daily lives. you seem to be confusing us with the communists.

The whole question of anti-Semitism is not jsut like other racism, because it has three parts
1) racism
2) religious prejudice
3) anti-Israel feeling

I think many of the problems arise when the three are muddled up. People critcizing Israel's record in Palestine are routinely called 'anti-Semites', particularly by Jewish commentators. As some of these commentators make a lot of noise (such as Melanie Philips, for Brits who are reading), and they stress their Jewishness, the impression is given (wrongly) that almost all Jews support Israel. This obviously causes a lot of anger. Basically, people are accused of anti-Semitism for political reasons, and this occasionally leads to actual anti-Semitism.

That is a fair point, however, there is also a palpable amount of anti-Semitism WITHIN the anti-Zionist/ critical of Israel movement. Just because the two are not the same does not mean that there is no overlap. It is just as wrong for someone to say that all those critical of Israel are anti-Semites as it is for someone to say that NONE of those critical of Israel are anti-Semites.

okay lets take a different tact. if all cultures are objectively equal then you must agree that the political and social culture of nazi germany was objectively equal to all others as well. you can no more objectively say that they were wrong than you can argue that african substitance farmers are inferior to european modern civilization, is that really what you think?
do you really believe that my cultural beliefs as a subculture in modern european civilization are equal to your own more mainstream beliefs?

their BELIEFS were certainly equal to anyone else's. your beliefs are your own, and while i think they are maladaptive i don't think you are wrong for believing differently than i do. the only reason i see certain beliefs or cultures as "wrong" is when they proceed under false assumptions or deliberate misconceptions; Nazi Germany did that a great deal, and thus i feel it was not an effective or especially worthwhile culture. they also made the choice to kill people who wouldn't agree with them, and when you do that i think all bets are off...peopel don't have to respect your attempts to kill them, so if you go that route then you lose your shot at equal status.

i think you will find that most cultures, at least most populous and powerful ones at least occasionally kill people who disagree with them, they may justify it as self defense but in the end war is always an attempt on both sides to impose their will on people who disagree by force(or an attempt to wipe out those who hold a fundimentially opposed view point)

Isn't it a bit disengenuous to compare the Holocaust with cultures that "occaisonally kill people who disagree with them"?

You reap what you sow. From the rightful Maccabean priesthood, the Rechabites, Zealots, and Siccari... Joseph, his sons Jesus, James, Judas Thomas, cousin John the Baptist, the Temple was being polluted by the admittance of Gentile offerings. The hard-line of these Jews were as prejudiced about other races as any KKK group today.

That's kind of a flawed analogy. Most of the groups you named were not specifically race-oriented; they were fighting for a Jewish autonomy against Greek and then Roman occupation. Nationalism does not necessarily translate to racism.

That said, it would certainly be accurate to call them religious fundementalists and cultural chauvanists.

if you realize that the organized expression of the jewish people is problematic

How so? Problematic to who? Is it any more problematic than, say, the organized expression of "Aryans" was in World War Two?

perhaps you will eventually realize the extent of their influence and the cost of their manipulations

Examples?

some individual jews are decent people, its their overall actions of the jews on the world stage which are evil

Such as?

i'm sure for the jews it is better that they dominate, just as for me a white man it is better that europeans rule

I've yet to be convinced that Jews "rule". Perhaps you'd care to provide some evidence of this. Obviously they control their own country and have a significant political presence in the United States and Europe, but I question if that's the same thing as "ruling".

each group has the will to power. the white man exercises his through the creation of industry, the spreading of civilization and when necessary the conquest by arms. the jew execises his by stealth and manipulation, by hijacking what the white man has created.

Prove it.

in nature their is no moral distinction between the predator and the parasite

On what basis do you term whites predators and jews parasites?

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

i'm not disagreeing with your argument about scientific anthropological equality. i just think that that prospective is not of much value in determining the desireable course of action for a culture. i believe my culture is superior and am willing to work to preserve and defend it. i expect members of other cultures to feel the same.

You say that you believe "your culture" is "superior". Can you define your terms? What is your definition of "your culture", and in what way is it "superior"? This, surely, is a necessary prerequisite for any qualitative judgement.

maladaptive seems to be a bit of a code word for morally objectionable. you can argue that all indiginous cultures that were conquered by european powers were maladaptive in that they were unable to resist the expansion of a technological superior. afterall exiction is the ultimate proof of maladaption. it is certainly possible that the original national socialist were maladapted in that they were militarily defeated, and to not learn from their mistakes is a cultural dead end. i however wish to take what i believe were their correct assumptions and apply them to the modern context.

Given that the only significant achievements of Nazi Germany were murder, terror, war, economic and social chaos on a massive scale, all followed by rapid and overwhelming political and military defeat, what examples can you cite as their "correct assumptions", and why?

Isn't it a bit disengenuous to compare the Holocaust with cultures that "occaisonally kill people who disagree with them"?

its just a matter of scale friend. we just didn't go in for baby steps and half measures.

Isn't it a bit disengenuous to compare the Holocaust with cultures that "occaisonally kill people who disagree with them"?

its just a matter of scale friend. we just didn't go in for baby steps and half measures.

Obviously it's a matter of scale. My point was that the difference in scale is massive. It's like comparing a paper cut to getting decapitated. Calling it "a matter of scale" is basically ducking the point.

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

well we've made alot more progress in the last 10,000 years than squirrels, or crocodiles. those beasties really haven't change one bit, we on the otherhand are somewhat behaviorally different than our recent ancestors.

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

well we've made alot more progress in the last 10,000 years than squirrels, or crocodiles. those beasties really haven't change one bit, we on the otherhand are somewhat behaviorally different than our recent ancestors.

I don't know; I seem to recall something about crocodiles having shrunk a bit in the past 10,000 years. That's a difference, isn't it?

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

well we've made alot more progress in the last 10,000 years than squirrels, or crocodiles. those beasties really haven't change one bit, we on the otherhand are somewhat behaviorally different than our recent ancestors.

I fail to see how. We are still a species that clubs each others heads in order to gain resources.

Isn't it a bit disengenuous to compare the Holocaust with cultures that "occaisonally kill people who disagree with them"?

its just a matter of scale friend. we just didn't go in for baby steps and half measures.

Obviously it's a matter of scale. My point was that the difference in scale is massive. It's like comparing a paper cut to getting decapitated. Calling it "a matter of scale" is basically ducking the point.

it would be if i agreed it was a bad habit, but i find a cultures tendency to kill its enemies a nuetral to moderately positive trait. decapitation is a more effective way of dealing with ones enemies than giving them paper cuts. also only very small and weak cultures just kill a few people when the need arises, most powerful cultures kill by the tens of thousands at least if not the millions. rememder ww2 killed between 35 and 60 million people all told. that makes the holocaust somewhere between 1/6th and 1/10th of the total how is that for scale.

Are you Anti-Semitic? And if you are...why?

And serious, well thought out answers only please, I don't want anything like "Jews are gay that's why". I am seriously curious why anti-semitism exists.

Heh. I'm a Jew AND I'm gay.

What now?

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

well we've made alot more progress in the last 10,000 years than squirrels, or crocodiles. those beasties really haven't change one bit, we on the otherhand are somewhat behaviorally different than our recent ancestors.

I fail to see how. We are still a species that clubs each others heads in order to gain resources.

True... human behaviours have altered in small ways in response to technology, and naturally we respond to changes in our environment -- but the same could be said about pigeons.

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

well we've made alot more progress in the last 10,000 years than squirrels, or crocodiles. those beasties really haven't change one bit, we on the otherhand are somewhat behaviorally different than our recent ancestors.

I don't know; I seem to recall something about crocodiles having shrunk a bit in the past 10,000 years. That's a difference, isn't it?

and squirrels have adapted to human created urban environments, but still my point is that while we may not have fundimentally changed in the last 10,000 years were are evolving much fasted than post animals do, and most other animals that have changed in this time period have done so as a response to human change.

Are you Anti-Semitic? And if you are...why?

And serious, well thought out answers only please, I don't want anything like "Jews are gay that's why". I am seriously curious why anti-semitism exists.

Heh. I'm a Jew AND I'm gay.

What now?


a non breeding jew, that fine by me. you get a gold star. now just don't go all invitro on my and spoil the happy moment.

Anti-semitism doesn't seem to have any real basis - especially for these KKK whackos who think it's neat to dress up in bedsheets and say "OMGWTF I HATE JEWS KK THX BYEZ".

They, and others, seem to hate Jews simply because it seems like the "right" thing to do. Could any anti-semitics tell me why you have this notion? What do you hate about them?

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

Isn't it a bit disengenuous to compare the Holocaust with cultures that "occaisonally kill people who disagree with them"?

its just a matter of scale friend. we just didn't go in for baby steps and half measures.

Obviously it's a matter of scale. My point was that the difference in scale is massive. It's like comparing a paper cut to getting decapitated. Calling it "a matter of scale" is basically ducking the point.

it would be if i agreed it was a bad habit, but i find a cultures tendency to kill its enemies a nuetral to moderately positive trait.

That still doesn't alleviate the scale issue. The fact remains that it is inaccurate to compare the systematic extermination of millions of people with cultures that "occaisonally kill people who disagree with them"- also, it should be noted that killing people who disagree with you is not the same thing as killing an enemy.

also only very small and weak cultures just kill a few people when the need arises, most powerful cultures kill by the tens of thousands at least if not the millions.

Again dodging the point.

rememder ww2 killed between 35 and 60 million people all told. that makes the holocaust somewhere between 1/6th and 1/10th of the total how is that for scale.

"How is that"? Unclear.

Exactly what things are you comparing in those last two sentences?

Anti-semite, Pro-semite or purely apathetic. We are all as a species; foolish and stupid.

We are doomed to repeat our mistakes time and time again.

Forgive my melancholic view of the world but through the study of history; I have seen miniscule improvement in the development of the Human Psyche.
All that has changed in the past 10000 years is that we have bigger and better guns.

well we've made alot more progress in the last 10,000 years than squirrels, or crocodiles. those beasties really haven't change one bit, we on the otherhand are somewhat behaviorally different than our recent ancestors.

I don't know; I seem to recall something about crocodiles having shrunk a bit in the past 10,000 years. That's a difference, isn't it?

and squirrels have adapted to human created urban environments, but still my point is that while we may not have fundimentally changed in the last 10,000 years were are evolving much fasted than post animals do, and most other animals that have changed in this time period have done so as a response to human change.

No, we're not. We are in all practical aspects biologically identical to human beings from the end of the last ice age. We might have picked up a few new disease resistances, and lost a few others, but that's about it -- big deal.

Are you Anti-Semitic? And if you are...why?

And serious, well thought out answers only please, I don't want anything like "Jews are gay that's why". I am seriously curious why anti-semitism exists.

Heh. I'm a Jew AND I'm gay.

What now?


a non breeding jew, that fine by me. you get a gold star. now just don't go all invitro on my and spoil the happy moment.
you disgust me SS. Please if you want to spread hate, then by all means go to the redneck KKK meeting. They want you there, and we don't want you here. Everyone's happy then.

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

Furthermore, the Christian roots of anti-Semitism go back farther than merely the Middle Ages- there has been tension and distrust between Christianity and Judaism since the early days of the Church.

Taking into consideration that those Jews who believe that the Jewish people are G[-]ds' chosen people and that only they will enjoy the afterlife in the presence of G[-]d, the rest going to hell, and it must be clear I was an still am referring to the extreme right wing, I'd say that comes down to them saying "we are spiritually superior in the eyes of G[-]d and all the non-jews will enjoy eternal damnation". The later seems to be a faith far worse than just death.

A few problems:

1.) "Hell" is not a Jewish doctrine
2.) Christianity teaches that non-Christians go to Hell, however "there is neither man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile, slave nor master, for we are all one in the body of Christ." For those Jews who do believe in a Hell for non-Jews, we can only assume that such ideas come from outside influence. Many religions teach that they are the "only correct one," so if one is to consider Jews as discriminatory (and therefore deserving of discrimination against them), they should probably also hate any number of additional members of other religions, videlicet, Christians. Or, you know, not hate anyone.

no, I have a lot of Jewish friends...

I do wish I could meet more cool black people though, a lot I have met are really ignorant...

yea, there are a lot of cool Black people but a lot of them on tv are ignorant and they give the rest of them a bad name.

Taking into consideration that those Jews who believe that the Jewish people are G[-]ds' chosen people and that only they will enjoy the afterlife in the presence of G[-]d, the rest going to hell, and it must be clear I was an still am referring to the extreme right wing, I'd say that comes down to them saying "we are spiritually superior in the eyes of G[-]d and all the non-jews will enjoy eternal damnation". The later seems to be a faith far worse than just death.

A few problems:

1.) "Hell" is not a Jewish doctrine
2.) Christianity teaches that non-Christians go to Hell, however "there is neither man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile, slave nor master, for we are all one in the body of Christ." For those Jews who do believe in a Hell for non-Jews, we can only assume that such ideas come from outside influence. Many religions teach that they are the "only correct one," so if one is to consider Jews as discriminatory (and therefore deserving of discrimination against them), they should probably also hate any number of additional members of other religions, videlicet, Christians. Or, you know, not hate anyone.

The Jewish views on the afterlife are notoriously vague, however there is definitely the concept of a Hell, although traditionally it's conceived as more of a temporary place, making it perhaps more accurate to call it a "purgatory".

In any event, the traditional Jewish view on non-Jews has been that GOOD non-Jews (i.e., non-Jews that obey the 7 Noahide laws- see here: http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/am/goyim.asp) are rewarded in the afterlife.

To paraphrase the great Maimonides: "All good people have a share in the world to come."

There are, of course, certain strains of Judaism that believe that some non-Jews (notably, Christians) will not be rewarded in the World to Come (sometimes the argument for this is related to alleged "idol worship"), but this is a small minority.

And, of course, there are a significant portion of Jews who do not believe in any afterlife at all, including Hell. Or those that don't believe in Hell, specifically.

Ishmael was Abraham's son, who descended from Shem.
Arabs are Semites.

Correct.

However, this not not necessarily make Arabs immune to the "Anti-Semitic" stigma, so to speak.

Taking into consideration that those Jews who believe that the Jewish people are G[-]ds' chosen people and that only they will enjoy the afterlife in the presence of G[-]d, the rest going to hell, and it must be clear I was an still am referring to the extreme right wing, I'd say that comes down to them saying "we are spiritually superior in the eyes of G[-]d and all the non-jews will enjoy eternal damnation". The later seems to be a faith far worse than just death.

A few problems:

1.) "Hell" is not a Jewish doctrine
2.) Christianity teaches that non-Christians go to Hell, however "there is neither man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile, slave nor master, for we are all one in the body of Christ." For those Jews who do believe in a Hell for non-Jews, we can only assume that such ideas come from outside influence. Many religions teach that they are the "only correct one," so if one is to consider Jews as discriminatory (and therefore deserving of discrimination against them), they should probably also hate any number of additional members of other religions, videlicet, Christians. Or, you know, not hate anyone.

The Jewish views on the afterlife are notoriously vague, however there is definitely the concept of a Hell, although traditionally it's conceived as more of a temporary place, making it perhaps more accurate to call it a "purgatory".


Well that's just the thing. The majority of Jews don't believe there is an eternal torment for people after death. There are indeed SOME Jews who agree with the Christian Hell doctrine, but for the most part, we stick to our own doctrines.

There are, of course, certain strains of Judaism that believe that some non-Jews (notably, Christians) will not be rewarded in the World to Come (sometimes the argument for this is related to alleged "idol worship"), but this is a small minority.

And, of course, there are a significant portion of Jews who do not believe in any afterlife at all, including Hell. Or those that don't believe in Hell, specifically.

Hence my statement.

Ishmael was Abraham's son, who descended from Shem.
Arabs are Semites.

Correct.

However, this not not necessarily make Arabs immune to the "Anti-Semitic" stigma, so to speak.

Not to mention that the term "anti-semite" was coined in the late 1800s to refer specifically to people who hated Jews- by Wilhelm Marr, head of the League of Anti-Semites.

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

I was merely identifying the initial source. Of course there are going to be more contemporary factors, but I am looking at a things from a domino perspective.

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

I was merely identifying the initial source. Of course there are going to be more contemporary factors, but I am looking at a things from a domino perspective.

But if the initial source is in the founding myths of Christianity, then it's inaccurate to say it started in the Middle Ages in Europe. In fact, it started with the founding of Christianity, in first-century Palestine.

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

I was merely identifying the initial source. Of course there are going to be more contemporary factors, but I am looking at a things from a domino perspective.

But if the initial source is in the founding myths of Christianity, then it's inaccurate to say it started in the Middle Ages in Europe. In fact, it started with the founding of Christianity, in first-century Palestine.

I wouldn't say so, for two main reasons:
1.) The early Christians were, for the most part, Jews, so it doesn't stand to reason that they would be Anti-Semitic, especially since they still considered themselves to be Jewish.
2.) The Middle Ages was the height of Christian power, and it was then, in my opinion, that Anti-Semitism was allowed to develop and make a meaningful ripple in history... In other words, the attitudes expressed by people in the Middle Ages is what caused, directly or indirectly, Anti-Semitism today.

Are you Anti-Semitic? And if you are...why?

And serious, well thought out answers only please, I don't want anything like "Jews are gay that's why". I am seriously curious why anti-semitism exists.

Heh. I'm a Jew AND I'm gay.

What now?


a non breeding jew, that fine by me. you get a gold star. now just don't go all invitro on my and spoil the happy moment.

Au contraire, who ever said I didn't intend on having children? I could do so if for no other reason to than to spite you.

De facto, I might even consider it my obligation to have children. With inane sycophants such as yourself polluting the gene pool, I should contribute what little I can. :)

Au contraire, who ever said I didn't intend on having children? I could do so if for no other reason to than to spite you.

Hehe.

Let me introduce you to my twins:

Spite and Malace.

Au contraire, who ever said I didn't intend on having children? I could do so if for no other reason to than to spite you.

Hehe.

Let me introduce you to my twins:

Spite and Malace.

Personally, I think Malice is a better name. :wink:

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

I was merely identifying the initial source. Of course there are going to be more contemporary factors, but I am looking at a things from a domino perspective.

But if the initial source is in the founding myths of Christianity, then it's inaccurate to say it started in the Middle Ages in Europe. In fact, it started with the founding of Christianity, in first-century Palestine.

I wouldn't say so, for two main reasons:
1.) The early Christians were, for the most part, Jews, so it doesn't stand to reason that they would be Anti-Semitic, especially since they still considered themselves to be Jewish.

They were Jews at the beginning of the movement, but as soon as the Church becomes a separate institution and they begin mass prostelitizing campaigns, they begin to dissassociate themselves from the Jews. This is only exacerbated by Roman persecutions (which further drives a wedge between the Christian and Jewish communities), and culminates with the succession of the first Christian Emperor of Rome, Constantine, who converted in the early 300s.

With Christians and Romans now becoming identified with each other, the role of "who killed Christ" had to be passed on to someone else. And it was: to the Jews.

In my opinion, therefore, the seeds of Christian anti-Semitism were indeed sown in the first few centuries CE, not in the Middle Ages.

2.) The Middle Ages was the height of Christian power, and it was then, in my opinion, that Anti-Semitism was allowed to develop and make a meaningful ripple in history... In other words, the attitudes expressed by people in the Middle Ages is what caused, directly or indirectly, Anti-Semitism today.

It may have been more wiggle room, but you said you were talking about "initial causes". The Middle Ages' anti-Semitism were largely based on expansions of late Antiquity anti-Semitism. Is it not proper, therefore, to attribute the "initial cause" to the earlier period?

Incidentally, I also disagree with your earlier statement that all anti-semitism today is caused by the Christian anti-Semitism of the Middle Ages. I think anti-Semitism is such a complex phenomenon that to attribute it to any one cause is already an oversimplification.

Au contraire, who ever said I didn't intend on having children? I could do so if for no other reason to than to spite you.

Hehe.

Let me introduce you to my twins:

Spite and Malace.

Personally, I think Malice is a better name. :wink:

Damn, I knew I spelled that wrong. Oh well, I never claimed to be a great speller.

Anti-Semitism stems from the Middle Ages. In Europe, most people were Christian, and the attitude that Jews killed Jesus was popular... it still is.

Even if Anti-Semites do not use that specific reason (especially if they're atheists like Hitler), that's what it all comes from.

I think that doesn't quite go far enough to explain modern anti-semitism. While those attitude may still be around, I think may modern day people who hold anti-semitic views perceive the Jewish people as an insular culture existing in the middle of a larger culture. They also think all Jews are rich and, with money, comes unfair power. The perception is that Jews use their money and power to only help other Jews and are somehow ungreatful to the larger culture that allows them to get that money and power in the first place.

I was merely identifying the initial source. Of course there are going to be more contemporary factors, but I am looking at a things from a domino perspective.

But if the initial source is in the founding myths of Christianity, then it's inaccurate to say it started in the Middle Ages in Europe. In fact, it started with the founding of Christianity, in first-century Palestine.

I wouldn't say so, for two main reasons:
1.) The early Christians were, for the most part, Jews, so it doesn't stand to reason that they would be Anti-Semitic, especially since they still considered themselves to be Jewish.

They were Jews at the beginning of the movement, but as soon as the Church becomes a separate institution and they begin mass prostelitizing campaigns, they begin to dissassociate themselves from the Jews. This is only exacerbated by Roman persecutions (which further drives a wedge between the Christian and Jewish communities), and culminates with the succession of the first Christian Emperor of Rome, Constantine, who converted in the early 300s.

With Christians and Romans now becoming identified with each other, the role of "who killed Christ" had to be passed on to someone else. And it was: to the Jews.

In my opinion, therefore, the seeds of Christian anti-Semitism were indeed sown in the first few centuries CE, not in the Middle Ages.

Hmm. Can't say I disagree.

2.) The Middle Ages was the height of Christian power, and it was then, in my opinion, that Anti-Semitism was allowed to develop and make a meaningful ripple in history... In other words, the attitudes expressed by people in the Middle Ages is what caused, directly or indirectly, Anti-Semitism today.

It may have been more wiggle room, but you said you were talking about "initial causes". The Middle Ages' anti-Semitism were largely based on expansions of late Antiquity anti-Semitism. Is it not proper, therefore, to attribute the "initial cause" to the earlier period?

Incidentally, I also disagree with your earlier statement that all anti-semitism today is caused by the Christian anti-Semitism of the Middle Ages. I think anti-Semitism is such a complex phenomenon that to attribute it to any one cause is already an oversimplification.

I stand corrected.

Are you Anti-Semitic? And if you are...why?

And serious, well thought out answers only please, I don't want anything like "Jews are gay that's why". I am seriously curious why anti-semitism exists.

Heh. I'm a Jew AND I'm gay.

What now?


a non breeding jew, that fine by me. you get a gold star. now just don't go all invitro on my and spoil the happy moment.

Au contraire, who ever said I didn't intend on having children? I could do so if for no other reason to than to spite you.

De facto, I might even consider it my obligation to have children. With inane sycophants such as yourself polluting the gene pool, I should contribute what little I can. :)

a sycophant? a self serving flatterer. come now i never flatter anyone. if your gonna call me names at least make them vaguely asssociatable to my action.